On 20/10/2020 17:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 16:29, Roger Mills wrote:
Although a lot of my journeys are short, I do enough long journeys to
a BEV unviable with the range currently available. Hopefully battery
development will yield higher capacity batteries without increasing
the size and weight. Even so, a full charge will then take longer.

fast charging is something batteries can already do - a one hour flat to
full is well within lithium capabilities, but I haven't seen much in the
way of better energy to weight in the last ten years. Cost is about half
what it was ten years ago.

The limits on fast charging is really the local last mile grid. Few
houses have 100A fuses and that is the limit for a normal domestic
installation. 25kW will still take 4 hours to cram the electrons into a
100kWh battery...leaving nothing left over for the mandatory house
heat-pump.



Indeed. The fastest home charger is currently 22kW, and that requires a
3-phase supply - which few people have. Otherwise it's a maximum of
around 7kW.
--
Cheers,
Roger

charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 22:28, Tim+ wrote:

You made a bad choice of EV then. ”Real life• range for mine is 240
to 270. I‘d only need one stop at a rapid charger. Don‘t condemn
EVs just because you picked the wrong one for your needs.

That is a lie. All Evs have been tested by independent testers in real
word conditions and I dont think any made it over 200 miles.

You are so seriously out of date it‘s laughable. Clearly not done any
market research in years.

The EV I was contemplating buyingbhad an advertised range of 235 miles.
Real mileage 180.


There are other EVs available. Have a look at the Korean offering, the Kia
Soul, eNiro and the Hyundai Kona with the 65kWh batteries. These have
repeatedly been demonstrated to achieve their claimed range of 280 miles,
450 km.

For example.

https://youtu.be/RaH8UX0sfkU

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 08:11, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 22:28, Tim+ wrote:

You made a bad choice of EV then. €œReal life€� range for mine is 240 to
270. Id only need one stop at a rapid charger. Dont condemn EVs just
because you picked the wrong one for your needs.

That is a lie.
All Evs have been tested by independent testers in real word conditions
and I dont think any made it over 200 miles.

You are so seriously out of date its laughable. Clearly not done any
market research in years.

no this was two months ago.

So now the sneers are happening I KNOW you are lying.


And yet you keep spreading yours...

Yes, claimed ranges are often works of fiction but there are many EVs
capable of 200 miles.

https://youtu.be/ZH7V2tU3iFc

Fast forward to the end for the results.

Kia are notable for being much closer to their claimed ranges than anyone
else.

https://youtu.be/RaH8UX0sfkU

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

Jethro_uk wrote:

Was it Tesla that had to eat their words after Top Gear proved their
rubbish range ?

The fact that people have suddenly become as evangelical about electric
vehicles as vegans is enough to ensure I don't waste a second of my life
considering them.


Thank you!! Id be the first to admit the charging infrastructure is far
from mature. The fewer people using it the better for me. ;-)

Seriously, I dont give a toss what anyone else drives but it seems that
many folk are scared of change and will invent reasons why EVs cant
possibly work. The fact is, they do. Whats more theyre so much nicer to
drive (as youll find if you can ever pluck up the courage to test drive
one) that youll find the €œissues€� that seem so insurmountable from afar
are in fact generally easy to overcome.

Yes, there are issues for folk without off street parking but if you have
off street parking and your own charge point they make a lot of sense.

As I type, my car is 5 minutes walk away on a 7kW free charger. When did
you last get free petrol or diesel?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 20/10/2020 18:29, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 16:29, Roger Mills wrote:
Although a lot of my journeys are short, I do enough long journeys to a
BEV unviable with the range currently available. Hopefully battery
development will yield higher capacity batteries without increasing the
size and weight. Even so, a full charge will then take longer.

fast charging is something batteries can already do - a one hour flat to
full is well within lithium capabilities, but I haven't seen much in the
way of better energy to weight in the last ten years. Cost is about half
what it was ten years ago.

The limits on fast charging is really the local last mile grid. Few
houses have 100A fuses and that is the limit for a normal domestic
installation. 25kW will still take 4 hours to cram the electrons into a
100kWh battery...leaving nothing left over for the mandatory house
heat-pump.



But you dont need fast charging at home. A 7kW charger is quite adequate
for overnight charging.

Tim


That depends on battery size. If higher capacity batteries are developed
which produce an acceptable range, 7kW my well not be enough.

I'm currently leading a study into the possibility of installing charge
points in the remote garages belonging to the building of which my
holiday flat is a part. The cost would be considerable due to the need
to run cables about 50 metres underground. It's a nightmare trying to
anticipate future requirements in order to make it as 'future proof' as
possible.
--
Cheers,
Roger

Roger Mills wrote:
On 20/10/2020 18:29, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 16:29, Roger Mills wrote:
Although a lot of my journeys are short, I do enough long journeys to a
BEV unviable with the range currently available. Hopefully battery
development will yield higher capacity batteries without increasing the
size and weight. Even so, a full charge will then take longer.

fast charging is something batteries can already do - a one hour flat to
full is well within lithium capabilities, but I haven't seen much in the
way of better energy to weight in the last ten years. Cost is about half
what it was ten years ago.

The limits on fast charging is really the local last mile grid. Few
houses have 100A fuses and that is the limit for a normal domestic
installation. 25kW will still take 4 hours to cram the electrons into a
100kWh battery...leaving nothing left over for the mandatory house
heat-pump.



But you dont need fast charging at home. A 7kW charger is quite adequate
for overnight charging.

Tim


That depends on battery size. If higher capacity batteries are developed
which produce an acceptable range, 7kW my well not be enough.

My car has a 65kWh battery and a real world range of 250-280 miles. In
theory, about 10 hours to fully charge then. Okay, there are cars that
have bigger batteries but how many people are likely to use all their range
every day and not have enough time for 8- 12 hrs charging at home?

Yes, you can invent scenarios where you might struggle to fill a large
battery fully every night at home but youd have to be clocking up some
serious mileage! In practice, 7kW for home charging is more than adequate.
Based on a 3.5miles/kWh that my car easily achieves, thats charging at a
rate of about 25 miles range every hour.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:20:27 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Seriously, I dont give a toss what anyone else drives but it seems that
many folk are scared of change and will invent reasons why EVs cant
possibly work. The fact is, they do. Whats more theyre so much nicer
to drive (as youll find if you can ever pluck up the courage to test
drive one) that youll find the €œissues€� that seem so insurmountable
from afar are in fact generally easy to overcome.

You totally and utterly missed the suggestion that private motoring is in
the throes of fundamental reappraisal despite all and every measure the
vested interests might have in pretending otherwise.

I didnt miss it, I ignored it.

I'm not imagining a world where 20,000,000 cars become batteried
overnight. I am imagining a world where *because* of batteried cars and
other developments, there will only be 1,000,000 cars.

That may well be true in the long run but in the meantime and relatively
short term, our government is pushing the shift to EVs.

Because just as the UK decides to dig up every pavement road and street
to fit EV charging points galore, I'm thinking the first "smart" use of a
car will be to get it to drive off and recharge itself at a local
charging centre - possibly the car park of a big supermarket, which are
my nearest EV charging points.

So you would reduce congestion by not only having folk driving cars, but
also having driverless cars filling the road?


It's not smart cars *or* electric cars. It will be both.

You seem to want a different argument. Feel free to carry on without me. I
was only trying t correct TNPs lies.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim Streater wrote:
On 21 Oct 2020 at 11:20:27 BST, Tim+ wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:

Was it Tesla that had to eat their words after Top Gear proved their
rubbish range ?

The fact that people have suddenly become as evangelical about electric
vehicles as vegans is enough to ensure I don't waste a second of my life
considering them.


Thank you!! Id be the first to admit the charging infrastructure is far
from mature. The fewer people using it the better for me. ;-)

Seriously, I dont give a toss what anyone else drives but it seems that
many folk are scared of change and will invent reasons why EVs cant
possibly work. The fact is, they do. Whats more theyre so much nicer to
drive (as youll find if you can ever pluck up the courage to test drive
one) that youll find the €œissues€� that seem so insurmountable from afar
are in fact generally easy to overcome.

IMO, a pure EV car is not a good idea as the charging infrastructure is not
there.

I would agree that the charging infrastructure is immature and whilst that
could be a major handicap to many people, there are many many people who
can manage on home charging alone for the vast majority of their motoring.
Just because its not a good idea for you doesnt make them a bad idea for
everybody. People are apt to forget that when you have your own €œfuel
station€� at home, you really dont need other chargers that often if you
buy a car with decent range.

Ive done 3000 miles since the 1st of September and only plugged into
public charges on a few occasions, none of which I *needed* to use, but as
they were free it seemed churlish not to. ;-)


For now, a car with a decent range and a small ICE only for charging
would be the best solution as it would remove people's range-insecurity.

Yes, there are issues for folk without off street parking but if you have
off street parking and your own charge point they make a lot of sense.

On-street parking is the reality for most people, due to someone's policy of
insisting houses be built small, close together, and without garages.

As I type, my car is 5 minutes walk away on a 7kW free charger. When did
you last get free petrol or diesel?

Well that won't last will it.

Almost certainly not, but I until then, its a nice perk.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 21/10/2020 10:36, Jethro_uk wrote:
Was it Tesla that had to eat their words after Top Gear proved their
rubbish range ?

Not sure. the Jaguar I pace allegedly really cracks 200 miles and a
couple of others.

My jaguar XF is supposed to do 50mpg. Its hard to get it over 35. The
moment you hit the brakes - that's it. It's a heavy car to get up to
speed, again.


The fact that people have suddenly become as evangelical about electric
vehicles as vegans is enough to ensure I don't waste a second of my life
considering them.

Indeed. Once people start touting *emotional* reasons (an oxymoron
really) then I do wonder. Emotions are fair enough - I *like* driving my
car, and that counts - BUT I don't claim that as a rational response to
car buying.

T i m and chums always present *emotional* narratives as *rational*.

Hitler used to do that, too.


--
€œIt is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.€�

ۥ Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 21/10/2020 11:20, Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 22:28, Tim+ wrote:

You made a bad choice of EV then. ”Real life• range for mine is 240
to 270. I‘d only need one stop at a rapid charger. Don‘t condemn
EVs just because you picked the wrong one for your needs.

That is a lie. All Evs have been tested by independent testers in real
word conditions and I dont think any made it over 200 miles.

You are so seriously out of date it‘s laughable. Clearly not done any
market research in years.

The EV I was contemplating buyingbhad an advertised range of 235 miles.
Real mileage 180.


There are other EVs available. Have a look at the Korean offering, the Kia
Soul, eNiro and the Hyundai Kona with the 65kWh batteries. These have
repeatedly been demonstrated to achieve their claimed range of 280 miles,
450 km.

They have also been repeatedly demonstrated not to


For example.

https://youtu.be/RaH8UX0sfkU

Tim



--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

ۥ Confucius

On 21/10/2020 12:23, Tim+ wrote:
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:20:27 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Seriously, I dont give a toss what anyone else drives but it seems that
many folk are scared of change and will invent reasons why EVs cant
possibly work. The fact is, they do. Whats more theyre so much nicer
to drive (as youll find if you can ever pluck up the courage to test
drive one) that youll find the €œissues€� that seem so insurmountable
from afar are in fact generally easy to overcome.

You totally and utterly missed the suggestion that private motoring is in
the throes of fundamental reappraisal despite all and every measure the
vested interests might have in pretending otherwise.

I didnt miss it, I ignored it.

I'm not imagining a world where 20,000,000 cars become batteried
overnight. I am imagining a world where *because* of batteried cars and
other developments, there will only be 1,000,000 cars.

