Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss
fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers
having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several
years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained
that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular
due to doubts about reliability. He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but
he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water
reservoir was very reliable.
Does he know what he's talking about (on both counts)?

Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the Yeoman gas
stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage test
should have been done, as well as a burner pressure test with all other
appliances turned on, and the result recorded in the booklet along with the
signature of the installation engineer. Well, nothing has been recorded, and
they didn't ask me about other appliances, so I assume the tests weren't
done. Is this just fussing by the manufacturer, or should I follow it up?
In the way of most tradesman I've dealt with in this area I would expect
them to just bung it in, light it up and say the job's a good 'un, though as
installers for the biggest gas fire showroom in the area they presumably
know what they're doing.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:27:49 -0000, "Rob" wrote:

Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss
fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers
having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several
years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained
that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular
due to doubts about reliability. He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but
he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water
reservoir was very reliable.
Does he know what he's talking about (on both counts)?

If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is saying
(a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect.

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032806.hcsp

However, see the exceptions assessment:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp

Exceptions are allowed for various situations.

Perhaps this is what the guy is talking about. There is still an old
wive's tale among some installers that condensing boilers are
unreliable. This used to be the case with early UK designs, but
those from Germany and Holland were good. Most of the new products
originate from designs or including components from Germany and
reliability is much better..

As you can see there is a points system in the exceptions assessment,
and it wouldn't be too hard for people to reach the 1000 point
threshold in some instances.






Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the Yeoman gas
stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage test
should have been done, as well as a burner pressure test with all other
appliances turned on, and the result recorded in the booklet along with the
signature of the installation engineer. Well, nothing has been recorded, and
they didn't ask me about other appliances, so I assume the tests weren't
done. Is this just fussing by the manufacturer, or should I follow it up?
In the way of most tradesman I've dealt with in this area I would expect
them to just bung it in, light it up and say the job's a good 'un, though as
installers for the biggest gas fire showroom in the area they presumably
know what they're doing.

Not if they didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and
instructions. Did they do a gas soundness test? This involves
connecting a pressure gauge and testing any drop in pressure with the
gas turned off at the meter. The details are slightly more involved
as far as the procedure is concerned (see Ed's gas fitting FAQ) but
that is the principle.

If they haven't done these things then they should be pulled back to
do them.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.

Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing about
modern technology.

The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago,
they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless condensing
models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant that their
chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model.

Christian.

he said the rule about all new boilers
having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for
several
years.

If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is
saying
(a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect.

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032806.hcsp

However, see the exceptions assessment:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp


No exception for me then - a condensing boiler would fit very easily
and the neighbours aren't near enough to bother about plumes.



Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the
Yeoman gas
stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage
test
should have been done...should I follow it up?
...they presumably know what they're doing.


Not if they didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and
instructions. Did they do a gas soundness test? This involves
connecting a pressure gauge and testing any drop in pressure with
the
gas turned off at the meter. The details are slightly more involved
as far as the procedure is concerned (see Ed's gas fitting FAQ) but
that is the principle.

If they haven't done these things then they should be pulled back to
do them.

Well, I know they didn't turn the gas off at any time when fitting the
stove, because I asked them. I think they might have done the test you
describe after disconnecting the old gas fire and capping the pipe
until the new stove arrived, but I've got nothing in writing. I think
I'll speak to the shop that sent them.
To be continued...

--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:46:36 -0000, "Rob" wrote:


he said the rule about all new boilers
having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for
several
years.

If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is
saying
(a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect.

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032806.hcsp

However, see the exceptions assessment:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp


No exception for me then - a condensing boiler would fit very easily
and the neighbours aren't near enough to bother about plumes.



I guess for the majority of cases, it will be a replacement boiler in
the kitchen.

However, there are some where the exemption points exceed the
threshold.

I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a
replacement boiler in the not too distant future.

They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of
the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house.

So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel
A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points
An extended flue of 2m would be needed to do that - 200 points
A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points

1240 points total

Whether they would be able to get a new back boiler is another thing,
of course.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Rob wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to
the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about
all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been
postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi
meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because
condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about
reliability. [snip]

Does he know what he's talking about

No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing
boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp

The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler
might be installed. A number are automatically considered to
be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does
not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following
numbers are for mains gas):

Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590

Resiting of existing boiler required: +350

Flue extensions 2m required: +200

Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed

Are there points if there is simply no alternative location? (And current
location is totally unsuited to a condensing boiler) Do you have to install
electric heating instead?

