https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/

--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


Paywalled...

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Paywalled...

Turn off javascript

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 7:51:47 AM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Paywalled...

Turn off javascript
Thanks, turned off javascript and it works with the Herald too.

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Paywalled...

Turn off javascript


That did the trick. Thanks.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this car
is gonna exactly fly along.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this car
is gonna exactly fly along.

Tim


You're confusing issues of "peak" versus "average"
consumption.

When you breeze along the motorway at 100km/hour,
it might take 20HP (~14kW) to handle wind resistance.
You can then forecast how long the battery would last
on your BEV, knowing that the wind resistance is
what is eating at your battery.

I agree that fuel cells have ****-poor output characteristics.
They're not "strong-like-bull" as electrical devices go.

But, you have the ability to fit Lithium batteries
as a buffer to the fuel cell system, or if feeling
particularly rich, you could fit UltraCaps to the car.
The UltraCaps can provide bursts of 3000 amps if
needed. This means you'll be able to burn donuts
in the parking lot, do brake stands while waiting
in traffic and so on. Your tires will be worn
out and shot in no time.

But, with your electrical buffer, you can only refill the buffer
at the 8kW rate. That means your "average" rate of
consumption is capped. Burn one donut, wait two
hours for your recharge. Then burn another donut. Boring.

Another way to think of this, is pretend they made
a solar-powered car. Weak as **** solar array on the
car roof. Recharge time ? A week maybe, or a month.
Obviously, solar panels on the roof of the car cannot
put out 8kW. Solar would be weaker still. But the buffering
principle remains - if you could sit off the road for
a week, you might be able to drive for a minute or two.

The hydrogen, you could still pull over to the
side of the road, while the fuel cell continues to
charge the Lithium system. When you come out of
Harrods, your car has charged itself, and without
using any of that grid power you don't have a lot of.

The fuel cell car then, will need a very low drag
coefficient. You won't be driving an F150 with a
load of brick in the back. You won't be pulling
a motor home with it.

The Lithium batteries are still key to this, because
they're needed for dynamic braking and harvesting
the kinetic energy in the car while attempting to
stop. That means less of that precious H2 will be
needed to pull away when the light changes.

Ballard Systems in Vancouver, designed a transit bus
that runs on fuel cells. When the driver stomps the
"gas", a cloud of steam comes out of the back of the
bus. It can be done. I wish I could find the video
of the first time one of these buses pulled away...
The available vids now are crap.

https://www.ballard.com/markets/transit-bus

That's not the problem with the hydrogen economy. It's
making the hydrogen that's a problem. Not enough
electrolysis to make it sustainable... The sleazy
ways to make hydrogen, are still losers.

Paul

Paul wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this car
is gonna exactly fly along.

Tim


You're confusing issues of "peak" versus "average"
consumption.

When you breeze along the motorway at 100km/hour,
it might take 20HP (~14kW) to handle wind resistance.
You can then forecast how long the battery would last
on your BEV, knowing that the wind resistance is
what is eating at your battery.

I agree that fuel cells have ****-poor output characteristics.
They're not "strong-like-bull" as electrical devices go.

But, you have the ability to fit Lithium batteries
as a buffer to the fuel cell system, or if feeling
particularly rich, you could fit UltraCaps to the car.

Oh I agree that with batteries and/or supercaps (and it does have the
latter) one could extract a lot more short term power.

Its still a bicycle-wheeled two seater with no luggage space with a top
whack of 60mph relying on a fuel thats near as dammit unobtainium. I
cant ever see demand being huge.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 20/10/2020 11:08, Tim+ wrote:
Paul wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this car
is gonna exactly fly along.

Tim


You're confusing issues of "peak" versus "average"
consumption.

When you breeze along the motorway at 100km/hour,
it might take 20HP (~14kW) to handle wind resistance.
You can then forecast how long the battery would last
on your BEV, knowing that the wind resistance is
what is eating at your battery.

I agree that fuel cells have ****-poor output characteristics.
They're not "strong-like-bull" as electrical devices go.

But, you have the ability to fit Lithium batteries
as a buffer to the fuel cell system, or if feeling
particularly rich, you could fit UltraCaps to the car.

Oh I agree that with batteries and/or supercaps (and it does have the
latter) one could extract a lot more short term power.

Its still a bicycle-wheeled two seater with no luggage space with a top
whack of 60mph relying on a fuel thats near as dammit unobtainium. I
cant ever see demand being huge.

Tim


I don't know about this particular car, but I think that fuel-cell
powered cars have a future.

