It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT


Repair jobs challenge young homeowners By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National
Writer
Thu Aug 3

The staff at his neighborhood hardware store can spot John Carter from
a distance.

He's the slightly befuddled guy who often comes in declaring, "I have
no idea what I'm doing. Can you at least get me through tonight?"

The 26-year-old Chicagoan, who's been slowly rehabbing the condo he
bought last year, is part of a generation of young homeowners who admit
they often have no clue how to handle home projects.

For them, shop class was optional. It also was more common for their
parents to hire contractors, leaving fewer opportunities for them to
learn basic repair skills.

With low interest rates allowing more young adults to buy property in
recent years, many inexperienced homeowners are desperate for advice
when the furnace goes out, the roof leaks or when a home project that
seemed like a no-brainer goes terribly wrong.

"They know they've got to buy real estate; they know it's a good
investment. But that doesn't help you when you swing a hammer and hit a
pipe in the wall," says Lou Manfredini, a Chicago hardware store owner
who gives do-it-yourself advice on local radio and nationally online
and on TV. "Unfortunately, homes don't come with an instruction
manual."

Contractors say it's not unusual for them to get frantic calls from
young do-it-yourselfers who get in over their heads.

Sometimes, the mistakes are silly.

Michel Hanet, who owns a door replacement business called IDRC in
Scottsdale, Ariz., has arrived at homes to find doors hung upside down.
He's also discovered more than one sliding pocket door that won't open
because someone nailed a picture on the wall and into the door.

"The younger generation are more likely the ones that are getting into
trouble," Hanet says. "The baby boomers have the money to do it, so
they just call and say 'I don't like my doors; just come and replace
them.'"

Kirsten Pellicer, the 30-year-old vice president of Ace hardware stores
in Longmont and Boulder, Colo., sees many young customers looking to
tackle projects on their own, often to save money.

"We rarely get requests for 'Do you know a good handyman?' from the
younger set," she says.

For Carter, the young Chicagoan, it's all about being brave enough to
try - and sometimes fail.

With the help of a buddy who has rehabbing experience, he's put in
hardwood floors, knocked out a wall and completely remodeled his condo
kitchen.

In the process, he's also managed to nearly flood the kitchen after
forgetting to completely seal off a refrigerator water line; had a
sliding closet door he was installing shatter a light bulb over his
head and crash on top of him; and been fined by his condo association
for a couple of other mishaps.

"The one thing about home remodeling is that it is intimidating. But in
the end, you find it's definitely worthwhile," says Carter, whose day
job is at a large accounting firm where he secures computerized
financial data. "You just have to accept that you're going to screw
up."

Dave Payne, a 26-year-old condo owner in suburban Atlanta, knows what
he means.

Payne made the mistake of trying to spackle over wallpaper in his condo
bathroom, leaving uneven chunks where the wallpaper pulled away from
the wall.

"There were just times when I wanted to pull my hair out and hire
someone when I looked at my ruined walls," he says.

But after hours of "spackling, sanding, spackling again, sanding again,
then priming," he's hoping no one will notice.

Increasingly, hardware professionals and others are addressing the need
for know-how.

Some community colleges and stores such as Lowe's and Home Depot offer
classes in projects from changing a faucet to tiling and putting in a
dimmer switch.

"It gives them some exposure, so if they want to do it on their own,
they have a starting point," says Peter Marx, a remodeling contractor
who teaches home repair at North Seattle Community College.

Others find help online, including at the Ace site, where Manfredini
- the Chicago hardware store owner - answers questions.

Home-centered television networks, including HGTV, are also in vogue.
HGTV executives say shows such as "Design on a Dime" and "What's Your
Sign? Design" - a show that builds on the unlikely combination of
astrology and home decorating - have helped boost its recent ratings
among young adults.

While 27-year-old Amy Choate occasionally goes online or watches TV
shows to get home-improvement ideas, more often she uses a resource
closer to home: her mom.

Among other things, mom showed her how to fix wall cracks in her
Chicago condo.

But Choate has no intention of tackling an upcoming kitchen rehab.
She'll leave that to a professional.

"I'd probably do it wrong," she says, "and end up paying twice as
much."

___

On the Net:

Answers (at) Ace: http://www.acehardware.com

Home Depot clinics: http://www.homedepotclinics.com/

Lowe's clinics:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...SchedProcessor

I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
When I was young, a garage full of tools and such was like a beacon in
the night. Had to look, ask questions, wanted to get to know the person and
try to learn. Nowadays, kids couldn't care less.
I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less garage
creativity is visible.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Kids being raised by single moms who didn't learn to work with their
hands because it wasn't a woman's place to do these things.
For awhile I owned a hardware store in Alaska. I knew absolutely
nothing about hardware when we bought it, but I eventually learned
what the stuff was called. Never did learn what to do with most of
it.
Luckily, I now have a very kind, generous gentleman friend who does a
lot of the repair stuff for me. Some I could do but have this great
fear of making whatever it is worse than when I started.


Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

I doubt my son can do much in the way of working with his hands. His
girlfriend is better at car stuff than he is because she worked in the
motor pool in the Army. At one time she was probably better with guns
than he is, but he's catching up.

Sue


TMT


Repair jobs challenge young homeowners By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National
Writer
Thu Aug 3

The staff at his neighborhood hardware store can spot John Carter from
a distance.

He's the slightly befuddled guy who often comes in declaring, "I have
no idea what I'm doing. Can you at least get me through tonight?"

The 26-year-old Chicagoan, who's been slowly rehabbing the condo he
bought last year, is part of a generation of young homeowners who admit
they often have no clue how to handle home projects.

For them, shop class was optional. It also was more common for their
parents to hire contractors, leaving fewer opportunities for them to
learn basic repair skills.

With low interest rates allowing more young adults to buy property in
recent years, many inexperienced homeowners are desperate for advice
when the furnace goes out, the roof leaks or when a home project that
seemed like a no-brainer goes terribly wrong.

"They know they've got to buy real estate; they know it's a good
investment. But that doesn't help you when you swing a hammer and hit a
pipe in the wall," says Lou Manfredini, a Chicago hardware store owner
who gives do-it-yourself advice on local radio and nationally online
and on TV. "Unfortunately, homes don't come with an instruction
manual."

Contractors say it's not unusual for them to get frantic calls from
young do-it-yourselfers who get in over their heads.

Sometimes, the mistakes are silly.

Michel Hanet, who owns a door replacement business called IDRC in
Scottsdale, Ariz., has arrived at homes to find doors hung upside down.
He's also discovered more than one sliding pocket door that won't open
because someone nailed a picture on the wall and into the door.

"The younger generation are more likely the ones that are getting into
trouble," Hanet says. "The baby boomers have the money to do it, so
they just call and say 'I don't like my doors; just come and replace
them.'"

Kirsten Pellicer, the 30-year-old vice president of Ace hardware stores
in Longmont and Boulder, Colo., sees many young customers looking to
tackle projects on their own, often to save money.

"We rarely get requests for 'Do you know a good handyman?' from the
younger set," she says.

For Carter, the young Chicagoan, it's all about being brave enough to
try - and sometimes fail.

With the help of a buddy who has rehabbing experience, he's put in
hardwood floors, knocked out a wall and completely remodeled his condo
kitchen.

In the process, he's also managed to nearly flood the kitchen after
forgetting to completely seal off a refrigerator water line; had a
sliding closet door he was installing shatter a light bulb over his
head and crash on top of him; and been fined by his condo association
for a couple of other mishaps.

"The one thing about home remodeling is that it is intimidating. But in
the end, you find it's definitely worthwhile," says Carter, whose day
job is at a large accounting firm where he secures computerized
financial data. "You just have to accept that you're going to screw
up."

Dave Payne, a 26-year-old condo owner in suburban Atlanta, knows what
he means.

Payne made the mistake of trying to spackle over wallpaper in his condo
bathroom, leaving uneven chunks where the wallpaper pulled away from
the wall.

"There were just times when I wanted to pull my hair out and hire
someone when I looked at my ruined walls," he says.

But after hours of "spackling, sanding, spackling again, sanding again,
then priming," he's hoping no one will notice.

Increasingly, hardware professionals and others are addressing the need
for know-how.

Some community colleges and stores such as Lowe's and Home Depot offer
classes in projects from changing a faucet to tiling and putting in a
dimmer switch.

"It gives them some exposure, so if they want to do it on their own,
they have a starting point," says Peter Marx, a remodeling contractor
who teaches home repair at North Seattle Community College.

Others find help online, including at the Ace site, where Manfredini
- the Chicago hardware store owner - answers questions.

Home-centered television networks, including HGTV, are also in vogue.
HGTV executives say shows such as "Design on a Dime" and "What's Your
Sign? Design" - a show that builds on the unlikely combination of
astrology and home decorating - have helped boost its recent ratings
among young adults.

While 27-year-old Amy Choate occasionally goes online or watches TV
shows to get home-improvement ideas, more often she uses a resource
closer to home: her mom.

Among other things, mom showed her how to fix wall cracks in her
Chicago condo.

But Choate has no intention of tackling an upcoming kitchen rehab.
She'll leave that to a professional.

"I'd probably do it wrong," she says, "and end up paying twice as
much."

___

On the Net:

Answers (at) Ace: http://www.acehardware.com

Home Depot clinics: http://www.homedepotclinics.com/

Lowe's clinics:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...SchedProcessor

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

Well my son can use the Yellow Pages and write checks. He know what a
hammer is, but does not have the desire to find out which end does what
functions.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every "Man
of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build items
from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every garage in
the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a work shop,
storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms and a maid's
quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2 bedroom 1 bath
house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not having some kind
of work area or work shop.

Very good post Ron....I wish I had written it.

TMT

Ron Moore wrote:
I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
When I was young, a garage full of tools and such was like a beacon in
the night. Had to look, ask questions, wanted to get to know the person and
try to learn. Nowadays, kids couldn't care less.
I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less garage
creativity is visible.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

Critical thinking is a lost art. It's loss gave rise to the democrat
party. Two chickens in every pot. Nobody asked where the chickens
would come from, who would pay for them. It's part of the Robin Hood
mentality. My young son liked the Robin Hood story until I told him
that Bill Clinton thought we were on the verge of becoming rich. I
asked him which of his posessions he would like to have confiscated so
that someone else could enjoy them.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Another time my son came home from school and said we need to quit
cutting down trees and building houses. I said OK. Then I asked him
if he liked living in our house. He did. I told him that the building
material came from trees, and that the grounds we live on were once
forested. I asked if, when he left home, he wanted to live in an
apartment in the crime-ridden center part of the city. He didn't want
to do that.

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

I certainly hope so, but with the media constantly pumping our
children's heads with their thoughts, how will they cope? They'll
probably all turn out to be good little unthinking voters, speeding our
way to socialism

TMT


Repair jobs challenge young homeowners By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National
Writer
Thu Aug 3

The staff at his neighborhood hardware store can spot John Carter from
a distance.

He's the slightly befuddled guy who often comes in declaring, "I have
no idea what I'm doing. Can you at least get me through tonight?"

The 26-year-old Chicagoan, who's been slowly rehabbing the condo he
bought last year, is part of a generation of young homeowners who admit
they often have no clue how to handle home projects.

For them, shop class was optional. It also was more common for their
parents to hire contractors, leaving fewer opportunities for them to
learn basic repair skills.

With low interest rates allowing more young adults to buy property in
recent years, many inexperienced homeowners are desperate for advice
when the furnace goes out, the roof leaks or when a home project that
seemed like a no-brainer goes terribly wrong.

"They know they've got to buy real estate; they know it's a good
investment. But that doesn't help you when you swing a hammer and hit a
pipe in the wall," says Lou Manfredini, a Chicago hardware store owner
who gives do-it-yourself advice on local radio and nationally online
and on TV. "Unfortunately, homes don't come with an instruction
manual."

Contractors say it's not unusual for them to get frantic calls from
young do-it-yourselfers who get in over their heads.

Sometimes, the mistakes are silly.

Michel Hanet, who owns a door replacement business called IDRC in
Scottsdale, Ariz., has arrived at homes to find doors hung upside down.
He's also discovered more than one sliding pocket door that won't open
because someone nailed a picture on the wall and into the door.

"The younger generation are more likely the ones that are getting into
trouble," Hanet says. "The baby boomers have the money to do it, so
they just call and say 'I don't like my doors; just come and replace
them.'"

Kirsten Pellicer, the 30-year-old vice president of Ace hardware stores
in Longmont and Boulder, Colo., sees many young customers looking to
tackle projects on their own, often to save money.

"We rarely get requests for 'Do you know a good handyman?' from the
younger set," she says.

For Carter, the young Chicagoan, it's all about being brave enough to
try - and sometimes fail.

With the help of a buddy who has rehabbing experience, he's put in
hardwood floors, knocked out a wall and completely remodeled his condo
kitchen.

In the process, he's also managed to nearly flood the kitchen after
forgetting to completely seal off a refrigerator water line; had a
sliding closet door he was installing shatter a light bulb over his
head and crash on top of him; and been fined by his condo association
for a couple of other mishaps.

"The one thing about home remodeling is that it is intimidating. But in
the end, you find it's definitely worthwhile," says Carter, whose day
job is at a large accounting firm where he secures computerized
financial data. "You just have to accept that you're going to screw
up."