Christian.

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
Are there points if there is simply no alternative location?
(And current location is totally unsuited to a condensing boiler)
Do you have to install electric heating instead?

Yes, if you look at the actual document I referred to, there are a
whole load of locations that you can just cross off without scoring.
Apart from the ones I mentioned, others include needing flue
extensions 4m, where a flue extension would run up or along the main
elevation or where it the flue termination would cause a nuisance
(e.g. facing a highway or footpath at low level)

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

I guess for the majority of cases, it will be a replacement boiler
in
the kitchen.

That's my situation exactly.



Whether they would be able to get a new back boiler is another
thing,
of course.

They must be available, because the fitter in question said he fits a
lot of back boilers to run CH systems in this area (or probably more
over Barnsley way where everybody had coal fires until quite
recently), so I think that's at the root of his confusion over the
condensing boiler regs.


Update on the stove: the shop man initially said the manufacturers are
covering their backs by insisting on strict testing, and didn't think
it was necessary. He said the gas main pressure's the same everywhere
so doesn't need to be tested (which I doubt), and couldn't see why the
supply had to be tested with all appliances on. I guessed that if the
pressure was a bit low, the gas stove could go out if the cooker, CH
etc all came on, then fail to re-light when they were switched off,
and he sort of understood that.
He said they couldn't have connected the stove without turning the gas
off - "they wouldn't mess with a live gas supply, so they must have a
way round it."
I finally got him to agree to talk to the manager about possibly
sending someone out to fill in the test results (and possibly even do
the tests first!) when I pointed out that Yeomen were unlikely to
stand by their guarantee otherwise.
Why is it so hard to get anyone to do their job properly these days?
Is it any wonder people attempt DIY jobs that are beyond them - in
many cases they couldn't do it any worse than the "professionals"
(present company excepted, of course!) If you disagree, let me tell
you about my roofing repair (but I really would recommend you don't
ask!)
Rant over, for now.

Thanks Andy

Rob
--


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing
about
modern technology.

The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few
years ago,
they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless
condensing
models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant
that their
chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model.

Christian.

Thanks, Christian. I despair of ever finding an honest, competent
tradesman in any trade in this wild west city! It looks as if this
gas fitter isn't the man I thought he was. It's a pity, because he
turns up on time if you nag him enough, he's pleasant to talk to, and
his prices are reasonable.

Rob

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
However, see the exceptions assessment:


http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre
g_032807.hcsp

Exceptions are allowed for various situations.


Interesting reading. Can anybody tell me what a condensate pump is and how
it avoids rotting away in a few months ?

Also it mentions a condensate soakaway. The guy at the Environment Agency
told me these are not allowed where I live. This may apply to others but
isn't mentioned here.

Christian McArdle wrote:
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.



The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago,
they stopped.

IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived
boiler!

Regards
Capitol

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:25:09 -0000, "Mike" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
However, see the exceptions assessment:


http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre
g_032807.hcsp

Exceptions are allowed for various situations.


Interesting reading. Can anybody tell me what a condensate pump is and how
it avoids rotting away in a few months ?

It's a plastic reservoir with a pump and float switch. These are
widely used in air conditioning systems for when it's necessary to get
condensate from the internal unit to an inconvenient exterior
location.

In the context of a condensing boiler it needs to be constructed from
parts able to resist the slightly acidic condensate. This implies
plastic or suitable metal (e.g. stainless steel) parts.

The boiler will deliver the condensate downwards into the reservoir,
then when nearly full the float switch activates the pump and empties
it over some distance and height if needed.



Also it mentions a condensate soakaway. The guy at the Environment Agency
told me these are not allowed where I live. This may apply to others but
isn't mentioned here.

That would imply joined up government.........



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Rob wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to
the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about
all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been
postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi
meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because
condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about
reliability. [snip]

Does he know what he's talking about

No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing
boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp

The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler
might be installed. A number are automatically considered to
be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does
not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following
numbers are for mains gas):

Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590

Resiting of existing boiler required: +350

Flue extensions 2m required: +200

Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed


Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing
unit then. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing
unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:35:28 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.

Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing about
modern technology.

The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago,
they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless condensing
models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant that their
chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model.

Agreed. Profiles were the last OK model from them.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Rob wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to
the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about
all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been
postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi
meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because
condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about
reliability. [snip]

Does he know what he's talking about

No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing
boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week:


http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre
g_032807.hcsp

The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler
might be installed. A number are automatically considered to
be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does
not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following
numbers are for mains gas):

Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590

Resiting of existing boiler required: +350

Flue extensions 2m required: +200

Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed

Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing
unit then.

Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long
flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a
suitable location.

Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing
unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc.

I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular
and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not
act against a condensing boiler at all.

As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that
some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Christian McArdle wrote:
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.



The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years
ago,
they stopped.

IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived
boiler!

Tripe!!

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.


The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years
ago, they stopped.

IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived
boiler!

My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a
set of O rings.

Couldn't really ask for better.

Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM
clown recommends...

--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...


I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a
replacement boiler in the not too distant future.

They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of
the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house.

So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel
A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points
An extended flue of 2m would be needed to do that - 200 points
A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points

1240 points total


Would it be impossible to position it in a bedroom, with the flue going
through the loft/roof near the gutters (and therefore no extended flue),
adjacent to the bathroom/downpipes - and hence no condensate pump. Of
course whether you would want it in a bedroom is another matter.

James


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.777 / Virus Database: 524 - Release Date: 19/10/2004

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Christian McArdle wrote:
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.



The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years
ago,
they stopped.

IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived
boiler!


Ours is from 1985 and still running well. Guy comes to service it now and
then but even before he's opened it he always remarks it won't need
anything - and so far it hasn't.

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:48:29 -0000, "James"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a
replacement boiler in the not too distant future.

They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of
the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house.

So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel
A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points
An extended flue of 2m would be needed to do that - 200 points
A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points

1240 points total


Would it be impossible to position it in a bedroom, with the flue going
through the loft/roof near the gutters (and therefore no extended flue),
adjacent to the bathroom/downpipes - and hence no condensate pump. Of
course whether you would want it in a bedroom is another matter.

James


There isn't a bedroom within reasonable proximity of the appropriate
wall of the bathroom so at minimum a condensate pump would be needed

That still adds up to 590 + 350 + 100 = 1040.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a
set of O rings.

Couldn't really ask for better.


How about no repairs at all?

I believe there are very few Potterton boilers which have not been
replaced within 15 years of installation. I'd be interested to learn
otherwise.

Regards
Capitol

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very
reliable.


The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years
ago, they stopped.

IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived
boiler!

My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a
set of O rings.

Couldn't really ask for better.

Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM
clown recommends...

This is a bit rich coming from incompetent. Here is this Plowman giving
advise on CH..read on...

He also attempts to give advise and criticise views on heating, yet he said
about his gas boier.......

"Mine managed over 10 years without being touched before it needed a clean.
'Sooting up' once it starts, happens very quickly."

He didn't have his gas boiler serviced for over 10 years, and knows all the
answers in this field - he thinks. Only on the Internet you see this.

These people are dangerous man, very dangerous.

This what he wears, yes he does...he said...
"Well, I got a rather flash pair of DeWalt boots from TLC, so there.;-)"

Sad isn't it. Big yellow boots. Yes. big yellow boots.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a
set of O rings.

Couldn't really ask for better.

How about no repairs at all?

Well, yes. But nothing lasts forever.

I believe there are very few Potterton boilers which have not been
replaced within 15 years of installation. I'd be interested to learn
otherwise.

The NetaHeat - which is a later model than mine is generally pretty
reliable too. Think the rot may have started about 15 years ago.

--
*Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the
IMM clown recommends...

This is a bit rich coming from incompetent.

I'm pleased to see you admit it at last.


Here is this Plowman giving advise

"Mine managed over 10 years without being touched before it needed a
clean.

Sad isn't it. Big yellow boots. Yes. big yellow boots.

