In article ,
Mike P wrote:
But Nigel Tomlinson nor yourself referred to the quote in the original
message of this sub thread or for that matter the subject of the whole
post.

Not all newsreaders support threading, and not all like using it.

Don't worry about it, life is too short.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

wrote in message
...
Phil wrote:
"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...


big snip


I gather that you have mentioned the new legislation which comes into
force
on 11 December 2003 although I am puzzled how this will bolster your
case
given that it is not retrospective. Even once the new legislation is
in
force, we will continue to send email marketing to our customers
without
their explicit prior consent ('opt-in'). The new regime allows us to
send
marketing emails which relate to the same or similar products to those
purchased (i.e. in the case of Screfix Direct, our entire range) so
long
as
we offer a no-cost opportunity to 'opt-out' from receiving future
e-mailings. In any event the new legislation relates only to personal
(not
business) email addresses, and your business' email address would
therefore not be afforded the new protection.


Screwfix have an interesting interpretation of the legislation here. It
is
true that the legislation is mainly aimed at private email and that
companies won't be allowed to email individuals unless they have opted
in.
Business email addresses can be contacted as long as the email is
related to
the business that has already taken place between the two parties and a
specific opt-in is not required, but only if those businesses were given
an
opt-out option when their details were first collected and chose not to
opt
out.

More to the point how do you differentiate 'business' and 'individual'
E-Mail addresses? It suggests a total misunderstanding of E-Mail and
the internet if TPTB think there is an actual difference.

Well, I have a work email address and a private email address. When I leave
this company, I lose my work email address but keep the private email
address. Quite a clear differentiation between them in that respect -
though I agree, from Screwfix's point of view, all email addresses are
possibly business as they are customers and have a business relationship.
Also, knowing automatically which email address is private and which is
business isn't generally possible (can't assume .co.uk is just business). I
suspect there will be a new box to tick on signup forms "Is this a business
email address?".

D

David Hearn wrote:
the business that has already taken place between the two parties and a
specific opt-in is not required, but only if those businesses were given
an
opt-out option when their details were first collected and chose not to
opt
out.

More to the point how do you differentiate 'business' and 'individual'
E-Mail addresses? It suggests a total misunderstanding of E-Mail and
the internet if TPTB think there is an actual difference.

Well, I have a work email address and a private email address. When I leave
this company, I lose my work email address but keep the private email
address. Quite a clear differentiation between them in that respect -

Er, yes, but no possible way to differentiate by looking at the
address. How are senders of unsolicited mail supposed to find out
whether an address is a 'business' address or an 'individual' address?
Not to mention that I'm not convinced that a your work E-mail address
is necessarily a business E-Mail address, if it's something like
' then it's still an individual being
addressed, apparently. Similarly I might perfectly well decide that
my personal/individual address is going to be , is
that an individual address or a business addres?


though I agree, from Screwfix's point of view, all email addresses are
possibly business as they are customers and have a business relationship.
Also, knowing automatically which email address is private and which is
business isn't generally possible (can't assume .co.uk is just business). I
suspect there will be a new box to tick on signup forms "Is this a business
email address?".


--
Chris Green )

If they don't know what the subject matter for the post & thread is about
then don't pass comments.

Life sucks eh!

Mike P.

Huge wrote:

Rubbish. Spam is spam.

True - but there in resides the difficulty - as this thread illustrates,
many of us have slight variations in *our* definitions of spam...

Clasification of the obvious stuff (pils, enlargement/reduction of body
parts, phishing, hot young teens, 419 etc) is easy and most people agree.

Personally I don't class email from the likes of Screwfix or other
companies that I have an ongoing commercial relationship with as spam.
Obviously some people do.

(If I ask them to stop sending email - and they fail to do so after a
reasonable period - then I may class it as spam).

I suspect that if we could deal with the stuff that is universally
thought of as spam - the slightly grey area commercial email left would
be far less of an issue.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , Huge wrote:
The problem is not with bona fide companies
whose emails display genuine contact details.

Rubbish. Spam is spam.

