Bonehenge wrote:

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:14:11 -0500, "Ron Moore"
wrote:

I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be?

Maybe they have a basement?


Not very common in Florida, unless you build it above ground, then
bring in lots of truckloads of dirt to make it look like its sitting on
a small hill.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

digitalmaster wrote:

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every
"Man of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build
items from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every
garage in the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a
work shop, storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms
and a maid's quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2
bedroom 1 bath house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not
having some kind of work area or work shop.

don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.

When I bought this house eight years ago, I couldn't even find a
realtor who even knew what a workshop was. One listing claimed to have a
workshop, so I got directions and went to see it. The "Workshop" was two
feet of 1" * 12" particle board over the dryer in the laundry room. I
went back to the realtor's office and read him the riot act in front of
everyone there, including other people looking for homes. I asked him if
he had been married so long that he had forgot what it was like to have
the space to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Finally, he asked, "Just
what the hell are you looking for?" I smiled and told him that I wanted
a house suitable for a single many with hobbies. A 150 square foot
house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find
it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found
a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom
cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small
library.

All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

digitalmaster wrote:

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every
"Man of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build
items from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every
garage in the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a
work shop, storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms
and a maid's quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2
bedroom 1 bath house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not
having some kind of work area or work shop.

don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.

When I bought this house eight years ago, I couldn't even find a
realtor who even knew what a workshop was. One listing claimed to have a
workshop, so I got directions and went to see it. The "Workshop" was two
feet of 1" * 12" particle board over the dryer in the laundry room. I
went back to the realtor's office and read him the riot act in front of
everyone there, including other people looking for homes. I asked him if
he had been married so long that he had forgot what it was like to have
the space to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Finally, he asked, "Just
what the hell are you looking for?" I smiled and told him that I wanted
a house suitable for a single many with hobbies. A 150 square foot
house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find
it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found
a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom
cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small
library.

All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

A friend of mine found a nice place with a work shop.... An old chicken
farm. 5 buildings 60 feet wide by 150 feet long with good roofs, and
construction, with a nice house. Total cost was 200K. Oh I forgot, 14
acres of land too. This was in lower NY state.

John

Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.
No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.


That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could
butcher it, so he must have a clue, probably way
more than a clue.

My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
way a professional does it and one may not end up
with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
usually end up with bite size pieces before I
stuff them in my mouth.

I was asked: COULD you butcher a hog, if you really needed to?

I answered: Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let
somebody else do it.

Some points of clarification.

Where I came from, you start early in the morning to butcher a hog.

I don't do early in the morning any more.

Where I came from, you wait for cold weather to butcher a hog.

I don't do cold weather any more.

Where I came from, it's a lot of hard work to butcher a hog.

I don't do hard work any more.

Lew

On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:09:01 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:52:56 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:


Sometimes it doesn't. At the height of the Roman Empire,
Rome had a population of around 1,000,000. By the late
Middle Ages, that was down to less than 10,000, and wolves
were roaming the streets. Various other societies have gone
through collapses that were as bad, if not worse. Contrary
to what we like to think, things can, in fact, go Very
Badly. There is no reason to suppose that we are somehow
immune.
========================
This was addressed at some length in my dissertation in Appendix
A -- THE LINEAR AND ACCRETION MODELS OF ECONOMIC EVOLUTION

[snip]
(For example
Rousseau 1712-1778 and Gibbons 1737-1794 )[snip]

How did your dissertation advisor feel about such obvious proofing errors?
What was your dissertation for, and when and where was it accepted?
Published? Just curious.

Jeff

===============
I am not sure how obvious an "s" on Gibbon is. I hope this did
not interrupt the flow too badly when you were reading the
section.


Dissertation was for
EdD
Oklahoma State University, 1999
(Stillwater, Oklahoma)
Occupational and Adult Education

I was one of the last two graduates from that
department/discipline. The other was a very good friend from
Brazil and we still email about vocational/technical education in
our countries.

Several problems.

I used endnotes and these don't come over [well] when doing a
cut-n-paste to "text only" newsgroup postings.

I have made three moves since graduation and when I finely got
around to converting the formatted and proofed MS doc file [done
by some very talented dissertation typists] into pdf format for
posting on my web site after I retired and had time, I discovered
that several parts of the final file were unreadable, so had to
use my unformatted block left working files. The appendix was
one of those sections.



Unka George
(George McDuffee)

....and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
“A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.”

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.
No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.


That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could
butcher it, so he must have a clue, probably way
more than a clue.

My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
way a professional does it and one may not end up
with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
usually end up with bite size pieces before I
stuff them in my mouth.

If you puncture the intestine you contaminate the meat and have a bunch
of scrap. Pig **** must taste as bad as it smells. It will poison you
too.


John

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote
on Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:54:53 GMT in misc.survivalism :
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:59:36 +0100, Mark Trudgill
wrote:

The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.

No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

Based on a sermon title from Dad's Seminary days ("Dead Hog and no Hot
Water...") I'd say not having enough hot water is one factor. Don't ask
me, I just pass 'em along.

Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.

If the dead pig doesn't manage to stick him in the process.

I'm not sure of all the details, but is seems that after Udo killed the
hog, he placed the knife in the wrong place, and the dead pork roast
"kicked" the knife right through his foot. In one side and out the other.
Fortunately, Germany has good health care, but Udo was rather unhappy. he
didn't feel right laying in bed all week, but orders are orders, especially
when delivered by Herr Doctor. (And we had a couple English Nursing
Sisters in the group, so he was Confined to his Room for the duration.)

Make some good hotlinks though ....

I'll take your word for it.


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 23:16:44 -0400, John wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

.... snip

When I bought this house eight years ago, I couldn't even find a
realtor who even knew what a workshop was. One listing claimed to have a
workshop, so I got directions and went to see it. The "Workshop" was two
feet of 1" * 12" particle board over the dryer in the laundry room. I
went back to the realtor's office and read him the riot act in front of
everyone there, including other people looking for homes. I asked him if
he had been married so long that he had forgot what it was like to have
the space to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Finally, he asked, "Just
what the hell are you looking for?" I smiled and told him that I wanted
a house suitable for a single many with hobbies. A 150 square foot
house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find
it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found
a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom
cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small
library.

All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)



A friend of mine found a nice place with a work shop.... An old chicken
farm. 5 buildings 60 feet wide by 150 feet long with good roofs, and
construction, with a nice house. Total cost was 200K. Oh I forgot, 14
acres of land too. This was in lower NY state.

John

That's a really great idea. Only downside that I can think of is that
(at least around where I grew up), those buildings typically had openings
half-way up that easily opened for fresh air during the warm months. Not
sure they were very weather or air-tight. Also, do you know whether they
had concrete or dirt floors? But for a relatively small amount of
remodeling, one could have a woodshop, a tractor restoration shed, a
metalworking shop --- (Dang, I'm out of hobbies and still have two more
buildings to go; I guess one could be used by the family for storage).






+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:51:48 -0400, John wrote:


My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
way a professional does it and one may not end up
with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
usually end up with bite size pieces before I
stuff them in my mouth.

If you puncture the intestine you contaminate the meat and have a bunch
of scrap. Pig **** must taste as bad as it smells. It will poison you
too.


John

Only if you dont follow proper procedures and wash out the body cavity
after dropping the guts. Use a garden hose, then follow up with a gallon
of vinegar. Works great on deer too.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.

You can learn a lot about someone by handing them a simple tool like a
ratcheting socket wrench, especially to assemble something. The
inexperienced try to tighten the still loose bolt holding the end of
the ratchet handle and of course have it always falling off the nut...
the experienced finger tighten, palm the ratchet mechanism, and only
shift down to the end of the handle for the last little bit. Of course
we haven't thought about that since we were 8 or so... which is why
it's so shocking to see how a newbie treats the tool!


Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:09:01 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:52:56 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:


Sometimes it doesn't. At the height of the Roman Empire,
Rome had a population of around 1,000,000. By the late
Middle Ages, that was down to less than 10,000, and wolves
were roaming the streets. Various other societies have gone
through collapses that were as bad, if not worse. Contrary
to what we like to think, things can, in fact, go Very
Badly. There is no reason to suppose that we are somehow
immune.
========================
This was addressed at some length in my dissertation in Appendix
A -- THE LINEAR AND ACCRETION MODELS OF ECONOMIC EVOLUTION

[snip]
(For example
Rousseau 1712-1778 and Gibbons 1737-1794 )[snip]

How did your dissertation advisor feel about such obvious proofing
errors?
What was your dissertation for, and when and where was it accepted?
Published? Just curious.

Jeff

===============
I am not sure how obvious an "s" on Gibbon is. I hope this did
not interrupt the flow too badly when you were reading the
section.


Dissertation was for
EdD
Oklahoma State University, 1999
(Stillwater, Oklahoma)
Occupational and Adult Education

I was one of the last two graduates from that
department/discipline. The other was a very good friend from
Brazil and we still email about vocational/technical education in
our countries.

Congratulations on your achievement.

Jeff

Several problems.

I used endnotes and these don't come over [well] when doing a
cut-n-paste to "text only" newsgroup postings.

I have made three moves since graduation and when I finely got
around to converting the formatted and proofed MS doc file [done
by some very talented dissertation typists] into pdf format for
posting on my web site after I retired and had time, I discovered
that several parts of the final file were unreadable, so had to
use my unformatted block left working files. The appendix was
one of those sections.



Unka George
(George McDuffee)

...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
"A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East."

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

In article . net,
Lew Hodgett wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

And for the organ meat crowd: Smithville Restaurant in Smithville, OH,
not far from here, makes a serving of seasoned, breaded, deep fried
chicken livers that melts in your mouth and tastes like heaven on a
fork. At least they do if they're still in business.

You mean that place is still in business?

Far as I know, but I haven't been there in a few years either.


