Gunner wrote in
:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than
paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area
at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.

$12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
whale oil in silver flasks?


Even Mobile 1 is less than $5


Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist



A quart of Pennzoil 10w-30 down at the mom and pop service station here
in town is only $2/quart. I think it's $1.50/quart at kmart. I usually
buy it by the case.

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Steve W. wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set
of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Oil disposal fee? No place selling oil can charge you a fee legally. The
law states that ANY business selling new oil MUST accept used oil for
recycling, at NO CHARGE. Cost 0.00 Drop off the used oil from the
vehicle when you buy the new oil. You can even pour it back into the
empty bottles to save on container expense.
Benefits to the owner: YOU know the oil was changed, while under there
YOU can look over the engine and underside of the vehicle and look for
problems or leaks. While under the vehicle YOU can also grease any items
that can be greased, this has the side benefit of lowering wear on items
that should be lubed but usually are not.


Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

And again you can return the used coolant to any store that does coolant
changes for free. And again you can return it when you buy the new
coolant.


The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Not likely. Just a normal plug wrench for any plug on the market today.
You may need a torx bit or similar item if you need to remove a coil
pack or pull a cover but those are hardly special tools.


Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Nope because they have the same attitude you have, that it is easier to
trade them than to LEARN how to repair them.

More like they get sick of riding around in something that looks like it has
100,000 miles on it. Simple fact is that when something goes wrong with a
modern car it's generally an expensive piece of non-field-repairable
electronics or something that requires a lift and a well equipped shop.

Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition,
IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.

Life is finite. If you want to spend it learning how to fix cars that's
your privilege. I'd rather spend it learning to do things that I like to
do or things that get me the income to do things that I like to do.

Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

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--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Modat22 wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set
of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you
or anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or
various electrical components like starters or alternators, at home
or on the roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Oil disposal fee? No place selling oil can charge you a fee legally. The
law states that ANY business selling new oil MUST accept used oil for
recycling, at NO CHARGE. Cost 0.00 Drop off the used oil from the
vehicle when you buy the new oil. You can even pour it back into the
empty bottles to save on container expense.
Benefits to the owner: YOU know the oil was changed, while under there
YOU can look over the engine and underside of the vehicle and look for
problems or leaks. While under the vehicle YOU can also grease any items
that can be greased, this has the side benefit of lowering wear on items
that should be lubed but usually are not.


Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

And again you can return the used coolant to any store that does coolant
changes for free. And again you can return it when you buy the new
coolant.


The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Not likely. Just a normal plug wrench for any plug on the market today.
You may need a torx bit or similar item if you need to remove a coil
pack or pull a cover but those are hardly special tools.


Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Nope because they have the same attitude you have, that it is easier to
trade them than to LEARN how to repair them.


Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition,
IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.


Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

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120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy
via Encryption =----

Its never a lose lose proposition learning how to do anything, and
really its not all that hard working on today's cars if you buy and
read the manuals, have access to tools and don't mind getting dirty.

I'm still driving a 1996 grand am with 260,000 miles on it and a 1995
Chevy S10 with 225,000 miles on it. I rebuilt the automatic
transmission in the S10 5 years ago by following a books instruction
(I don't think I ever want to do that again, but I learned something).
I've done all the maintenance myself on all the cars I've owned and
can't imagine the amounts of money I've saved over the years.

How much did you _lose_ while the thing was down with the transmission
apart?

Do you honestly think that most people have the tools and work space
available to pull and overhaul a transmission?

I'll be buying a Prius January 2007 and my intent is to do all the
service work on that as well.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:13:55 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:

(snips)

I'm not talking about going through an economic shift, but
an economic/societal collapse. Different story...

Time to define our terms, I think. So, what does an economic/societal
collapse mean to you?

Personally, I expect American society to die with a whimper, not a bang,
over a span of many generations, in a way that is not readily apparent to
many who are living through it.

That's possible, and most likely. But...

I can give you another scenario: 5 or 6 120 kt nukes go off
in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. (Hezbollah, Al Qaida,
etc. have "won".) The investment, banking, and fed gov
systems go into paralysis.

All of which is backed up, off site, routinely, at least as to the more
important stuff, and all of which tends to have a rather extensive paper
trail (an auditing requirement), allowing fairly easy restoration in many
cases.

No banks open,

The banks outside the affected zones, and even in them, may well be open
much sooner than you think. One neat innovation is portable banking centers
built on mobile trucks or vans, specifically for use in disasters. Have you
seen them? Most major banks seem to have them lately.

no stock markets,
no commodity markets.

Most of which have either backup arrangments or ownership interest in
various other exchanges, so that they are capable of continuing their
essential activities.

See, e.g., Disaster planning saves Wall Street, and Corporate Governance,
Business Continuity Planning, and Disaster Recovery, below, and especially:
Policy Statement:
Business Continuity Planning for Trading Markets
Securities and Exchange Commission
[Release No. 34-48545; File No. S7-17-03]
http://www.sec.gov/rules/policy/34-48545.htm

No way to maintain the electrical
grids, because of no way to pay the workers and suppliers.

Don't underestimate the willingness of these people to work for deferred pay
in an emergency. Also, there are interagency agreements for utility
companies to provide essential labor and expertise to each other in
emergencies.

No way to restart the financial markets, because most of the
leadership and workers in NYC are dead, and the buildings
are in ruins, and the financial infrastructure won't be
rebuilt for years, if ever.

Then what's left of the fed gov
(most of the leadership already being dead) starts
distributing the billions (or is it trillions?) of dollars
in paper money they have stored up for just such an
emergency.

There is no reason that they need to give the money out in an inflationary
manner. They will simply exchange other obligations for cash, as necessary,
though.

Then the worker bees in places like Denver and
San Jose figure out that they aren't going to get paid, and
if they do get paid, it will be in money that is losing its
value faster than a 1923 German Mark.

Extremely unlikely that there will be that sort of currency devaluation.

Then you go to your
standard rioting, looting, killing, and general collapse of
society. Millions of dead bodies start piling up, and the
population of the U.S. is rapidly heading towards half or
less of what it was a couple of months before. State and
local governments start devolving from fed gov control and
issue their own currencies, which don't hold their value
either. Local warlords start... well, you get the idea.

There may be a series of civil disturbances, but nothing that can't be
handled. We've had that before.

I'm not suggesting that is likely, or even the most likely
result of that nuclear attack scenario. What I am saying is
-- assuming that it can't possibly happen is a mistake.

True.

It
has recently happened, to lesser extents, in societies which
have suffered lesser shocks. A good example is the former
USSR, which has gone through a monetary collapse, a severe
population decline (the life expectancy is now only about
60), a social collapse, with alcoholism becoming even a
bigger problem (contributing to that life expectancy
decrease) and with millions of pensioners becoming
impoverished as their state pensions' values evaporated
along with the value of the ruble.

Has the Russian society and economy actually collapsed, even with a
revolutionary change in government as well as all the other problems you
mentioned? In other words, in most places for most people, does the mail
get delivered? Do most people go to work each day and buy shelter, food and
other necessities with their earnings? Do their kids get go to school?
Does the electricity still come on when you flip a light switch? Does water
flow from the tap when you open the valve? Can decent people walk the
streets of their neighborhood without being killed and eaten by spiky haired
mutants?

And all they had to
shock them was an inefficient social/economic system, a
failed war in Afghanistan, and a nuclear power plant
disaster. Extrapolate the results from my 5 or 6 nukes
scenario, and you easily get to a near-total societal
collapse. For fictional depictions, see: The Postman, Road
Warrior, etc.

It wouldn't be like the transition from buggy whips to Model
Ts. It would be a transition from the complex, highly
ordered Information Society to a chaotic world of scarcity,
destruction, and death. Another poster summed it up
succinctly in another thread -- no cops.

To a greater or lesser degree in most places for most people. But will that
be a permanent condition, or deteriorate even further? Or will things soon
begin to get better and problems get sorted out as a recovery begins within,
say, months?

Jeff

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:05:26 GMT, "


a dozen Islamic Jihadists and less than 1000 lbs of explosives could
shut down the Northeast and the Northwest in less than a day..and keep
them shut down for at least a month or longer

Gunner


Exactly what I was inferring to except that I did not want that thought
getting out.
The possibility of it happening would be just one more excuse to jack up
electric rates and gas prices. ;~)

In article ,
Gunner wrote:




a dozen Islamic Jihadists and less than 1000 lbs of explosives could
shut down the Northeast and the Northwest in less than a day..and keep
them shut down for at least a month or longer

Gunner


Always knew you were a closet incurable optimist.

With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple hundred
feet of 1/4-inch link chain -- thrown across just the right busses. Some
of the bigger substation transformers are virtually irreplaceable. Get
some arcing started and the disconnects won't be able to break their
circuits before the transformers are scrap.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

I always liked Kipling's (as I remember) "Dissertation on Roast Pig".
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains these
words:

Mark Trudgill wrote:
The message
from "George E. Cawthon" contains
these
words:

Retief wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:21:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

COULD you butcher a hog, if you
really needed to?
Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else
do it.
No, you charge a fair bit to do the butchering operation, and hire a
"grunt" to do the hard parts (i.e. you supervise). The hog owner
get's his hog butchered correctly, your assistant gets food (a piece
of the action), and you get a big hunk of hog.

And everyone is happy and well fed...

Retief
How do you incorrectly butcher a hog?
Give a pig and a knife to someone who hasn't a clue and end up with
250lb of pork trimmings.


That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could butcher it, so he must
have a clue, probably way more than a clue.

My point is there is no incorrect way as long as one observes sanitary
procedure, may not be the way a professional does it and one may not end
up with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot would prefer pork
trimmings (whatever that is). I usually end up with bite size pieces
before I stuff them in my mouth.

Feel free to roast mouth sized pieces.


Thanks. You buying? I'd prefer to BBQ them. But soups are good, pork
and beans, all sorts of things you can do with scraps (I suppose he meant
little pieces). Of course bacon even a 10" strip is just one bite when
compressed.
Not to belabor the point, but I can't imagine anyone cutting up a whole
hog into scraps, way too much work. OTOH, if I had to do it, I would
debone the whole thing.

John Husvar (in
) said:

| With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple

Are your sure that you really want to continue this subthread?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.

BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.

$12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
whale oil in silver flasks?


Even Mobile 1 is less than $5


Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist


Total price of 12 bucks in quart bottles@ 5 quarts. Buy the 5 quart
bottle and it is about 9 bucks.

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"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...
Trevor Jones wrote:

Want to change your oil?


My Daughter is at College away from home and has a car of mine. I remind her
every few months to change the oil and have the fluids looked at. She even
has a credit card of mine to cover maintenance. I have told her many times
that the Jiffy Lube guys sometimes are not all that smart, but they often
get things right...
Daughters boyfriend decided that he could do it better, so he climbed under
the car, drained into a gallon milk container with a small funnel (spilled
all over the street), cleaned up with kitty litter, and added 4 quarts of
oil (no filter change).
Daughter called me a half hour later and told me the car starts and the
engine runs well, but the car won't move. I had her verbally repeat the
maintenance efforts boyfriend attempted.
You guessed it... he drained the automatic transmission.

Boyfriend thinks it is better for me to call him by his current nickname
"Dipstick" than the other one "dips&%t"

Jack

Modat22 wrote:
"doing all the work on a Prious"
Not a chance in hell dude

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


Lew Hodgett wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

It is in fact not only possible, but pretty easy to do. A simple set of
hand tools and a Haynes or Chilton manual for your vehicle, and you or
anyone else is quite capable of changing the oil, belts, or various
electrical components like starters or alternators, at home or on the
roadside.

snip

Totally impractical to try to work on an automobile today.

If you live in an urban area, many places do not permit working on a
car, especially outside, even on your own property, much less a rental
unit.

Want to change your oil?

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.


BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Oil disposal fee? No place selling oil can charge you a fee legally. The
law states that ANY business selling new oil MUST accept used oil for
recycling, at NO CHARGE. Cost 0.00 Drop off the used oil from the
vehicle when you buy the new oil. You can even pour it back into the
empty bottles to save on container expense.
Benefits to the owner: YOU know the oil was changed, while under there
YOU can look over the engine and underside of the vehicle and look for
problems or leaks. While under the vehicle YOU can also grease any items
that can be greased, this has the side benefit of lowering wear on items
that should be lubed but usually are not.



Sort of makes changing your own oil a non productive process.

Want to change the coolant every couple of years?

Again you face a toxic waste disposal problem which does not include
being able to pour used coolant into the sewer.