No, the difference is that if Screwfix (or other reputable
company) send me an email they send *me* *one*, and then
probably once a month at most. The spameisters blast them out
to valid and invalid addresses alike: generally three or four
identical ones end up on my machine and they are only the ones
I actually see. I did have my mail configured to bounce all
invalid @sda.co.uk mails (mainly to put customers who had
entered a typo like on notice that they had
done something wrong) but my ISP asked me to change this as the
bounces were overloading their mail server - probably because
having a three letter domain (all three letter combinations are
valid AIUI) people go for dictionary attacks. Now of course
because they are blackholed rather than bounced the senders
will assume they are valid addresses. I have no idea how much
traffic is generated this way but this is the problem, not the
likes of Screwfix.

And perhaps I am "a drooling retard" but my own guess is that
anti-spam laws are likely to be as effective against the people
who mass mail this stuff as speed cameras are against really
dangerous drivers and Part P will be against the real cowboy
electricians.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
Mike P wrote:
If they don't know what the subject matter for the post & thread is about
then don't pass comments.

You carry on being the odd one out. Do you drive on the right hand side of
the road too?

--
*Remember, no-one is listening until you fart.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

This really gets up your nose doesn't it.

Mike P.

Mike P wrote:

This really gets up your nose doesn't it.

Not just his nose.

*plonk*

--
Grunff

"Mike P" wrote in message
...
If they don't know what the subject matter for the post & thread is about
then don't pass comments.

Life sucks eh!


What are you talking about, certainly not the subject line, and are you
replying to Dave Plowman or another person who's post has not shown up on my
server ?...

Don't show your utter ignorance, take a bit of advice from people who know
how Usenet works.

"Mike P" wrote in message
...
This really gets up your nose doesn't it.


You really are a man who like abusing himself in public !

Get a life.

What is up with you people, just ignore me and that will be the end of it!

I'm not the first to use this method of answering a thread and I won't be
the last.

If there are people out there that haven't got the technology or
intelligence or knowledge or equipment to understand my original or
subsequent reply then yet again I say "LIFE SUCKS" (did you hear me
shouting).

And I see no mention of the subject line in your.

Just WHO do you people think you are?, dictating how I should wish to
participate, have I abused anyone, have I swore at anyone, have I give bad
advice, NO

If you just kept to the subject at hand like I did in my original reply in
this sub thread ("Well said Dave, I'll second that.") we wouldn't be this
far down the ladder.


I hope Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) to whom I openly admit that I disagree
with his stand looks at this and realises that self appointed HITLER'S are
steering away from the core subject of his post.

Mike P.

Mike P wrote:
What is up with you people, just ignore me and that will be the end
of it!

If there are people out there that haven't got the technology or
intelligence or knowledge or equipment to understand my original or
subsequent reply then yet again I say "LIFE SUCKS" (did you hear me
shouting).

Did you have a traumatic childhood?

Just WHO do you people think you are?, dictating how I should wish to
participate, have I abused anyone, have I swore at anyone, have I
give bad advice, NO

Do you listen to advice? Might help.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

Huge wrote:

*plonk*

Hey, he's doing really well - that's two kills in a single thread!

--
Grunff

wrote in message
...
David Hearn wrote:
the business that has already taken place between the two parties
and a
specific opt-in is not required, but only if those businesses were
given
an
opt-out option when their details were first collected and chose not
to
opt
out.

More to the point how do you differentiate 'business' and 'individual'
E-Mail addresses? It suggests a total misunderstanding of E-Mail and
the internet if TPTB think there is an actual difference.

Well, I have a work email address and a private email address. When I
leave
this company, I lose my work email address but keep the private email
address. Quite a clear differentiation between them in that respect -

Er, yes, but no possible way to differentiate by looking at the
address. How are senders of unsolicited mail supposed to find out
whether an address is a 'business' address or an 'individual' address?
Not to mention that I'm not convinced that a your work E-mail address
is necessarily a business E-Mail address, if it's something like
' then it's still an individual being
addressed, apparently. Similarly I might perfectly well decide that
my personal/individual address is going to be , is
that an individual address or a business addres?


That is the whole problem and shows how difficult it is to comply with this
legislation and how open to abuse it is. I would be inclined to say
is private, most
likely business, but could be anything. I think the draft
legislation had something to the effect of business addresses can be
emailed, but not if that email address was personally identifiable but I
think that has been dropped in the final legislation. That would basically
mean the only usable email addresses would be the sales@... and info@...
type addresses which are no use at all to market to.