Well, they started out black. But not cleaning them makes them yellow.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Rob wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to
the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about
all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been
postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi
meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because
condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about
reliability. [snip]

Does he know what he's talking about

No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing
boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last
week:



http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ents/page/odpm
_bre
g_032807.hcsp

The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler
might be installed. A number are automatically considered to
be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does
not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following
numbers are for mains gas):

Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590

Resiting of existing boiler required: +350

Flue extensions 2m required: +200

Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed

Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a
non-condensing
unit then.

Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With
long
flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a
suitable location.

Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing
unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps
etc.

I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser.
Regular
and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should
not
act against a condensing boiler at all.

As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know
that
some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths.


I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback of
the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra
expense and so impact the payback period.

The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the
IMM clown recommends...

This is a bit rich coming from incompetent.

I'm pleased to see you admit it at last.

I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much
has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is
concerned.

FWIW I have a Potterton Profile Prima which I installed just after the
gas regulations changed (I can't remember when that was but ISTR it was
quite a while ago). It hasn't been particularly unreliable but last
winter the sealed for life bearings in the fan dried up and I had to pay
an outrageous price to get a replacement assembly PDQ. (Advice on a
cheap source of genuine Potterton spares would be appreciated.)

--
Roger

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:11:40 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long
flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a
suitable location.

Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing
unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc.

I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular
and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not
act against a condensing boiler at all.

The scoring indicates that they are accounting for inconvenience and
cost.

Moving the boiler to a different room involves new plumbing of water
and gas connections.

A long flue (in some makes) adds a lot to the cost of materials, plus
there may not be a convenient route to run it, plus making good after
installation........


As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that
some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths.


That's something for the vendors to address.

Having said that, I have a feeling that this exemption thing has the
potential for abuse - i.e. if the customer doesnt want a condensing
boiler or the non-condensing one remains cheaper etc. the form gets
filled in. The wording is sufficiently loose in that the
householder only has to say that a possible location is not suitable
and the fitter signs off the paper. Nobody's going to pick it up
AFAICS.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Rob wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to
the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about
all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been
postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi
meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because
condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about
reliability. [snip]

Does he know what he's talking about

No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing
boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last
week:



http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ents/page/odpm
_bre
g_032807.hcsp

The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler
might be installed. A number are automatically considered to
be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does
not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following
numbers are for mains gas):

Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590

Resiting of existing boiler required: +350

Flue extensions 2m required: +200

Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed

Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a
non-condensing
unit then.

Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With
long
flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a
suitable location.

Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing
unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps
etc.

I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser.
Regular
and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should
not
act against a condensing boiler at all.

As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know
that
some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths.


I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback of
the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra
expense and so impact the payback period.

Not necessessily. I recommended to install a Keston boiler in a loft in a
knocked up ply or MDF cupboard at a end gable, with some insulation over,
and run the flue the length of the loft to the other gable using cheap
plastic waste pipe. The heat of the flue pipe will assist in keeping the
loft slightly warmer. Feedback was that the loft is far warmer in the
recent cold snap. Plastic pipe is cheap enough to buy and a benefit too.

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as
the
IMM clown recommends...

This is a bit rich coming from incompetent.

I'm pleased to see you admit it at last.

I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much
has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is
concerned.

Wrong id. Several years away. Please stay away then.

FWIW I have a Potterton Profile Prima which I installed just after the
gas regulations changed (I can't remember when that was but ISTR it was
quite a while ago). It hasn't been particularly unreliable but last
winter the sealed for life bearings in the fan dried up and I had to pay
an outrageous price to get a replacement assembly PDQ. (Advice on a
cheap source of genuine Potterton spares would be appreciated.)

You dork! Maxie sells them reconned for a fraction of the price and
guarantees them a year. £35-40.

http://www.cetltd.com/

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback
of
the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra
expense and so impact the payback period.

Not necessessily. I recommended to install a Keston boiler in a loft
in a
knocked up ply or MDF cupboard at a end gable, with some insulation
over,
and run the flue the length of the loft to the other gable using cheap
plastic waste pipe. The heat of the flue pipe will assist in keeping
the
loft slightly warmer. Feedback was that the loft is far warmer in the
recent cold snap. Plastic pipe is cheap enough to buy and a benefit
too.

Of course, but if you start saying "extended flue +200 points unless you
can use twin plastic pipes in which case +50" it starts getting more and
more complicated

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback
of
the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra
expense and so impact the payback period.

Not necessessily. I recommended to install a Keston boiler in a loft
in a
knocked up ply or MDF cupboard at a end gable, with some insulation
over,
and run the flue the length of the loft to the other gable using cheap
plastic waste pipe. The heat of the flue pipe will assist in keeping
the
loft slightly warmer. Feedback was that the loft is far warmer in the
recent cold snap. Plastic pipe is cheap enough to buy and a benefit
too.

Of course, but if you start saying "extended flue +200 points unless you
can use twin plastic pipes in which case +50" it starts getting more and
more complicated

This form assumes the person filling it in knows the market and what is
available. That is a poor assumption when taking into account and industry
that has only just accepted non-cast iron boilers.

In article , Imm wrote:
I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser.
Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue
length should not act against a condensing boiler at all.

But the appraisal form is about considering how reasonable it is to
install a condensing boiler, and the notes do say that even if the
points score means that you don't have to install one it may still
be a good idea to do so.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
IMM wrote:
I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing
much has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is
concerned.

Wrong id. Several years away. Please stay away then.


Google shows him to have as strange a selection of views as you - and a
similar style of 'writing'.

Perhaps he's your long lost twin?

--
*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
strung together this:

Perhaps he's your long lost twin?

********, two of them, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.................
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Wrong id. Several years away. Please stay away then.

Google shows him to have as strange a selection of views as you - and a
similar style of 'writing'.

Perhaps he's your long lost twin?

Believe me this Roger chappie is no relation to me and is nothing like me.
Thank God. It is almost as insulting as saying I am like you.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:11:40 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long
flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a
suitable location.

Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing
unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc.

I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser.
Regular
and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should
not
act against a condensing boiler at all.

The scoring indicates that they are accounting for inconvenience and
cost.

Moving the boiler to a different room involves new plumbing of water
and gas connections.

A long flue (in some makes) adds a lot to the cost of materials, plus
there may not be a convenient route to run it, plus making good after
installation........


As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that
some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths.


That's something for the vendors to address.

Having said that, I have a feeling that this exemption thing has the
potential for abuse - i.e. if the customer doesnt want a condensing
boiler or the non-condensing one remains cheaper etc. the form gets
filled in. The wording is sufficiently loose in that the
householder only has to say that a possible location is not suitable
and the fitter signs off the paper. Nobody's going to pick it up
AFAICS.

Until few condensing boilers are sold and the Ministry starts to see why.

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much
has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is
concerned.

Wrong id.

Oh, have you changed your name then?
It looks like you stopped calling yourself
John Burns-Curtis about 2 years ago on the net.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing
much
has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is
concerned.

Wrong id.

Oh, have you changed your name then?
It looks like you stopped calling yourself
John Burns-Curtis about 2 years ago on the net.

No, he still calls himself that in some places.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:37:37 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Having said that, I have a feeling that this exemption thing has the
potential for abuse - i.e. if the customer doesnt want a condensing
boiler or the non-condensing one remains cheaper etc. the form gets
filled in. The wording is sufficiently loose in that the
householder only has to say that a possible location is not suitable
and the fitter signs off the paper. Nobody's going to pick it up
AFAICS.

Until few condensing boilers are sold and the Ministry starts to see why.


About 2006-7 by the time data is gathered.

It will be interesting to see what the vendors do. Presumably
condensing products will drop a bit in price as volumes increase.
Whether older non-condensers will increase in price as volume drops or
not because the return on development is already retrieved it's hard
to say.

The implication would seem to be that for replacements of wall mount
boilers that assuming they are on an outside wall that a condensing
replacement would have to happen, since a) no move of room and b)
likely to be on outside wall if present unit is oldish without fan
flue.

Replacements of floor standing units in existing location could also
not be exempt because if the points for a house plus long flue plus
condensate drain are added it comes to 890 for detached/semi/end
terrace or 940 for mid terrace. I guess that floor standing units
in a flat are not that common.

So it seems to only leave back burners after the above cases.

Clearly the points system has been contrived with various combinations
in mind to only exempt the corner cases - the numbers would be more
rounded if not.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl