Wish I still had the one I had in school. It was along the same line but was
machine shop specific. Published in the thirties, I believe. The school had
it reprinted for them. The best of it's kind I've seen. Technology has
changed but math hasn't.

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...
I have an excellent book I got in trade school called "Mathematics for the
trades".It puts every problem in real world terms.For example how many
pieces 27 inches long can be cut from a 20 foot length of bar?
This book really makes a huge difference in how I understood mathematics.

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:43:22 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

I would mention that those men who can do even the most basic of work,
whether on the home or car, are richly rewarded by all the women who love
being with someone who is 'handy'.

Examples: I changed an alternator in the parking lot of the Autozone in
less time than the guy next to me took to replace his windshield wipers, and
the woman I did this for couldn't wait to richly reward me for being so
skilled. I nailed up a soffet vent that had come loose for my neighbor, and
got a delicious cherry pie. I swapped out a ceiling fan for a sales rep and
the woman told everyone at work what a great guy I was, "...and so handy,
too"

I think its a code word...

I used these stories to convince my son to learn how to do this stuff,

Now that was clever. Your son was lucky to have someone to teach him.

and
recently he replaced a hood release cable for a girl in his dorm. He told
me that she was very grateful, but he wouldn't share the details wih his old
man...

Lucky you. My son was always willing to share with me. TMI.
Sue

On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

A miracle! We agree on something. Great.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:26:45 -0500, Retief wrote:

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:20:08 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's

That is, they're all candidates for the "B Ark"...

?

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:31:04 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.
snip

It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
specialized equipment.

Few doctors make house calls any more.

Might find it a little difficult to raise and butcher your own hogs in
most places where people live these days.

Times change, people change, the skills required to live in a modern
society keep changing.

Think the process is called "life".

No, it is called "post-modern" life. What happens when
post-modern life suddenly and unexpectedly becomes
post-post-modern life? COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

digitalmaster wrote:
Specialization is for insects!


Robert Heinlen I beleive.

I beleive so. Part of a long winded rant about all the things a person
should be able to do or at least be willing to try, given the opportunity.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?

Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else do it.

Lew

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Wish I still had the one I had in school. It was along the same line but
was
machine shop specific. Published in the thirties, I believe. The school
had
it reprinted for them. The best of it's kind I've seen. Technology has
changed but math hasn't.

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...
I have an excellent book I got in trade school called "Mathematics for
the
trades".It puts every problem in real world terms.For example how many
pieces 27 inches long can be cut from a 20 foot length of bar?
This book really makes a huge difference in how I understood mathematics.




I used to be a supervisor at a shop building custom bakery equipment.We had
a little test to see if someone could read a tape measure.Out of 12 high
school graduate applicants only 2 could find 1/4 on the tape measure.

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:19:42 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:

Don't know where you live but I've never heard of that anywhere.

If it interests you, start checking around.

I think it is poppycock, but I know it's not true in Boston, Philly,
Houston, Tulsa, Mineapolis, Birmingham, and anywhere else I've ever
lived or have relatives living. Please, you made the claim, tell us
where you are restricted from working on your car. By who, the
government?

Most vehicles take 4 quarts. Cost for those and a filter about 12
bucks on sale. Cost at the quick change places about $25. There are
no corner gas stations that change oil around here.

Even my little Tonka Toy truck uses 6 qts with a filter change.

Tonka toy? Please tell us what vehicle you have or know of that,
without an extended pan, uses six quarts. I'm curious.
Must be a very small vehicle.

Average.

Around here, $15 gets an oil & filter change when they run a sale, but
haven't checked since crude hit $75/bbl.

Where is here. Maybe I need to move there. At that rate, labor and
overhead are free.

Special tools? I maintain four vehicles in my family and the only
tools needed are a plug socket, extension, swivel and a rachet.

You obviously never worked on Volkswagons, especially the diesel ones,
the little buggers damn near require a special tool to pop the hood.

Yes, I have, but not recently.

My four vehicles currently average 140K. I do almost all the work on
them.

It is obviously a labor of love.

No, a matter of wanting it done right and not paying a fortune to have
it done wrong.

However, in the spirit of the original post, my sons do very little,
and I don't know why they never took to it.

They are obviously smart enough to have found what they consider more
productive ways to spend their free time than being a weekend grease
monkey.
They are very smart, however, I hope they will eventually learn that a
little elbow grease will save them a lot of money.


Give them credit.

Everybody adopts what works for them.

Today, I'd rather make sawdust than spend time trying to get the
grease out from my fingernails (even with gloves) after trying to mess
with a vehicle.

I do both.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO

IMHO, TOTALLY incorrect.

New cars are easier to fix than the old stuff ever was (and need a lot less
of it) and the service garages are MUCH more expensive than they used to be.
Most of the dealer shops (and the franchise specialty garages) are staffed
with apprentice parts changers (not mechanics) who have no diagnostic skills
or inclination. They just keep on changing expensive parts till the
problem stops. The self serve scrap yards are a source of very cheap used
parts and the jobber parts stores sell parts of as good or far better
quality than the dealer for a fraction of the price, and often give parts
warranties that you can actually collect on. When a garage fails to fix a
problem usually YOU just keep paying them more and more until they (or
another shop) get it right.

When you buy ANY service,
- You are paying an inflated price (often for parts that are never installed
on your vehicle) + overhead + an excessive markup + lots of hidden taxes
plus added sales taxes AND you are paying in after income tax paid dollars.

When you DIY,
- You are paying wholesale, for only the parts you need, are saving ALL the
sales and other taxes on labor and overhead AND you do not pay any income or
sales tax on YOUR labor OR on the cash you save.

- You also do not need to have the work done at the shops convenience or
travel to (and from, TWICE) the shop for delivery and pickup, or to leave
the vehicle for several days. You do not need to wash grease off the
steering wheel and seats and fenders or clean out food scraps and garbage or
cigarette burns and smoke and butts and ashes.

- AND the chances are better that the job will be done right.

- And when you DIY you can watch for and keep track of the preventative
maintenance that will prevent the need for repairs (and towing) caused by
breakdown.

Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.


BOAT = break out another thousand.

just my .02 YMMV

"Ron Moore" wrote in message
I have noticed that the more expensive the neighborhood, the less garage
creativity is visible.

Of course, someone will mention that they might have a workshop in the
basement, but it makes me think of the house forsale ads that I read on
occasion. Almost all of them advertise completely finished basements with a
nanny suite or an inlaw apartment. Never have I seen mention of a house with
workshop space in the basement.

Should I buy a house one of these days, I'm going to have trouble finding
what I want because I'll be looking for a house with an unfinished or
partially finished basement, naturally for a workshop.

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

A miracle! We agree on something. Great.

I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a society
options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to assess and remediate
problems.

Jeff

Frank Boettcher wrote:


I think it is poppycock, but I know it's not true in Boston, Philly,
Houston, Tulsa, Mineapolis, Birmingham, and anywhere else I've ever
lived or have relatives living. Please, you made the claim, tell us
where you are restricted from working on your car. By who, the
government?

I'm in Southern California.

City ordinance or owner(s) if it is a condo or owner if a rental property.

A lot of it depends on location.

Tonka toy? Please tell us what vehicle you have or know of that,
without an extended pan, uses six quarts. I'm curious.

A 4 cyl, Toyota Tacoma pick up truck, AKA: Tonka Toy.

Lew

That explains a lot. The PRC (Peoples Republic of California) can be
excluded when talking about normal circumstances.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
news
Frank Boettcher wrote:

I'm in Southern California.

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:


Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?


Our culture, such as it is, informs our children that working with
their hands is beneath them and that self reliance is no more than
knowing which phone number to call when you need something.

It takes some strong involvement on a parent's part to expose children
to the joys of doing for yourself; the joys of making, rather than
managing, and the satisfaction to be gained from having a basic
understanding of the things that inhabit and sometimes seem to
overwhelm our day to day lives.

In a society that seems to be so focused on happiness as a result of
the acquisition of objects, one would think that simple curiosity
about the making and maintenance of those objects would drive people
to gain some knowledge in those areas.

Apparently not.

It's having the bling, rather than making it that drives them.

We've managed to outsource our contact with the fundamental
necessities of life in the current age - much to our eventual peril,
I'm afraid.

I can see the next edition of the Foxfire series dealing with how the
old dudes managed to set up their own Wireless Internet connections,
changed their own light bulbs, cleaned their own gutters, and just
maybe - wiped their own ass.

Not that I'm cynical.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Often heard phrase: "you can't make one of those, you have to buy 'em".
I really shouldn't complain. I make a living making things for those that
can't.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:


Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?


Our culture, such as it is, informs our children that working with
their hands is beneath them and that self reliance is no more than
knowing which phone number to call when you need something.

It takes some strong involvement on a parent's part to expose children
to the joys of doing for yourself; the joys of making, rather than
managing, and the satisfaction to be gained from having a basic
understanding of the things that inhabit and sometimes seem to
overwhelm our day to day lives.

In a society that seems to be so focused on happiness as a result of
the acquisition of objects, one would think that simple curiosity
about the making and maintenance of those objects would drive people
to gain some knowledge in those areas.

Apparently not.

It's having the bling, rather than making it that drives them.

We've managed to outsource our contact with the fundamental
necessities of life in the current age - much to our eventual peril,
I'm afraid.

I can see the next edition of the Foxfire series dealing with how the
old dudes managed to set up their own Wireless Internet connections,
changed their own light bulbs, cleaned their own gutters, and just
maybe - wiped their own ass.

Not that I'm cynical.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...

don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.


That's not entirely true. The builder can build the house cheaper with a
plain two car garage. How many people actually only store only their cars
in their garages?

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:09:55 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's

That is, they're all candidates for the "B Ark"...

?

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

The working people and scientists put all of the marketing people,
telephone sanitizers and their ilk on the "B Ark", because "a
catastrophy was going to destroy the planet", and launched them all
out into space... (and the remaining 2/3 of the population stayed on
the planet, because no such disaster was imminent

Retief

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?

Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else do it.

No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief

Retief wrote:

No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

I have a fraternity brother who built a rather successful consulting
engineering business.

We were having lunch one day when he told me he was going to fold up
the business.

I asked him "Why".

His answer, "I'm getting tired of having to take everybody to the
bathroom and hold their swantz while they do their business."

I understood.

Basic reason I run a one man band.

Lew

It came evident when the basic mom wanted a rocket scientist or Doctor / Lawyer as a son/daughter.
The schools were being and are still being hammered on numbers - those that
go to college are value, those that get trade jobs are nothing - just like dropouts.
So money and care to trade classes went to lit and social classes - every one needed to read....
Power base shift from life to socialism. As some of these children
moved into higher education and into jobs - they found being able to think, sit, walk, work,
learn-on-the-fly and under pressure - was getting harder - it was done for themselves.

Those with skills continued to thrive as they fed both business and now a larger base of need.

My wife has a tool box. I keep it stocked the tools and such that we need for the house - and
bought her a nice Dewalt screwdriver - that she drills and screws into the house at will. I introduced
the 60 and 100# wallboard hanger - so now she is doing her thing and using me as needed.
Now I have a willing and trained - yes I helped her do it at first - when I need help.

My object in this was simple. A friend of mine lost his dad. The mother didn't know how to
pay bills, ........fix anything... and lost most of here money in a money shuffle stock manager...

I decided to get my wife geared in such a way she could run the house and her life as needed.
I was flying all over the world and working 10 miles from a 'firing range' or cease fire line
as it is really called. Flying into 5 countries in two days and driving in foreign countries
trying to save some company or someones job. I almost didn't come back on one trip and another
it was an emergency recall from France to Switzerland to L.A. (non-stop) to San Jose - with 2 hours
between planes in Switzerland. Swiss Air did a wonderful thing by routing me on a special plane
they had going.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
http://lufkinced.com/


Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more
"fragile" it becomes.

TMT

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:


It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily
concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of
real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do
icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's
world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as
the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages,
data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking,
entertainment, lawyering, etc.).

A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think
about, is -- what skills might be needed in a
post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we
meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us
to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which
people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any
society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the
more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of
real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is
to suffer a catastrophic collapse.

Fun, huh???

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/



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On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:56:49 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


Blame the home builder. The last 4 homes that I have lived in have had
garages only big enough for cars. When I was a kid I recall most every "Man
of the house" was able to change a tire, make minor repairs and build items
from wood. This neighborhood was built just after WWII and every garage in
the neighborhood had at least 1 additional room attached for a work shop,
storage, and in my case the garage had 2 extra storage rooms and a maid's
quarters. All this detached from the main 1,200 sq. ft. 2 bedroom 1 bath
house. I do not recall any of these extra garage rooms not having some kind
of work area or work shop.


And home owner associations that forbid you from even leaving your
garage door open for more than 30 minutes.

A house in most new developments is no longer a home..but a place to
sleep, and park your fat ass in front of the TV


Gunner

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:49:02 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:

I have three vehicles right now. The low mileage one is my wifes car,
250 thousand kilometers, my car has 394 thousand, and my new truck has
341 thousand.
I just gave away a truck that had 425 thousand Km's on it. I put most
of them there. It passed a safety check a couple years back.

My daily driver...94 Mazda B3000/Ford Ranger has 421,000 MILES on it.

I just hauled home a 800lb air compressor and next weekend..a 2000 lb
milling machine

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:20:21 GMT, "CW" wrote:

A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. Business has
been picking up greatly and we are in need of machinists. We are having very
little luck in finding qualified people and when we find someone that seems
promising, it generally turns out that they are no more than a machine
operator. Able to set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but no
more, nor do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of training
people into the position. We have gone through a number of them. Many, when
they find out that it is real work and they can't just stop thinking and
show up to work on autopilot after a month or two, either quit or become
worthless to the point that they get fired. We have two trainees in the shop
right now. One is female (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it
through high school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great learning
ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in school were
due to boredom. To get her math skills up to par, I have been giving her
homework. She has been doing quite well now that she sees a need. To bad
someone couldn't have instilled a real world need in her in school. She'd be
that much further ahead. The other trainee, a male, just out of high school,
made a comment the other day that really struck me. He said "I took
trigonometry for two years and thought it would never be good for anything.
Then, the first job I get, I need it".

Im a CNC machine tool repair guy. I front for a couple manufactures, do
repair of their machines, do infrastructure repair (air/electical etc
etc) and there are two types of "machinist".

1. Actually involved in setting up and performing operations, able to do
design and determine if the machine is optimal etc etc

2. Button pushers. Somone who loads parts, pushes a button, takes
measurements, maybe changes offsets, but basically a human parts loader.

#1 is very very hard to find
#2 is very very easy to find, and in Southern California..is nearly 50%
female, with many learning to be rated in Catagory #1

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else do it.

No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

"Jeff McCann" wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the
more "fragile" it becomes.

A miracle! We agree on something. Great.

I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a
society options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to assess
and remediate problems.

Jeff




And if the electricity goes out for six months or even six weeks?

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
And if the electricity goes out for six months or even six weeks?

Swelter in the apartment without air conditioning. Start suffering from
dehydration because the water pumps to the roof water towers have shut off,
suffer a heart attack going down 17 flights of stars because the elevators
aren't working, break a leg in the taxi cab after the accident because all
the stop lights are out, die in the hospital parking lot from a stroke
because the emergency is packed and the intern working on you in the taxicab
back seat can't properly work a manual blood pressure gauge.

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:


SNIP

In
addition to creating a generation that has no knowledge of how
things work, the abolition of the vocational classes has lead to
a huge upsurge in male dropouts who were attending school only
for the vocational classes.

SNIP

Oh my God! Does this mean all my woodshop classes for next year
(2006-07) at the high school where I teach have been dropped? Does this
mean I am now out of work? Are my fellow IA teachers who teach masonry,
auto shop and computer repair also out of work? Do we now hold our
department meetings at the unemployment office?

The scenario you present might be true in some places, but not in all.
I have been asked (along with a few of my cohorts)to work on a funding
grant to expand our vocational offerings in our school, and maybe the
district as a whole.

Glen

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:V7hBg.2535$7m5.1154@trnddc05...
"Jeff McCann" wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I think you have a good point Robert.

In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the
more "fragile" it becomes.

A miracle! We agree on something. Great.

I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a
society options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to assess
and remediate problems.

Jeff




And if the electricity goes out for six months or even six weeks?

You mean like it did here after the last hurricane? No problem; my
generator worked fine.

Jeff

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...

don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what
sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have
them.


That's not entirely true. The builder can build the house cheaper with a
plain two car garage. How many people actually only store only their cars
in their garages?

And he can sell it cheaper...The market is driven by the buyer.If more
people are willing to pay for a shop more builders will build houses with a
shop.If most people do not want to pay extra for a shop they are not
built.Builders try to build what sells.

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:20:21 GMT, "CW" wrote:

A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. Business has
been picking up greatly and we are in need of machinists. We are having
very
little luck in finding qualified people and when we find someone that seems
promising, it generally turns out that they are no more than a machine
operator. Able to set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but no
more, nor do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of training
people into the position. We have gone through a number of them. Many, when
they find out that it is real work and they can't just stop thinking and
show up to work on autopilot after a month or two, either quit or become
worthless to the point that they get fired. We have two trainees in the
shop
right now. One is female (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it
through high school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great
learning
ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in school
were
due to boredom. To get her math skills up to par, I have been giving her
homework. She has been doing quite well now that she sees a need. To bad
someone couldn't have instilled a real world need in her in school. She'd
be
that much further ahead. The other trainee, a male, just out of high
school,
made a comment the other day that really struck me. He said "I took
trigonometry for two years and thought it would never be good for anything.
Then, the first job I get, I need it".

Im a CNC machine tool repair guy. I front for a couple manufactures, do
repair of their machines, do infrastructure repair (air/electical etc
etc) and there are two types of "machinist".

1. Actually involved in setting up and performing operations, able to do
design and determine if the machine is optimal etc etc

2. Button pushers. Somone who loads parts, pushes a button, takes
measurements, maybe changes offsets, but basically a human parts loader.

#1 is very very hard to find
#2 is very very easy to find, and in Southern California..is nearly 50%
female, with many learning to be rated in Catagory #1

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Too_Many_Tools wrote:


etc etc.

Ok, started reading this at reply 70 (or something like that) , so,
firing up my Beta copy of MS RANT, here is my contribution.

RANT
ON................................................ ..............................

I am in agreement with everyone. Its all stuffed becasue the Youth of
Today are slack, cant drive a nail, butcher a hog, build their own 4
engine heavy bomber etc - all the stuff WE did as kids. (yeh, sure....)

And I bet they dont have to walk to school, barefoot, through the snow,
with only a pointy stick to protect themselves against wolves......

Get real, people. Its ALWAYS been like this - we are a bunch of Old
Farts who get the ****s because our 10yo grandchildren can program our
cellphones, but we cant. I think Socrates or Aristotle wrote about this
a few thousand years ago. Nothings changed.

This group is devoted to people like us, it self-selects people who
like building things (with machine tools), who take great pride in hard
learned skills, and yet are slightly AMAZED that the rest of the world
doesnt find them at all interesting. Funny that. Wonder why?

So, dont take it too seriously - what will get us all in the end is
collapse of the basic infrastructure that allows us (among other
things) to sit in front of our PC's and have mad rants like this.
Loosen up, lighten up - just because we are not awash with competent
machinists or skilled artisans doesnt mean that society is ruined.

So........

RANT
OFF............................................... ..................................

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

I grew up around an uncle who literally rebuilt his entire house. He
knows how to do it all. I helped some while growing up, but looked at
all as grunt work and took no interest in watching what the man was
doing.

I'm paying for that now. There are some projects I'll take on, but I
regret not taking a bigger interest in what could have been a great
learning experience.

So at times, I have to grudgingly call in a guy - an electrician,
plumber or carpenter to do things I wish I could.

On the other hand, I haven't owned a home in years, so had no real
need to fix things. If it broke, I called the landlord.

My wife and I recently bought a house, so I wish I knew more.

But I'm also dedicated to learning more as I go along, so I hope to
reach a point in the future of being able to handle at least some
minor projects.

But yeah, I do have a workbench area and it's getting more and more
use so I'm happy about that. I just wish I had paid more attention as
a kid.

In article ,
Mark Trudgill wrote:


Those I used to butcher as beef and bone them out as if not you'd end up
with pork chops nearly 2" thick and weighing about 40oz each!!

Ummmm.

Pray tell: What is the downside here.

John, lover of _thick_ pork chops; seared, then slow grilled.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in.
snip

It is impossible to work on the modern car without a lot of very
specialized equipment.

Few doctors make house calls any more.

Might find it a little difficult to raise and butcher your own hogs in
most places where people live these days.

