In article ,
says...
Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
they fill classes and keep teachers working.

.... and at least when I was going through college in the late '70s,
early 80s, the professors in those fields would tell the class that
their goal should be the "joy of learning" or "to become a well-rounded
and educated individual". Those of us in the engineering curriculum
would simply nod, fulfill the course requirements, and move on, somehow
knowing that there should have been more than a little bit of motivation
to find something that would provide value for someone in the future as
well.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...

That's a sore point with me as a language major. I have the "fluent in
English and Spanish" down, but never any of the rest of the requirements
for anything.

I could pick apples or work in a greenhouse for minimum wage. That's what
my degree is worth to me.

Oh, well, and I can watch "El Mariachi" with the subtitles off. That was
worth $20,000.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:10:45 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
only the increase in some investment account.

Had a boss many years ago that told me the same thing - "I want you
putting away 10% of your gross for the future - never to be tapped until
you retire". I said "I can't afford it". He said, "Her's a 3 % raise,
start there and add to it with every other raise and you'll be at 10% in a
few years". I did and it worked. Been preaching to the Chilun the same
message and they're listening and doing.

-Doug

Silvan wrote in
:

CW wrote:

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
working.

I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.

So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
Something like TGI Fridays or such.

He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
a BA in performing arts!

You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
"fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.

Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
the law. Her parents aught to sue the school, the proffesors and the
bank that loaned her the money.

Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a stupid
thing.

"Joe Willmann" wrote in message
.77...
Silvan wrote in
:

CW wrote:

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
working.

I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.

So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
Something like TGI Fridays or such.

He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
a BA in performing arts!

You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
"fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.

Not always. Most of my working life I have made a pretty good living off my
hobbies. I have more unusual hobbies though. Machine work, drafting,
electronics.


Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
the law. Her parents aught to sue the school, the proffesors and the
bank that loaned her the money.

I wouldn't go that far but I do think the counselor should have laid out the
facts about future employment in that field. I'm sure they didn't do that.
They are more concerned with filling classes than setting someone up to
succeed. Before someone jumps in and says it was her problem, she should
have known, there is a lot of difference in expecting someone to do
something for you and paying someone to do something for you. Your average
college kid doesn't know squat about the world. The counselor should have
some knowledge of market trends.


Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a stupid
thing.

"CW" wrote in
:


"Joe Willmann" wrote in message
.77...
Silvan wrote in
:

CW wrote:

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
should tell their students what their job prospects are going to
be in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep
teachers working.

I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
snip
Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a
stupid thing.


Actually I was joking about the sueing part. It is just part of our
culture. If we do something wrong/stupid/dangerous and get hut we want
to turn around and sue someone.

Silvan wrote:

Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can
earn in a given field are always for people who have made it through
the lean initial years too. That's a real deal breaker.

Often true. My son graduated from school and passed his certification tests.
The hospital where her worked said "that's nice." He left to go to another
hospital for $8 and hour more doing the same exact job. After two years he
left and started his own business in the field and now makes more in a year
than i make in about eight.


It's the same in a lot of fields. It's not at all unresonable to
hold back the money until people have gained enough experience to do
their jobs well, but the need to weather this low income period makes
any career change a difficult prospect. The only way to circumvent
it is to have experience enough to step in at a higher wage from the
outset, which is a pretty nasty catch 22.

Yes, unless you get lucky and can work in the new chosen field part time to
hone your skills and get some experience. That's a rarity though.



If changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is
difficult (virtually impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much
more difficult to maintain $20 or $30.

Yes, you'd amazed at the number of people that are stepping down from high
paid positions as the economy changes from manufacturing to service
oriented.


Changing careers is a nasty business. The only bright spot in all of
this is that my current industry is a very safe place to be. Like
you said to someone else, one has to find something to do which
people are willing to pay for. Trucking is that. I have job
security in spades, shovels and buckets.

Recenly read about the shortage of drivers. There are considerations to
lower the age for a CDL and allowing 18 year olds to drive under some
circumstances.



Oh, and walnut is the world's most perfect wood.

That bring up another thought. Didn't you say you hauled furniture? Any of
your stops make the stuff and have good scraps? In the building our
company is in there is a display house. I've found some nice cutoffs that
have been made into my outfeed table, a sewing table fo rmy wife, plywood
for jigs, etc. Dumpter diving pays.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

I knew what you meant. I should have indicated that.

"Joe Willmann" wrote in message Actually I was
joking about the sueing part. It is just part of our
culture. If we do something wrong/stupid/dangerous and get hut we want
to turn around and sue someone.