That may well be true in the long run but in the meantime and relatively
short term, our government is pushing the shift to EVs.

Because just as the UK decides to dig up every pavement road and street
to fit EV charging points galore, I'm thinking the first "smart" use of a
car will be to get it to drive off and recharge itself at a local
charging centre - possibly the car park of a big supermarket, which are
my nearest EV charging points.

So you would reduce congestion by not only having folk driving cars, but
also having driverless cars filling the road?


It's not smart cars *or* electric cars. It will be both.

You seem to want a different argument. Feel free to carry on without me. I
was only trying t correct TNPs lies.




https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/b...al-world-range

but what is 'real world'

I get anywhere from 380 to 600 miles on a tank
Assuming I will get 600 when I am on target for 450 is bad news



Tim



--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

ۥ Confucius

In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 21/10/2020 12:23, Tim+ wrote:
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:20:27 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Seriously, I don't give a toss what anyone else drives but it seems
that many folk are scared of change and will invent reasons why EVs
can't possibly work. The fact is, they do. What's more they're so
much nicer to drive (as you'll find if you can ever pluck up the
courage to test drive one) that you'll find the "issues" that seem so
insurmountable from afar are in fact generally easy to overcome.

You totally and utterly missed the suggestion that private motoring is
in the throes of fundamental reappraisal despite all and every measure
the vested interests might have in pretending otherwise.

I didn't miss it, I ignored it.

I'm not imagining a world where 20,000,000 cars become batteried
overnight. I am imagining a world where *because* of batteried cars
and other developments, there will only be 1,000,000 cars.

That may well be true in the long run but in the meantime and
relatively short term, our government is pushing the shift to EVs.

Because just as the UK decides to dig up every pavement road and
street to fit EV charging points galore, I'm thinking the first
"smart" use of a car will be to get it to drive off and recharge
itself at a local charging centre - possibly the car park of a big
supermarket, which are my nearest EV charging points.

So you would reduce congestion by not only having folk driving cars,
but also having driverless cars filling the road?


It's not smart cars *or* electric cars. It will be both.

You seem to want a different argument. Feel free to carry on without
me. I was only trying t correct TNPs lies.




https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/b...al-world-range

but what is 'real world'

perhaps carrying a passenger or two and some luggage?


"Nature does n

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:41:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Indeed. Once people start touting *emotional* reasons (an oxymoron
really)
then I do wonder. Emotions are fair enough - I *like* driving my car,
and that counts - BUT I don't claim that as a rational response to car
buying.

I am sure a lot of people liked using horses to pull carriages in 1900
too. Made **** all difference to the development of the motor car.

Amusingly enough, not even 12 months ago I was reading a lot of people
telling me how *impossible* it would be for them not to be able to drive
to work.

Come Covid, and mysteriously, they're ****ing coping alright.

That's because their employer has changed their working conditions.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In message , Tim Streater
writes
On 21 Oct 2020 at 12:23:20 BST, Tim+ wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:
On 21 Oct 2020 at 11:20:27 BST, Tim+ wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:

Was it Tesla that had to eat their words after Top Gear proved their
rubbish range ?

The fact that people have suddenly become as evangelical about electric
vehicles as vegans is enough to ensure I don't waste a second of my life
considering them.


Thank you!! Id be the first to admit the charging infrastructure is far
from mature. The fewer people using it the better for me. ;-)

Seriously, I dont give a toss what anyone else drives but it seems that
many folk are scared of change and will invent reasons why EVs cant
possibly work. The fact is, they do. Whats more theyre so
much nicer to
drive (as youll find if you can ever pluck up the courage to test drive
one) that youll find the €œissues€� that seem so
insurmountable from afar
are in fact generally easy to overcome.

IMO, a pure EV car is not a good idea as the charging infrastructure is not
there.

I would agree that the charging infrastructure is immature and whilst that
could be a major handicap to many people, there are many many people who
can manage on home charging alone for the vast majority of their motoring.
Just because its not a good idea for you doesnt make them a bad
idea for
everybody.

It probably wouldn't be a bad solution for us, in fact. Plenty of room here
for one of those full-size home chargers.
We are considering... I can do the 3 phase charger bit but the fully
electric car price seems a rip off. The manufacturers seem to believe
that the £3k government support is for them rather than their buyers!


--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

I can do the 3 phase charger bit

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW (many can't even
reach that)

but the fully electric car price seems a rip off

There is that.

On 21/10/2020 15:05, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:

I can do the 3 phase charger bit

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW (many can't even
reach that)

I think that is wrong

Jaguar I pace is 270kW
Volkswagen E-golf 100KW
Even that Hyundai Kona is around 180kW

but the fully electric car price seems a rip off

There is that.


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 21/10/2020 09:59:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 08:11, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 22:28, Tim+ wrote:

You made a bad choice of EV then.Â* €œReal life€� range for mine is 240 to
270.Â* Id only need one stop at a rapid charger.Â*Â* Dont condemn EVs
just
because you picked the wrong one for your needs.

That is a lie.
All Evs have been tested by independent testers in real word conditions
and I dont think any made it over 200 miles.

You are so seriously out of date its laughable. Clearly not done any
market research in years.

no this was two months ago.

Can you cite this source from 2 months ago?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW

I think that is wrong

Jaguar I pace is 270kW
Volkswagen E-golf 100KW
Even that Hyundai Kona is around 180kW

Only on DC fast charger, not on AC ...

On 21/10/2020 15:19, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW

I think that is wrong

Jaguar I pace is 270kW
Volkswagen E-golf 100KW
Even that Hyundai Kona is around 180kW

Only on DC fast charger, not on AC ...


Oh my bad, thought we were talking about output power, not charge rates...

Too much snipping.


--
€œProgress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,€�

€“ Ludwig von Mises

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 11:20, Tim+ wrote:

There are other EVs available. Have a look at the Korean offering, the Kia
Soul, eNiro and the Hyundai Kona with the 65kWh batteries. These have
repeatedly been demonstrated to achieve their claimed range of 280 miles,
450 km.

They have also been repeatedly demonstrated not to


For example.

https://youtu.be/RaH8UX0sfkU

Tim



Balls in your court now. Show me a test of a Kia/Hyundai 65kWh EV not
achieving at least 200 miles or less than 80% of its claimed range. Youve
accused me of telling lies. You said there were no EVs capable of 200
miles. Patently completely wrong.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2020 14:28, tim... wrote:
but do the vast majority of cars only do short journeys?

Well its a moot point. A huge number of 'her' cars do in fact do just the
supermarket run and the school pickup and could easily be BEV...whilst
'his' car does a bit of commuting and the weekend trips which would be
longer.

the problem with that solution is that the "run-around" will be a second
hand small car picked up for a few grand

find me an electric car that you can pick up for a few grand

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Tim+" wrote in message


I don't know about this particular car, but I think that fuel-cell
powered cars have a future.

At the moment they are prohibitively expensive because they're only
made
in penny numbers. Demand is low because of the high price and because
of
the lack of re-fueling infrastructure. If that vicious circle can be
broken, they'll really take off because they have a much higher range
than BEVs

That *sounds* like it out to be a huge selling point, but in practice,
the
vast majority of journeys are short ones.

but do the vast majority of cars only do short journeys?

No, but how much contingency to you really need?

For me the tipping point was waiting for an €œaffordable€� EV with a range
greater than my Alfasud. (250 miles). Im happy to live with taking a
45-60 break every 250 miles or so if on on a long journey.


Having to have two cars to solve that problem isn't going to be a great
use
of resources

You just need to to plan your recharge stops for long journeys or if you
want to really crack on, theirs always car hire.

Weve all got very used to the ability to re-fuel quickly thanks to the
energy density on petrol/diesel but once youve got over the initial panic
and learned to plan, its a lot less of an issue than you might imagine.

Additionally, I can refuel my car in my sleep! Can you? ;-).

AIH, no

Imagine never
having to visit a petrol station again.

Lastly, with fuel costing just 5p a mile based on home charging

you think HMG isn't going to find some way to tax electric mileage after
they have lost the income from fuel duty

In message , tim...
writes


"Tim+" wrote in message

t...
tim... wrote:


"Tim+" wrote in message


I don't know about this particular car, but I think that fuel-cell
powered cars have a future.

At the moment they are prohibitively expensive because they're
only made
in penny numbers. Demand is low because of the high price and
because of
the lack of re-fueling infrastructure. If that vicious circle can be
broken, they'll really take off because they have a much higher range
than BEVs

That *sounds* like it out to be a huge selling point, but in
practice, the
vast majority of journeys are short ones.

but do the vast majority of cars only do short journeys?

No, but how much contingency to you really need?

For me the tipping point was waiting for an €œaffordable€� EV with a range
greater than my Alfasud. (250 miles). Im happy to live with taking a
45-60 break every 250 miles or so if on on a long journey.


Having to have two cars to solve that problem isn't going to be a
great use
of resources

You just need to to plan your recharge stops for long journeys or if you
want to really crack on, theirs always car hire.

Weve all got very used to the ability to re-fuel quickly thanks to the
energy density on petrol/diesel but once youve got over the initial panic
and learned to plan, its a lot less of an issue than you might imagine.

Additionally, I can refuel my car in my sleep! Can you? ;-).

AIH, no

Imagine never
having to visit a petrol station again.

Lastly, with fuel costing just 5p a mile based on home charging

you think HMG isn't going to find some way to tax electric mileage
after they have lost the income from fuel duty

Inevitably but they have not adjusted road fund licences. Which they
might easily have done.
Our 1600 euro 5 diesel Fiesta is still only £20.00!



--
Tim Lamb

On 21/10/2020 17:52, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 11:20, Tim+ wrote:

There are other EVs available. Have a look at the Korean offering, the Kia
Soul, eNiro and the Hyundai Kona with the 65kWh batteries. These have
repeatedly been demonstrated to achieve their claimed range of 280 miles,
450 km.

They have also been repeatedly demonstrated not to


For example.

https://youtu.be/RaH8UX0sfkU

Tim



Balls in your court now. Show me a test of a Kia/Hyundai 65kWh EV not
achieving at least 200 miles or less than 80% of its claimed range. Youve
accused me of telling lies. You said there were no EVs capable of 200
miles. Patently completely wrong.

Tim

I didnt say that. Liar

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 21/10/2020 18:03, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2020 14:28, tim... wrote:
but do the vast majority of cars only do short journeys?

Well its a moot point. A huge number of 'her' cars do in fact do just
the supermarket run and the school pickup and could easily be
BEV...whilst 'his' car does a bit of commuting and the weekend trips
which would be longer.

the problem with that solution is that the "run-around" will be a second
hand small car picked up for a few grand

find me an electric car that you can pick up for a few grand



https://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/elec...-monster-truck

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:23:20 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

So you would reduce congestion by not only having folk driving cars, but
also having driverless cars filling the road?

You "ignored" the reduction from 20 million to 1 million cars.


True, but Im really not concerned with such long term speculation. Things
will change for sure. By how much and how quickly we dont know.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim Streater wrote:
On 21 Oct 2020 at 12:23:20 BST, Tim+ wrote:

I would agree that the charging infrastructure is immature and whilst that
could be a major handicap to many people, there are many many people who
can manage on home charging alone for the vast majority of their motoring.
Just because its not a good idea for you doesnt make them a bad idea for
everybody.

It probably wouldn't be a bad solution for us, in fact. Plenty of room here
for one of those full-size home chargers.


Full size charger? What would that be? Home charging is often done with a
2.2kW 10 amp charger from a three pin plug but more commonly now, a 7kW
charger.

You *can* go to the expense and trouble of a 22kW 3 phase charger if you
have a 3 phase supply already but given that we all have to sleep
sometimes, 7kW is perfectly adequate.

Tim

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tim... wrote:




Lastly, with fuel costing just 5p a mile based on home charging

you think HMG isn't going to find some way to tax electric mileage after
they have lost the income from fuel duty


Do you think that the government isnt going to tax the **** out of petrol
and diesel over the next 10 years? The one thing you can be certain of is
that petrol and diesel use will be penalised more heavily.

Of course they will find new ways of taxing vehicle use, probably on the NZ
model based on mileage driven as this wont hit those using power for
heating/lighting etc.

Meanwhile, until they do, Im happy to take advantage of it.

Tim


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The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 17:52, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Balls in your court now. Show me a test of a Kia/Hyundai 65kWh EV not
achieving at least 200 miles or less than 80% of its claimed range. Youve
accused me of telling lies. You said there were no EVs capable of 200
miles. Patently completely wrong.

Tim

I didnt say that. Liar


The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That is a lie.
All Evs have been tested by independent testers in real word conditions
and I dont think any made it over 200 miles.


Sad when you cant even remember the lies that you tell...

Tim
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Roger Mills Wrote in message:
On 20/10/2020 18:29, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/10/2020 16:29, Roger Mills wrote:
Although a lot of my journeys are short, I do enough long journeys to a
BEV unviable with the range currently available. Hopefully battery
development will yield higher capacity batteries without increasing the
size and weight. Even so, a full charge will then take longer.

fast charging is something batteries can already do - a one hour flat to
full is well within lithium capabilities, but I haven't seen much in the
way of better energy to weight in the last ten years. Cost is about half
what it was ten years ago.

The limits on fast charging is really the local last mile grid. Few
houses have 100A fuses and that is the limit for a normal domestic
installation. 25kW will still take 4 hours to cram the electrons into a
100kWh battery...leaving nothing left over for the mandatory house
heat-pump.



But you don?t need fast charging at home. A 7kW charger is quite adequate
for overnight charging.

Tim


That depends on battery size. If higher capacity batteries are developed
which produce an acceptable range, 7kW my well not be enough.

I'm currently leading a study into the possibility of installing charge
points in the remote garages belonging to the building of which my
holiday flat is a part. The cost would be considerable due to the need
to run cables about 50 metres underground. It's a nightmare trying to
anticipate future requirements in order to make it as 'future proof' as
possible.

"Leading a study"?

Is that you're asking for quotes?
Or do you have people to talk to their people?
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On 21/10/2020 19:29, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 17:52, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Balls in your court now. Show me a test of a Kia/Hyundai 65kWh EV not
achieving at least 200 miles or less than 80% of its claimed range. Youve
accused me of telling lies. You said there were no EVs capable of 200
miles. Patently completely wrong.

Tim

I didnt say that. Liar


The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That is a lie.
All Evs have been tested by independent testers in real word conditions
and I dont think any made it over 200 miles.


Sad when you cant even remember the lies that you tell...

Tim

You have repeated the lie.

I never said where were no evs capable of over 200 miles, I said that in
tests I didn't *think* any had achieved that. As it happened I was
wrong, but not lying.

Whereas when you *claimed* as *fact* there were 'plenty that did between
240 and 280 miles; you were as there are none that *reliably* do.




--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:

I can do the 3 phase charger bit

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW (many can't even
reach that)

For €œmany€� read €œextremely few€�. 7kW AC charging is the minimum on all new
and recent EVs. Its also the maximum for most as they mostly use DC
charging for higher rates.



but the fully electric car price seems a rip off

There is that.


Bit like the case with diesel cars then? Always used to cost more but the
lower running costs made them worthwhile. Its a lot of new tech and its
selling in smaller numbers. Prices inevitably are higher at the moment.
They will come down.

Tim

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Tim+ wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW (many can't even
reach that)

For €œmany€� read €œextremely few€�.

Is the green table at the bottom of this page wrong, then?

https://evtun.com/chargers/accelev-2-phase-charger-6kw-8kw.html

On 22/10/2020 10:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW (many can't even
reach that)

For €œmany€� read €œextremely few€�.

Is the green table at the bottom of this page wrong, then?

https://evtun.com/chargers/accelev-2-phase-charger-6kw-8kw.html

No, but it isn't relevant, either.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Is the green table at the bottom of this page wrong, then?
https://evtun.com/chargers/accelev-2-phase-charger-6kw-8kw.html

No, but it isn't relevant, either.

It would be in terms of TimL thinking he could fast-charge, simply
because he has 3ph, when not many cars could take it.

On 22/10/2020 11:11, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Is the green table at the bottom of this page wrong, then?
https://evtun.com/chargers/accelev-2-phase-charger-6kw-8kw.html

No, but it isn't relevant, either.

It would be in terms of TimL thinking he could fast-charge, simply
because he has 3ph, when not many cars could take it.

I think that page only applies to their *built in* chargers or the POS
that is being advertised there.

I do not know how a fast charger interfaces to a typical car, but I do
know that I can charge my aircraft batteries in an hour, or less if I
don't mind possibly damaging them.

It is all about how you regulate the Vs and Is into them . And, given
that the only decent electric car there - the Jaguar I pace - has a
90kWh battery, 7kW is not going to cut the mustard at a public charging
point is it?

Of all the issue with leccy cars, the inability of the domestic mains to
**** out more than 7kW at a time is neither here not there. That one CAN
be solved with better engineering,


--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I think that page only applies to their *built in* chargers

yes, but unless you're paying to use a DC fast charger, that's what
you're likely to be using.

or the POS that is being advertised there.

yes ignore the POS, I just happened to be looking if there were 2ph
"chargers" available (people think of the thing they have on the wall at
home as a charger, it's not, it's just an EVSE which is a glorified
relay to turn on/off the AC to the car safely, and tell the car how much
current it's allowed, the actual charger is in the car).

I do not know how a fast charger interfaces to a typical car

DC straight to the battery (200A @ 750V max) the smarts is in the fast
charger, rather than in the car in this case.

but I do
know that I can charge my aircraft batteries in an hour, or less if I
don't mind possibly damaging them.

It is all about how you regulate the Vs and Is into them . And, given
that the only decent electric car there - the Jaguar I pace - has a
90kWh battery, 7kW is not going to cut the mustard at a public charging
point is it?

Most of the charging points you see in car parks, and on-street are
simply AC, not DC fast charge, those ones on motorway services with a
cable as thick as a petrol pump hose.

Of all the issue with leccy cars, the inability of the domestic mains to
**** out more than 7kW at a time is neither here not there. That one CAN
be solved with better engineering,

I don't think it's a huge problem if you do have off-street parking 7kW
x 12 hours or whatever should re-charge most cars.

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Outside of Teslas, not very many EVs can exceed 7kW (many can't even
reach that)

For €œmany€� read €œextremely few€�.

Is the green table at the bottom of this page wrong, then?

https://evtun.com/chargers/accelev-2-phase-charger-6kw-8kw.html


Okay, maybe more than I thought but I think its out of date and includes a
lot of hybrids as opposed to full BEVs. No need for a 7kW charger on a
hybrid. Many of the other BEV cars are rare in Europe.

Pretty much all new BEVs will charge at 6.6-7kW. (I suspect they all have
the same components, its just down to 220/240V differences).

Tim

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Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Is the green table at the bottom of this page wrong, then?
https://evtun.com/chargers/accelev-2-phase-charger-6kw-8kw.html

No, but it isn't relevant, either.

It would be in terms of TimL thinking he could fast-charge, simply
because he has 3ph, when not many cars could take it.


Indeed. A few companies only fit fast AC chargers to their cars (The
Renault Zoe for example) but the majority wont charge faster than 7kWh.

Tim

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Please don't feed the trolls