Dave Payne, a 26-year-old condo owner in suburban Atlanta, knows what
he means.

Payne made the mistake of trying to spackle over wallpaper in his condo
bathroom, leaving uneven chunks where the wallpaper pulled away from
the wall.

"There were just times when I wanted to pull my hair out and hire
someone when I looked at my ruined walls," he says.

But after hours of "spackling, sanding, spackling again, sanding again,
then priming," he's hoping no one will notice.

Increasingly, hardware professionals and others are addressing the need
for know-how.

Some community colleges and stores such as Lowe's and Home Depot offer
classes in projects from changing a faucet to tiling and putting in a
dimmer switch.

"It gives them some exposure, so if they want to do it on their own,
they have a starting point," says Peter Marx, a remodeling contractor
who teaches home repair at North Seattle Community College.

Others find help online, including at the Ace site, where Manfredini
- the Chicago hardware store owner - answers questions.

Home-centered television networks, including HGTV, are also in vogue.
HGTV executives say shows such as "Design on a Dime" and "What's Your
Sign? Design" - a show that builds on the unlikely combination of
astrology and home decorating - have helped boost its recent ratings
among young adults.

While 27-year-old Amy Choate occasionally goes online or watches TV
shows to get home-improvement ideas, more often she uses a resource
closer to home: her mom.

Among other things, mom showed her how to fix wall cracks in her
Chicago condo.

But Choate has no intention of tackling an upcoming kitchen rehab.
She'll leave that to a professional.

"I'd probably do it wrong," she says, "and end up paying twice as
much."

___

On the Net:

Answers (at) Ace: http://www.acehardware.com

Home Depot clinics: http://www.homedepotclinics.com/

Lowe's clinics:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...SchedProcessor

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
entertainment, lawyering, etc.).

A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
to suffer a catastrophic collapse.

Fun, huh???

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
entertainment, lawyering, etc.).

A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
to suffer a catastrophic collapse.

Fun, huh???

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
entertainment, lawyering, etc.).

A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
to suffer a catastrophic collapse.

Fun, huh???

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.
snip

It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
specialized equipment.

Few doctors make house calls any more.

Might find it a little difficult to raise and butcher your own hogs in
most places where people live these days.

Times change, people change, the skills required to live in a modern
society keep changing.

Think the process is called "life".

Lew

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT
article snipped

If we don't get what we want, we get what we deserve….

Although this will draw the usual cries of "off topic" etc., I
feel that it is never-the-less one of the more important posts
that directly impacts the readers of these newsgroups and their
topics.

To put this screed in perspective, I spent the last 15 years of
my working career in post-secondary education at small to medium
sized community [junior] colleges. This could be a full-length
article, and I have indeed written several.

History clearly shows that any society/culture/economy where a
majority of its people loses (or never attains) at least a basic
level of understanding of its principal and major activities is
doomed in the long run (and most likely in the short run) because
they are unable to control what they have created (popularly
termed a "Frankenstein's monster"). Failure to understand
farming in an agricultural society, science in a technical
society, etc. is a disaster in the making.

It does not matter if the lack of understanding occurs because of
failure to teach and pass on hard-won knowledge, or new "things"
are introduced into the society/culture without a basic
understanding by the majority of the people *AND THEIR LEADERS*.

NOTE: Simply knowing "stuff" is not the same thing as knowing the
*RIGHT* "stuff" in this context. Indeed, it appears one of the
most definitive symptoms of this emerging and progressive problem
is an endless expansion of "education," with no rationale or
justification, into areas of limited or no utility, and in many
cases into areas more properly called magic, the occult, and
theology (in the sense that the assumptions and tenets can not be
proved or disproved by physical evidence). Consider how many of
our current "hot button issues" fit the occult and theological
templates of unseen forces and arcane knowledge limited to
specialist practitioners.

In the United States most states require a minimum of 180 days
and/or 1080 hours of student attendance per year. It should be
obvious that as this time is now fully "booked," when additional
"stuff" is added, something else must be dropped. With the
imposition of "Academic Trivial Pursuit" AKA "no child left
behind," what was imposed was instruction in the skills necessary
to score well on standardized objective tests [bingo cards] and
short-term rote memorization and rapid recall of "factoids."
What is being dropped are all vocational or "shop" classes. In
addition to creating a generation that has no knowledge of how
things work, the abolition of the vocational classes has lead to
a huge upsurge in male dropouts who were attending school only
for the vocational classes.

This is yet another example, where a critical public asset or
facility, in this case free compulsory education, has been
hi-jacked by the elite so they can impose their ideology and skim
the benefits (i.e. college preparatory education) while the vast
majority is deprived of the benefits (i.e. preparation for life
rather than for yet more education) although the majority is
expected to keep paying [more] for it.

The cure for this is local action, where the voters (parents)
fire the existing school board, and where the new school board
then fires the existing superintendents and principals, and so
on.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

....and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
“A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.”

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.
snip

It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
specialized equipment.

Few doctors make house calls any more.

Might find it a little difficult to raise and butcher your own hogs in
most places where people live these days.

Times change, people change, the skills required to live in a modern
society keep changing.

Think the process is called "life".

Lew

Lew, I'll call BS on the "impossible to work on cars without
specialized equipment"

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set
of hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you
or anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

Those are the stuff that make the bread and butter money for the
dealers. They are also the things that the average driver should be
quite able to recognize while they are starting to fail, too.

Even simple stuff like changing a flat seems to stump people these days.

Advanced diagnostics on the emissions control stuff is only a little
more difficult, now that most manufacturers are using somewhat
standardized on board diagnostics (OBD)in the computers. A simple code
reader and reset tool can be got for way less than $100, and you can get
a very nice diagnostic tool for less than the price of a set of good
tires. Most OBD systems allow you to read the codes without tools, if
you know how (hint: the manuals usually list the codes and tell how to
get them)

Specialization is for insects!

Cheers
Trevor Jones

F. George McDuffee wrote:

With the
imposition of "Academic Trivial Pursuit" AKA "no child left
behind," what was imposed was instruction in the skills necessary
to score well on standardized objective tests [bingo cards] and
short-term rote memorization and rapid recall of "factoids."

This is yet another example, where a critical public asset or
facility, in this case free compulsory education, has been
hi-jacked by the elite so they can impose their ideology and skim
the benefits (i.e. college preparatory education) while the vast
majority is deprived of the benefits (i.e. preparation for life
rather than for yet more education) although the majority is
expected to keep paying [more] for it.

The cure for this is local action, where the voters (parents)
fire the existing school board, and where the new school board
then fires the existing superintendents and principals, and so
on.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)


I agree with most of what you said. I do think that we need some
method of measuring the effectiveness of schools. So we do need
standard objective tests. And we do need to teach a certain amount of
" factoids " as well as principles. Knowing a certain amount of facts
allows one to concentrate on the larger problem. I would hate to go
thru life having to look up the value of Pi when I need to know the
area of a circle or go find a calculator. But we also need to teach
understanding what accuracy is needed when using Pi.

The current tests may not be what is needed. But one needs to be able
to put numbers on things in order to optimize. Sure more teachers are
good, but what is the most cost effective number of kids in a class?
And does it vary by age. Does it vary by the subject being taught. In
high school the class size is about 30 to 35. But suddenly in college
the class size might be 300 to 400.

And I think we need more competition in schools. The existing school
board may or may not need to be fired. But there needs to be more
charter schools and vouchers for private schools so students have
choices. We need schools that prepare students for college as well as
schools that prepare students for living without a college degree.
Without competition the public schools are going to go for the one size
fits all. It is a lot easier to administrate.


Dan

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:53:16 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

.... snip

In the United States most states require a minimum of 180 days
and/or 1080 hours of student attendance per year. It should be
obvious that as this time is now fully "booked," when additional
"stuff" is added, something else must be dropped. With the
imposition of "Academic Trivial Pursuit" AKA "no child left
behind," what was imposed was instruction in the skills necessary
to score well on standardized objective tests [bingo cards] and
short-term rote memorization and rapid recall of "factoids."
What is being dropped are all vocational or "shop" classes. In
addition to creating a generation that has no knowledge of how
things work, the abolition of the vocational classes has lead to
a huge upsurge in male dropouts who were attending school only
for the vocational classes.


While I believe that most of your premise is pretty close to on the mark,
I'm surprised that you pick no child left behind (NCLB) as your sore point.
Vocational and shop classes were being dropped long before the NCLB bill
was initiated. The standardized tests and other elements of that bill were
a response to the very real fact that children were graduating from school
who were unable to read, write, or perform basic math. Those are skills
that are fundamental, regardless of whether the person is going to college
or to a career in the trades. Some means of assuring that high school
graduates are capable of performing the most rudimentary elements of
societal activities (ability to balance a checkbook, read instructions and
ballots, etc) need to be established -- how else to do this but testing
those candidates for graduation? IMO, the real culprits in taking time
away from true education are those things identified as "crucial" by social
engineers in the education system to effect their own view of how the world
should work -- diversity education, inability to call anything "failure",
and other "classes" that spend more time worrying about emotional
adjustment of the child rather than instilling true knowledge, thinking
skills, and information into that child. We've got to get the social
engineers out of the educational system and get real educators back in. I
don't care if Johnny or Jill are emotionally "well adjusted" graduates able
to accept anyone who lives any sort of lifestyle and that Johnny knows that
as a male he is responsible for all of the oppression and ills of society
as it exists and that he must work to tear down the patriarchy and
male-oppression in this society all the while working to ban any sort of
technological advances in order to save the planet -- if neither of them
can read or do math they are going to become drains on society and
incapable of providing any sort of meaningful contribution beyond asking
"do you want fries with that?"

Please, note, I'm not defending NCLB; after Bush let Kennedy write the
bill and strip away the only portion that had any hope of saving education
in America (vouchers that would have instituted a competitive, truly
accountable educational system), I've seen no point in having the federal
government get involved in what should constitutionally be a state and
local issue.

.... snip


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation
who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?


A lot of it is simply due to the large population. There are way more
people now, so there's going to be a higher number of younger people who
don't know a wrench from a socket, making the problem seem epidemic.
But the actual percentage of younger people today with basic skills
probably is not too much lower than previous eras of young people. Just
higher numners now, due to the increased population.
Statistics/mathematics 101. I am 33 and all of my friends and I grew up
helping our dads put additions onto the house, wrench on the family
wagon, etc.. There were girls in our shop and wood classes. Probably
30% were girls. Plus, I took sewing!

An early 20's female friend of mine called me recently, frustrated. She
couldn't get her bed apart. She was moving. I went over there. She
was literally beating, with a hammer, the nuts and bolts holding the bed
together! "These screws won't pop off!", she said. "Um, because those
aren't screws. Even if they were screws, the way to get them out would
be to use a screwdriver. But those are nuts and bolts." So I used a
screwdriver and a 10mm wrench to remove the bolts. I tried to keep from
making fun of her utter and complete lack of even the basic mechanical
skills.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

F. George McDuffee (in )
said:

snip

| History clearly shows that any society/culture/economy where a
| majority of its people loses (or never attains) at least a basic
| level of understanding of its principal and major activities is
| doomed in the long run (and most likely in the short run) because
| they are unable to control what they have created (popularly
| termed a "Frankenstein's monster"). Failure to understand
| farming in an agricultural society, science in a technical
| society, etc. is a disaster in the making.

Agreed - but I'd like to point out that we're failing at even more
fundamental levels than you've stated:

We're not succeeding at teaching the basics of problem-solving. I'm
finding that, more and more, kids and young adults seem to have
difficulty applying knowledge they already posess to the solution of
problems they haven't confronted previously.

Our educational institutions aren't getting across to students *why*
it's important to learn what's being taught. History, for example, has
become the boring exercise of learning dates and names rather than the
adventure of discovering what mankind can/can't, must do, and must not
do in order to survive and flourish.

Too much of education is disjoint from the real world. In the past, I
occasionally taught junior high and high school math. In one school I
was told to do nothing more than baby sit an unruly seventh grade
class. The principal knew that I was a "computer guy" and suggested
that I spend the hour talking about computers to fill the time. It was
interesting that this bunch of "problem" kids, was able (in _one_
hour) to design logic for a (very basic) CPU - and they were so "into"
the process that they didn't want to stop when the bell rang. The only
possible conclusion for me was that it wasn't the kids who were the
problem.

At another high school I was called in to take over for a math teacher
who was laid up in the hospital for several weeks following an
accident. I decided to take in a "show and tell" for each topic for
all of the classes to illustrate how the stuff they were studying was
used in the real world - and encouraged questions and discussions of
the applications. It was damn near magical! The kids - all of 'em -
decided that math could be not only interesting, but fun. The
eighth-graders (studying arithmetic and geometric series) took the bit
between their teeth and galloped into differential calculus without
having a clue that's what they were doing. I feel truly sorry for all
of the math teachers who miss out on having the kind of highs I
experienced. But the important point is that all it took was providing
links between the subject matter and the real world to "set the hook."

| It does not matter if the lack of understanding occurs because of
| failure to teach and pass on hard-won knowledge, or new "things"
| are introduced into the society/culture without a basic
| understanding by the majority of the people *AND THEIR LEADERS*.

Actually, it _does_ matter if we consider it a problem and have
serious intentions about solving it.

snip

| This is yet another example, where a critical public asset or
| facility, in this case free compulsory education, has been
| hi-jacked by the elite so they can impose their ideology and skim
| the benefits (i.e. college preparatory education) while the vast
| majority is deprived of the benefits (i.e. preparation for life
| rather than for yet more education) although the majority is
| expected to keep paying [more] for it.

I'm not sure that it's been hi-jacked by the "elite". I think it's
being suffocated by apathy, mis-directed good intention, incompetence,
changes to family structure, and laziness - and I don't think it's
possible to lay the responsibility on any single grouping of people.

| The cure for this is local action, where the voters (parents)
| fire the existing school board, and where the new school board
| then fires the existing superintendents and principals, and so
| on.

Some of the above (and I'm not excluding parents) definitely need to
be replaced with better; but I have difficulty believing that what
you're advocating would amount to very much more than a bureaucratic
version of musical chairs. I think we need a better solution than
that.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple
set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.

Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track
record for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

Ron Moore wrote:
I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
When I was young, a garage full of tools and such was like a beacon in
the night. Had to look, ask questions, wanted to get to know the person and
try to learn. Nowadays, kids couldn't care less.
I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less garage
creativity is visible.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

No. I was raised completely without basic carpentry or mechanical
skills, completely without knowledge of how nature worked, of how food
got to the table. It wasn't taught at home or at school. The joke
about the VCR blinking "12:00" in perpetuity seems sad to me. READ THE
DIRECTIONS! Figure it out. Fix it. My parents seem to think that
things operate (or don't) because of some malevolent force that's out
to ruin their day. "Why isn't this stupid thing working again!!" Uhh,
because you tossed out the directions without reading them, never
maintained it and now you can't or won't investigate the problem. I
could really go on a jag, but I feel like there's a huge lack of
reality to a lot of what's taught these days. We weren't given
real-life examples of how geometry or trig could be useful - much less
calculus. It's frustrating to be learning basic skills this late in
life, and I'm still a fairly young guy.

JP

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

For you perhaps, for me, not so much.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.
That, I'll have to leave to the discretion of the individuals
involved, though I have not yet run across it in a situation that caused
any serious inconvenience.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.
I can get the oil changed in my car for about the same as it costs me
to get it done for me. I do it myself. Seen a couple botched oil plugs
from the minimum wage earners at the oil change places. They won't
cover costs on repairs or towing. All the places I buy my oil, aso
collect for no charge. In one area that I lived, this was mandated by
provincial law. In any case, there are always hazmat collection days or
dropoffs.

Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Not really. I can visually inspect the condition of the other parts
while I am so doing.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.
Same as oil. I can drop coolant at the places I buy, or send it
through a couple different routes for recycling. Doesn't cost me, but
for the time it takes.

The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Special as in a couple flex joints in the extension, or special like a
seven sided socket? FWIW I probably would not buy a special tool for
most of what I do. If the option is a $30 special tool or a bill for an
hours shop time, so they can do a twenty minute job, I'll buy the tool.

Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.
I have three vehicles right now. The low mileage one is my wifes car,
250 thousand kilometers, my car has 394 thousand, and my new truck has
341 thousand.
I just gave away a truck that had 425 thousand Km's on it. I put most
of them there. It passed a safety check a couple years back.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Not as much as paying some joker $85 an hour shop rate to do what I
can do in less time, not to mention that I don't bill out at book rate
to myself. I try to keep a straight face when I hear of guys being
quoted better than a months wages for work that takes less than a decent
days work to do. The ones that pay those rates are keeping the economy
rolling right along. :-)
I don't muck with tires much anymore, and won't touch airbags or a/c
(other than belts).
Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.
Let's not. Your money is already gone! :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor Jones said:

Specialization is for insects!

Looks like someone has been reading Robert A. Heinlein. TANSTAAFL.
Much of RAH's work should be required reading prior to reaching high
school age.

A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. Business has
been picking up greatly and we are in need of machinists. We are having very
little luck in finding qualified people and when we find someone that seems
promising, it generally turns out that they are no more than a machine
operator. Able to set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but no
more, nor do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of training
people into the position. We have gone through a number of them. Many, when
they find out that it is real work and they can't just stop thinking and
show up to work on autopilot after a month or two, either quit or become
worthless to the point that they get fired. We have two trainees in the shop
right now. One is female (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it
through high school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great learning
ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in school were
due to boredom. To get her math skills up to par, I have been giving her
homework. She has been doing quite well now that she sees a need. To bad
someone couldn't have instilled a real world need in her in school. She'd be
that much further ahead. The other trainee, a male, just out of high school,
made a comment the other day that really struck me. He said "I took
trigonometry for two years and thought it would never be good for anything.
Then, the first job I get, I need it".

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee (in )
said:


At another high school I was called in to take over for a math teacher
who was laid up in the hospital for several weeks following an
accident. I decided to take in a "show and tell" for each topic for
all of the classes to illustrate how the stuff they were studying was
used in the real world - and encouraged questions and discussions of
the applications. It was damn near magical! The kids - all of 'em -
decided that math could be not only interesting, but fun. The
eighth-graders (studying arithmetic and geometric series) took the bit
between their teeth and galloped into differential calculus without
having a clue that's what they were doing. I feel truly sorry for all
of the math teachers who miss out on having the kind of highs I
experienced. But the important point is that all it took was providing
links between the subject matter and the real world to "set the hook."

CW (in ) said:

| A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop.
| Business has been picking up greatly and we are in need of
| machinists. We are having very little luck in finding qualified
| people and when we find someone that seems promising, it generally
| turns out that they are no more than a machine operator. Able to
| set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but no more, nor
| do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of training
| people into the position. We have gone through a number of them.
| Many, when they find out that it is real work and they can't just
| stop thinking and show up to work on autopilot after a month or
| two, either quit or become worthless to the point that they get
| fired. We have two trainees in the shop right now. One is female
| (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it through high
| school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great learning
| ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in
| school were due to boredom.

I see the exact same thing. One of my discoveries has been that
enthusiasm, like love, is the outcome of an ongoing decision process.
Let me encourage you to nurture her enthusiasm and to encourage the
people around her to do the same (there are real benefits to both the
nurturer and the nurtured in this process).

| To get her math skills up to par, I
| have been giving her homework. She has been doing quite well now
| that she sees a need. To bad someone couldn't have instilled a real
| world need in her in school. She'd be that much further ahead.

I think I recall reading once that the root of "educate" was a word
meaning "to lead". Those who failed to lead her missed out on the
incredible experience of "turning the lights on" for another human
being, which - to me - is truly sad.

Good on you!

| The
| other trainee, a male, just out of high school, made a comment the
| other day that really struck me. He said "I took trigonometry for
| two years and thought it would never be good for anything. Then,
| the first job I get, I need it".

Amazing, that :-D

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:20:08 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's

That is, they're all candidates for the "B Ark"...

Retief

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:05:11 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple
set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.
Don't know where you live but I've never heard of that anywhere.


Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.

Most vehicles take 4 quarts. Cost for those and a filter about 12
bucks on sale. Cost at the quick change places about $25. There are
no corner gas stations that change oil around here.

I always do at least two cars at a time, takes about thirty minutes
total, at that rate I figure I make about $52 per hour spent. An ok
part time endeavour, and I know it is done right.

The place where I buy my oil takes the old for nothing. National
chains. Advance, Autozone, O'reillys, etc all do it here. I drop off
the old when I buy the new.

Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

City will take it. no charge. Encourage you not to send it down the
sewer.

The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Special tools? I maintain four vehicles in my family and the only
tools needed are a plug socket, extension, swivel and a rachet.
Those transverse V6 engines offer a challenge for the back plugs but
can be done.

Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

My four vehicles currently average 140K. I do almost all the work on
them.

Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track
record for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

The only issue today is having to buy an OBD II scan tool. But even
those are not terribly expensive, and all the parts stores have them
to use if you can get the vehicle to the store. May loan them out.

Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Well, never have done that with a diesel, but I kept an old Universal
Atomic Four going for about 16 years in my last sailboat. Talk about
a simple engine.

However, in the spirit of the original post, my sons do very little,
and I don't know why they never took to it.

Lew

Guess it would be nice to see their basements, or even a workshop ????

Ace
"Ron Moore" wrote in message
news:9B2Bg.1769$uW1.885@dukeread06...
I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
When I was young, a garage full of tools and such was like a beacon in
the night. Had to look, ask questions, wanted to get to know the person
and try to learn. Nowadays, kids couldn't care less.
I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less
garage creativity is visible.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:20:21 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

He said "I took
trigonometry for two years and thought it would never be good for anything.

===================
Exactly the same reaction I got from both high-school [release
time / concurrent] students and people who have been out of
school for a while [work force development] when we get into
using a sine bar to set/determine angles and do simple
calculations such as helix angles in the machining classes.

Just how good can something be where you have to have a special
police force to round people up and laws to imprison/fine their
parents to get them to attend? It is the total lack of "hands on
examples" and "contextualization" that is killing our educational
system and it will continue to do so no matter how many times we
make the students pee in a bottle, how many dress codes we
impose, or how many uniforms we make them wear.

Slogans and endless repeating has not sold high cost, low quality
Detroit cars and it won't sell high cost, low quality education
to the students either, although it may keep the tax money
flowing from Washington.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

....and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
“A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.”

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 14:38:51 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

We have gotten to the point of training
| people into the position. We have gone through a number of them.
| Many, when they find out that it is real work and they can't just
| stop thinking and show up to work on autopilot after a month or
| two, either quit or become worthless to the point that they get
| fired.
=====================
This is becase the students are doing what they were
trained/educated to do -- exactly what they were told -- no more
and no less. If you were looking for machine loaders/operators
this would be what you were looking for.

Unfortunatly, you are expecting trainee machinists with
initative, curosity, interest in a manual trade/activity, and a
willingness to experiment. Students are quickly "cured" of these
traits or are kicked out of school for being "disruptive."

Try posting your help wanted notices in places where the type of
person you are interested in is likely to be, such as auto parts
stores, hardware stores, machine supply stores, etc. Gun ranges
can also be productive. Also talk to the machine shop
instructors [*NOT* the department/division heads] at your local
community colleges. They will generally have several people in
their classes which have talent, interest and the right attitude.




Unka George
(George McDuffee)

....and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
“A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.”

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

I would mention that those men who can do even the most basic of work,
whether on the home or car, are richly rewarded by all the women who love
being with someone who is 'handy'.

Examples: I changed an alternator in the parking lot of the Autozone in
less time than the guy next to me took to replace his windshield wipers, and
the woman I did this for couldn't wait to richly reward me for being so
skilled. I nailed up a soffet vent that had come loose for my neighbor, and
got a delicious cherry pie. I swapped out a ceiling fan for a sales rep and
the woman told everyone at work what a great guy I was, "...and so handy,
too"

I think its a code word...

I used these stories to convince my son to learn how to do this stuff, and
recently he replaced a hood release cable for a girl in his dorm. He told
me that she was very grateful, but he wouldn't share the details wih his old
man...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

Well my son can use the Yellow Pages and write checks. He know what a
hammer is, but does not have the desire to find out which end does what
functions.


True story:

Was visiting my aunt Prudence (that's her true name, too) and she had us all
doing errands at the mall while she bought groceries. I got to go to the
hardware store for something-or-other. I noticed a lady asking the clerk
something and as I passed by I overheard him say "Those are what we call
hammers, ma'am."

The best part was the _absolutely_ neutral tone of voice he used; give that
guy a raise.

Good for you and/or your employer.

Just another view on the subject of education. Say you have a very
lucrative hand assembly job for some of your machined components, but the
actual procedure is so simple/boring that 'nobody in their right mind' would
sit there all day doing it.

Will you insist on the person you hire for the job have math skills, etc, or
would you settle for someone with a somewhat lower IQ who would be very
happy to sit there all day? In other words, what happens to the individuals
who don't happen to have the intellectual capacity on par with your top
machinists?

Are they to be forever 'held back' in school till they become laughing stock
of their so called class mates? Or should they be given a 'lower' grade,
and proceed along with their friends/peers and ultimately enter society with
some sense of dignity, get that boring assembly job you have and work
tirelessly etc. for you?

I saw a scenario similar to this happen. After a employee was pestered for
so long, he did quit...... It took four(4) other employees to do the same
job, each only able to tolerate it for about 2 hours. Oh well............

Ace

"CW" wrote in message
.net...
A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. Business has
been picking up greatly and we are in need of machinists. We are having
very

Snippity snip, etc....

The sad thing is, most of these young people don't realize they're
deficient. You can always spot this when one of them asks: "is this
something *I* can do?" which shows they have NO idea what the project
requires or what they may may be able to contribute to it, skill-wise. Sad.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT


Repair jobs challenge young homeowners By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National
Writer
Thu Aug 3

The staff at his neighborhood hardware store can spot John Carter from
a distance.

He's the slightly befuddled guy who often comes in declaring, "I have
no idea what I'm doing. Can you at least get me through tonight?"

The 26-year-old Chicagoan, who's been slowly rehabbing the condo he
bought last year, is part of a generation of young homeowners who admit
they often have no clue how to handle home projects.

