Would be IF we could get the lawyers away from it.


On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:22:40 PST, (Everett
M. Greene) wrote:

"Henry Bibb" writes:
"Carver33" wrote
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:47:10 -0700, WD wrote:
Mark wrote:

Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal
immigration are until it's your job their **** canning.

Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
jobs had gone?

Hell, they wouldn't ship the jobs overseas if all of the employees
would go to the owners and offer to work for ten cents on the dollar.

Yes, they would, because the local workers would still be covered by
wage & hour rules, OSHA, things like that. The foreigners aren't.

And there's the medical care mess in the USofA. Better, faster,
cheaper is the mantra of most technology advances, but in
health care it seems to be maybe better, maybe faster, but you
can damn well bet it ain't gonna be cheaper.

On 06 Feb 2004 15:36:45 GMT, Brian Elfert wrote:

Pretty soon,
one ticket machine will take an entire wall to include all the
instructions in different languages.

Brian Elfert


nothing a little well written software can't take care of.

we'd all be richer for it.

In article ,
Unisaw A100 writes:
DeWalt is one thing but Jet has pretty much built their line
on the back of the already available Delta design. I
suppose you could make a case-by-case argument but let's
face it, they only backwards engineered the Delta line.

I think it's worth pointing out that, unlike Delta, Jet was
no a tool manufacturer. If I'm not mistaken, Jet didn't have
any manufacturing facilities until their acquisition of Powermatic.
For that matter, did Jet aquire Powermatic, or was it their
parent corporation (whose not-so-memorable name I forget)?


I'm thinking Jet is turning their pockets inside out right
now and looking at all available avenues to buy the Penthair
Machinery ConGlomCo. It would make them instant players in

Hmmm..... I'm not so sure. Would it really be in their
best financial interest? Sure, I can see a definite benefit.
But would that benefit be worth the cost? Would it be like
Ford buying Chrysler or Daimler-Benz (sp?) buying Chrysler?

This would be no different than Delta and Rockwell buying up
Walker-Turner, Crescent, Red Star and all the other great
woodworking machinery makers that have fallen by the wayside
but had/have made Delta what it was once upon a time.

Well, I think it would be a little different. Again, Jet is
an importer/marketer of machinery, not a manufacturer. Do they
want to go that direction? Sometimes corporations do best sticking
to what they do best, so to speak.

UA100, off to make popcorn and scrunching his ass down in
the big comfy chair...

I think I'll wait for it to come out on video.

--
Jeff Thunder
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthunder at math dot niu dot edu

I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Phisherman wrote:

I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Hmm. Ok, but that doesn't sound like much of a plan. I developed
software for over 40 years (see
http://www.iedu.com/mrd/mrd_self.html and
http://www.iedu.com/mrd/philips.txt for an addendum) and opted
not to compete with Indian labor rates. We both need to do
/something/ productive with our lives!

I've always loved woodworking; and I've had an increasing
interest in alternative energy technologies since the early 70's
so I decided to produce solar heating panels (browse around at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto) and fill in with contract CNC work
for local cabinet shops (who don't have terribly strong
software/computer skills) to keep my navel separated from my
backbone. I don't know if the plan is a good one or not - but I
think it'll work better than watching my saving be eaten up by
the inflation that the Bush administration set us all up to
experience over the next ten years.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
C links at http://www.iedu.com/c
Read my lips: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 03:12:23 GMT, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

In article ,
says...
... snip
President Bush has done a lot of crap that I dislike (too much to list
here) but the issue that pushes me over the edge is this BS of
"legalizing" the illegal aliens in a pathetic, transparent attempt to
pander for votes. He's going to need them because I'm going to vote
for a Democrat for the first time.


You know, I understand your frustration. But, much as I despise what
the Republicrat wing of the Republican party has done, I can't imagine
having somebody like Dean or Kerry (who voted to cancel the F-15, the F-
14, the Patriot missile system, the Aegis missile cruiser system, cut
funds to the F-16, the Tomahawk missile system -- i.e. every major
defense system in our inventory) in charge of our defense. Especially
given the current environment with Al Queada continuing to plan
additional attacks on the US.

Why, all we have to do is ignore them, pull all American interests,
public and private, back home, and forcibly convert the entire nation
to Islam and then the poor misunderstood peaceful practitioners of
Islam will leave us alone.

Well, actually, I suspect they'd go after someone else, possibly the
UK or Russia, maybe even Japan.

Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

While I was a pretty much in the same boat as you. I chose to retire and
get out while the getting out was good back in 1995. I was in the
Automotive profession for 22 years. I has always been said that the
Automotive profession is a young mans profession. I always thought you
needed to be young to be able to put up with the problems that arise in the
Automotive industry. Having been a service sales manager at a large GM
dealership, making excuses for the quality problems of the American built
car to your customer makes you old quick. I finally realized that a young
mans profession is one that a young man with out a family or obligations
can do pretty good in. Fortunately I worked the automotive system and got
my rewards. I chose to retire not having to work any more at 40. 2 years
later I started my own business and while my profits are there every year,
they come no where near what I was making before retiring. While you hate
Bush for telling you that the solution is to change professions, I did not
have to wait for him to tell me this. I saw the writing on the wall.

but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change professions."

Because you quoted that remark, can you lead me to where I can find where or
when he said that?

I've never heard and I'd like to know for sure.


"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Phisherman wrote in
:

I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Well I am an unemployeed software engineer. Two years since I was laid
off. I have had 9 weeks of work during that time. Luckily my wife is
well employeed.

Two years ago I made $110K. I would gladly work for half today. I
woul;d change my vote to if I thought it would make a difference.
Remember it was Clinton that signed NAFTA.

It isn't like I make great buggy whips. There is still a demand for
what I do. Unfortunately I think it is the drive for quarterly profits
that is the biggest cause of the problem. The thing with outsourcing is
it is a short sighted solution. Just like chasing quartly profit. The
place I used to work was a high tech company that makes electronics.
The ideas that turn into products come from people in the company. Most
of them come from the engineers, not marketing. What happens when all
of the engineering is outsourced? How thinks up, "if this works and I
make this change then we can sell this to another market"? Nobody.
That's who.

The company I used to work for was divided up something like this.
10% Admin (like secretaries, book keepers, marketing, support etc.)
10% Management
40% Manufacturing
40% Engineering

How does it look today?
2% Manufacturing
30% Engineering
20% Management
48% Admin

How do the actual numbers look?
Before
2000 engineers, 2000 Manufacturing, 500 Admin and 500 Management for a
total of 5000 people.

Now it has downsized by about 20% for a total of 4000 of which 80 are
manufacturing, 1200 engineers, 800 Managers and 1920 admin and support.
The company grew the marketing, and sales while cutting engineering and
manufacturing. Then naturally because the more work is out sourced they
need more managers to handle the out sourced engineering.

The numbers are estimates.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

So therefore it is YOUR choice to be unemployed at your profession that to
change careers. WTF does Bush have to do with it all?

My first choices for a profession we 1) Pope 2) Queen of England. Both
jobs were filled so I became a manger instead. Do you think I should have
waited for an opening? You can't make much money selling things people just
don't want or need no matter how good we think they are. Basic fact of
capitalism.

Sorry, but when I hear people bitch that "I want to be a (fill in chose
profession) but it does not pay enough to make a living." I don't fee a tiny
bit sorry for them. Do something people are willing to pay for.
Ed

That's it, make the world change!

How dare they try to tell you what to do - don't they know it's your job to
tell them?

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.

-Bruce

http://www.nrao.edu



"Phisherman" wrote in message
...

I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!






-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

So, that want ad you wrote in fine print on the bathroom wall didn't bring
any applicants, right? Or maybe it was that $10.00 per day pay rate.
"BruceR" wrote in message
...
Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.

-Bruce

http://www.nrao.edu



"Phisherman" wrote in message
...

I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!






-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Ed Pawlowski writes:

My first choices for a profession we 1) Pope 2) Queen of England. Both
jobs were filled so I became a manger instead.

Didja bring your dog with you?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

My first choices: I wanted to be the Saint; I wanted to be retired.

Never was ANY kind of saint and I'm of retirement age and wouldn't retire even
if I could affod it.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

BruceR wrote:
Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.

-Bruce

http://www.nrao.edu

Where is "here"? Charlottesville VA, Green Bank WV, Socorro NM, Tucson AZ,
or somewhere else?

-- Mark

Silvan wrote:

I guess it's time to be grateful I have a job, and stop worrying that
I'm wasting my education. Nobody's looking to hire anyone with an
education in anything other than business administration, and I can't
imagine anything more mind numbing.

I know people in the Washington DC area who have devoted their entire
working lives to national and international standards development.
Important but IMO jam-a-chisel-in-your-leg-to-stay-awake boring.

-- Mark

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...
Silvan wrote:

I guess it's time to be grateful I have a job, and stop worrying that
I'm wasting my education. Nobody's looking to hire anyone with an
education in anything other than business administration, and I can't
imagine anything more mind numbing.

Let's be glad they're not calling it "Business Management"...
I've changed my mind about educating my kids. They are getting
a trade first. THEN, if they want, they can go to Uni.

I know people in the Washington DC area who have devoted their entire
working lives to national and international standards development.
Important but IMO jam-a-chisel-in-your-leg-to-stay-awake boring.

standard size chisel, I presume?
d&r


--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
am

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:12:01 -0700, CW wrote
(in message ):

So, that want ad you wrote in fine print on the bathroom wall didn't bring
any applicants, right? Or maybe it was that $10.00 per day pay rate.
"BruceR" wrote in message
...

Heh! :^)

Most of the resumes we get from people who consider themselves "programmers"
say either they can "program" Windows or can "program" the internet....


-Bruce

"BruceR" wrote in message
...
Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.

-Bruce

http://www.nrao.edu

Those job descriptions (2) look a lot more like career astronomers than
computer
programmers to me... Can't say as that indicates a general indication of a
shortage
of computer programmers.

"Candidates must possess knowledge of experimental astronomy, especially
interferometry,
or sufficient math and physics to quickly learn, at a detailed level, the
instrumental aspects
of the EVLA radio telescope..."

"Bruce" wrote in message
. ..

can "program" the internet....

You actually got a resume from Al Gore?

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:04:11 -0700, Wes Stewart
wrote:

ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
for 16 years.

How do you get along with the in laws?

In article ,
says...

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
s.com...
In article ,
says...

.... snip

Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay
their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all
know
more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old
pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in
state
benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations
assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)


You are attributing attitudes and comments to me that I never said nor
implied.

" There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries."

This is your original post. Note that it is loaded with generalizations and
contains very little evidence.


You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you?
California printed their last government election ballots in something
on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot
of assimilation going on there, does there? Bilingual education has,
instead of becoming a means of assimilating students, a means of
separating them and teaching purely in Spanish rather than bringing them
up to speed and getting them immersed in the English language. No
generalization there. There are nearly daily stories in the news in
which one ethnic community raises some issue or other about how they are
being "marginalized" or "ignored". We daily have people crossing the
border to have babies that become US citizens and entitle the parents to
various government subsidies and largess. There is a High School in San
Diego that has a significant number of illegal border crossers as
students who come to school during the day and return to Mexico in the
evening. The school district gets $5400 per year per student from the
taxpayers of the state of California to educate citizens of another
country.

In article ,
says...
David Hall wrote:

"you owe me" seems to be the low
skilled low educated american's mantra.

Uh, the tax code is replete with welfare programs that require higher
levels of income to qualify.

Even in the middle it is a virtual non-stop "you owe me."

I'm sure if this off topic discussion went on and you were to reveal
your deductions and examined the services you received, your argument
would be that they were owed to you.


This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
quite irritating. It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
government's first, and mine second. It indicates that I should be
grateful for what the government lets me take home after it (the
government) has decided how much of my time is owed it first.

On 05 Feb 2004 08:53:41 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

The true problem with job loss comes with corporations that have no loyalty to
anything but money, and even then have an ability only to do short term
planning: many are the type known as multi-national, but too many companies
exporting jobs are plain, ol' American. It isn't the loss of true bottom end
jobs that we bemoan and that we're missing.


Truer words were never said Charlie - And the immigration problem is a
direct result of complicity between big government and big business to
keep your wages low - supply and demand baby - just like the war on
drugs, it's all a sham. Yeah that taco is getting more expensive by
the minute. But corporate greed is only starting to rear it's ugly
head - next thing to look for is outsourcing of higher paying jobs to
India and similar third world countries by the IBM's and the financial
institutions; this is going on right now behind our backs while the
media concentrates it's news on nonexistent WMD's.
We're slowly but surely all getting dragged down to the lowest common
denominator where we'll be competing directly with Chinese peasants
for work - I say we should stop this global madness now before it's
too late. I hope I haven't offended any executive types out there, but
your days are numbered too.