Joe Willmann writes:
Silvan wrote
CW wrote:

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
working.

I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.

So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
Something like TGI Fridays or such.

He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
a BA in performing arts!

You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
"fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.

Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
the law. Her parents ought to sue the school, the professors and the
bank that loaned her the money.

Actually she ought to sue her parents for letting her do such a stupid
thing.

There's always been a question about studying for degrees in non-
professional fields. I once had a young neighbor who was thinking
about giving up on the Army as a career and asked me what he might
be able to do with his history degree. I wasn't able to suggest
any single thing for him. Even my engineering degree hasn't proven
to be worth much once I got past 50.

At least the young ladies have motherhood and home management as
low-cost alternative careers. [Ducking for cover if any such
should read this!]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:23:26 -0800, CW wrote:


"Joe Willmann" wrote in message
.77...
Silvan wrote in
:

CW wrote:

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
working.

I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.

So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
Something like TGI Fridays or such.

He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
a BA in performing arts!

You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
"fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.

Not always. Most of my working life I have made a pretty good living off
my
hobbies. I have more unusual hobbies though. Machine work, drafting,
electronics.


Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
the law. Her parents aught to sue the school, the proffesors and the
bank that loaned her the money.

I wouldn't go that far but I do think the counselor should have laid out
the
facts about future employment in that field. I'm sure they didn't do
that.
They are more concerned with filling classes than setting someone up to
succeed. Before someone jumps in and says it was her problem, she should
have known, there is a lot of difference in expecting someone to do
something for you and paying someone to do something for you. Your
average
college kid doesn't know squat about the world. The counselor should have
some knowledge of market trends.


Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a stupid
thing.



University is rarely about learning a career, college is about learning a
career/trade. University is about learning how to think and be diverse. It
is generally irrelevant what you study unless you specialize, such as
engineering. Even then it's no sure fire way to end up working in the
chosen career field. Doctors, lawyers, most business professionals all
start with ANY undergraduate degree... even performing arts. After all,
what better way to start a career where you can absolutely say you know
how to present in front of a crowd with confidence. Sales anyone ? Once
you have your undergraduate degree, you have just begun. Then you either
embark on completing the process with a professional designation.... PEng,
DR, Lawyer, CA,etc... or you work hard to get an entry level job with
career prospects. The issue is the false sense that just because you have
an undergraduate degree you some how rate an immediate professional well
paying job.

The failing I see here is you friend with a degree in anthropology
obviously decided he was not interested in it or didn't want to put any
effort in it, believing he had apparently paid his dues and was therefore
due a great career. Driving a truck is choice made either because he
realized that's what he wants in life for one reason or another or it was
easier than anthropology which obviously would have meant other difficult
choices. Which after 6 years in higher education one would think would
have been realized without having to defer to a counselor who most likely
has less education or at most equivalent.






--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Mark & Juanita wrote:

Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
only the increase in some investment account.

Yes and no. There's more to the story than just how much I could make in my
industry. I have a nice niche job and what, for the industry, is an
absolutely obscene amount of home time. I can't earn more than this
without giving up another 30-40 hours a week, and I'd rather be poor and
have time to play in my shop and do stuff with my kids.

So, in the short term, I have no plans to raise my income. In the longer
term, my useful income is going to be going up quite dramatically once some
long-running obligations are dealt with. We're going to do without it just
like we have been for all these years, and that should build cash reserves
very quickly indeed.

From there, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we actually get there.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Yes, you'd amazed at the number of people that are stepping down from high
paid positions as the economy changes from manufacturing to service
oriented.

I wouldn't be amazed at all. I hear about it all the time. It makes my
prospects of getting out of trucking look that much more bleak too. I
guess going back for my CS degree is out.

people are willing to pay for. Trucking is that. I have job
security in spades, shovels and buckets.

Recenly read about the shortage of drivers. There are considerations to
lower the age for a CDL and allowing 18 year olds to drive under some
circumstances.

They already can, intrastate. There has been talk of letting them go
interstate, but I haven't heard anything substantive. It's a bad idea
IMHO. I once saw a dumbass kid dump the clutch and drive her Honda Civic
into a video store, knocking down half of the shelves in the process.
Luckily it was early in the morning, and there were few customers in the
store. No one got hurt. She was maybe 17. Do we want 18-year-olds
driving tractor trailers? O_o

That bring up another thought. Didn't you say you hauled furniture? Any
of your stops make the stuff and have good scraps?