Times change, people change, the skills required to live in a modern
society keep changing.

Think the process is called "life".

Lew


That's the first response to this thread I fully agree with. The fact
that fewer and fewer people have workshops in their garages doesn't
really concern me.

The fact that I have one is really what matters. If someone down the
road can use the yellow pages, as Ed pointed out, then that's fine. And
if some neighbour kid wants to look over my shoulder to see what I'm
doing, that's ok by me. OTOH, if he (or she) would rather build a web
page that's also ok.

One argument is that it's where people's interests lie. The other side
of that, as pointed out by the single mother reference, is that how can
a kid know where their interests lie if they're not shown? The 26 year
old who bought the condo in Chicago found his interest - albeit a bit
late, but he's still fumbling his way around, and he'll likely make it
through. I was over 30 when I bought my first house, and scrambled to
find the tools (and skills) to bring the house up to par.

There will always be people like that. If they have a leaning that way,
they will eventually spackle over wallpaper, realize their mistake, and
do a better job next time.

We can't have a myopic view of what we do for either a hobby or
profession. The reason we do this kind of thing is that we either love
it or we have a special talent for it. Hopefully it's a big dollop of both.

Tanus

--
This is not really a sig.

George E. Cawthon wrote:
Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.

No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?

I would assume if you intended to eat it. Pork is Unclean, read your
Old Testament. If things broke down to the point where most people had
to butcher their own meat, Pork would be last choice. Proper
refrigeration and parasite control would certainly be long gone.

I'll stick with being able to butcher deer, beef, rabbit, and fowl.

Emmo wrote:
I would mention that those men who can do even the most basic of work,
whether on the home or car, are richly rewarded by all the women who love
being with someone who is 'handy'.

It depends a lot. Many women regard those kinds of
technical skills as "nerdy" and stay away from such
men. Understanding how things work, and being interested
in such things, has become a wierdness/freakyness, and
an alarming thing for many women. Stuff like that is
only something one does for a job, and not something to
be interested in during free time. Really. Having a
machine shop, or even lots of electronics/RF equipment,
is a social suicide with women. I'm talking about the
age group 20-35 years. The "acceptable" hobbies include
sports and culture, but definitely not technology/science.

Just today I noticed that my internet access didn't work.
Checked stuff, and found out that ADSL modem had stopped
working. I switched power off and back on, and only the
power light was lit, but no life otherwise. I opened it,
measured the SMPS voltages with oscilloscope, noticed
that 5V had huge ripple, and replaced the electrolytic
capasitor with a similar low-ESR cap I had. Started working
again. Yeah, there's advange - did get internet access
working still during sunday, and it cost me practically
nothing. A normal person would have waited until monday,
and bought a new ADSL modem, and propably paid someone
to get it configured/installed.

I refer to my 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma as a Toy Taco.

John

--


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in
message
news | Frank Boettcher wrote:
|
|
| I think it is poppycock, but I know it's not true
in Boston, Philly,
| Houston, Tulsa, Mineapolis, Birmingham, and
anywhere else I've ever
| lived or have relatives living. Please, you made
the claim, tell us
| where you are restricted from working on your car.
By who, the
| government?
|
| I'm in Southern California.
|
| City ordinance or owner(s) if it is a condo or owner
if a rental property.
|
| A lot of it depends on location.
|
| Tonka toy? Please tell us what vehicle you have
or know of that,
| without an extended pan, uses six quarts. I'm
curious.
|
| A 4 cyl, Toyota Tacoma pick up truck, AKA: Tonka Toy.
|
| Lew

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...


And he can sell it cheaper...The market is driven by the buyer.If more
people are willing to pay for a shop more builders will build houses with
a shop.If most people do not want to pay extra for a shop they are not
built.Builders try to build what sells.
Oddly, when many of our parents were making darn little they were buying
these homes with the garages that offered more. Now, as people do want
more space in their garages and are more capable of paying for them, there
are fewer garages built like this.

"Jeff McCann" wrote in message
...

"
I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a society
options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to assess and remediate
problems.

Jeff



Yeah, that is not working out so well with the residence of New Orleans.
The storm did little damage but the few broken levies which did the most
damage are still a threat. This is not the first city to be pounded by a
hurricane but probably one of the few where the residence simply sit back
blame the governmant.