And again you can return the used coolant to any store that does coolant
changes for free. And again you can return it when you buy the new coolant.


The plugs on my vehicle are good for 100,000 miles and require special
tools to change. Think I'll pass on that one.

Not likely. Just a normal plug wrench for any plug on the market today.
You may need a torx bit or similar item if you need to remove a coil
pack or pull a cover but those are hardly special tools.


Most people don't keep a vehicle 100,000 miles like I do so they don't
even have to think about changing plugs and wires.

Nope because they have the same attitude you have, that it is easier to
trade them than to LEARN how to repair them.


Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.


Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Its never a lose lose proposition learning how to do anything, and
really its not all that hard working on today's cars if you buy and
read the manuals, have access to tools and don't mind getting dirty.

I'm still driving a 1996 grand am with 260,000 miles on it and a 1995
Chevy S10 with 225,000 miles on it. I rebuilt the automatic
transmission in the S10 5 years ago by following a books instruction
(I don't think I ever want to do that again, but I learned something).
I've done all the maintenance myself on all the cars I've owned and
can't imagine the amounts of money I've saved over the years.

I'll be buying a Prius January 2007 and my intent is to do all the
service work on that as well.

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:25:15 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:




a dozen Islamic Jihadists and less than 1000 lbs of explosives could
shut down the Northeast and the Northwest in less than a day..and keep
them shut down for at least a month or longer

Gunner


Always knew you were a closet incurable optimist.

Im a long term survivalist. Such sceanarios have been gamed for many
years in the survival community. I have some that would make you run
straight out to Walmart and fill every vehicle you own with supplies 2
minutes after finishing reading them.

With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple hundred
feet of 1/4-inch link chain -- thrown across just the right busses. Some
of the bigger substation transformers are virtually irreplaceable. Get
some arcing started and the disconnects won't be able to break their
circuits before the transformers are scrap.

True enough. The explosives were not necessarily for the
substations/towers etc..but the bridges etc leading to them. And
mechanical ambushes IEDs..to take out the skilled labor who show up to
make the repairs. There are only a finite number of such crews. Get a
few of them claymored..and the rest will be far more hesitant to restore
power to various areas.

Compressed air/black powder chain cannons on timers would be hard to
spot and deadly effective against substations, as would carbon fibre.
Carbon fibre dispensers btw..were used against Iraqi substations to good
effect.

1 pound of high explosives, a 50lb box of nails and a bit of enginuity
can remove a trained repair crew from the pension roles in a very short
time. Then who fixes the subs and restores the power, not to mention the
wait time while new transformers are custom fabricated..years.

Of course the best times to initiate such actions, particularly in the
Northwest and Northeast would be in December..at Christmas time, through
January. The death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands and
virtally all commerce in those areas would simply cease, after the
rioters dispersed or were shot, and the fires were out.

Another sceanario..a couple Jihadists in a plain jane automobile, stops
on any average overpass over a busy freeway just at the onset of rush
hour and unloads a few magazines full auto at the cars passing
underneith. As the giant crash occurse, perhaps a few blazing molotovs
tossed into the wreckage would brighten things up. Reenter the
vehicle..and drive a couple miles to the next overpass on a different
freeway..a connector to the first one would be more effective, and
repeat. Repeat a half dozen times..and that city is shut down for
weeks. Repeat a couple days later..and it gets worse. Mail some homebrew
video explaining that they are members of the Elbonian Underground and
will repeat the actions until such and such occurs.

$50 worth of ammo and the economic havoc is untold.

Look how well those two buffons in DC/maryland did in spreading fear and
panic knocking down a few citizens.

We live in a VERY fragile civilization whose infrastructure was never
designed for such disruptions. Nor are most of our peoples prepared to
turtle down and wait it out, let alone take any sort of defensive
stance.

Shrug.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 19:55:28 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

John Husvar (in
) said:

| With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple

Are your sure that you really want to continue this subthread?


Why not? You think the tangos are going to learn something from reading
these particular newsgroups? The same tangos who have been to Terrorist
Training Camp 202?

Its better to know what you could be up against, and be proactive..then
to blithely and blindly fumble around waiting for the sledge hammer to
fall.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:56:10 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

Mark Trudgill wrote:
... snip

Based on a sermon title from Dad's Seminary days ("Dead Hog and no Hot
Water...") I'd say not having enough hot water is one factor. Don't ask
me, I just pass 'em along.

You need hot water to scrape the hair off the skin.
You basically scold a small area of skin at a time and the hair and top
layer of skin peels off.

.... snip


What kind of words do you use when you scold the
hog? I've heard of people using words that would
burn your hide when scolding kids, but never with
hogs.

Just find a former sailor. :-)


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Jeff McCann" wrote:


"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:_tOBg.7403$7m5.2775@trnddc05...
"Jeff McCann" wrote:

Yep. No society is immune from collapse. My point is only that
technologically advanced societies are much less so. So, do you
think anyone alive at the height of the Roman Empire was still
alive to see those wolves roaming the streets? No. It took a very
long time indeed, for Roman society to decline and fall. It didn't
suddenly collapse within a portion of a single lifetime, like, say,
the Incan Empire.

The Inca and the Maya were very technologically advanced. Both
collapsed
in
a lifetime.

No, they were not technologically advanced. They had some skill at
celestial observation, and a very rich culture, but they barely even
used the wheel or any other form of technology more advanced than that
commonly found in the Western world of thousands of years ago.


Their agriculture was extremely well advanced and both controlled watr to
their benefit. Both lived in areas which could not support their
populations without intesive agriculture. They lived on the edge. A decade
or two of drought put them over the edge.

We live Over the edge in our use fossil fuels. Imagine our suppliers
cutting us off. 100% of the food eaten by the average American is fossil
fuel based. From putting it into the ground, growing it, harvesting it, to
getting it to the table. Now cut the availability of oil by 60%.

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:46:22 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

6 qts of oil, an air and oil filter costs as much or more than paying
for that same service down at the corner gas station, in this area at
least, never mind the used oil disposal process and cost.

BULL.
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts.

$12 per quart for Oil? Blink blink..are you buying extra pure sperm
whale oil in silver flasks?


Even Mobile 1 is less than $5


Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist


Total price of 12 bucks in quart bottles@ 5 quarts. Buy the 5 quart
bottle and it is about 9 bucks.

Ah! Sorry about the misreading.

Gunner


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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

jack wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...
Trevor Jones wrote:

Want to change your oil?