I do, but no. Most of the stuff we haul these days, any scraps that are
being made are staying in the Far East. The last American manufacturer we
buy from has reached a point where they throw away a scrap after it's
13/16th" thick and 3/4" long.

Every jig in my shop is built from furniture factory plywood, but that
source dried up a long time ago I'm afraid.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Roger McIlmoyle wrote:

career prospects. The issue is the false sense that just because you have
an undergraduate degree you some how rate an immediate professional well
paying job.

I don't dispute that that is the case now. It hasn't always been that way,
however. I know a great many folks from my parents' generation who made
out quite well with nothing more than an undergraduate degree in basket
weaving.

Dad for instance. He makes substantially more than SWMBO and I put
together, all because he took one single class in COBOL in the early '70s.

Times have changed.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:16:13 GMT, "markm"
wrote:

They have a saying where I work, "you own your own employability". I've
also seen quite a few people laid off over the years but somehow the fit
survive. That is, the ones that I considered sharp land on their feed and
the majority of the others, well, deserved what they got. I too am a
software engineer but have to admit that it's highly overrated, any idiot
can do this **** but only a few of us have a clue.


Unfortunately, any idiot can't do this ****, but thinks he can. And,
if he's a good BSer, the management don't usually know the difference.
Course, I'm sure there are places where this isn't true, but...



As for out sourcing, we have been sending quite a few jobs to China and
India. And I have to admit the Indians work like dogs for dirt and many are
sharp. The Chinese on the other hand work like dogs for dirt J They IMHO
are over-educated idiots but they get paid 1/10 or less that myself and it
only takes 3 or 4 of them to keep up with me, you do the math. There is no
loyalty when it comes to money and we all reap what we sow. Something to
think about next time you drive your Tyodie over to Walmart to buy some
cheap chink **** because "you can't beat the prices". That was taken form
an interview I saw of laid off Walmart workers complaining about being
unemployed and jobs and goods from overseas. When asked if they still
shopped there they said "well yah, you can't beat the prices".


Those Toyotas are some of the best, most reliable cars made and aren't
exactly the caliber of what I'd guess you'd find at WallyWorld. If
the 'muricans back then realized they had to make a decent product,
those durn furriners wouldn't have taken their market away from them.
You'll note full size trucks are on the hit list next. Shame this
country can't be at the top of the auto quality list.

Renata


It's all driven by the consumer; you want high wages but cheap ****. So way
does anybody owe you anything and why should they be "loyal" to you?



I'm just glad that I'll probably, with luck, reach a comfortable retirement
before we have completely destroyed this wonderful country and it's economy.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
.. .
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
contribute down the road?

Renata

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 00:01:35 GMT, Mark & Juanita
wrote:
--snip--
What the !@#$ are you talking about here? Let's see, those without
children do subsidize those with children, or did you think people
without children don't pay property taxes that pay to educate children?
You really are saying that the government and others have first dibs on
the money I earn to be distributed as they please, then whatever is left
is mine.

--snip-

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:45:44 -0500, Renata wrote:

Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
contribute down the road?

Sure, but you see some of particular religious persuasions sending off 8
or 12 of the rugrats to the public schools. Kinda makes you think a
factor in property tax should be a school age headcount over the average
of two kids - as a "fairness" factor. After all, we're all about doing
"fair shares".

-Doug

Mark & Juanita wrote:



... and at least when I was going through college in the late '70s,
early 80s, the professors in those fields would tell the class that
their goal should be the "joy of learning" or "to become a well-rounded
and educated individual". Those of us in the engineering curriculum
would simply nod, fulfill the course requirements, and move on, somehow
knowing that there should have been more than a little bit of motivation
to find something that would provide value for someone in the future as
well.



That's the crime, at one time higher education was about learning. Now colleges
and universities are about getting jobs.

When the focus shifted one result was a major increase in graduates thinking
they learned everything they needed to learn in school. Usually it takes someone
with a little formal power, such as an employer, to break this thinking.
Unfortunately it's never completely broken. Try telling an engineer something
contrary to their book learning that you've learned from experience and personal
observation and unless you happen to hold an advanced degree they don't want to
believe you.

Another result was the teaching of the test and how to puke answers instead of
thinking. This is becoming rampant.





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

Renata wrote in
:

Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
contribute down the road?

Now do you think what goes on in public schools today is education? And
what makes you think that going to school will make a difference. I see
the long term state of affairs pretty bleakly.