At the moment they are prohibitively expensive because they're only made
in penny numbers. Demand is low because of the high price and because of
the lack of re-fueling infrastructure. If that vicious circle can be
broken, they'll really take off because they have a much higher range
than BEVs and are much quicker to re-fuel. We could even see refilling
stations producing their own hydrogen from renewable energy - both
helping to save the planet and eliminating distribution costs. The fact
that the electrical energy which you get from the fuel cell is only
about 50% of the energy used to produce the hydrogen may then not matter.
--
Cheers,
Roger

Roger Mills wrote:
On 20/10/2020 11:08, Tim+ wrote:
Paul wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this car
is gonna exactly fly along.

Tim


You're confusing issues of "peak" versus "average"
consumption.

When you breeze along the motorway at 100km/hour,
it might take 20HP (~14kW) to handle wind resistance.
You can then forecast how long the battery would last
on your BEV, knowing that the wind resistance is
what is eating at your battery.

I agree that fuel cells have ****-poor output characteristics.
They're not "strong-like-bull" as electrical devices go.

But, you have the ability to fit Lithium batteries
as a buffer to the fuel cell system, or if feeling
particularly rich, you could fit UltraCaps to the car.

Oh I agree that with batteries and/or supercaps (and it does have the
latter) one could extract a lot more short term power.

Its still a bicycle-wheeled two seater with no luggage space with a top
whack of 60mph relying on a fuel thats near as dammit unobtainium. I
cant ever see demand being huge.

Tim


I don't know about this particular car, but I think that fuel-cell
powered cars have a future.

At the moment they are prohibitively expensive because they're only made
in penny numbers. Demand is low because of the high price and because of
the lack of re-fueling infrastructure. If that vicious circle can be
broken, they'll really take off because they have a much higher range
than BEVs

That *sounds* like it out to be a huge selling point, but in practice, the
vast majority of journeys are short ones.

and are much quicker to re-fuel.

Assuming you dont have to drive miles to find a refuelling point. I have
one at my home and very handy it is too. ;-)

We could even see refilling
stations producing their own hydrogen from renewable energy - both
helping to save the planet and eliminating distribution costs. The fact
that the electrical energy which you get from the fuel cell is only
about 50% of the energy used to produce the hydrogen may then not matter.

Or better still, dont waste that 50% and just stick the electricity
straight into a BEV.

Of course BEVs cant do everything a liquid/gas fuelled car can but theyre
here NOW, they work and provide an excellent mode of transport for many
people.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 20/10/2020 12:11, Roger Mills wrote:
We could even see refilling stations producing their own hydrogen from
renewable energy

ROFLMAO!
There's a levitating Gloucester Old Spot and a Wessex Saddleback! Pass
me the Purdey!


--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Paul wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this
car
is gonna exactly fly along.

Tim


You're confusing issues of "peak" versus "average"
consumption.

When you breeze along the motorway at 100km/hour,
it might take 20HP (~14kW) to handle wind resistance.
You can then forecast how long the battery would last
on your BEV, knowing that the wind resistance is
what is eating at your battery.

I agree that fuel cells have ****-poor output characteristics.
They're not "strong-like-bull" as electrical devices go.

But, you have the ability to fit Lithium batteries
as a buffer to the fuel cell system, or if feeling
particularly rich, you could fit UltraCaps to the car.

Oh I agree that with batteries and/or supercaps (and it does have the
latter) one could extract a lot more short term power.

Its still a bicycle-wheeled two seater with no luggage space

Oh I missed that bit

Where's the market for such a car?

a city runaround has to be capable of taking the kids to school

otherwise it's useless

On 20/10/2020 07:51, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa/

Hmm, 8kW from the fuel cell. My EV has a 150kW motor. Dont think this car
is gonna exactly fly along.

8 Kw is around 10 bhp

Enough for 50 mph perhaps.

Most small cars cruise at around that figure.

I would add a battery as well for peak power demands.

But it underlines my point that all this maybe and could be crap falls
to pieces when real numbers are inserted.

"When the flag drops, the bull**** stops"
"Money talks, bull**** walks"

Tim



--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

8 Kw is around 10 bhp
Enough for 50 mph perhaps.
Most small cars cruise at around that figure.
I would add a battery as well for peak power demands.

I think both the hydrogen power cars available in the UK do use the fuel
cell to charge battery as well as run the motors direct.

The Hyundai dealer in Leicester is offering test drives of the Nexo,
despite the nearest hydrogen filling point being an 80 mile round trip
to Derby, that's 20% of a tank gone before you start.

Plus wanky phrases like each hour of driving purifies enough air for 42
people to breath.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...funding-round/


can't see a model that bundles insurance is going to be viable

it will mean that the people used to paying 200pa for insurance will
subsides those who pay 2000pa