In most instances, if the company has a postal address for the customer
which mentions a company name, they can be considered legitmate business
customers no matter what the email address - a great number of my company's
customers use aol, freeserve, hotmail etc as their business emails eg
. If the company peronsalises the emails
they send and includes that company name in the email (something like, Hi
Fred, As one of our valued customers we thought Bloggs Industries would love
to hear about...) then they would appear to be trying to ensure that they
only reach legitimate business customers.

Phil

Lemmings come to mind.

Mike P.

Hey aren't you the same Toby that referred to the originator of this post as
"I quote"

Andy '****wit' Luckman (AJL Electronics)

So that's acceptable????

Mike P.

Mike P wrote:
Hey aren't you the same Toby that referred to the originator of this
post as "I quote"

Andy '****wit' Luckman (AJL Electronics)

So that's acceptable????

Quoting - good boy.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

Well said Mike. Perhaps one day they'll realise that the thread title, OE
and top posting a reply only, is 98% of today's world for efficient answers
to a diy question!! If you really want to see the effects of moronic newsnet
bottom posting just try looking a long thread up on Google. Generally 1% of
the text downloaded is relevant to the original question!
Regards
Capitol

Mike P wrote in message ...
Lemmings come to mind.

Mike P.

He wishes!!
Capitol

Grunff wrote in message ...
Huge wrote:

*plonk*

Hey, he's doing really well - that's two kills in a single thread!

--
Grunff

Capitol wrote:

He wishes!!

???

Another clueless twit? Come out of hibernation early have we?

--
Grunff

I see your still time & space wasting then.
Mike P.

In article , Mike P
writes
This really gets up your nose doesn't it.

You really ought to learn how to post to usenet properly, or you'll end
up in everyone's killfile.

BTW, *plonk*

In article , Huge
writes

Well, he seems resolute not to Accept Clue.

The mark of a true ****wit.

http://www.****wits.info/

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:49:27 +0000, Richard wrote:

I too have bought from screwfix, I too have always opted out of all
e-mail offers. I do not need to know about all their special offers,
or indeed any of their special offers. I like to buy things to my
timescales, not to theirs. I too have started to get spam from screw
fix. I too have re -opted out and am still getting the e-mails. To me
this is spam.

It might also illegal. About the one thing that the Data Protection Act does
actually forbid is the use of personal data for Direct Marketing when you
have informed the company concerned not to use the data for that purpose.

11. - (1) An individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a
data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period
as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin,
processing for the purposes of direct marketing personal data in respect
of which he is the data subject.

(3) In this section "direct marketing" means the communication
(by whatever means) of any advertising or marketing material which is
directed to particular individuals.

The crucial question is what "such period as is reasonable in the
circumstances" might mean. And you can't pick and choose about the type
of direct marketing it would seem. If you're happy to receive catalogues
from them then you're accepting that they can use the data for direct
marketing.

Chris Ward.

In article ,
Mike P wrote:
I hope Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) to whom I openly admit that I
disagree with his stand looks at this and realises that self appointed
HITLER'S are steering away from the core subject of his post.

You are new to newsgroups, aren't you?

--
*If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Dave Plowman wrote:

I hope Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) to whom I openly admit that I
disagree with his stand looks at this and realises that self appointed
HITLER'S are steering away from the core subject of his post.


You are new to newsgroups, aren't you?


If you didn't know better you'd think he was a webtv user...

Mike P - look up Godwin's Law.

While you're at it look up apostrophes and how they're meant to
be used.

--
Grunff

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:06:16 +0000 (UTC), "Mike P"
wrote:


Just WHO do you people think you are?, dictating how I should wish to
participate, have I abused anyone, have I swore at anyone, have I give bad
advice, NO

Excuse me, is this rattle yours?

Feckin' thing nearly brained me.
--

Dave

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:35:36 -0000, "Suz"
wrote:

Don't suppose Mr MacNamara put his email address on his letter did he?

You would be correct in that assumption.

Bet you a tenner it is . That's the way a lot of
major companies set up their addresses

This MacNamara - you don't think he's the leader of the band, do you?
--

Dave

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:02:28 -0000, Capitol wrote:

Well said Mike. Perhaps one day they'll realise that the thread title, OE
and top posting a reply only, is 98% of today's world for efficient answers
to a diy question!!

