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Condensing boilers rule?
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss
fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. Does he know what he's talking about (on both counts)? Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the Yeoman gas stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage test should have been done, as well as a burner pressure test with all other appliances turned on, and the result recorded in the booklet along with the signature of the installation engineer. Well, nothing has been recorded, and they didn't ask me about other appliances, so I assume the tests weren't done. Is this just fussing by the manufacturer, or should I follow it up? In the way of most tradesman I've dealt with in this area I would expect them to just bung it in, light it up and say the job's a good 'un, though as installers for the biggest gas fire showroom in the area they presumably know what they're doing. |
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:27:49 -0000, "Rob" wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. Does he know what he's talking about (on both counts)? If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is saying (a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect. http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032806.hcsp However, see the exceptions assessment: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp Exceptions are allowed for various situations. Perhaps this is what the guy is talking about. There is still an old wive's tale among some installers that condensing boilers are unreliable. This used to be the case with early UK designs, but those from Germany and Holland were good. Most of the new products originate from designs or including components from Germany and reliability is much better.. As you can see there is a points system in the exceptions assessment, and it wouldn't be too hard for people to reach the 1000 point threshold in some instances. Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the Yeoman gas stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage test should have been done, as well as a burner pressure test with all other appliances turned on, and the result recorded in the booklet along with the signature of the installation engineer. Well, nothing has been recorded, and they didn't ask me about other appliances, so I assume the tests weren't done. Is this just fussing by the manufacturer, or should I follow it up? In the way of most tradesman I've dealt with in this area I would expect them to just bung it in, light it up and say the job's a good 'un, though as installers for the biggest gas fire showroom in the area they presumably know what they're doing. Not if they didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and instructions. Did they do a gas soundness test? This involves connecting a pressure gauge and testing any drop in pressure with the gas turned off at the meter. The details are slightly more involved as far as the procedure is concerned (see Ed's gas fitting FAQ) but that is the principle. If they haven't done these things then they should be pulled back to do them. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi
Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing about modern technology. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless condensing models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant that their chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model. Christian. |
he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is saying (a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect. http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032806.hcsp However, see the exceptions assessment: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp No exception for me then - a condensing boiler would fit very easily and the neighbours aren't near enough to bother about plumes. Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the Yeoman gas stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage test should have been done...should I follow it up? ...they presumably know what they're doing. Not if they didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and instructions. Did they do a gas soundness test? This involves connecting a pressure gauge and testing any drop in pressure with the gas turned off at the meter. The details are slightly more involved as far as the procedure is concerned (see Ed's gas fitting FAQ) but that is the principle. If they haven't done these things then they should be pulled back to do them. Well, I know they didn't turn the gas off at any time when fitting the stove, because I asked them. I think they might have done the test you describe after disconnecting the old gas fire and capping the pipe until the new stove arrived, but I've got nothing in writing. I think I'll speak to the shop that sent them. To be continued... -- .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:46:36 -0000, "Rob" wrote:
he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is saying (a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect. http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032806.hcsp However, see the exceptions assessment: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp No exception for me then - a condensing boiler would fit very easily and the neighbours aren't near enough to bother about plumes. I guess for the majority of cases, it will be a replacement boiler in the kitchen. However, there are some where the exemption points exceed the threshold. I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a replacement boiler in the not too distant future. They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house. So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points An extended flue of 2m would be needed to do that - 200 points A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points 1240 points total Whether they would be able to get a new back boiler is another thing, of course. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
In article , Rob wrote:
Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. [snip] Does he know what he's talking about No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler might be installed. A number are automatically considered to be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following numbers are for mains gas): Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590 Resiting of existing boiler required: +350 Flue extensions 2m required: +200 Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100 If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a condensing boiler must be installed -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a
condensing boiler must be installed Are there points if there is simply no alternative location? (And current location is totally unsuited to a condensing boiler) Do you have to install electric heating instead? Christian. |
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote: Are there points if there is simply no alternative location? (And current location is totally unsuited to a condensing boiler) Do you have to install electric heating instead? Yes, if you look at the actual document I referred to, there are a whole load of locations that you can just cross off without scoring. Apart from the ones I mentioned, others include needing flue extensions 4m, where a flue extension would run up or along the main elevation or where it the flue termination would cause a nuisance (e.g. facing a highway or footpath at low level) -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
I guess for the majority of cases, it will be a replacement boiler in the kitchen. That's my situation exactly. Whether they would be able to get a new back boiler is another thing, of course. They must be available, because the fitter in question said he fits a lot of back boilers to run CH systems in this area (or probably more over Barnsley way where everybody had coal fires until quite recently), so I think that's at the root of his confusion over the condensing boiler regs. Update on the stove: the shop man initially said the manufacturers are covering their backs by insisting on strict testing, and didn't think it was necessary. He said the gas main pressure's the same everywhere so doesn't need to be tested (which I doubt), and couldn't see why the supply had to be tested with all appliances on. I guessed that if the pressure was a bit low, the gas stove could go out if the cooker, CH etc all came on, then fail to re-light when they were switched off, and he sort of understood that. He said they couldn't have connected the stove without turning the gas off - "they wouldn't mess with a live gas supply, so they must have a way round it." I finally got him to agree to talk to the manager about possibly sending someone out to fill in the test results (and possibly even do the tests first!) when I pointed out that Yeomen were unlikely to stand by their guarantee otherwise. Why is it so hard to get anyone to do their job properly these days? Is it any wonder people attempt DIY jobs that are beyond them - in many cases they couldn't do it any worse than the "professionals" (present company excepted, of course!) If you disagree, let me tell you about my roofing repair (but I really would recommend you don't ask!) Rant over, for now. Thanks Andy Rob -- .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing about modern technology. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless condensing models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant that their chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model. Christian. Thanks, Christian. I despair of ever finding an honest, competent tradesman in any trade in this wild west city! It looks as if this gas fitter isn't the man I thought he was. It's a pity, because he turns up on time if you nag him enough, he's pleasant to talk to, and his prices are reasonable. Rob |
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... However, see the exceptions assessment: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre g_032807.hcsp Exceptions are allowed for various situations. Interesting reading. Can anybody tell me what a condensate pump is and how it avoids rotting away in a few months ? Also it mentions a condensate soakaway. The guy at the Environment Agency told me these are not allowed where I live. This may apply to others but isn't mentioned here. |
Christian McArdle wrote: He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived boiler! Regards Capitol |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:25:09 -0000, "Mike" wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . However, see the exceptions assessment: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre g_032807.hcsp Exceptions are allowed for various situations. Interesting reading. Can anybody tell me what a condensate pump is and how it avoids rotting away in a few months ? It's a plastic reservoir with a pump and float switch. These are widely used in air conditioning systems for when it's necessary to get condensate from the internal unit to an inconvenient exterior location. In the context of a condensing boiler it needs to be constructed from parts able to resist the slightly acidic condensate. This implies plastic or suitable metal (e.g. stainless steel) parts. The boiler will deliver the condensate downwards into the reservoir, then when nearly full the float switch activates the pump and empties it over some distance and height if needed. Also it mentions a condensate soakaway. The guy at the Environment Agency told me these are not allowed where I live. This may apply to others but isn't mentioned here. That would imply joined up government......... -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , Rob wrote: Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. [snip] Does he know what he's talking about No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_032807.hcsp The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler might be installed. A number are automatically considered to be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following numbers are for mains gas): Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590 Resiting of existing boiler required: +350 Flue extensions 2m required: +200 Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100 If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a condensing boiler must be installed Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing unit then. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:35:28 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:
He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing about modern technology. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless condensing models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant that their chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model. Agreed. Profiles were the last OK model from them. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message n.co.uk... On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote: In article , Rob wrote: Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. [snip] Does he know what he's talking about No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre g_032807.hcsp The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler might be installed. A number are automatically considered to be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following numbers are for mains gas): Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590 Resiting of existing boiler required: +350 Flue extensions 2m required: +200 Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100 If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a condensing boiler must be installed Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing unit then. Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a suitable location. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc. I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all. As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths. |
"Capitol" wrote in message ... Christian McArdle wrote: He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived boiler! Tripe!! |
In article ,
Capitol wrote: He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived boiler! My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a set of O rings. Couldn't really ask for better. Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM clown recommends... -- *I love cats...they taste just like chicken. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a replacement boiler in the not too distant future. They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house. So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points An extended flue of 2m would be needed to do that - 200 points A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points 1240 points total Would it be impossible to position it in a bedroom, with the flue going through the loft/roof near the gutters (and therefore no extended flue), adjacent to the bathroom/downpipes - and hence no condensate pump. Of course whether you would want it in a bedroom is another matter. James --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.777 / Virus Database: 524 - Release Date: 19/10/2004 |
"Capitol" wrote in message ... Christian McArdle wrote: He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived boiler! Ours is from 1985 and still running well. Guy comes to service it now and then but even before he's opened it he always remarks it won't need anything - and so far it hasn't. |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:48:29 -0000, "James"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a replacement boiler in the not too distant future. They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house. So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points An extended flue of 2m would be needed to do that - 200 points A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points 1240 points total Would it be impossible to position it in a bedroom, with the flue going through the loft/roof near the gutters (and therefore no extended flue), adjacent to the bathroom/downpipes - and hence no condensate pump. Of course whether you would want it in a bedroom is another matter. James There isn't a bedroom within reasonable proximity of the appropriate wall of the bathroom so at minimum a condensate pump would be needed That still adds up to 590 + 350 + 100 = 1040. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a set of O rings. Couldn't really ask for better. How about no repairs at all? I believe there are very few Potterton boilers which have not been replaced within 15 years of installation. I'd be interested to learn otherwise. Regards Capitol |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Capitol wrote: He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived boiler! My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a set of O rings. Couldn't really ask for better. Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM clown recommends... This is a bit rich coming from incompetent. Here is this Plowman giving advise on CH..read on... He also attempts to give advise and criticise views on heating, yet he said about his gas boier....... "Mine managed over 10 years without being touched before it needed a clean. 'Sooting up' once it starts, happens very quickly." He didn't have his gas boiler serviced for over 10 years, and knows all the answers in this field - he thinks. Only on the Internet you see this. These people are dangerous man, very dangerous. This what he wears, yes he does...he said... "Well, I got a rather flash pair of DeWalt boots from TLC, so there.;-)" Sad isn't it. Big yellow boots. Yes. big yellow boots. |
In article ,
Capitol wrote: My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a set of O rings. Couldn't really ask for better. How about no repairs at all? Well, yes. But nothing lasts forever. I believe there are very few Potterton boilers which have not been replaced within 15 years of installation. I'd be interested to learn otherwise. The NetaHeat - which is a later model than mine is generally pretty reliable too. Think the rot may have started about 15 years ago. -- *Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article ,
IMM wrote: Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM clown recommends... This is a bit rich coming from incompetent. I'm pleased to see you admit it at last. Here is this Plowman giving advise "Mine managed over 10 years without being touched before it needed a clean. Sad isn't it. Big yellow boots. Yes. big yellow boots. Well, they started out black. But not cleaning them makes them yellow. -- *Why is the word abbreviation so long? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"IMM" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message n.co.uk... On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote: In article , Rob wrote: Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. [snip] Does he know what he's talking about No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ents/page/odpm _bre g_032807.hcsp The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler might be installed. A number are automatically considered to be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following numbers are for mains gas): Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590 Resiting of existing boiler required: +350 Flue extensions 2m required: +200 Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100 If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a condensing boiler must be installed Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing unit then. Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a suitable location. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc. I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all. As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths. I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback of the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra expense and so impact the payback period. |
The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words: Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM clown recommends... This is a bit rich coming from incompetent. I'm pleased to see you admit it at last. I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is concerned. FWIW I have a Potterton Profile Prima which I installed just after the gas regulations changed (I can't remember when that was but ISTR it was quite a while ago). It hasn't been particularly unreliable but last winter the sealed for life bearings in the fan dried up and I had to pay an outrageous price to get a replacement assembly PDQ. (Advice on a cheap source of genuine Potterton spares would be appreciated.) -- Roger |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:11:40 -0000, "IMM" wrote:
Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a suitable location. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc. I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all. The scoring indicates that they are accounting for inconvenience and cost. Moving the boiler to a different room involves new plumbing of water and gas connections. A long flue (in some makes) adds a lot to the cost of materials, plus there may not be a convenient route to run it, plus making good after installation........ As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths. That's something for the vendors to address. Having said that, I have a feeling that this exemption thing has the potential for abuse - i.e. if the customer doesnt want a condensing boiler or the non-condensing one remains cheaper etc. the form gets filled in. The wording is sufficiently loose in that the householder only has to say that a possible location is not suitable and the fitter signs off the paper. Nobody's going to pick it up AFAICS. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ... "IMM" wrote in message ... "Ed Sirett" wrote in message n.co.uk... On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:40 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote: In article , Rob wrote: Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. [snip] Does he know what he's talking about No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ents/page/odpm _bre g_032807.hcsp The installer has to consider the various places where a boiler might be installed. A number are automatically considered to be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following numbers are for mains gas): Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590 Resiting of existing boiler required: +350 Flue extensions 2m required: +200 Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100 If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a condensing boiler must be installed Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing unit then. Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a suitable location. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc. I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all. As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths. I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback of the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra expense and so impact the payback period. Not necessessily. I recommended to install a Keston boiler in a loft in a knocked up ply or MDF cupboard at a end gable, with some insulation over, and run the flue the length of the loft to the other gable using cheap plastic waste pipe. The heat of the flue pipe will assist in keeping the loft slightly warmer. Feedback was that the loft is far warmer in the recent cold snap. Plastic pipe is cheap enough to buy and a benefit too. |
"Roger" wrote in message k... The message from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words: Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM clown recommends... This is a bit rich coming from incompetent. I'm pleased to see you admit it at last. I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is concerned. Wrong id. Several years away. Please stay away then. FWIW I have a Potterton Profile Prima which I installed just after the gas regulations changed (I can't remember when that was but ISTR it was quite a while ago). It hasn't been particularly unreliable but last winter the sealed for life bearings in the fan dried up and I had to pay an outrageous price to get a replacement assembly PDQ. (Advice on a cheap source of genuine Potterton spares would be appreciated.) You dork! Maxie sells them reconned for a fraction of the price and guarantees them a year. £35-40. http://www.cetltd.com/ |
"IMM" wrote in message ... "Neil Jones" wrote in message ... I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback of the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra expense and so impact the payback period. Not necessessily. I recommended to install a Keston boiler in a loft in a knocked up ply or MDF cupboard at a end gable, with some insulation over, and run the flue the length of the loft to the other gable using cheap plastic waste pipe. The heat of the flue pipe will assist in keeping the loft slightly warmer. Feedback was that the loft is far warmer in the recent cold snap. Plastic pipe is cheap enough to buy and a benefit too. Of course, but if you start saying "extended flue +200 points unless you can use twin plastic pipes in which case +50" it starts getting more and more complicated |
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ... "IMM" wrote in message ... "Neil Jones" wrote in message ... I read this document as a simplistic attempt to estimate the payback of the installation. Long flues can be used but they will incur extra expense and so impact the payback period. Not necessessily. I recommended to install a Keston boiler in a loft in a knocked up ply or MDF cupboard at a end gable, with some insulation over, and run the flue the length of the loft to the other gable using cheap plastic waste pipe. The heat of the flue pipe will assist in keeping the loft slightly warmer. Feedback was that the loft is far warmer in the recent cold snap. Plastic pipe is cheap enough to buy and a benefit too. Of course, but if you start saying "extended flue +200 points unless you can use twin plastic pipes in which case +50" it starts getting more and more complicated This form assumes the person filling it in knows the market and what is available. That is a poor assumption when taking into account and industry that has only just accepted non-cast iron boilers. |
In article , Imm wrote:
I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all. But the appraisal form is about considering how reasonable it is to install a condensing boiler, and the notes do say that even if the points score means that you don't have to install one it may still be a good idea to do so. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
In article ,
IMM wrote: I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is concerned. Wrong id. Several years away. Please stay away then. Google shows him to have as strange a selection of views as you - and a similar style of 'writing'. Perhaps he's your long lost twin? -- *We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
strung together this: Perhaps he's your long lost twin? ********, two of them, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo................. -- SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... Wrong id. Several years away. Please stay away then. Google shows him to have as strange a selection of views as you - and a similar style of 'writing'. Perhaps he's your long lost twin? Believe me this Roger chappie is no relation to me and is nothing like me. Thank God. It is almost as insulting as saying I am like you. |
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:11:40 -0000, "IMM" wrote: Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a suitable location. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc. I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all. The scoring indicates that they are accounting for inconvenience and cost. Moving the boiler to a different room involves new plumbing of water and gas connections. A long flue (in some makes) adds a lot to the cost of materials, plus there may not be a convenient route to run it, plus making good after installation........ As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths. That's something for the vendors to address. Having said that, I have a feeling that this exemption thing has the potential for abuse - i.e. if the customer doesnt want a condensing boiler or the non-condensing one remains cheaper etc. the form gets filled in. The wording is sufficiently loose in that the householder only has to say that a possible location is not suitable and the fitter signs off the paper. Nobody's going to pick it up AFAICS. Until few condensing boilers are sold and the Ministry starts to see why. |
In article ,
"IMM" writes: "Roger" wrote in message k... I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is concerned. Wrong id. Oh, have you changed your name then? It looks like you stopped calling yourself John Burns-Curtis about 2 years ago on the net. -- Andrew Gabriel |
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , "IMM" writes: "Roger" wrote in message k... I have just looked in after several years away to find that nothing much has changed, at least as far as John Burns-Curtis (AKA IMM) is concerned. Wrong id. Oh, have you changed your name then? It looks like you stopped calling yourself John Burns-Curtis about 2 years ago on the net. No, he still calls himself that in some places. |
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:37:37 -0000, "IMM" wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . Having said that, I have a feeling that this exemption thing has the potential for abuse - i.e. if the customer doesnt want a condensing boiler or the non-condensing one remains cheaper etc. the form gets filled in. The wording is sufficiently loose in that the householder only has to say that a possible location is not suitable and the fitter signs off the paper. Nobody's going to pick it up AFAICS. Until few condensing boilers are sold and the Ministry starts to see why. About 2006-7 by the time data is gathered. It will be interesting to see what the vendors do. Presumably condensing products will drop a bit in price as volumes increase. Whether older non-condensers will increase in price as volume drops or not because the return on development is already retrieved it's hard to say. The implication would seem to be that for replacements of wall mount boilers that assuming they are on an outside wall that a condensing replacement would have to happen, since a) no move of room and b) likely to be on outside wall if present unit is oldish without fan flue. Replacements of floor standing units in existing location could also not be exempt because if the points for a house plus long flue plus condensate drain are added it comes to 890 for detached/semi/end terrace or 940 for mid terrace. I guess that floor standing units in a flat are not that common. So it seems to only leave back burners after the above cases. Clearly the points system has been contrived with various combinations in mind to only exempt the corner cases - the numbers would be more rounded if not. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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