I knew it as "The Smithville Inn", home of the chicken dinner, served
family style.

You're correct. I misremembered.


Amish country is less than 10 miles away, so you can guess what the
quality and taste of the food is/was.

Oh, yeah!


Haven't been in the place since 1955.

Lew

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

In article ,
John wrote:

A 150 square foot
house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find
it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found
a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom
cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small
library.

All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

A friend of mine found a nice place with a work shop.... An old chicken
farm. 5 buildings 60 feet wide by 150 feet long with good roofs, and
construction, with a nice house. Total cost was 200K. Oh I forgot, 14
acres of land too. This was in lower NY state.

John

Brings to mind a place that went up for sale around here about 15-20
years ago: 10 acres on a corner, 4BR ranch house, two-story workshop
with loading dock and crane, three other concrete block outbuildings,
all heated, free gas from well on property. Previous owner was a
contractor of some sort.

Few bid on it. The realtor said because the owner had committed suicide
and there were silly rumors about it being haunted.

I told a blacksmithing colleague in Ft. Wayne, Indiana about it. His
comment: Haunted? So what? If there's a ghost there, the sonofabitch
better have a hammer in his hand during working hours! What he does
after that is his problem long as he doesn't disturb my sleep.

Place finally went for ~60,000, about half or less what it should have
brought. Same nice folks are still there and haven't said anything about
being bothered by ghosts.

They do have a tendency to consume a fair amount of spirits on weekends
however.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.

You can learn a lot about someone by handing them a simple tool like a
ratcheting socket wrench, especially to assemble something. The
inexperienced try to tighten the still loose bolt holding the end of
the ratchet handle and of course have it always falling off the nut...
the experienced finger tighten, palm the ratchet mechanism, and only
shift down to the end of the handle for the last little bit.

And the really experienced start the nut, hold the Air ratchet handle and
then squeeze.

On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:13:55 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:

(snips)

I'm not talking about going through an economic shift, but
an economic/societal collapse. Different story...

Time to define our terms, I think. So, what does an economic/societal
collapse mean to you?

Personally, I expect American society to die with a whimper, not a bang,
over a span of many generations, in a way that is not readily apparent to
many who are living through it.

That's possible, and most likely. But...

I can give you another scenario: 5 or 6 120 kt nukes go off
in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. (Hezbollah, Al Qaida,
etc. have "won".) The investment, banking, and fed gov
systems go into paralysis. No banks open, no stock markets,
no commodity markets. No way to maintain the electrical
grids, because of no way to pay the workers and suppliers.
No way to restart the financial markets, because most of the
leadership and workers in NYC are dead, and the buildings
are in ruins, and the financial infrastructure won't be
rebuilt for years, if ever. Then what's left of the fed gov
(most of the leadership already being dead) starts
distributing the billions (or is it trillions?) of dollars
in paper money they have stored up for just such an
emergency. Then the worker bees in places like Denver and
San Jose figure out that they aren't going to get paid, and
if they do get paid, it will be in money that is losing its
value faster than a 1923 German Mark. Then you go to your
standard rioting, looting, killing, and general collapse of
society. Millions of dead bodies start piling up, and the
population of the U.S. is rapidly heading towards half or
less of what it was a couple of months before. State and
local governments start devolving from fed gov control and
issue their own currencies, which don't hold their value
either. Local warlords start... well, you get the idea.

I'm not suggesting that is likely, or even the most likely
result of that nuclear attack scenario. What I am saying is
-- assuming that it can't possibly happen is a mistake. It
has recently happened, to lesser extents, in societies which
have suffered lesser shocks. A good example is the former
USSR, which has gone through a monetary collapse, a severe
population decline (the life expectancy is now only about
60), a social collapse, with alcoholism becoming even a
bigger problem (contributing to that life expectancy
decrease) and with millions of pensioners becoming
impoverished as their state pensions' values evaporated
along with the value of the ruble. And all they had to
shock them was an inefficient social/economic system, a
failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant
disaster. Extrapolate the results from my 5 or 6 nukes
scenario, and you easily get to a near-total societal
collapse. For fictional depictions, see: The Postman, Road
Warrior, etc.

It wouldn't be like the transition from buggy whips to Model
Ts. It would be a transition from the complex, highly
ordered Information Society to a chaotic world of scarcity,
destruction, and death. Another poster summed it up
succinctly in another thread -- no cops.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 11:00:43 GMT, Glen wrote:


F. George McDuffee wrote:

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:



SNIP

In

addition to creating a generation that has no knowledge of how
things work, the abolition of the vocational classes has lead to
a huge upsurge in male dropouts who were attending school only
for the vocational classes.


SNIP

Oh my God! Does this mean all my woodshop classes for next year
(2006-07) at the high school where I teach have been dropped? Does this
mean I am now out of work? Are my fellow IA teachers who teach masonry,
auto shop and computer repair also out of work? Do we now hold our
department meetings at the unemployment office?

The scenario you present might be true in some places, but not in all.
I have been asked (along with a few of my cohorts)to work on a funding
grant to expand our vocational offerings in our school, and maybe the
district as a whole.

Glen


The school that has any sort of shop class..is the exception, rather
than the rule. And not just in California where I live.

Gunner

I, too, live and work in SoCal, and you are correct in saying that VocEd
is the exception rather than the rule, but I merely wanted to point out
that there are some good VocEd programs out there, and some are growing
and flourishing. There is such a demand for our Wood classes that
sessions of Wood are offered after regular school hours, and the Masonry
and Auto classes are filled to capacity with many more wanting the
classes than there is room for students.

In response to another gentleman's comments later on, our principal is
nearing retirement (as am I), but our three previous principals were
also devoted to VocEd. We will have a new superintendent next year, and
I hope that this individual has the same commitment as the previous super.

As a side note, the community college near where I live (I don't know
much about the CC near to my job) has an excellent Wood program, even
periodically offerring a guiter building class.

Glen

Gunner wrote:

Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.


And those tire changers who don't realize that my '82 Ford PU has left hand
threads on ONE rear wheel :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

carl mciver wrote:

In the Seattle area, the aerospace community has been complaining for
several years about just that, and it isn't until the concrete heads in the
legislature realized they were chasing all the skilled labor and shops out
of state have they realized what a skill shortage there is. A day late and
a dollar short, but better late than never. Unfortunately, when I hired on
at Boeing, with a million others barely able to breathe, they trained me on
company time. Got a whole lot of useless folks in the process. This time,
they're training the new hires on their time, for two weeks. A coworker of
mine got hit in the head by a fast moving rivet die. Seems the gal she was
teaching thought it was okay to put the die in the gun while holding the
trigger down. Absent the retainer spring, of course. As soon as she did it
the second time, just minutes later, they told her to take a hike. That's
why they're doing it differently this time around, as the dead wood gets
weeded out quickly. They aren't kicking people out for not having the
skills, they're removing them for not having a trainable attitude.

I recently got a very cool new job. One of the reasons I got the job
was the last line on my resume: "With the right attitude all skill deficits
can be overcome." That impresses the hell out of folks, especially when
your attitude seems to match the resume. (I once had the honor of bringing
onto my crew an older Greek lady who had no skills but just the exact
attitude I wanted. She worked her ass off and made the folks who had been
around for years look like amateurs once I taught her what she needed to
know.) I had also showed them pictures of some machines I had recently
built, which the interviewers (a structured interview with several folks
there) were almost fighting over. They wanted someone who could "do things"
instead of just talking about stuff. My fingernails being a bit chewed up
and slightly dirty helped a bit, I suspect.


My last job was at Microdyne which built telemetry equipment for the
aerospace industry. I was hired as a test technician on the module
line. I was told I only had six weeks to prove that I could do at least
80% of the average work done by everyone else on the line, and that I
would work with another tech as a trainer for the full six weeks. I
started on a Wednesday morning. By the Friday afternoon of that week my
training was terminated and I was assigned a test stamp. The following
Monday afternoon a "Committee" showed up at my bench to "Order" me to
slow down, that i was already producing more work than anyone else in
the department, and "You will slow down, if you know what was good for
you." I smiled and thanked them, then told them that if they didn't
want to look bad, they had three choices:

1: Learn to work faster.
2: Learn to work smarter.
or
3: Get out of my way because I was hired to do a job, not to win a
popularity contest. Then I offered to teach them to be better techs and
they laughed at me. One asked "How can you teach us anything?" I
shrugged and said, I don't know, but if I can do the job better and
faster after just three days, you might be surprised. ;-)

They informed me that I was rude, arrogant, and opinionated. Within
a couple weeks they started to ask questions. I answered, and got
stupid looks, but they did what I suggested, and they came back with big
smiles to tell ne it solved the problem. They didn't know that most of
my electronics work had been mission critical jobs, ad you didn't have
time to waste, so you studied the manuals and schematics ahead of time
so you knew how it worked.

They finally realized I wasn't bragging about my skills, that I had
worked very hard to develop them, and that I willing shared them with
anyone willing to learn.

I was there a little over four years, and ended up working with
almost every part of the company because of my, "It will be done. Done
Right. Done on time. Done on budget." attitude. On day my boss
commented, "You just won't take NO for an answer." I smiled and said,
"You're right, and I won't take YES, if I don't believe them."

Management kept coming around with new "Quality Statements" we were
supposed to memorize. I shoved the printout back into the HR manager's
hands and told him I wouldn't lower my standards for anyone. He turned
red and asked, "Well, What is your standard?" I grinned and told him
that "I do the best possible job with the tools and materials available,
and strive to do even better." His jaw dropped, and he walked away
muttering under his breath. ;-)

I was a volunteer advisor for the electronics program at the Lake
County Votech, until they decided to shut the course down and replace it
with a computer repair course. The "Instructor" was the school system's
IT director, and he was teaching with bad materials from the XT days.
No one had made the boards he was teaching about for over 10 years, and
he was having to read it from a ratty old library book, because he
didn't know what he was doing. All he knew was how to admin a small
Novel network.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

digitalmaster wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...


don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.


That's not entirely true. The builder can build the house cheaper with a
plain two car garage. How many people actually only store only their cars
in their garages?


And he can sell it cheaper...The market is driven by the buyer.If more
people are willing to pay for a shop more builders will build houses with a
shop.If most people do not want to pay extra for a shop they are not
built.Builders try to build what sells.



We've got a two car garage with two doors, but we never "park" the cars
in them.

I or my son will pull a car into one of them to work on it, but as far
as regular parking goes, there's so much stuff stacked up against the
walls (plus a couple of lally columns down the centerline) that
squeezing through a barely openable car door inside the garage is such a
PIA that we just park outside.

But we still use a garage door as our usual entry/exit to the house,
'cause it's much closer to where we park than the front door is, and it
has "keyless entry" via a push of the garage door opener button inside
the car. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

John wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:56:49 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every "Man
of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build items

from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every garage in

the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a work shop,
storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms and a maid's
quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2 bedroom 1 bath
house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not having some kind
of work area or work shop.

And home owner associations that forbid you from even leaving your
garage door open for more than 30 minutes.

A house in most new developments is no longer a home..but a place to
sleep, and park your fat ass in front of the TV

Gunner



Anyone that likes to live in a controlled enviorment gets what they
deserve.

You have to get approval to do just about anything around your house.
You even need a fart licence or they lock you up.

John

They sure do sound like my idea of hell.

I've always held the opinion that my property rights extend as far as my
property line and my neighbors should be free to do anything that's
legal they want to their property as long as it doesn't create an
imminent danger or an audible, foul odored or a physical intrusion over
the property line.

If my next door neighbor decides he wants to paint his house to look
like it's covered with tartan plaid with a black and white striped
chimney or forgos cuttting his grass for two months, so be it. I can
probably screen out the view from my side if I'm so inclined.

In fact, that's just what I did two years ago when my next door neighbor
had some major improvements done to his home which left me looking at a
pretty ugly looking "rubble wall":

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/jeff/mmiv.html

The bushes I planted in 2004 have grown so they now just about block out
all view of the messy job his contractors did.

To my neighbor's credit, when he saw me schlepping those arborvitae
bushes home in the trunk of my car three at a time and planting them
over several weekends, he came over and insisted on paying for them. He
wouldn't take "no" for an answer so we settled on his writing a
comparable sized check to a local charity we support. Everyone won that way.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

Jeff Wisnia wrote:


To my neighbor's credit, when he saw me schlepping those arborvitae
bushes home in the trunk of my car three at a time and planting them
over several weekends, he came over and insisted on paying for them.

Talk about ugly on an ape.

Give those arborvitae about 10 years, you will probably wish you had
never planted them.

Lew

Lobby Dosser wrote:


Was the electricity out for six months? Nation wide? It is possible.

Possible but highly unlikely. In the Pacific NW lots of the
electricity is hydroelectric.
Other places are coal, or natural gas. What do you see as possibly
causing a nation wide power outage?


Dan

On 6 Aug 2006 05:28:08 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA"
wrote:


RANT
ON............................................... ...............................

I am in agreement with everyone. Its all stuffed becasue the Youth of
Today are slack, cant drive a nail, butcher a hog, build their own 4
engine heavy bomber etc - all the stuff WE did as kids. (yeh, sure....)

And I bet they dont have to walk to school, barefoot, through the snow,
with only a pointy stick to protect themselves against wolves......

Uh, just a point of clarification, that's "up hill, both ways, against
the wind, while being chased by bears." Maybe there's wolves there
too. I was too worried about the bears. Funny that, my dad
experienced the same thing. I know, I asked him about it.


Get real, people. Its ALWAYS been like this - we are a bunch of Old
Farts who get the ****s because our 10yo grandchildren can program our
cellphones, but we cant. I think Socrates or Aristotle wrote about this
a few thousand years ago. Nothings changed.

What's a cellphone?

Actually I know, but they're far far far too expensive for the kind of
use I'd give one.


This group is devoted to people like us, it self-selects people who
like building things (with machine tools), who take great pride in hard
learned skills, and yet are slightly AMAZED that the rest of the world
doesnt find them at all interesting. Funny that. Wonder why?

So, dont take it too seriously - what will get us all in the end is
collapse of the basic infrastructure that allows us (among other
things) to sit in front of our PC's and have mad rants like this.
Loosen up, lighten up - just because we are not awash with competent
machinists or skilled artisans doesnt mean that society is ruined.


Everyone needs stuff. Furniture, houses, appliances, whatever.
Sooner or later the pen pushers and button pressers have to come to
us.

It gets funnier. I was asked to make something, I worked up a quote
and never heard about it again. I was over to that persons house
recently and note that the task to be done wasn't. Apparently no one
would do the work at their price. Or something like that.



So........

RANT OFF

Yeah! What he said.