Silvan wrote:

The only jobs that pay in the $15 range are trucking
related. Everything else is in a sort of bell curve with minimum
wage on the bottom, and $10 an hour on top. Most of the jobs fall
into the $7 range, but the curve is a little heavier on the $5 end
than the $10 end.

Most jobs? Or most jobs you are qualified for? Or most jobs you'd
consider? If you have some training in the right trade or profession, you
can make much more. Auto mechanics, welder, nurses, respiratory therapists,
state police, all make much more than $15. Your problem is that you'd have
to take a year or two to learn what is needed in these careers. Not easily
done when trying to support a family.



Plus, I like it here. I have roots. I have a house. I'm not
moving. In today's economy, you can't make any money unless you're
willing to chase the job. Take a job in Some Yonder, and wait for
them to move you to Some Other Yonder.

Forced relocation sucks. I think it has a lot to do with today's
culture where nobody knows who his neighbors are, or cares.

I relocated once. Glad I did, but don't ever want to do it again. I do know
people that have been Nomads for their entire working career, moving every
two or three years. Not for me. It does limit your choices for employment
though. .
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

In article m,
says...
You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you?
California printed their last government election ballots in something
on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot
of assimilation going on there, does there? Bilingual education has,
instead of becoming a means of assimilating students, a means of
separating them and teaching purely in Spanish rather than bringing them
up to speed and getting them immersed in the English language. No
generalization there. There are nearly daily stories in the news in
which one ethnic community raises some issue or other about how they are
being "marginalized" or "ignored".

Wow! Something we agree on :-).

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Looking at the ONLY posting for a s/w type on your web site I'd guess
that when the qualifications include:

"Preference will be given to candidates who possess a M.Sc. or Ph.D.
in Astronomy with a thesis topic in the area of Aperture Synthesis or
VLBI radio astronomy."

and

"Advanced or working knowledge of the following: aperture synthesis
radio astronomy, data reduction algorithms and techniques, programming
for scientific applications, Fourier imaging."

make the eye of the needle pretty small. These don't describe the
typical s/w engineer.

There may be a few of those folks around but they may not be interested
in re-locating to central NM at the price you're willing to pay.

RB

BruceR wrote:
Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.

-Bruce

http://www.nrao.edu



"Phisherman" wrote in message
...

I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!







-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

They have a saying where I work, "you own your own employability". I've
also seen quite a few people laid off over the years but somehow the fit
survive. That is, the ones that I considered sharp land on their feed and
the majority of the others, well, deserved what they got. I too am a
software engineer but have to admit that it's highly overrated, any idiot
can do this **** but only a few of us have a clue.



As for out sourcing, we have been sending quite a few jobs to China and
India. And I have to admit the Indians work like dogs for dirt and many are
sharp. The Chinese on the other hand work like dogs for dirt J They IMHO
are over-educated idiots but they get paid 1/10 or less that myself and it
only takes 3 or 4 of them to keep up with me, you do the math. There is no
loyalty when it comes to money and we all reap what we sow. Something to
think about next time you drive your Tyodie over to Walmart to buy some
cheap chink **** because "you can't beat the prices". That was taken form
an interview I saw of laid off Walmart workers complaining about being
unemployed and jobs and goods from overseas. When asked if they still
shopped there they said "well yah, you can't beat the prices".



It's all driven by the consumer; you want high wages but cheap ****. So way
does anybody owe you anything and why should they be "loyal" to you?



I'm just glad that I'll probably, with luck, reach a comfortable retirement
before we have completely destroyed this wonderful country and it's economy.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!

Mark & Juanita writes:


This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
quite irritating. It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
government's first, and mine second.

Not just income tax. Try not paying your property taxes for a few years. Bingo!
Auction block time, except I think smaller towns do it from the courthouse
steps.

You really, really don't own a thing. You rent it from the government,
whichever government entity is in charge of a particular segment.

Charlie Self
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first." Mark Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Literacy used to be a requirement for citizenship - so the new citizen could
understand the ballot.

You _DO_ have to be a citizen to vote, most places....

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
s.com...

You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you?
California printed their last government election ballots in something
on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot
of assimilation going on there, does there?

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:33:17 -0700, Mark Jerde wrote
(in message ):

BruceR wrote:
Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.

-Bruce

http://www.nrao.edu

Where is "here"? Charlottesville VA, Green Bank WV, Socorro NM, Tucson AZ,
or somewhere else?