About 25 years ago I got into software development. It was, and still
is fun and exciting to be able to create new and exciting things. I
looked into the future and dreamed about eventually buying a large sail
boat and doing my work from there using satalite communication and
networking. What I didn't take into account was that if I could do my
work from a boat in the south Pacific why can't my work be done from
India? Why pay me $50.00 or more per hour when there are people in
India willing to do the work for $5.00 per hour? I guess I was a little
short sighted. What does this have to do with anything? Well I have
been unemployeed for 2 years now.

So what does my unemployement have to do with your kids getting an
education? Lots. Pick a carear for your kids, any one will do. Now
ask youself if that job could be outsourced. There are very few that
can't. Accountant? That can be done anywhere that has access to the
company books which are all kept on computers. How about payroll,
admin, management, legal, tax, scheduling, and the list goes on and on.

Just about the only jobs that can't be outsourced are those that
actually require a human presence. Waitress, cook, carpenter, plumber,
bricklayer, police, jobs like that.

I see a future in America when a HUGE portion of the jobs that now
support middle class America slowly, of not so slowly just goes away.
What happens then with the rest of the jobs that provide middle class
America? When all the accountants, book keepers and computer
programmers can no longer find those kinds of jobs they have to start
taking jobs as carpenters, framers, plumbers and waiters. What happens
to those wages when there is a glut of people that want those jobs? The
wages go way down.

So what happens? Middle class America just goes away. So whay does
that have to do with educating your children? Lots. Don't waste your
time or money. Let them play. They aren't going to be able to find
jobs when they grow up so why waste their time in school.

There are two primary political parties, Republicans and Democrats. The
Democrats would rather give me welfare check than a job and the
Republicans would rather give someone in India a job and make the price
of stock go up. Oh and what should I do? The software engineer with a
job. I should retrain into something other field.

So this week I am aplying for entry level carpenter. Two years ago I
made $110,000. This year I am hoping for $10.00 per hour.

It may not have hit your area yet but around here, the carpentry jobs are
being taken up by Mexicans. Illegal are preferred as they have no one to
bitch to about the lack of overtime pay, ect. The Bush alien import plan
should help this trend right along.

"Joe Willmann" wrote in message
. 77...
Renata wrote in
:

Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
contribute down the road?

Now do you think what goes on in public schools today is education? And
what makes you think that going to school will make a difference. I see
the long term state of affairs pretty bleakly.

About 25 years ago I got into software development. It was, and still
is fun and exciting to be able to create new and exciting things. I
looked into the future and dreamed about eventually buying a large sail
boat and doing my work from there using satalite communication and
networking. What I didn't take into account was that if I could do my
work from a boat in the south Pacific why can't my work be done from
India? Why pay me $50.00 or more per hour when there are people in
India willing to do the work for $5.00 per hour? I guess I was a little
short sighted. What does this have to do with anything? Well I have
been unemployeed for 2 years now.

So what does my unemployement have to do with your kids getting an
education? Lots. Pick a carear for your kids, any one will do. Now
ask youself if that job could be outsourced. There are very few that
can't. Accountant? That can be done anywhere that has access to the
company books which are all kept on computers. How about payroll,
admin, management, legal, tax, scheduling, and the list goes on and on.

Just about the only jobs that can't be outsourced are those that
actually require a human presence. Waitress, cook, carpenter, plumber,
bricklayer, police, jobs like that.

I see a future in America when a HUGE portion of the jobs that now
support middle class America slowly, of not so slowly just goes away.
What happens then with the rest of the jobs that provide middle class
America? When all the accountants, book keepers and computer
programmers can no longer find those kinds of jobs they have to start
taking jobs as carpenters, framers, plumbers and waiters. What happens
to those wages when there is a glut of people that want those jobs? The
wages go way down.

So what happens? Middle class America just goes away. So whay does
that have to do with educating your children? Lots. Don't waste your
time or money. Let them play. They aren't going to be able to find
jobs when they grow up so why waste their time in school.

There are two primary political parties, Republicans and Democrats. The
Democrats would rather give me welfare check than a job and the
Republicans would rather give someone in India a job and make the price
of stock go up. Oh and what should I do? The software engineer with a
job. I should retrain into something other field.

So this week I am aplying for entry level carpenter. Two years ago I
made $110,000. This year I am hoping for $10.00 per hour.

In article ,
says...