My Daughter is at College away from home and has a car of mine. I remind her
every few months to change the oil and have the fluids looked at. She even
has a credit card of mine to cover maintenance. I have told her many times
that the Jiffy Lube guys sometimes are not all that smart, but they often
get things right...
Daughters boyfriend decided that he could do it better, so he climbed under
the car, drained into a gallon milk container with a small funnel (spilled
all over the street), cleaned up with kitty litter, and added 4 quarts of
oil (no filter change).
Daughter called me a half hour later and told me the car starts and the
engine runs well, but the car won't move. I had her verbally repeat the
maintenance efforts boyfriend attempted.
You guessed it... he drained the automatic transmission.

Boyfriend thinks it is better for me to call him by his current nickname
"Dipstick" than the other one "dips&%t"

Jack





Could call that a failure of parenting. But quite
often, it's failure of the kid's brain. No
experience with daughters, but one son was enough.

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:34:47 -0400, LiRM
wrote:

On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

It has always concerned me when the young amoung us are not taugh basic
skills such as how to change a tire, how to use a saw, how to...well
you get the idea...there are basic skills that one needs to deal with
the world we live in. Well this article shows what that lack of
training, due to whatever reason, means as they get older.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT

I grew up around an uncle who literally rebuilt his entire house.

My father literally built his house -- cement work,
plumbing, framing, siding, wiring, roofing, everything. I
am somewhat embarrassed that I will probably hire my roof
replaced. It comes down to 2 factors: he HAD to (no money);
and I don't want to. I'm sure I could redo the roof if I
really needed to. I used to do stuff like that all the
time. Now I'm lazy (and old) -- and I want it done right,
not cheaply.

I've built 3 houses including one 3 storey one of 5400 sq ft. That
taught me not to build houses. Unfortunately I found a lovely piece of
land on waterfront. I could afford the land and some building
materials. I couldn't afford to pay for labour unless I sold one of my
other properties, which I wasn't going to do. So, I built another
house. At least I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. Finished
the house then started on the shop (I built a small temporary shop
first, of course).

I did contract out the slab for the big workshop, tho. There's 20 cubic
metres of concrete in the slab on top of the 16 cubic metres in the
footings. The rest I'm doing myself.

People like us *can* do it if we have to or want to. Others - can't.
I've gotten a great deal of amusement watching the architect g/f of a
friend of mine realise just how limited her knowledge base was when it
came to actually building a place. She & he have managed to build a 24'
x 20' shed in the same time I built a house. I had to lend them some
tools, teach them how to use others and explain why, sometimes, 'near
enough' is ok if 'perfect' is going to take 10X as long.

Also that hand sanding boards with 400 wet & dry isn't a real
productive activity :-) Better to go 80 grit, 120, 180 etc. And use a
power sander, or better still, paint it & forget it. It was only a
facia board after all....

My 3 kids have no real interest in the skills I have, and I've never
barred them from the workshop. Rather play computer games. Of my
siblings, I was the only one to have an interest in this sort of stuff.
Lots of tools about. Shrug. I forsee an interesting retirement fixing
stuff for my daughters in the years to come, assuming that their
eventual partners turn oout as useless as the majority these days.

If they can find me when they need me, that is.

PDW

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT, Gunner wrote:

On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, wrote:

.... snip


Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.


Only time I have a problem with that is when the nut is on the bottom of
something and I'm reaching down and around a bunch of obstacles from the
top. Then I have to remember that CCW for the nut is CW when viewed from
the top. And that's after 15+ years working on a farm (first 8 years
weren't that productive :-) ) as well as various machinery work after
getting out of college.


Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


Really like your sig.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:55:54 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


Lew Hodgett wrote:
.... snip


Matter of fact, most of today's vehicles have a pretty good track record
for the first 75,000 miles.

Trying to do your own auto repairs today is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

Not if you have the foresight to learn all you can.


Now you want to talk about diesel engine maintenance on a sail boat,
that's another matterG.

Lew

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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Its never a lose lose proposition learning how to do anything, and
really its not all that hard working on today's cars if you buy and
read the manuals, have access to tools and don't mind getting dirty.

I'm still driving a 1996 grand am with 260,000 miles on it and a 1995
Chevy S10 with 225,000 miles on it. I rebuilt the automatic
transmission in the S10 5 years ago by following a books instruction
(I don't think I ever want to do that again, but I learned something).
I've done all the maintenance myself on all the cars I've owned and
can't imagine the amounts of money I've saved over the years.

I'll be buying a Prius January 2007 and my intent is to do all the
service work on that as well.

Rather interesting point of view from a book by Roger Welsch, "Old
Tractors and the Men Who Love Them", subtitled, "How to Keep Your Tractors
Happy and Your Family Running" Highly recommended light, fun reading.
However, he made an interesting statement. Now, he admittedly has no
background or training in various manual arts, so his work on tractor
restoration is his first forray into mechanical work. None the less, the
following has some merit:

"I wouldn't dream of building my own house, too much rides on it. The
welfare of my family and possessions depnds on strong walls and a tight
roof. Actually it's a matter of life and death. I don't know enough about
house construction to reisk my life and property on it ... " Now, his
mistake here is that he fails to realize that he is probably trainable, but
there is a time element required.

"... What would happen if I broke off a pan bolt or ignored a faulty
brake on my Taruus? We'd die [a bit extreme] or lose an awful lot of maney
we don't have to lose. In other words, wehn I work with a tractor [one
could substitute any hobby here -- such as woodworking], there are no
losses, only victories". Elsewhere he makes the comment that he relies on
his car for his employment and transportation, if he screws up, then he
messes with his livelihood. There may be that trepidation on the part of
some to undertake projects that, if messed up, will result in more loss
than savings.

In my own case, it's more a matter of available time. There are things
that I *want* to do, but because of the other things in life (like work,
family, and church activities), I don't have enough time to do the things I
like and to do things such as mechanical repair on my vehicles. Thus, it
makes more sense to pay someone to do those tasks that I'm not really
interested in doing while allowing me time to do those that I either must,
should, and want to do as well as those for which I really like doing for
my own pleasure. If the time comes when I have more time than available
money, I will once again start doing those other things to save money.







+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:25:15 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:




a dozen Islamic Jihadists and less than 1000 lbs of explosives could
shut down the Northeast and the Northwest in less than a day..and keep
them shut down for at least a month or longer

Gunner


Always knew you were a closet incurable optimist.