Anyone that likes to live in a controlled enviorment gets what they
deserve.

You have to get approval to do just about anything around your house. You
even need a fart licence or they lock you up.

John

You got that right. I can understand why some people buy into these, and I
know people who live in just such communities. They mostly love it because
they like everything in its place at all times. Homes they are not. Very
sterile atmosphere. But they like the golfing, mah jong marathons, and soy
burger cookouts, so, whatever winds yer clock.

I just bought a home with two acres at the end of a road in a very rural
Utah town. Nothing but BLM land all around that won't be developed in my
lifetime. Or probably in this century. It does have some zoning
restrictions, but they mainly apply to building permits, setbacks, and
common sense items that affect others. That is why I bought there. The
people I know who live in HOAs wouldn't consider living there, but they
don't have to.

Whatever winds your clock.

Steve

"And all they had to shock them was an inefficient social/economic
system, a
failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant disaster."

Robert, you missed the BIG one.. the Cold War arms race caused them to
spend their society into the ground.

Now consider where the United States (Republican) budget deficit stands
at this moment and ask yourself how close we are to the same situation.

A heck of a lot closer than we were in 2000.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:13:55 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:

(snips)

I'm not talking about going through an economic shift, but
an economic/societal collapse. Different story...

Time to define our terms, I think. So, what does an economic/societal
collapse mean to you?

Personally, I expect American society to die with a whimper, not a bang,
over a span of many generations, in a way that is not readily apparent to
many who are living through it.

That's possible, and most likely. But...

I can give you another scenario: 5 or 6 120 kt nukes go off
in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. (Hezbollah, Al Qaida,
etc. have "won".) The investment, banking, and fed gov
systems go into paralysis. No banks open, no stock markets,
no commodity markets. No way to maintain the electrical
grids, because of no way to pay the workers and suppliers.
No way to restart the financial markets, because most of the
leadership and workers in NYC are dead, and the buildings
are in ruins, and the financial infrastructure won't be
rebuilt for years, if ever. Then what's left of the fed gov
(most of the leadership already being dead) starts
distributing the billions (or is it trillions?) of dollars
in paper money they have stored up for just such an
emergency. Then the worker bees in places like Denver and
San Jose figure out that they aren't going to get paid, and
if they do get paid, it will be in money that is losing its
value faster than a 1923 German Mark. Then you go to your
standard rioting, looting, killing, and general collapse of
society. Millions of dead bodies start piling up, and the
population of the U.S. is rapidly heading towards half or
less of what it was a couple of months before. State and
local governments start devolving from fed gov control and
issue their own currencies, which don't hold their value
either. Local warlords start... well, you get the idea.

I'm not suggesting that is likely, or even the most likely
result of that nuclear attack scenario. What I am saying is
-- assuming that it can't possibly happen is a mistake. It
has recently happened, to lesser extents, in societies which
have suffered lesser shocks. A good example is the former
USSR, which has gone through a monetary collapse, a severe
population decline (the life expectancy is now only about
60), a social collapse, with alcoholism becoming even a
bigger problem (contributing to that life expectancy
decrease) and with millions of pensioners becoming
impoverished as their state pensions' values evaporated
along with the value of the ruble. And all they had to
shock them was an inefficient social/economic system, a
failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant
disaster. Extrapolate the results from my 5 or 6 nukes
scenario, and you easily get to a near-total societal
collapse. For fictional depictions, see: The Postman, Road
Warrior, etc.

It wouldn't be like the transition from buggy whips to Model
Ts. It would be a transition from the complex, highly
ordered Information Society to a chaotic world of scarcity,
destruction, and death. Another poster summed it up
succinctly in another thread -- no cops.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Oil disposal fee? No place selling oil can charge you a fee legally. The
law states that ANY business selling new oil MUST accept used oil for
recycling, at NO CHARGE. Cost 0.00 Drop off the used oil from the
vehicle when you buy the new oil. You can even pour it back into the
empty bottles to save on container expense.
Benefits to the owner: YOU know the oil was changed, while under there
YOU can look over the engine and underside of the vehicle and look for
problems or leaks. While under the vehicle YOU can also grease any items
that can be greased, this has the side benefit of lowering wear on items
that should be lubed but usually are not.


Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

And again you can return the used coolant to any store that does coolant
changes for free. And again you can return it when you buy the new coolant.


The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Not likely. Just a normal plug wrench for any plug on the market today.
You may need a torx bit or similar item if you need to remove a coil
pack or pull a cover but those are hardly special tools.


Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Nope because they have the same attitude you have, that it is easier to
trade them than to LEARN how to repair them.


Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.


Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

wrote in message
ups.com...

Lobby Dosser wrote:


Was the electricity out for six months? Nation wide? It is possible.

Possible but highly unlikely. In the Pacific NW lots of the
electricity is hydroelectric.
Other places are coal, or natural gas. What do you see as possibly
causing a nation wide power outage?


Destruction of power lines. Right now there are disruptions and everything
is working. OK. If several producers go out and lines go down you could see
a system that is over taxed and totally fail. It happened years ago in New
York, a few years ago, or maybe last summer in the Midwest, and it happens
in California.
There would be no extreme hurry to repair as energy shortages are a
palatable excuse to drive up prices. Both the energy companies and oil
companies are enjoying this scenario right now.

Gosh, BP is shutting down its Oil pipe line today and already prices for
gasoline are going up.

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Oil disposal fee? No place selling oil can charge you a fee legally. The
law states that ANY business selling new oil MUST accept used oil for
recycling, at NO CHARGE. Cost 0.00 Drop off the used oil from the
vehicle when you buy the new oil. You can even pour it back into the
empty bottles to save on container expense.
Benefits to the owner: YOU know the oil was changed, while under there
YOU can look over the engine and underside of the vehicle and look for
problems or leaks. While under the vehicle YOU can also grease any items
that can be greased, this has the side benefit of lowering wear on items
that should be lubed but usually are not.


Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

And again you can return the used coolant to any store that does coolant
changes for free. And again you can return it when you buy the new coolant.


The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Not likely. Just a normal plug wrench for any plug on the market today.
You may need a torx bit or similar item if you need to remove a coil
pack or pull a cover but those are hardly special tools.


Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Nope because they have the same attitude you have, that it is easier to
trade them than to LEARN how to repair them.


Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.


Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Its never a lose lose proposition learning how to do anything, and
really its not all that hard working on today's cars if you buy and
read the manuals, have access to tools and don't mind getting dirty.

I'm still driving a 1996 grand am with 260,000 miles on it and a 1995
Chevy S10 with 225,000 miles on it. I rebuilt the automatic
transmission in the S10 5 years ago by following a books instruction
(I don't think I ever want to do that again, but I learned something).
I've done all the maintenance myself on all the cars I've owned and
can't imagine the amounts of money I've saved over the years.

I'll be buying a Prius January 2007 and my intent is to do all the
service work on that as well.

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote
on Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.

You can learn a lot about someone by handing them a simple tool like a
ratcheting socket wrench, especially to assemble something. The
inexperienced try to tighten the still loose bolt holding the end of
the ratchet handle and of course have it always falling off the nut...
the experienced finger tighten,

Works real well when bolting fixtures to vise, tables, etc. Where I
work, there seems to be a tendency for people to stick the bolt in the
hole, grab the air wrench, and just press the trigger. Which explains why
the vise had the first 1/4 inch of threads stripped out. Do you really
need 100 ft/pounds of torque to hold a vice jaw in place?
And some one needs to stand over the dayshifters and beat them when
they tighten the 10-24 screws (to hold a 3/16 plate in place while the
peripheral pattern is milled) with the same force they normally used on
1/2-13 bolts used to hold 50 pound blocks to the tombstone! ("I have here
in my hand, two ball peen hammers. One is a standard 12 ounce head, the
other a 1/2 ounce head. Which would you rather have me use when I play the
Anvil Chorus on your knuckles?")

palm the ratchet mechanism, and only
shift down to the end of the handle for the last little bit. Of course
we haven't thought about that since we were 8 or so... which is why
it's so shocking to see how a newbie treats the tool!

Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.

Hey, I still have to make that motion with my hands, unless I've the
thing in my hand. We didn't bolt things together, we used nails. Of
course, we had to straighten the nails before we started ...
--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

" wrote:


Lobby Dosser wrote:


Was the electricity out for six months? Nation wide? It is possible.

Possible but highly unlikely. In the Pacific NW lots of the
electricity is hydroelectric.
Other places are coal, or natural gas. What do you see as possibly
causing a nation wide power outage?


Dan


Grid failure, for example. IIRC, the grid can fail in such a way that it
takes down equipment. Equipment not readily avaiable.

Take a different situation. Are we prepared for a bird flu epidemic? Say
25% of the population down?

"Jeff McCann" wrote:

Yep. No society is immune from collapse. My point is only that
technologically advanced societies are much less so. So, do you think
anyone alive at the height of the Roman Empire was still alive to see
those wolves roaming the streets? No. It took a very long time
indeed, for Roman society to decline and fall. It didn't suddenly
collapse within a portion of a single lifetime, like, say, the Incan
Empire.

The Inca and the Maya were very technologically advanced. Both collapsed in
a lifetime.

Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.
No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?
Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.


That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could
butcher it, so he must have a clue, probably way
more than a clue.

My point is there is no incorrect way as long as
one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the
way a professional does it and one may not end up
with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot
would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I
usually end up with bite size pieces before I
stuff them in my mouth.

Feel free to roast mouth sized pieces.


Thanks. You buying? I'd prefer to BBQ them. But
soups are good, pork and beans, all sorts of
things you can do with scraps (I suppose he meant
little pieces). Of course bacon even a 10" strip
is just one bite when compressed.
Not to belabor the point, but I can't imagine
anyone cutting up a whole hog into scraps, way too
much work. OTOH, if I had to do it, I would
debone the whole thing.

Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from pyotr filipivich contains these words:

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote
on Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:54:53 GMT in misc.survivalism :
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:59:36 +0100, Mark Trudgill
wrote:

The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.
No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

Based on a sermon title from Dad's Seminary days ("Dead Hog and no Hot
Water...") I'd say not having enough hot water is one factor. Don't ask
me, I just pass 'em along.

You need hot water to scrape the hair off the skin.
You basically scold a small area of skin at a time and the hair and top
layer of skin peels off.

Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.

If the dead pig doesn't manage to stick him in the process.

I'm not sure of all the details, but is seems that after Udo killed the
hog, he placed the knife in the wrong place, and the dead pork roast
"kicked" the knife right through his foot. In one side and out the other.
Fortunately, Germany has good health care, but Udo was rather unhappy. he
didn't feel right laying in bed all week, but orders are orders, especially
when delivered by Herr Doctor. (And we had a couple English Nursing
Sisters in the group, so he was Confined to his Room for the duration.)
Make some good hotlinks though ....

I'll take your word for it.


pyotr


What kind of words do you use when you scold the
hog? I've heard of people using words that would
burn your hide when scolding kids, but never with
hogs.

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:40:15 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:


Anyone that likes to live in a controlled enviorment gets what they
deserve.

You have to get approval to do just about anything around your house.
You even need a fart licence or they lock you up.

John

They sure do sound like my idea of hell.

I've always held the opinion that my property rights extend as far as my
property line and my neighbors should be free to do anything that's
legal they want to their property as long as it doesn't create an
imminent danger or an audible, foul odored or a physical intrusion over
the property line.

LITTLE BOXES

Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky tacky.

Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes all the same.

There's a pink one and a green one and a blue one and a yellow one,

And they're all made out of ticky tacky, and they all look just the
same.

And the people in the houses all went to the university

Where they were put in boxes, and they came out all the same.

And there's doctors and there's lawyers, and business executives

And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course and drink their martinis dry,

And they all have pretty children and the children go to school.

And the children go to summer camp and then to the university

Where they are put in boxes and they come out all the same.

And the boys go into business and marry and raise a family

In boxes made of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

There’s a pink one and a green one and a blue one and a yellow one,

And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

Pete Seeger
*******************************

Gunner


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:05:26 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...

Lobby Dosser wrote:


Was the electricity out for six months? Nation wide? It is possible.

Possible but highly unlikely. In the Pacific NW lots of the
electricity is hydroelectric.
Other places are coal, or natural gas. What do you see as possibly
causing a nation wide power outage?


Destruction of power lines. Right now there are disruptions and everything
is working. OK. If several producers go out and lines go down you could see
a system that is over taxed and totally fail. It happened years ago in New
York, a few years ago, or maybe last summer in the Midwest, and it happens
in California.
There would be no extreme hurry to repair as energy shortages are a
palatable excuse to drive up prices. Both the energy companies and oil
companies are enjoying this scenario right now.

Gosh, BP is shutting down its Oil pipe line today and already prices for
gasoline are going up.


a dozen Islamic Jihadists and less than 1000 lbs of explosives could
shut down the Northeast and the Northwest in less than a day..and keep
them shut down for at least a month or longer

Gunner


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 7 Aug 2006 12:05:54 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

"And all they had to shock them was an inefficient social/economic
system, a
failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant disaster."

Robert, you missed the BIG one.. the Cold War arms race caused them to
spend their society into the ground.

Yes, but that spending went on for 44 years, as did their
WWII spending for 4 years before that. But yes, you are
right that it did help ruin them.

Now consider where the United States (Republican) budget deficit stands
at this moment and ask yourself how close we are to the same situation.

A heck of a lot closer than we were in 2000.

Yes we are. And we will be even closer 10 years from now,
regardless of which party wins. Both parties favor ever
increasing spending. The only difference is in what they
want to spend the money on.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
et...

They sure do sound like my idea of hell.

I've always held the opinion that my property rights extend as far as my
property line and my neighbors should be free to do anything that's legal
they want to their property as long as it doesn't create an imminent
danger or an audible, foul odored or a physical intrusion over the
property line.


That sounds like a set of rules that meet your aproval.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:_tOBg.7403$7m5.2775@trnddc05...
"Jeff McCann" wrote:

Yep. No society is immune from collapse. My point is only that
technologically advanced societies are much less so. So, do you think
anyone alive at the height of the Roman Empire was still alive to see
those wolves roaming the streets? No. It took a very long time
indeed, for Roman society to decline and fall. It didn't suddenly
collapse within a portion of a single lifetime, like, say, the Incan
Empire.

The Inca and the Maya were very technologically advanced. Both collapsed
in
a lifetime.

No, they were not technologically advanced. They had some skill at
celestial observation, and a very rich culture, but they barely even used
the wheel or any other form of technology more advanced than that commonly
found in the Western world of thousands of years ago.

Jeff

Jeff

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:


6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.

$12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
whale oil in silver flasks?


Even Mobile 1 is less than $5


Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist