For those DIYers who buy from Screwfix:

You might like to be aware of their spam policy, which I have found out to
my cost. I am intending to issue legal action for recovery of my invoice
amount.


After the first spam incident, I wrote to them pointing out that I had not
authorised their sending of junkmail and that although no charge would be
made this time, any future use (by them) of my storage would be charged out
at £50 plus VAT per incident. Then they spammed me again which is why I
issued an invoice. Subsequently I have been chasing payment.......


I received the following letter:

3 December 2003

I write following your telephone calls chasing the payment of your
speculative invoice. Although we are not obliged at all to your invoice,
statement of account or telephone calls, given your persistence with this
matter, I am writing to finally confirm that we will not be making any
payment to you.

There has been no breach by us of any legislation in force at the time that
the marketing emails were sent and you are now suppressed on our database so
no further marketing emails will be sent to you.

Although we are under a duty to to process "opt-out" requests reasonably
promptly, we are not required to immediately suppress a customer's email
details, and indeed it would be unreasonable to be so required.. As we use
a third party mailing house to deal with our email marketing campaigns,
there naturally will be some emails which are sent during the period between
the opt-out request being received by us and it being processed.

I gather that you have mentioned the new legislation which comes into force
on 11 December 2003 although I am puzzled how this will bolster your case
given that it is not retrospective. Even once the new legislation is in
force, we will continue to send email marketing to our customers without
their explicit prior consent ('opt-in'). The new regime allows us to send
marketing emails which relate to the same or similar products to those
purchased (i.e. in the case of Screfix Direct, our entire range) so long as
we offer a no-cost opportunity to 'opt-out' from receiving future
e-mailings. In any event the new legislation relates only to personal (not
business) email addresses, and your business' email address would therefore not be afforded the new protection.

I trust that this now puts an end to this matter, and would request that you
cease from any further chasing for payment of your invoice. However, you
are, of course free to seek legal advice regarding your complaint and if you
feel minded to issue legal proceedings, as you have threatened, please
ensure they are served on us at our registered office address below, marked
for my attention.

Yours sincerely

Richard MacNamara
Company Secretary

HO reception +44 1935 414100




I am committed to the Boulder Pledge, which states that I will not buy
anything from a spammer. Sad really, because they have a good
range.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:

After the first spam incident, I wrote to them pointing out that I had not
authorised their sending of junkmail and that although no charge would be
made this time, any future use (by them) of my storage would be charged out
at £50 plus VAT per incident. Then they spammed me again which is why I
issued an invoice. Subsequently I have been chasing payment.......


I received the following letter:

Hmmm...

I'm generally very spam intolerant, but I don't think screwfix
are in the wrong here.

The mere fact that they bothered to reply to you is indicative
of their overall superb customer service.

By the way, did you get their permission before publishing that
letter here?

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message

I'm generally very spam intolerant, but I don't think screwfix
are in the wrong here.

The mere fact that they bothered to reply to you is indicative
of their overall superb customer service.

By the way, did you get their permission before publishing that
letter here?

First off:

The letter belongs to whomsoever it was sent to. The recipient
can do what he wishes with it.

In this country it is illegal to hold information about anyone on
computer without the person's knowledge. I am not sure it is a matter of
gaining consent though.

No one is allowed to send spam in the name of good service surely? What
exactly are the laws of this land on that; anyone know?


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article lgate.org,
"Michael McNeil" writes:
"Grunff" wrote in message

I'm generally very spam intolerant, but I don't think screwfix
are in the wrong here.

The mere fact that they bothered to reply to you is indicative
of their overall superb customer service.

By the way, did you get their permission before publishing that
letter here?

First off:

The letter belongs to whomsoever it was sent to. The recipient
can do what he wishes with it.

Your knowlege of copyright is sadly lacking.

In this country it is illegal to hold information about anyone on
computer without the person's knowledge.

Your knowlege of the Data Protection Act is similarly lacking.

I am not sure it is a matter of
gaining consent though.

No.

No one is allowed to send spam in the name of good service surely? What
exactly are the laws of this land on that; anyone know?

Yes, but they change in a few days time.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Michael McNeil" wrote in message
news:b9bae1f1fa58871c4be77de5241316ac.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...
"Grunff" wrote in message

I'm generally very spam intolerant, but I don't think screwfix
are in the wrong here.

The mere fact that they bothered to reply to you is indicative
of their overall superb customer service.

By the way, did you get their permission before publishing that
letter here?

First off:

The letter belongs to whomsoever it was sent to. The recipient
can do what he wishes with it.

In this country it is illegal to hold information about anyone on
computer without the person's knowledge. I am not sure it is a matter of
gaining consent though.

Ooops, try again...



No one is allowed to send spam in the name of good service surely? What
exactly are the laws of this land on that; anyone know?


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article , Grunff
wrote:

I'm generally very spam intolerant, but I don't think screwfix
are in the wrong here.

a) The "Do not spam me" button on the wevsite was selected.

b) They spammed me anyway.

c) They were told again not to and that I would look to recover my costs of
reporting them to their upstream, clearing the crap from my system and
incorporating spamblocked.com filtering etc in the event of a repeat.

d) They ignored me and spammed me again.

The mere fact that they bothered to reply to you is indicative
of their overall superb customer service.

Indicative only of the fact that I told them I was intending to issue legal
action. As you saw, they also believe that it is perfectly reasonable to
continue to spam regardless.

By the way, did you get their permission before publishing that
letter here?

They have been warned that any communications will be used in whatever
manner I choose, including publishing in the newspapers if need be. So far
the local paper has taken an interest, although I intend to offer the story
to a national too. I need to find out how that may affect a court case
first though. It should make an interesting test case!

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...
In article , Grunff
wrote:

snip

By the way, did you get their permission before publishing that
letter here?

They have been warned that any communications will be used in whatever
manner I choose, including publishing in the newspapers if need be. So far
the local paper has taken an interest, although I intend to offer the
story
to a national too. I need to find out how that may affect a court case
first though. It should make an interesting test case!

I fail to see how warning someone that their reply will be published, yet
requiring a reply is fair. They have not expressly given their permission
for publishing of the mail. Had they not replied, you would then get
annoyed at them for that!

D

In article , David Hearn
wrote:

They have not expressly given their permission
for publishing of the mail.

They were told specifically NOT to spam me. They then did it twice, despite
my warning. Pot, kettle, black?

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

AJL put in his post:

AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk


Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

Aren't you advertising your business?

Mike P.

In article , Mike P
wrote:

Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

That's called a signature. Your software is supposed to snip anything after
the delimiter "dash dash space". Check the RFCs for info about sig files.


--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike P
wrote:

Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

That's called a signature. Your software is supposed to snip anything
after
the delimiter "dash dash space". Check the RFCs for info about sig files.


--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Its still downloaded and wastes bandwidth (at least, that's what people who
complain about short adverts in newsgroups claim about the posts)...
Whilst a reader may strip it - it still displays it - else what's the point
of it being there if we can't see it?

D

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote:
In article , Mike P
wrote:

Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

That's called a signature. Your software is supposed to snip anything after
the delimiter "dash dash space". Check the RFCs for info about sig files.

So if my "software is supposed to snip anything after the delimiter"
why do you put it there then?

--
Chris Green )

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:53:05 UTC, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
wrote:

In article , Mike P
wrote:

Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

That's called a signature. Your software is supposed to snip anything after
the delimiter "dash dash space". Check the RFCs for info about sig files.

To be more accurate, it is supposed to snip the delimiter and anything
after it. But not for display...for followups.

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:42:44 +0000 (UTC), "Mike P"
wrote:

AJL put in his post:

AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk


Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?


No, it's part of a valid sig.

Aren't you advertising your business?

That much is acceptable and it may be useful to the group.

DG

Aren't you advertising your business?
That much is acceptable and it may be useful to the group.
DG

But isn't the information Screwfix sends out to their existing customers
concidered useful?, I think so!.

After starting the debate do you honestly think that AJL is going to throw
his Screwfix catalogue in the bin and rip the arms of his teddy bear, nah!

I wonder how the prices for TV/Sky accessories on his site compare to
Screwfix, does he sell 10 x Female connectors for £1.20, if it didn't take
so long to open the pages on his site (yawn) I might be able to tell you.

Spam rhymes with Scam, he might be touting for sales by trying to put us off
Screwfix.

Mike P

Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

The other day I telephone ordered some items (cc purchase) from a firm and
they wanted my phone number. I gave them only my disposable mobile number.
They rang back a week later saying the order had arrived but on their
bank's instructions, they wouldn't despatch them without a landline number.
I said that company policy was absolutely not to give them a landline
number - even if (for the sake of argument) there was one.

"Mike P" wrote in message
...
AJL put in his post:

AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk


Ang about, aren't these a form SPAMS?

Aren't you advertising your business?

Mike P.

Yes, I was going to point this out too - however whilst this group doesn't
have a charter, the FAQ states that 4 lines of 75 characters are allowed as
signature adverts for posters.

Must admit though - its theft of my bandwidth by all of about 100 characters
Its certainly unsolicited and commercial though... bulk... well, its
indiscriminate...

I'd like to opt out of it please.

D

"Andy Luckman wrote
Grunff wrote:

I'm generally very spam intolerant, but I don't think screwfix
are in the wrong here.

Well, at least it's (semi) targeted.

They have been warned that any communications will be used in whatever
manner I choose, including publishing in the newspapers if need be. So far
the local paper has taken an interest, although I intend to offer the story
to a national too. I need to find out how that may affect a court case
first though. It should make an interesting test case!

Christ on a bike, haven't you anything better to do.

I hope you have pursued the purveyors of bargain viagra and dodgy porn
with similar vigour.

Cheers,

Paul.

I know it's a question of semantics, but is it really spam if someone to
whom you have freely given your email adress and possibly purchased
from, then sends you adverts?
I don't consider this the same thing as the normal sort of spam, which
is a real problem.

I've snipped the adverts from the orignal post...

Lee
--
To reply use lee.blaver and ntlworld.com

In article , Lee
Blaver wrote:
I know it's a question of semantics, but is it really spam
if someone to whom you have freely given your email adress
and possibly purchased from, then sends you adverts?
I don't consider this the same thing as the norma

I'm with you here. But if the OP decides that he never wants to
deal with Screwfix ever again then a proverb about noses and
cutting comes to mind.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article , Tony Bryer
wrote:
In article , Lee
Blaver wrote:
I know it's a question of semantics, but is it really spam
if someone to whom you have freely given your email adress
and possibly purchased from, then sends you adverts?
I don't consider this the same thing as the norma

I'm with you here. But if the OP decides that he never wants to
deal with Screwfix ever again then a proverb about noses and
cutting comes to mind.

The fact that they have been trusted my email address does not give them the
right to ignore my instructions NOT to spam me. If they can't offer me this
simple courtesy, I have no wish to use their service anymore.


--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

In article , Andy Luckman (AJL
Electronics) wrote:
. If they can't offer me this
simple courtesy, I have no wish to use their service anymore.

Fair enough. But who is the loser?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article , Tony Bryer
wrote:
In article , Andy Luckman (AJL
Electronics) wrote:
. If they can't offer me this
simple courtesy, I have no wish to use their service anymore.

Fair enough. But who is the loser?

Only them, although I don't suppose they will even notice. :-)

There are reputable suppliers out there like Unifix who I always used to
use. They will match Screwfix for price but give a better service.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Now lets see how you answer this one.
If you advertise your business deals in your local paper then you have just
SPAMMED me. I buy the paper to read the news and your ad (SPAM) ****es me
off. Do you also sue those who drop SPAM through your letterbox and cause
you to bend over to pick it up and take it to the bin. Get real man--or get
a weapon you know how to use.

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...

For those DIYers who buy from Screwfix:

You might like to be aware of their spam policy, which I have found out to
my cost. I am intending to issue legal action for recovery of my invoice
amount.

Snip

I am committed to the Boulder Pledge, which states that I will not buy
anything from a spammer. Sad really, because they have a good
range.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk






Why disclose your email address anyway?

In article , TonyK
wrote:


Why disclose your email address anyway?

It was a "refer a friend" on their website. Luckily I always use a unique
address for this sort of thing so that I can track any untoward use. My mail
is filtered by spamblocked.com too, so it is easy to get junk stopped at the
router.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
...

For those DIYers who buy from Screwfix:

You might like to be aware of their spam policy, which I have found out to
my cost. I am intending to issue legal action for recovery of my invoice
amount.


After the first spam incident, I wrote to them pointing out that I had not
authorised their sending of junkmail and that although no charge would be
made this time, any future use (by them) of my storage would be charged
out
at £50 plus VAT per incident. Then they spammed me again which is why I
issued an invoice. Subsequently I have been chasing payment.......


I received the following letter:

3 December 2003

I write following your telephone calls chasing the payment of your
speculative invoice. Although we are not obliged at all to your invoice,
statement of account or telephone calls, given your persistence with this
matter, I am writing to finally confirm that we will not be making any
payment to you.

There has been no breach by us of any legislation in force at the time
that
the marketing emails were sent and you are now suppressed on our database
so
no further marketing emails will be sent to you.

Although we are under a duty to to process "opt-out" requests reasonably
promptly, we are not required to immediately suppress a customer's email
details, and indeed it would be unreasonable to be so required.. As we
use
a third party mailing house to deal with our email marketing campaigns,
there naturally will be some emails which are sent during the period
between
the opt-out request being received by us and it being processed.

I gather that you have mentioned the new legislation which comes into
force
on 11 December 2003 although I am puzzled how this will bolster your case
given that it is not retrospective. Even once the new legislation is in
force, we will continue to send email marketing to our customers without
their explicit prior consent ('opt-in'). The new regime allows us to send
marketing emails which relate to the same or similar products to those
purchased (i.e. in the case of Screfix Direct, our entire range) so long
as
we offer a no-cost opportunity to 'opt-out' from receiving future
e-mailings. In any event the new legislation relates only to personal
(not
business) email addresses, and your business' email address would
therefore not be afforded the new protection.

I trust that this now puts an end to this matter, and would request that
you
cease from any further chasing for payment of your invoice. However, you
are, of course free to seek legal advice regarding your complaint and if
you
feel minded to issue legal proceedings, as you have threatened, please
ensure they are served on us at our registered office address below,
marked
for my attention.

Yours sincerely

Richard MacNamara
Company Secretary

HO reception +44 1935 414100




I am committed to the Boulder Pledge, which states that I will not buy
anything from a spammer. Sad really, because they have a good
range.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

I'm sorry but I fail to see the problem. As a customer of Screwfix you have
received emails from them about their products. You requested to be removed
from their list, which they did, however emails still got through before
your request was processed (by a 3rd party).

You also were referring to legislation which has not come into effect yet
(which excludes emails to business email accounts which are still
unregulated)

Their letter has actually raised my impression of Screwfix as they obviously
take customer comments seriously and have acted responsibly in my opinion.

Incidentally, with letters, the contents (ie. words) of the letter are
copyright of the author. The medium on which they are written (eg. paper)
can be sold but not republished without permission of the author.
Therefore, copy/pasting an email/letter into a newsgroup posting without
permission of the author isn't right. Any disputes, do a search on
newsgroups for "legal publish letter" and see what comes up.

D

In article , David Hearn
wrote:


I'm sorry but I fail to see the problem. As a customer of Screwfix you have
received emails from them about their products.


No I haven't. I specifically said they should NOT spam me.


You requested to be removed
from their list,

I pointed out their transgression and gave them the opportunity
to remedy it.

which they did, however emails still got through before
your request was processed (by a 3rd party).

Not my problem. There were three weeks between my letter and their
subsequent spam.

You also were referring to legislation which has not come into effect yet
(which excludes emails to business email accounts which are still
unregulated)

That came from a comment in my telephone call to them about what they intend
to do once the new legislation is brought in. You can see that it will not
make the slightest difference to them.
I am sick of having to spend time sorting out my genuine customer emails
from junk that I have not asked for, and indeed have specifically
rejected. Reputable companies do not spam. Those who spam me, lose my
business, it's as simple as that.


--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Andy '****wit' Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:
I am sick of having to spend time sorting out my genuine customer
emails from junk that I have not asked for, and indeed have

It would appear from your actions that you have more than enough time on
your hands. As you & they used a unique address, block it and move on.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

In message , "Andy Luckman (AJL
Electronics)" writes
In article , David Hearn
wrote:


I'm sorry but I fail to see the problem. As a customer of Screwfix you have
received emails from them about their products.


No I haven't. I specifically said they should NOT spam me.

Fair enough, though I presume at some point the 'send me emails about
promotions' option was selected?


which they did, however emails still got through before
your request was processed (by a 3rd party).

Not my problem. There were three weeks between my letter and their
subsequent spam.

I am sick of having to spend time sorting out my genuine customer emails
from junk that I have not asked for, and indeed have specifically
rejected. Reputable companies do not spam. Those who spam me, lose my
business, it's as simple as that.

so all this fuss is because they took a few weeks to process this. Ok,
you could reasonably argue that in this day and age that is longer than
necessary - but is all this ranting really necessary over few emails?

I've never been sent such emails from Screwfix, given the number of us
here that use them I would have expected more messages of support for
you if this was a such a great problem.

--
Chris French, Leeds

In article , chris French
wrote:

Fair enough, though I presume at some point the 'send me emails about
promotions' option was selected?

No, that is the point. They ignored my original instruction when I provided
the address.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...


Their letter has actually raised my impression of Screwfix as they
obviously
take customer comments seriously and have acted responsibly in my opinion.

Disagree, as they threaten that a previous interest in a particular product
is a green light to email about ANY of their products. IMHO that is going
too far. I opted out a few days ago when the MD emailed that there were
some new sockets in stock and then another email followed not long
afterwards. Don't know whether I am in practice opted-out or not but when I
checked my account I still have the opt-in box ticked, something I am not
sure I ever selected. Without necessarily agreening with the OP, the
Screwfix letter is too cavalier for my liking.

Alan

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:42:57 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:

You also were referring to legislation which has not come into effect yet

Oh yes it has! - sorry, having a seasonal moment. ;O)


Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

YOU buy from Screwfix and you don't want to know what new products or price
reductions they have to offer you?

Very strange!

Why not just add it to your Block List?

I'm with Screwfix on this one.

Mike P.

In message , Mike P
writes
YOU buy from Screwfix and you don't want to know what new products or price
reductions they have to offer you?

Very strange!

Not at all, I nearly always tick the relevant boxes for not receiving
emails about promotions etc. I never really find them of benefit.

--
Chris French, Leeds

YOU buy from Screwfix and you don't want to know what new products or
price
reductions they have to offer you?

Very strange!

Not at all, I nearly always tick the relevant boxes for not receiving
emails about promotions etc. I never really find them of benefit.

--
Chris French, Leeds

Well you've missed some bargains then, why subscribe or order from them if
you miss the opportunity to save money!

Mike P.

In message , Mike P
writes
YOU buy from Screwfix and you don't want to know what new products or
price
reductions they have to offer you?

Very strange!

Not at all, I nearly always tick the relevant boxes for not receiving
emails about promotions etc. I never really find them of benefit.

Well you've missed some bargains then,

Possibly, but IME unlikely for me.

why subscribe

I don't subscribe to anything with them.

or order from them

I order things that I want when I want them for the normal reasons.,
their prices are pretty good, delivery is usually good etc.

if
you miss the opportunity to save money!

For the same reasons as I don't want junk snail mail or junk phone
calls. While there is a small possibility I may derive some benefit, the
hassle factor isn't worth it for me.

YMMV (it would seem :-))
--
Chris French, Leeds

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:55:29 +0000 (UTC), "Mike P"
wrote:

YOU buy from Screwfix and you don't want to know what new products or price
reductions they have to offer you?

Very strange!

Why not just add it to your Block List?

I'm with Screwfix on this one.

Mike P.


Hell I was glad to get it at least I could read it with interest
instead of spending all my free time dealing with all these naughty
Russian schoolgirls out there. ;-)

Mark S.

"Mike P" wrote in message ...
YOU buy from Screwfix and you don't want to know what new products or price
reductions they have to offer you?

Very strange!

Why not just add it to your Block List?

I'm with Screwfix on this one.

Mike P.

Sorry to be blunt, but I think the original poster is a fool to
himself and has shot himself in the foot....!

I agree with Screwfix.

morgan

How on earth do you cope if you get an unsolicited phone call!!