For them, shop class was optional. It also was more common for their
parents to hire contractors, leaving fewer opportunities for them to
learn basic repair skills.

With low interest rates allowing more young adults to buy property in
recent years, many inexperienced homeowners are desperate for advice
when the furnace goes out, the roof leaks or when a home project that
seemed like a no-brainer goes terribly wrong.

"They know they've got to buy real estate; they know it's a good
investment. But that doesn't help you when you swing a hammer and hit a
pipe in the wall," says Lou Manfredini, a Chicago hardware store owner
who gives do-it-yourself advice on local radio and nationally online
and on TV. "Unfortunately, homes don't come with an instruction
manual."

Contractors say it's not unusual for them to get frantic calls from
young do-it-yourselfers who get in over their heads.

Sometimes, the mistakes are silly.

Michel Hanet, who owns a door replacement business called IDRC in
Scottsdale, Ariz., has arrived at homes to find doors hung upside down.
He's also discovered more than one sliding pocket door that won't open
because someone nailed a picture on the wall and into the door.

"The younger generation are more likely the ones that are getting into
trouble," Hanet says. "The baby boomers have the money to do it, so
they just call and say 'I don't like my doors; just come and replace
them.'"

Kirsten Pellicer, the 30-year-old vice president of Ace hardware stores
in Longmont and Boulder, Colo., sees many young customers looking to
tackle projects on their own, often to save money.

"We rarely get requests for 'Do you know a good handyman?' from the
younger set," she says.

For Carter, the young Chicagoan, it's all about being brave enough to
try - and sometimes fail.

With the help of a buddy who has rehabbing experience, he's put in
hardwood floors, knocked out a wall and completely remodeled his condo
kitchen.

In the process, he's also managed to nearly flood the kitchen after
forgetting to completely seal off a refrigerator water line; had a
sliding closet door he was installing shatter a light bulb over his
head and crash on top of him; and been fined by his condo association
for a couple of other mishaps.

"The one thing about home remodeling is that it is intimidating. But in
the end, you find it's definitely worthwhile," says Carter, whose day
job is at a large accounting firm where he secures computerized
financial data. "You just have to accept that you're going to screw
up."

Dave Payne, a 26-year-old condo owner in suburban Atlanta, knows what
he means.

Payne made the mistake of trying to spackle over wallpaper in his condo
bathroom, leaving uneven chunks where the wallpaper pulled away from
the wall.

"There were just times when I wanted to pull my hair out and hire
someone when I looked at my ruined walls," he says.

But after hours of "spackling, sanding, spackling again, sanding again,
then priming," he's hoping no one will notice.

Increasingly, hardware professionals and others are addressing the need
for know-how.

Some community colleges and stores such as Lowe's and Home Depot offer
classes in projects from changing a faucet to tiling and putting in a
dimmer switch.

"It gives them some exposure, so if they want to do it on their own,
they have a starting point," says Peter Marx, a remodeling contractor
who teaches home repair at North Seattle Community College.

Others find help online, including at the Ace site, where Manfredini
- the Chicago hardware store owner - answers questions.

Home-centered television networks, including HGTV, are also in vogue.
HGTV executives say shows such as "Design on a Dime" and "What's Your
Sign? Design" - a show that builds on the unlikely combination of
astrology and home decorating - have helped boost its recent ratings
among young adults.

While 27-year-old Amy Choate occasionally goes online or watches TV
shows to get home-improvement ideas, more often she uses a resource
closer to home: her mom.

Among other things, mom showed her how to fix wall cracks in her
Chicago condo.

But Choate has no intention of tackling an upcoming kitchen rehab.
She'll leave that to a professional.

"I'd probably do it wrong," she says, "and end up paying twice as
much."

___

On the Net:

Answers (at) Ace: http://www.acehardware.com

Home Depot clinics: http://www.homedepotclinics.com/

Lowe's clinics:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...SchedProcessor



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Frank Boettcher wrote:

Don't know where you live but I've never heard of that anywhere.

If it interests you, start checking around.

Most vehicles take 4 quarts. Cost for those and a filter about 12
bucks on sale. Cost at the quick change places about $25. There are
no corner gas stations that change oil around here.

Even my little Tonka Toy truck uses 6 qts with a filter change.

Must be a very small vehicle.

Around here, $15 gets an oil & filter change when they run a sale, but
haven't checked since crude hit $75/bbl.

Special tools? I maintain four vehicles in my family and the only
tools needed are a plug socket, extension, swivel and a rachet.

You obviously never worked on Volkswagons, especially the diesel ones,
the little buggers damn near require a special tool to pop the hood.

My four vehicles currently average 140K. I do almost all the work on
them.

It is obviously a labor of love.

However, in the spirit of the original post, my sons do very little,
and I don't know why they never took to it.

They are obviously smart enough to have found what they consider more
productive ways to spend their free time than being a weekend grease
monkey.

Give them credit.

Everybody adopts what works for them.

Today, I'd rather make sawdust than spend time trying to get the
grease out from my fingernails (even with gloves) after trying to mess
with a vehicle.

Lew

I have to mildly disagree with the originaly sentiment. I go to garage
sales often, and I do see many garages with tools and machinery. Just
recently I bought a huge kiln from such a garage (resold for 8x what I
paid), or a big shop compressor (which I kept), etc. There are people
out there with interesting stuff, although they are a clear minority.

Just today I saw someone selling 1-2-3 blocks, machinist vise etc. (he
wanted too much for his stuff, e.g., $35 for a 1 hp motor with bad
bearings)

i

We're in Oklahoma. VERY few basements because of the water table.
Definitely none in the neighborhoods I referred to.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"Bonehenge" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:14:11 -0500, "Ron Moore"
wrote:

I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be?

Maybe they have a basement?

True, there are some bastions of creativity out there still. Not many in
this area. Mostly I see a benchtop drill press, a plastic table saw and a
few hand tools. Maybe an RAS. Nothing wrong with this picture if it's
being used. Too many times around here, it's either brand new (and been
that way for a while) or hasn't been used for many years. Maybe we just
don't take time to use the tools we have available. Too hot, too tired, two
jobs, etc. It's true, there out there. Just not that often. In other
parts of the country, machinery is much more prevalent.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore
Oklahoma

"Ignoramus8770" wrote in message
.. .
I have to mildly disagree with the originaly sentiment. I go to garage
sales often, and I do see many garages with tools and machinery. Just
recently I bought a huge kiln from such a garage (resold for 8x what I
paid), or a big shop compressor (which I kept), etc. There are people
out there with interesting stuff, although they are a clear minority.

Just today I saw someone selling 1-2-3 blocks, machinist vise etc. (he
wanted too much for his stuff, e.g., $35 for a 1 hp motor with bad
bearings)

i

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every
"Man of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build
items from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every
garage in the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a
work shop, storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms
and a maid's quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2
bedroom 1 bath house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not
having some kind of work area or work shop.

don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:jz4Bg.155296$I61.114205@clgrps13...
Lew Hodgett wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh
basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.
snip

It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
specialized equipment.

Few doctors make house calls any more.

Might find it a little difficult to raise and butcher your own hogs in
most places where people live these days.

Times change, people change, the skills required to live in a modern
society keep changing.

Think the process is called "life".

Lew

Lew, I'll call BS on the "impossible to work on cars without specialized
equipment"

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

Those are the stuff that make the bread and butter money for the dealers.
They are also the things that the average driver should be quite able to
recognize while they are starting to fail, too.

Even simple stuff like changing a flat seems to stump people these days.

Advanced diagnostics on the emissions control stuff is only a little more
difficult, now that most manufacturers are using somewhat standardized on
board diagnostics (OBD)in the computers. A simple code reader and reset
tool can be got for way less than $100, and you can get a very nice
diagnostic tool for less than the price of a set of good tires. Most OBD
systems allow you to read the codes without tools, if you know how (hint:
the manuals usually list the codes and tell how to get them)

Specialization is for insects!

Robert Heinlen I beleive.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

F. George McDuffee (in )
said:

snip

| History clearly shows that any society/culture/economy where a
| majority of its people loses (or never attains) at least a basic
| level of understanding of its principal and major activities is
| doomed in the long run (and most likely in the short run) because
| they are unable to control what they have created (popularly
| termed a "Frankenstein's monster"). Failure to understand
| farming in an agricultural society, science in a technical
| society, etc. is a disaster in the making.

Agreed - but I'd like to point out that we're failing at even more
fundamental levels than you've stated:

We're not succeeding at teaching the basics of problem-solving. I'm
finding that, more and more, kids and young adults seem to have
difficulty applying knowledge they already posess to the solution of
problems they haven't confronted previously.

Our educational institutions aren't getting across to students *why*
it's important to learn what's being taught. History, for example, has
become the boring exercise of learning dates and names rather than the
adventure of discovering what mankind can/can't, must do, and must not
do in order to survive and flourish.

Too much of education is disjoint from the real world. In the past, I
occasionally taught junior high and high school math. In one school I
was told to do nothing more than baby sit an unruly seventh grade
class. The principal knew that I was a "computer guy" and suggested
that I spend the hour talking about computers to fill the time. It was
interesting that this bunch of "problem" kids, was able (in _one_
hour) to design logic for a (very basic) CPU - and they were so "into"
the process that they didn't want to stop when the bell rang. The only
possible conclusion for me was that it wasn't the kids who were the
problem.

At another high school I was called in to take over for a math teacher
who was laid up in the hospital for several weeks following an
accident. I decided to take in a "show and tell" for each topic for
all of the classes to illustrate how the stuff they were studying was
used in the real world - and encouraged questions and discussions of
the applications. It was damn near magical! The kids - all of 'em -
decided that math could be not only interesting, but fun. The
eighth-graders (studying arithmetic and geometric series) took the bit
between their teeth and galloped into differential calculus without
having a clue that's what they were doing. I feel truly sorry for all
of the math teachers who miss out on having the kind of highs I
experienced. But the important point is that all it took was providing
links between the subject matter and the real world to "set the hook."

| It does not matter if the lack of understanding occurs because of
| failure to teach and pass on hard-won knowledge, or new "things"
| are introduced into the society/culture without a basic
| understanding by the majority of the people *AND THEIR LEADERS*.

Actually, it _does_ matter if we consider it a problem and have
serious intentions about solving it.

snip

| This is yet another example, where a critical public asset or
| facility, in this case free compulsory education, has been
| hi-jacked by the elite so they can impose their ideology and skim
| the benefits (i.e. college preparatory education) while the vast
| majority is deprived of the benefits (i.e. preparation for life
| rather than for yet more education) although the majority is
| expected to keep paying [more] for it.

I'm not sure that it's been hi-jacked by the "elite". I think it's
being suffocated by apathy, mis-directed good intention, incompetence,
changes to family structure, and laziness - and I don't think it's
possible to lay the responsibility on any single grouping of people.

| The cure for this is local action, where the voters (parents)
| fire the existing school board, and where the new school board
| then fires the existing superintendents and principals, and so
| on.

Some of the above (and I'm not excluding parents) definitely need to
be replaced with better; but I have difficulty believing that what
you're advocating would amount to very much more than a bureaucratic
version of musical chairs. I think we need a better solution than
that.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto


I believe the most important skill to teach is problem solving and research
skills.With these 2 skills a person can learn anything.You cannot instill in
a person all the knowledge they will need,No 2 people have the need for all
the same knowledge.I guess the best way to put it is like my old drill
sergeant said...."adapt and overcome".We must teach our children to "adapt
and overcome" problems and challenges.

"CW" wrote in message
.net...
A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. Business has
been picking up greatly and we are in need of machinists. We are having
very
little luck in finding qualified people and when we find someone that
seems
promising, it generally turns out that they are no more than a machine
operator. Able to set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but
no
more, nor do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of
training
people into the position. We have gone through a number of them. Many,
when
they find out that it is real work and they can't just stop thinking and
show up to work on autopilot after a month or two, either quit or become
worthless to the point that they get fired. We have two trainees in the
shop
right now. One is female (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it
through high school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great
learning
ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in school
were
due to boredom. To get her math skills up to par, I have been giving her
homework. She has been doing quite well now that she sees a need. To bad
someone couldn't have instilled a real world need in her in school. She'd
be
that much further ahead. The other trainee, a male, just out of high
school,
made a comment the other day that really struck me. He said "I took
trigonometry for two years and thought it would never be good for
anything.
Then, the first job I get, I need it".

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee (in )
said:


At another high school I was called in to take over for a math teacher
who was laid up in the hospital for several weeks following an
accident. I decided to take in a "show and tell" for each topic for
all of the classes to illustrate how the stuff they were studying was
used in the real world - and encouraged questions and discussions of
the applications. It was damn near magical! The kids - all of 'em -
decided that math could be not only interesting, but fun. The
eighth-graders (studying arithmetic and geometric series) took the bit
between their teeth and galloped into differential calculus without
having a clue that's what they were doing. I feel truly sorry for all
of the math teachers who miss out on having the kind of highs I
experienced. But the important point is that all it took was providing
links between the subject matter and the real world to "set the hook."


I have an excellent book I got in trade school called "Mathematics for the
trades".It puts every problem in real world terms.For example how many
pieces 27 inches long can be cut from a 20 foot length of bar?
This book really makes a huge difference in how I understood mathematics.