You have come out with this 98% statistic before, and it has been pointed
out that it is wrong. Of the current (the last month) posts to uk.d-i-y:
OE is used by 41% of posters (44% of posts)
Of the OE followup posts, 8% are posted with no context, 6% are topposted
compared with 4% and 2% for posters using other software.

Phil wrote:

In most instances, if the company has a postal address for the customer
which mentions a company name, they can be considered legitmate business
customers no matter what the email address - a great number of my company's
customers use aol, freeserve, hotmail etc as their business emails eg
. If the company peronsalises the emails
they send and includes that company name in the email (something like, Hi
Fred, As one of our valued customers we thought Bloggs Industries would love
to hear about...) then they would appear to be trying to ensure that they
only reach legitimate business customers.

So what about xxx.demon.co.uk domains? Demon is most certainly a
business but their customers may or may not be businesses.

This 'business'/'individual' distinction is simply a non-starter.

--
Chris Green )

"Chris Ward" wrote
| It might also illegal. About the one thing that the Data Protection Act
| does actually forbid is the use of personal data for Direct Marketing
| when you have informed the company concerned not to use the data for
| that purpose.
....
| The crucial question is what "such period as is reasonable in the
| circumstances" might mean. And you can't pick and choose about the
| type of direct marketing it would seem. If you're happy to receive
| catalogues from them then you're accepting that they can use the
| data for direct marketing.

But the personal data required for postal marketing is different from that
required for email marketing, so you could consent to your postal address
being used for marketing, but not consent to your email addr or telephone
being used for this purpose.

Owain

In article ,
John Armstrong wrote:
Of the OE followup posts, 8% are posted with no context,

Make that content.

--
*Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:42:57 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:

You also were referring to legislation which has not come into effect yet

Oh yes it has! - sorry, having a seasonal moment. ;O)


Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message ...

I am committed to the Boulder Pledge, which states that I will not buy
anything from a spammer. Sad really, because they have a good
range.

The Boulder Pledge doesn't say "I won't buy anything from a spammer",
but rather "I won't buy anything advertised in spam". Of course,
you're perfectly at liberty to create and implement your own stricter
pledge (the Gloucester Pledge, perhaps?), but it won't be the Boulder
Pledge.

Simon Blake

In article , Simon Blake
wrote:


The Boulder Pledge doesn't say "I won't buy anything from a spammer",
but rather "I won't buy anything advertised in spam". Of course,
you're perfectly at liberty to create and implement your own stricter
pledge (the Gloucester Pledge, perhaps?), but it won't be the Boulder
Pledge.

Fair comment Simon. *I* prefer not to do business with spammers at all.
I've stopped using Onetel too as they keep getting Indian telemarketers to
harass me by phone!

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:21:50 +0000, Owain wrote:

If you're happy to receive
catalogues from them then you're accepting that they can use the data
for direct marketing.

But the personal data required for postal marketing is different from
that required for email marketing, so you could consent to your postal
address being used for marketing, but not consent to your email addr or
telephone being used for this purpose.

You might be right, but I can't find anything in the Data Protection Act
that separates data into separate categories as you suggest, except for
"sensitive" data; for example information about the health of a data
subject.

Chris Ward.

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message ...
For those DIYers who buy from Screwfix:

You might like to be aware of their spam policy, which I have found out to
my cost. I am intending to issue legal action for recovery of my invoice
amount.


After the first spam incident, I wrote to them pointing out that I had not
authorised their sending of junkmail and that although no charge would be
made this time, any future use (by them) of my storage would be charged out
at £50 plus VAT per incident. Then they spammed me again which is why I
issued an invoice. Subsequently I have been chasing payment.......



Good grief man. Hit the delete key and get on with your life for
pity's sake.

I get over 120 spams a day - yes it's annoying but spam filter puts it
in a spam folder and it's deleted.

I'm sure they had a great laugh when they got your invoice!

Oh look everybody "Huge" has *plonked* me.

Oh the shame, how could you do such a thing, life just isn't worth it if
"Huge" isn't reading my posts.

Like anyone's bothered!

Read my lips "get a life" plonker.

Mike P.