-- Mark



We have two here in Socorro, had three at one time (programming staff of 6)
-Bruce

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:25:29 -0500, RB wrote:

Looking at the ONLY posting for a s/w type on your web site I'd guess
that when the qualifications include:

"Preference will be given to candidates who possess a M.Sc. or Ph.D.
in Astronomy with a thesis topic in the area of Aperture Synthesis or
VLBI radio astronomy."

and

"Advanced or working knowledge of the following: aperture synthesis
radio astronomy, data reduction algorithms and techniques, programming
for scientific applications, Fourier imaging."

make the eye of the needle pretty small. These don't describe the
typical s/w engineer.

There may be a few of those folks around but they may not be interested
in re-locating to central NM at the price you're willing to pay.


These companies have long lists of requirements. I know they really
want someone young, but can't say that (I'm over 40). What's so
strange is that they want 5 years Oracle, 3 years C++, 3 years project
managment, 4 years Java, 2 years Unix scripting--I have all of these,
then they add "Must be fluent in English and Spanish." Others are
looking for a minority, I guess they can pay an Afro-American female
much less money, and she would be happy with it and the company will
make their quota. Plus, the days are long gone when a company will
help with relocation.

In article ,
says...
Mark & Juanita wrote:

"you owe me" seems to be the low
skilled low educated american's mantra.

Uh, the tax code is replete with welfare programs that require higher
levels of income to qualify.

Even in the middle it is a virtual non-stop "you owe me."

I'm sure if this off topic discussion went on and you were to reveal
your deductions and examined the services you received, your argument
would be that they were owed to you.


This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
quite irritating.

You want services for nothing? When you eat a meal at a restaurant, do
you pay for it or do you say that you have paid enough money for meals
lately and that you don't feel like paying? Or perhaps you want your
group to not pay as much as others because you're special or powerful?


Did I say that people should be paying *no* taxes? Your analogy is
complete non-sequitor.


It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
government's first, and mine second.

What? You bespeak talk radio twaddle.


So you do believe that the government should decide what of your
income you get to keep.

Welfare is unearned income and you can call them subsidies, deductions,
exclusions, shelters, credits or whatever you want but they are the
same. Sorry if that isn't PC.


How is letting me keep income *I* have earned somehow "unearned
income"? I guess it's unearned by those who aren't getting a larger
share of my income.

It indicates that I should be
grateful for what the government lets me take home after it (the
government) has decided how much of my time is owed it first.

Yeah, I suppose you believe that people without homes should subsidize
those with and that people without children should subsidize those with,
etc., etc. ad infinitum. You can play word games, but what it comes down
to is you want some one else to pay for your share.


What the !@#$ are you talking about here? Let's see, those without
children do subsidize those with children, or did you think people
without children don't pay property taxes that pay to educate children?
You really are saying that the government and others have first dibs on
the money I earn to be distributed as they please, then whatever is left
is mine.

Lo and behold, your indignation is just restated "you owe me." The
fellow who made that statement ascribed it to low skilled, low education
Americans. Does that accurately describe you?


No, my indignation is with your attitude that *I* owe you. And if
perchance I spend my money in some way that allows a deduction, this is
somehow wrong in your eyes, somebody else is somehow "subsidizing" me.
Your attitude is equivalent to the idea that because I am not earning
$1M per year, this means I am subsidizing my company, rather than
knowing what I am going to earn and setting my spending accordingly.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Most jobs? Or most jobs you are qualified for? Or most jobs you'd
consider?

All of the above? I wasn't being very scientific in my investigation,
so I can't give hard and fast statistics.

Your problem is that you'd have to take a year or two to learn what is
needed in these careers. Not easily done when trying to support a family.

Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can earn in a
given field are always for people who have made it through the lean initial
years too. That's a real deal breaker. I was looking seriously at law
enforcement until I learned that rookie cops make the same as experienced
cashiers at Wal-Mart.

It's the same in a lot of fields. It's not at all unresonable to hold back
the money until people have gained enough experience to do their jobs well,
but the need to weather this low income period makes any career change a
difficult prospect. The only way to circumvent it is to have experience
enough to step in at a higher wage from the outset, which is a pretty nasty
catch 22.

This is one reason why I view income as a trap. I could do *much* better
than $15 an hour in trucking already, but I don't like my trade very much,
and I don't want to limit my options by raising my income too high.

What's that? "Limit your options by raising your income too high? Are you
insane?" No, not at all. I have proven that the more I make, the more
ways I find to obligate myself to maintaining that level of income. If
changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is difficult (virtually
impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much more difficult to maintain
$20 or $30.

For that matter, when I started in *this* business, I was earning *far* less
than I could afford to live on today. At the time, it was a step up.
Today, it would be an enormous step down.

Changing careers is a nasty business. The only bright spot in all of this
is that my current industry is a very safe place to be. Like you said to
someone else, one has to find something to do which people are willing to
pay for. Trucking is that. I have job security in spades, shovels and
buckets.

I relocated once. Glad I did, but don't ever want to do it again. I do
know people that have been Nomads for their entire working career, moving
every
two or three years. Not for me. It does limit your choices for employment
though. .

Yes it does, but that's for each person to decide. I know nomads who earn a
bazillion dollars a year, and have a fleet of Jaguars. If that's what they
want, more power to them. Personally, I put more stock in being around to
see all the landscape trees I planted grow to maturity.

I would also add "letting my kids stay with their friends" but that's
something I can't control. We are still here, but all of their friends
have been the children of nomads. I've had to watch my daughter lose her
best friend three times now, and she's only in first grade. My son just
doesn't *have* friends anymore, since nobody can be expected to be here six
months from now. I can hardly blame him, really, but it's a sad thing to
see.

Oh, and walnut is the world's most perfect wood.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Phisherman wrote:

then they add "Must be fluent in English and Spanish." Others are

That's a sore point with me as a language major. I have the "fluent in
English and Spanish" down, but never any of the rest of the requirements
for anything.

I could pick apples or work in a greenhouse for minimum wage. That's what
my degree is worth to me.

Oh, well, and I can watch "El Mariachi" with the subtitles off. That was
worth $20,000.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
they fill classes and keep teachers working.
"Silvan" wrote in message
...

That's a sore point with me as a language major. I have the "fluent in
English and Spanish" down, but never any of the rest of the requirements
for anything.

I could pick apples or work in a greenhouse for minimum wage. That's what
my degree is worth to me.

Oh, well, and I can watch "El Mariachi" with the subtitles off. That was
worth $20,000.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

CW wrote:
Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
they fill classes and keep teachers working.


Five years ago the counselors would have said IT and Web design was the growth
and high paying field of the next century and would have steered the new student
to the field.

Today these students are graduating. You know what their finding.


This is the reason I went to PIA and got the aviation degree and license. Not to
necessarily work on aircraft but to be employable. Someone always needs someone
to build or maintain something. An employer is hard pressed to NOT look at me
for a position.




--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

CW wrote:

Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
they fill classes and keep teachers working.

Yeah, I do think there should be a lot more emphasis on "what are you going
to do after you graduate?"

I get some blame too though. I could have done better homework. I didn't
really start to think about what I was going to do to earn money in a
serious way until my fiancée's EPT turned purple, or blue, or whatever
color it was.

I did have a vague plan. I was going to go to grad school and become "a
professor or something."

Oh well. At least my kids can learn from my mistakes. My parents didn't
put a lot of emphasis on my major because they both got degrees in
psychology and wound up eventually getting really decent, completely
unrelated jobs "because we have college degrees."

The problem is that just doesn't work anymore. Bill the homeless guy has
three PhDs these days.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Bridger wrote:

On 06 Feb 2004 15:36:45 GMT, Brian Elfert wrote:

Pretty soon,
one ticket machine will take an entire wall to include all the
instructions in different languages.

Brian Elfert


nothing a little well written software can't take care of.

we'd all be richer for it.

Yeah, software is free.

In article ,
says...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

.... snip

Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can earn in a
given field are always for people who have made it through the lean initial
years too. That's a real deal breaker. I was looking seriously at law
enforcement until I learned that rookie cops make the same as experienced
cashiers at Wal-Mart.

.... snip
This is one reason why I view income as a trap. I could do *much* better
than $15 an hour in trucking already, but I don't like my trade very much,
and I don't want to limit my options by raising my income too high.

What's that? "Limit your options by raising your income too high? Are you
insane?" No, not at all. I have proven that the more I make, the more
ways I find to obligate myself to maintaining that level of income. If
changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is difficult (virtually
impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much more difficult to maintain
$20 or $30.


Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
only the increase in some investment account.