Im a long term survivalist. Such sceanarios have been gamed for many
years in the survival community. I have some that would make you run
straight out to Walmart and fill every vehicle you own with supplies 2
minutes after finishing reading them.

Probably almost all of the possible scenarios have been gamed by
somebody. Too damn bad the people who might have made the difference on
9/11 maybe didn't take the game scenarios seriously enough. But, then,
how can anyone know _which_ scenario may play out at any given time?


With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple hundred
feet of 1/4-inch link chain -- thrown across just the right busses. Some
of the bigger substation transformers are virtually irreplaceable. Get
some arcing started and the disconnects won't be able to break their
circuits before the transformers are scrap.

True enough. The explosives were not necessarily for the
substations/towers etc..but the bridges etc leading to them. And
mechanical ambushes IEDs..to take out the skilled labor who show up to
make the repairs. There are only a finite number of such crews. Get a
few of them claymored..and the rest will be far more hesitant to restore
power to various areas.

Bank along a road, posthole digger, 2' capped one end, of 6" cast iron
or steel tubing, 2# homemade fffg black powder sealed in a big Baggie
along with 2 electric matches (redundancy), cheap radio control out of a
RC kids' toy, batteries, pound or two of 6d finish nails, newspaper
wadding. Result? One instant, remote detonated, claymore equivalent --
adequate for from ordinary grunts marching along the road to police
cruisers.

Primitive to an extreme, but possible, even practical with off-the-shelf
materials.

And Homeland Security doesn't offer to hire us why?


Compressed air/black powder chain cannons on timers would be hard to
spot and deadly effective against substations, as would carbon fibre.
Carbon fibre dispensers btw..were used against Iraqi substations to good
effect.

Gunner, get the Hell _outta_ my head!

You have an evil, devious mind. I like that characteristic in a man --
or woman for that matter.


1 pound of high explosives, a 50lb box of nails and a bit of enginuity
can remove a trained repair crew from the pension roles in a very short
time. Then who fixes the subs and restores the power, not to mention the
wait time while new transformers are custom fabricated..years.

Yep.


Of course the best times to initiate such actions, particularly in the
Northwest and Northeast would be in December..at Christmas time, through
January. The death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands and
virtally all commerce in those areas would simply cease, after the
rioters dispersed or were shot, and the fires were out.

Given sleeper cells, which it's fairly likely are already set up in many
countries, such tricks could be pulled off in spurts of a few weeks
between actions. Doing it in random locations would add to the effects.


Another sceanario..a couple Jihadists in a plain jane automobile, stops
on any average overpass over a busy freeway just at the onset of rush
hour and unloads a few magazines full auto at the cars passing
underneith. As the giant crash occurse, perhaps a few blazing molotovs
tossed into the wreckage would brighten things up. Reenter the
vehicle..and drive a couple miles to the next overpass on a different
freeway..a connector to the first one would be more effective, and
repeat. Repeat a half dozen times..and that city is shut down for
weeks. Repeat a couple days later..and it gets worse. Mail some homebrew
video explaining that they are members of the Elbonian Underground and
will repeat the actions until such and such occurs.

$50 worth of ammo and the economic havoc is untold.

Look how well those two buffons in DC/maryland did in spreading fear and
panic knocking down a few citizens.

We live in a VERY fragile civilization whose infrastructure was never
designed for such disruptions. Nor are most of our peoples prepared to
turtle down and wait it out, let alone take any sort of defensive
stance.

Well, I don't know that it's _that_ fragile, but there'd surely be a lot
of disruption. the Two above buffoons _did_ have effect far beyond their
real lethality. If people don't feel it safe to go anywhere, things
devolve down to two choices; hunker down, surrender, and maybe die or
get used to it and figure it's like lightning and maybe die. Your odds
are good, but there's no guarantee you won't lose.


Shrug.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

In article ,
"Morris Dovey" wrote:

John Husvar (in
) said:

| With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple

Are your sure that you really want to continue this subthread?


Hi, Morris.

I really don't see why it'd be a problem.

The terrorists are fanatical, not stupid.

They've probably thought of many or most of these scenarios on their
own. The real problem is determining _which_ scenario they'll try to
pull off _when_. That they'll try one or another or something no one has
thought of is almost certain.

I suspect more than ignoring the field guys' notes about people taking
flying lessons but not being interested in landings, the FBI, etc. said
something like: "Are you kidding? No ****ing way! Jeez, get a grip, you
guys!"

99.9% of the time they'd be right: We just got that .01% on 9/11.

Seems to me, when thinking about people whose fondest wish is to die for
Allah, thinking of ways they might do it is more productive than
otherwise.

Whether they read newsgroups or not, they're likely planning all sorts
of nasty little surprises -- and probably a few really big ones.

Fact of life anymo They're here. They're weird. We have to deal with
it.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:29:31 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:13:55 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:

(snips)

I'm not talking about going through an economic shift, but
an economic/societal collapse. Different story...

Time to define our terms, I think. So, what does an economic/societal
collapse mean to you?

Personally, I expect American society to die with a whimper, not a bang,
over a span of many generations, in a way that is not readily apparent to
many who are living through it.

That's possible, and most likely. But...

I can give you another scenario: 5 or 6 120 kt nukes go off
in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. (Hezbollah, Al Qaida,
etc. have "won".) The investment, banking, and fed gov
systems go into paralysis.

All of which is backed up, off site, routinely, at least as to the more
important stuff, and all of which tends to have a rather extensive paper
trail (an auditing requirement), allowing fairly easy restoration in many
cases.

You are ignoring the psychological shock inflicted on the
survivors which might cause them to re-examine, and then
discard, the underlying assumptions propping up the existing
socio-economic system. For example, exactly from whom would
they take direction if almost all the leadership of the
Federal Government, Wall Street, et al., are killed within a
half hour? Given that the currency is based solely on the
faith and credit of the United States, and not any real
assets or values at all, and that the Federal Government is
suddenly decapitated (actually, worse than merely
decapitated), why do you suppose things would just go on --
business as usual? Run the backups, get out the paper
records, find the Secretary of Agriculture and swear him in
-- he happened to be in Iowa at time -- and everything will
get back on track in a day or two? The geezers will still
get their SS checks, the welfare checks will still go out as
usual (I know -- the EBT cards will be refilled), people
will still dutifully file their 1040s, the money will still
be as valuable as it was, or even half as valuable as it
was? Assuming that seems to me to be overly optimistic.
The economic shocks from 9/11 cost the U.S. economy hundreds
of billions of dollars, and that was trivial compared to a
multi-city nuclear attack.

I'm sure you're right in that a good faith effort would be
made to maintain something close to the status quo ante, but
I doubt it could be done.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

John Husvar (in
) said:

| Whether they read newsgroups or not, they're likely planning all
| sorts of nasty little surprises -- and probably a few really big
| ones.
|
| Fact of life anymo They're here. They're weird. We have to deal
| with it.

I'm aware of these things. I'm also aware of the extent to which a
free society is vulnerable, and how very little it would take to
(quietly) take the lives of tens of millions of innocent people.

My carefully considered choice is to provide neither confirmation of
effectiveness of any ideas they may already have - nor to suggest new
ideas for their consideration.

I would not even consider asking you to not address these topics - my
suggestion was that you consider the possible consequences of doing so
in this (global) public forum.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Gunner wrote:
And home owner associations that forbid you from even leaving your
garage door open for more than 30 minutes.


This is what I don't understand. When I was coming up, your house
looked *abandoned* of you didn't have the garage door open. Everyone
in my neighborhood had their garage open all day long...it signified
someone was home...someone actually lived there. Kids were always
playing hoops above the garage door, or girls were jumping rope with
friends in the driveway. Or if you looked up in the trees, there were
kids plotting all sorts of mischief.

Nowdays, I drive through a neighborhood, and all the doors are closed.
THAT is what looks ugliest to me.

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:19:17 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:25:15 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:




a dozen Islamic Jihadists and less than 1000 lbs of explosives could
shut down the Northeast and the Northwest in less than a day..and keep
them shut down for at least a month or longer

Gunner


Always knew you were a closet incurable optimist.

Im a long term survivalist. Such sceanarios have been gamed for many
years in the survival community. I have some that would make you run
straight out to Walmart and fill every vehicle you own with supplies 2
minutes after finishing reading them.

Probably almost all of the possible scenarios have been gamed by
somebody. Too damn bad the people who might have made the difference on
9/11 maybe didn't take the game scenarios seriously enough. But, then,
how can anyone know _which_ scenario may play out at any given time?


With a little study and planning, they could do it with a couple hundred
feet of 1/4-inch link chain -- thrown across just the right busses. Some
of the bigger substation transformers are virtually irreplaceable. Get
some arcing started and the disconnects won't be able to break their
circuits before the transformers are scrap.

True enough. The explosives were not necessarily for the
substations/towers etc..but the bridges etc leading to them. And
mechanical ambushes IEDs..to take out the skilled labor who show up to
make the repairs. There are only a finite number of such crews. Get a
few of them claymored..and the rest will be far more hesitant to restore
power to various areas.

Bank along a road, posthole digger, 2' capped one end, of 6" cast iron
or steel tubing, 2# homemade fffg black powder sealed in a big Baggie
along with 2 electric matches (redundancy), cheap radio control out of a
RC kids' toy, batteries, pound or two of 6d finish nails, newspaper
wadding. Result? One instant, remote detonated, claymore equivalent --
adequate for from ordinary grunts marching along the road to police
cruisers.

Be sure to bury a 55 gallon drum full of gasoline, with the drum top
pointed to where you expect the wreckage to stop. When EMS/LEOs show up
and you get maximum people density, command detonate the fougass and
you can have a real flambe catching quite a number of individuals. A
real "twofer".

The arab terrorists use secondary bombs to catch medical personel and
have been doing this for years.

Primitive to an extreme, but possible, even practical with off-the-shelf
materials.

And Homeland Security doesn't offer to hire us why?

Because those folks have others far far nastier than us.


Compressed air/black powder chain cannons on timers would be hard to
spot and deadly effective against substations, as would carbon fibre.
Carbon fibre dispensers btw..were used against Iraqi substations to good
effect.

Gunner, get the Hell _outta_ my head!

You have an evil, devious mind. I like that characteristic in a man --
or woman for that matter.

Shrug..its a knack.


1 pound of high explosives, a 50lb box of nails and a bit of enginuity
can remove a trained repair crew from the pension roles in a very short
time. Then who fixes the subs and restores the power, not to mention the
wait time while new transformers are custom fabricated..years.

Yep.


Of course the best times to initiate such actions, particularly in the
Northwest and Northeast would be in December..at Christmas time, through
January. The death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands and
virtally all commerce in those areas would simply cease, after the
rioters dispersed or were shot, and the fires were out.

Given sleeper cells, which it's fairly likely are already set up in many
countries, such tricks could be pulled off in spurts of a few weeks
between actions. Doing it in random locations would add to the effects.


Another sceanario..a couple Jihadists in a plain jane automobile, stops
on any average overpass over a busy freeway just at the onset of rush
hour and unloads a few magazines full auto at the cars passing
underneith. As the giant crash occurse, perhaps a few blazing molotovs
tossed into the wreckage would brighten things up. Reenter the
vehicle..and drive a couple miles to the next overpass on a different
freeway..a connector to the first one would be more effective, and
repeat. Repeat a half dozen times..and that city is shut down for
weeks. Repeat a couple days later..and it gets worse. Mail some homebrew
video explaining that they are members of the Elbonian Underground and
will repeat the actions until such and such occurs.

$50 worth of ammo and the economic havoc is untold.

Look how well those two buffons in DC/maryland did in spreading fear and
panic knocking down a few citizens.

We live in a VERY fragile civilization whose infrastructure was never
designed for such disruptions. Nor are most of our peoples prepared to
turtle down and wait it out, let alone take any sort of defensive
stance.

Well, I don't know that it's _that_ fragile, but there'd surely be a lot
of disruption. the Two above buffoons _did_ have effect far beyond their
real lethality. If people don't feel it safe to go anywhere, things
devolve down to two choices; hunker down, surrender, and maybe die or
get used to it and figure it's like lightning and maybe die. Your odds
are good, but there's no guarantee you won't lose.


Shrug.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:29:31 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:13:55 -0500, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:

(snips)

I'm not talking about going through an economic shift, but
an economic/societal collapse. Different story...

Time to define our terms, I think. So, what does an economic/societal
collapse mean to you?

Personally, I expect American society to die with a whimper, not a
bang,
over a span of many generations, in a way that is not readily apparent
to
many who are living through it.

That's possible, and most likely. But...

I can give you another scenario: 5 or 6 120 kt nukes go off
in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Seattle, etc. (Hezbollah, Al Qaida,
etc. have "won".) The investment, banking, and fed gov
systems go into paralysis.

All of which is backed up, off site, routinely, at least as to the more
important stuff, and all of which tends to have a rather extensive paper
trail (an auditing requirement), allowing fairly easy restoration in many
cases.

You are ignoring the psychological shock inflicted on the
survivors which might cause them to re-examine, and then
discard, the underlying assumptions propping up the existing
socio-economic system. For example, exactly from whom would
they take direction if almost all the leadership of the
Federal Government, Wall Street, et al., are killed within a
half hour? Given that the currency is based solely on the
faith and credit of the United States, and not any real
assets or values at all, and that the Federal Government is
suddenly decapitated (actually, worse than merely
decapitated), why do you suppose things would just go on --
business as usual? Run the backups, get out the paper
records, find the Secretary of Agriculture and swear him in
-- he happened to be in Iowa at time -- and everything will
get back on track in a day or two? The geezers will still
get their SS checks, the welfare checks will still go out as
usual (I know -- the EBT cards will be refilled), people
will still dutifully file their 1040s, the money will still
be as valuable as it was, or even half as valuable as it
was? Assuming that seems to me to be overly optimistic.
The economic shocks from 9/11 cost the U.S. economy hundreds
of billions of dollars, and that was trivial compared to a
multi-city nuclear attack.

I'm sure you're right in that a good faith effort would be
made to maintain something close to the status quo ante, but
I doubt it could be done.

It really is hard to say, but I do know quite alot from direct personal
observation about how people react when their lives are totally disrupted,
homes and jobs completely gone, communities devastated, loved ones missing,
hurt or killed, little or no news from outside, etc. I'm willing to rely
more than you appear to be on the basic resiliency of the American character
in the face of adversity, as well as in the basic robustness of our social,
economic and political systems.

As for the large scale economic losses, we've been down that road before,
and not just in the Great Depression of the 1930s. Prosperity isn't just
centered on Wall Street, it's built on Main Street, as well. There's a lot
of fat and fluff in the American economy and lifestyle, and most people can
manage to do with far less than they think, and they can rebuild and
overcome faster than they think, too. Crises have a way of evolving into
new opportunities. It's would suck big-time, to be sure, but it wouldn't
suck forever.

And no, I don't think "everything will get back on track in a day or two,"
but I do think most things will get back on track eventually, in many cases
faster than you think. Some things will, indeed, change or be lost forever.
But a new "normal" will soon be established, perhaps different than status
quo ante, but not all that different.

Jeff

Mark & Juanita wrote:
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT, Gunner wrote:

On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, wrote:

... snip


Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.


Only time I have a problem with that is when the nut is on the bottom of
something and I'm reaching down and around a bunch of obstacles from the
top. Then I have to remember that CCW for the nut is CW when viewed from
the top. And that's after 15+ years working on a farm (first 8 years
weren't that productive :-) ) as well as various machinery work after
getting out of college.

hold your right hand in a fist with thumb extended.

twisting the nut in the same direction that your fingers are pointing
will move the nut in the direction that your thumb is pointed.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

Ron Moore wrote:
I always thought it was somewhat disgusting to see an open garage with
no workbench or tools of any kind in it. Just space for CARS! How
productive or creative can this person be? What are they going to do when
they retire? What skills are they teaching their kids?
I know -- what kind of person can actually park a car in their garage
without moving at least one piece of heavy equipment? It's just not
right, I tells ya'! It's important for me to have a shop, and I'm
looking forward to teaching my kids how to make stuff.

When I drive through a neighborhood, it is a rare garage that has
anything like a workshop within it anymore....a reflection of the lack
of interest or knowledge of the homeowner to work with their hands?
I agree. I think it's sad that fewer people make stuff with thier own
hands. Not that it's required to get by anymore... you can buy a lot of
stuff so cheaply that there isn't a big reason to make your own stuff
any more. And a lot of stuff has gotten so complex that it's far
cheaper to replace it, or take it to a specialist if it breaks.

Do your children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, the generation who
is succeeding us, have the basic skills that are needed in the world
today?

TMT
Well, I'd have to say that yes, they do. The world is changing. People
who can fix things are still needed, but not to the degree they were
before. There just isn't the same demand for, say, a room full of
machinists when they can be replaced by a CNC machine or two. There is
a demand for people who can do a good job designing things, though.

Most people can figure out how to make the stuff they deal with work
well enough to get by... Maybe it's not perfect, but it's good enough.

Personally, I wish they had more shop classes in school. I think the
most useful class I took in high school was metal shop. It was fun, and
I Learned a whole lot about how to make things work. But my personal
desires don't have much to do with the current economic reality of
off-shoring manufacturing and competition with China.

It's disapointing that in the four or so years that I've had a shop in
my garage, not one kid has asked me anything about it.

Jeff Polaski

charlie wrote:
Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT, Gunner wrote:


On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, wrote:


... snip


Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.


Only time I have a problem with that is when the nut is on the bottom of
something and I'm reaching down and around a bunch of obstacles from the
top. Then I have to remember that CCW for the nut is CW when viewed from
the top. And that's after 15+ years working on a farm (first 8 years
weren't that productive :-) ) as well as various machinery work after
getting out of college.


hold your right hand in a fist with thumb extended.

twisting the nut in the same direction that your fingers are pointing
will move the nut in the direction that your thumb is pointed.


Don't do this if you're replacing the clutch on a
Hamilton Beach commercial blender. VBG

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az


--
Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS"
| Tunxis Design Inc.
| Cupertino, Ca. 95014

Steve W. wrote:
New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.
Just so you know, you can get five quarts of synthetic oil for about
$12.00 at WallMart. If you go for the name brand stuff it's about
$20.00 for five quarts.

Jeff P.

It's disapointing that in the four or so years that I've had a shop in
my garage, not one kid has asked me anything about it.

Jeff Polaski



I hadn't thought of that. My neighbors always pop in to see what is going on
(65+), but never a kid from the neighborhood. I can remember as a child,
going to the garage that was making the most noise. Grinding sparks could
draw me blocks! I always wanted to weld, but didn't try it until I was over
40. Damn I was missing some fun.

I also spent MANY summer days watching the construction of the homes in my
area. I am sure I bugged the crap out of the guys, but there is not a
construction project I won't take on because of inability. I have done
everything for a large addition. Including digging for the footings by hand!

Ok, to prevent some of the backlash--- I was in no hurry, and I could only
get something that was 3½ feet wide in the backyard, so I dug it by hand.
And for the rest of you--- my community allows homeowners that can show
competency the option of pulling a "homeowner" permit for all phases. So I
had to do that for footing/stem wall, rough framing, rough plumbing, rough
electrical, final plumbing, and final electrical. Damn expensive for all
those permits, but I did it legal.

"NewsJunky" wrote in message
...

Snipped

Ok, to prevent some of the backlash--- I was in no hurry, and I could only
get something that was 3½ feet wide in the backyard, so I dug it by hand.
And for the rest of you--- my community allows homeowners that can show
competency the option of pulling a "homeowner" permit for all phases. So I
had to do that for footing/stem wall, rough framing, rough plumbing, rough
electrical, final plumbing, and final electrical. Damn expensive for all
those permits, but I did it legal.

Kudos for going the legal route....As a remodeling contractor, I have to
play by the rules as well. However, I am curious as to how you felt when all
was done. Did you get your moneys worth for all those permits??? Were the
inspectors helpful or a PITA ???

I have seen em all ranging from the electrical inspector who spent more time
finding a place for the Passed Sticker than he did looking at the wiring (he
was there about 15 sec.)

Had another one walk thru the door and ask "who's gonna take the heat....??"
I think he was kinda ****ed afterwards when he found nothing wrong.....

I'll bet these two guys have no tools in their garages...

I have also worked with plenty of inspectors who know their stuff AND are
nice and helpful with any questions. These are the guys who don't have the
Power Trip Ego thing goin....Cause they don't need to prove themselves when
the knowledge is apparent.

Anyone else care to comment ???

Jeff

hold your right hand in a fist with thumb extended.

twisting the nut in the same direction that your fingers are pointing
will move the nut in the direction that your thumb is pointed.


Don't do this if you're replacing the clutch on a
Hamilton Beach commercial blender. VBG
Or driver-side lug nuts on an old Dodge...

Jeff P.

Jeff McCann wrote:

It really is hard to say, but I do know quite alot from direct personal
observation about how people react when their lives are totally disrupted,
homes and jobs completely gone, communities devastated, loved ones missing,
hurt or killed, little or no news from outside, etc. I'm willing to rely
more than you appear to be on the basic resiliency of the American character
in the face of adversity, as well as in the basic robustness of our social,
economic and political systems.

That's true for any people, look at the way we (I'm English) reacted to
Germany's bombings of London and other major cities, or how we reacted
when the IRA destroyed the centre of my city (Manchester), or when our
home grown Islamists butchered people in the subways of London.

Everyone adapts, and very quickly.

Steve

"Never_Enough_Tools" wrote in message
...

"NewsJunky" wrote in message
...

Kudos for going the legal route....As a remodeling contractor, I have to
play by the rules as well. However, I am curious as to how you felt when
all was done. Did you get your moneys worth for all those permits???
Were the inspectors helpful or a PITA ???

I have seen em all ranging from the electrical inspector who spent more
time finding a place for the Passed Sticker than he did looking at the
wiring (he was there about 15 sec.)

Had another one walk thru the door and ask "who's gonna take the
heat....??" I think he was kinda ****ed afterwards when he found nothing
wrong.....

I'll bet these two guys have no tools in their garages...

I have also worked with plenty of inspectors who know their stuff AND are
nice and helpful with any questions. These are the guys who don't have the
Power Trip Ego thing goin....Cause they don't need to prove themselves
when the knowledge is apparent.

Anyone else care to comment ???

Jeff

The foundation and rough framing was very uneventful. I may not have even
been around? Electrical was a FAST run by. Slap the pass sticker on, and out
of the house. Never looked at the connections back to the breaker box, never
checked the wire runs in the attic (that was ok).

The plumbing was completely different. I go to the offices to show my plans
and prove I know plumbing. (Golden Rule-- **** don't run uphill), and for
him to approve my plans. I wait as he reams out a contractor. I actually
thought the guy might cry. Holy crap he worked him over. So......next up is
little ol' me. Show him my plans, talk about what and how I plan to do
this.....blah, blah. In no time at all he is redrawing my plans and showing
me a cheaper and easier way to do the DWV. What I had was text book, but
what he showed me was legal and much easier. Guess what.....I did it his
way. The plumbing inspector ended up becoming a customer of mine (Banker in
real life) long after the job was over.

The long and short of it is.....show me someone who is logical, creative and
has good common sense, and I will hire that SOB right out from underneath
you!!

Gunner wrote:
LITTLE BOXES
....
Pete Seeger

It was actually written by Malvina Reynolds, not Pete Seeger

See http://www.ocap.ca/songs/littlbox.html

John Cowart

Steve W. wrote:

New oil - 12.00 for mid line oil in quarts. Filter - 3-4 bucks.

Precisely.

Around $15.00 for oil and a filter and I have too provide the labor to
change as well as providing the labor to disposel of the used oil.

From time to time, local gas station offers an oil change with filter
for $14.95, otherwise the going rate is about $20.00

I have better things to do with my time than trying to save $0-$5 max
by playing grease monkey.

Lew

Blew your credibility with that statement. Work at a desk, don't you?

wrote in message
ups.com...
There just isn't the same demand for, say, a room full of
machinists when they can be replaced by a CNC machine or two. There is

On 8 Aug 2006 09:39:16 -0700, "charlie" wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:46:37 GMT, Gunner wrote:

On 6 Aug 2006 19:17:29 -0700, wrote:

... snip


Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:

Righty tighty, lefty loosey.


Only time I have a problem with that is when the nut is on the bottom of
something and I'm reaching down and around a bunch of obstacles from the
top. Then I have to remember that CCW for the nut is CW when viewed from
the top. And that's after 15+ years working on a farm (first 8 years
weren't that productive :-) ) as well as various machinery work after
getting out of college.

hold your right hand in a fist with thumb extended.

twisting the nut in the same direction that your fingers are pointing
will move the nut in the direction that your thumb is pointed.


Dang! You mean the right hand rule is good for more than the direction
of a vector cross-product? Thanks. (Still learning)



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If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

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