Mark & Juanita wrote:



... and at least when I was going through college in the late '70s,
early 80s, the professors in those fields would tell the class that
their goal should be the "joy of learning" or "to become a well-rounded
and educated individual". Those of us in the engineering curriculum
would simply nod, fulfill the course requirements, and move on, somehow
knowing that there should have been more than a little bit of motivation
to find something that would provide value for someone in the future as
well.



That's the crime, at one time higher education was about learning. Now colleges
and universities are about getting jobs.


... and what were the people who left college after "the learning"
supposed to do? There needs to be a balance of learning for learning's
sake as well as learning for the purpose of providing the student a
future beyond college.

When the focus shifted one result was a major increase in graduates thinking
they learned everything they needed to learn in school. Usually it takes someone
with a little formal power, such as an employer, to break this thinking.
Unfortunately it's never completely broken. Try telling an engineer something
contrary to their book learning that you've learned from experience and personal
observation and unless you happen to hold an advanced degree they don't want to
believe you.


... in most cases, the good engineers will listen to experience.
OTOH, I have seen people "with experience" trying to tell engineers how
things should be, the problem is that those "experienced" people did not
see the big picture, in many cases, their experienced opinion would work
in a single, isolated instance, but the problem being solved required a
solution that could maintain operability in even the 3 to 5 sigma
operating conditions.


Another result was the teaching of the test and how to puke answers instead of
thinking. This is becoming rampant.



When I was in engineering school, the arts & sciences classes were
those that "taught the test" (in a number of instances, in other
instances they at least told you where the answers were to be found.
Most of the engineering tests I took were tests where the professor felt
that the test itself should be a "learning experience" That typically
meant that whatever you learned during the coursework leading up to the
test, and all of the homework problems you had worked were useless, the
test was going to be about something completely different.

The other "fun" classes were those where it seemed that the pre-
requisite for the course was a full and complete working knowledge of
all the material to be covered in the class.




--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:50:48 -0500, Silvan
wrote:

I have been following this thread and would like your comment and
suggestions how to prepare your daughter for her future career. Let
say she will be attending high school this Fall. Should she targets
for an engineering, Social study, IT, CPA, Medical or others career?

Thanks


My opinion only. What does she enjoy? What does she absolutely not
like? That has to be considered in her decision as well as
employability -- it won't do any good to have a medical degree if she
does not (to the point of despise) working with biological organisms.

That said, considerations to take into account:
1. Medical -- despite all of the outsourcing going on, the people in
this country are going to get sick and need care. In addition, the
population (on average, due to the baby boom) is also aging, so more
medical professionals will be needed for quite some time.
2. Engineering: The primary job of a good engineering school is to
teach students to think and solve problems. As a person with an EE
degree, I find myself doing work in numerous fields. However, one must
not limit oneself to thinking that your career will be spent solely
designing or doing "turn the crank" engineering work -- that, at least
from what I have seen, tends to limit career opportunities and also in
the extreme case, I've seen people who insisted on remaining "circuit
designers" laid off because that was all they knew, their skills did not
keep up with technology, and they were not competitive with new-hires.
This does not imply that engineers have to move into management to
continue career growth, but leadership in a technical sense is a
requirement for continued career growth.
3. IT: I don't know -- you've seen the discussions regarding outsourcing
of IT support. IT management is probably a potential employment source
and there are people who will absolutely have to be in this country to
do some support functions, but this will probably not be a growth
opportunity for a while.
4. A&S degrees (Social studies, etc.) I cannot really comment one way or
another on this subject -- I just don't have any good data points.


Mark & Juanita wrote:

Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
only the increase in some investment account.

Yes and no. There's more to the story than just how much I could make in my
industry. I have a nice niche job and what, for the industry, is an
absolutely obscene amount of home time. I can't earn more than this
without giving up another 30-40 hours a week, and I'd rather be poor and
have time to play in my shop and do stuff with my kids.

So, in the short term, I have no plans to raise my income. In the longer
term, my useful income is going to be going up quite dramatically once some
long-running obligations are dealt with. We're going to do without it just
like we have been for all these years, and that should build cash reserves
very quickly indeed.

From there, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we actually get there.



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Mark & Juanita wrote in message ws.com...
In article ,
says...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:50:48 -0500, Silvan
wrote:

I have been following this thread and would like your comment and
suggestions how to prepare your daughter for her future career. Let
say she will be attending high school this Fall. Should she targets
for an engineering, Social study, IT, CPA, Medical or others career?

Thanks


My opinion only. What does she enjoy? What does she absolutely not
like? That has to be considered in her decision as well as
employability -- it won't do any good to have a medical degree if she
does not (to the point of despise) working with biological organisms.

That said, considerations to take into account:
1. Medical -- despite all of the outsourcing going on, the people in
this country are going to get sick and need care. In addition, the
population (on average, due to the baby boom) is also aging, so more
medical professionals will be needed for quite some time.
2. Engineering: The primary job of a good engineering school is to
teach students to think and solve problems. As a person with an EE
degree, I find myself doing work in numerous fields. However, one must
not limit oneself to thinking that your career will be spent solely
designing or doing "turn the crank" engineering work -- that, at least
from what I have seen, tends to limit career opportunities and also in
the extreme case, I've seen people who insisted on remaining "circuit
designers" laid off because that was all they knew, their skills did not
keep up with technology, and they were not competitive with new-hires.
This does not imply that engineers have to move into management to
continue career growth, but leadership in a technical sense is a
requirement for continued career growth.
3. IT: I don't know -- you've seen the discussions regarding outsourcing
of IT support. IT management is probably a potential employment source
and there are people who will absolutely have to be in this country to
do some support functions, but this will probably not be a growth
opportunity for a while.
4. A&S degrees (Social studies, etc.) I cannot really comment one way or
another on this subject -- I just don't have any good data points.

You should add teaching to the list. I know, many have heard the Union
propaganda that teachers don't make enough, but that is (in many
areas) an outdated view. In Pennsylvania (which is rated 14th in
teacher salaries) the average teacher salary is $59,000 and the
average work year is 187 days. In western Pennsylvania the starting
salary with a BS or BA is around $34,000 with substantial raises until
the 15th to 19th year (depending on the local district) when you hit
an average of $78,000. This is in addition to a great retirement
package, medical and other benefits as well as about the most job
security you can have. Then consider the fact that in the US we bulked
up on teachers in 1968 to 1976 as the bulk of the original baby boom
passed through (and the public finally accepted hiring enough teachers
to support all the kids). These folks have been hitting retirement and
will continue to do so for a number of years causing a shortage.
Combined with the 3rd wave as baby boomers kids are now starting to
have kids and the demand for small class sizes (PA's average teacher
to student ratio is now 1 to 16)and the demand for teachers should
continue for a number of years. Unfortunately, like many such "high
demand" careers, there is always the possibility that by the time
someone who is currently in high school gets through college the
demand may have been satiated (i.e. like all those poor kids who
finished 4 years of college with an EE degree in the last year or
two).

Dave Hall

Well, your probably right, bout the toy cars. Just one of my pet peaves,
Abu in his Crayola is second only to Sally in her Stupidrue and Sherie in
her Subdivision. Get the furk out of my way, beemerboy coming through.

"Renata" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:16:13 GMT, "markm"
wrote:

They have a saying where I work, "you own your own employability". I've
also seen quite a few people laid off over the years but somehow the fit
survive. That is, the ones that I considered sharp land on their feed
and
the majority of the others, well, deserved what they got. I too am a
software engineer but have to admit that it's highly overrated, any idiot
can do this **** but only a few of us have a clue.


Unfortunately, any idiot can't do this ****, but thinks he can. And,
if he's a good BSer, the management don't usually know the difference.
Course, I'm sure there are places where this isn't true, but...



As for out sourcing, we have been sending quite a few jobs to China and
India. And I have to admit the Indians work like dogs for dirt and many
are
sharp. The Chinese on the other hand work like dogs for dirt J They
IMHO
are over-educated idiots but they get paid 1/10 or less that myself and
it
only takes 3 or 4 of them to keep up with me, you do the math. There is
no
loyalty when it comes to money and we all reap what we sow. Something to
think about next time you drive your Tyodie over to Walmart to buy some
cheap chink **** because "you can't beat the prices". That was taken
form
an interview I saw of laid off Walmart workers complaining about being
unemployed and jobs and goods from overseas. When asked if they still
shopped there they said "well yah, you can't beat the prices".


Those Toyotas are some of the best, most reliable cars made and aren't
exactly the caliber of what I'd guess you'd find at WallyWorld. If
the 'muricans back then realized they had to make a decent product,
those durn furriners wouldn't have taken their market away from them.
You'll note full size trucks are on the hit list next. Shame this
country can't be at the top of the auto quality list.

Renata


It's all driven by the consumer; you want high wages but cheap ****. So
way
does anybody owe you anything and why should they be "loyal" to you?



I'm just glad that I'll probably, with luck, reach a comfortable
retirement
before we have completely destroyed this wonderful country and it's
economy.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
.. .
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!