I have a dual 13A socket under my kitchen sink - powering the dishwasher
and waste disposal device. I need power for an additional appliance and
would prefer to install an additional socket rather than use a 2-way
adapter.

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all disappear
behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no easy way of
knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3 and finding out
what doesn't then work, etc.

If there were only two, it would be easy to wire the new socket into the
ring by diverting one of the two to it and then having another short
cable between the two sockets.

If I randomly pick one of the three to divert, I may well achieve the
same thing. But I may instead end up with two daisy-chained spurs. [This
probably wouldn't matter in practice, even though it's not in accordance
with the regs].

However, if I could get FOUR wires into the existing socket, I would
have a ring plus two separate spurs - which would presumably be ok? I
wouldn't then need to worry about which one is the spur.

Is this likely to be possible? Any other relevant comments (ignoring
Part P, of course!)?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On Monday 01 April 2013 12:56 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:

I have a dual 13A socket under my kitchen sink - powering the dishwasher
and waste disposal device. I need power for an additional appliance and
would prefer to install an additional socket rather than use a 2-way
adapter.

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all disappear
behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no easy way of
knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3 and finding out
what doesn't then work, etc.

That might be worth doing - at least when you do the wiring - just to verify
it is sane.

If there were only two, it would be easy to wire the new socket into the
ring by diverting one of the two to it and then having another short
cable between the two sockets.

If I randomly pick one of the three to divert, I may well achieve the
same thing. But I may instead end up with two daisy-chained spurs. [This
probably wouldn't matter in practice, even though it's not in accordance
with the regs].

However, if I could get FOUR wires into the existing socket, I would
have a ring plus two separate spurs - which would presumably be ok? I
wouldn't then need to worry about which one is the spur.

Is this likely to be possible? Any other relevant comments (ignoring
Part P, of course!)?

It would not be compliant - either with the regs or (I believe) with the
terminal capacity of a standard accessory.

The correct way to do this would be to try to cut out a new flush box next
to the existing socket *around* one of the ring cables (not the spur).

Then incorporate into the ring.

If your additional appliance is not power hungry, and given one load is tiny
and the other is heavy but very intermittent (dishwasher - only heavy for
the short time the heater runs) could you use one of the triple faceplates
over the old double backbox?

I would not like to have 2 or 3 heavy power users in those, but for your
scenario it seems reasonable - and better than an adaptor. But not as good
as a new socket.

Cheers,

Tim

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

Roger Mills wrote:

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all
disappear behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no
easy way of knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3
and finding out what doesn't then work, etc.

No multimeter?

--
Adam

In message , ARW
writes
Roger Mills wrote:

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all
disappear behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no
easy way of knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3
and finding out what doesn't then work, etc.


No multimeter?

I asked a colleague of mine the other day if he had a DVM and he said "A
what?" and he reckons that he is a qualified electrician......

In the OP's case it would be simple to find which pair are the ring,
separate all 3 T&E and then check which 2 were live, the dead one would
be the feed to the spur. At least that is what I would hope to
find......

Unless it was wired by a plumber of course, then a Ouija board maybe of
more help.


--
Bill

En el artículo , Roger Mills
escribió:

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all disappear
behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no easy way of
knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3 and finding out
what doesn't then work, etc.

Given that you would have to take the existing socket off to add another
anyway, testing is easy. Power off, take existing socket off, separate
wires, power on, test (carefully!) with a meter to see which two are
live - that'll be the ring. Power off, bit of tape round them to
identify them. The dead wire will be the spur. You can then add the
extra socket into the ring.

However, if I could get FOUR wires into the existing socket

Bad idea. While you might be able to manage it, the terminals aren't
designed for it, and you'll have fun trying to stuff everything back
into the box, especially as you'll be working under the sink.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Roger Mills
escribió:

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which
I assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all
disappear behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's
no easy way of knowing which is the spur - other than separating
the 3 and finding out what doesn't then work, etc.

Given that you would have to take the existing socket off to add
another anyway, testing is easy. Power off, take existing socket
off, separate wires, power on, test (carefully!) with a meter to see
which two are live - that'll be the ring. Power off, bit of tape
round them to identify them. The dead wire will be the spur. You can
then add the extra socket into the ring.

I was thinking power off and a continuity test!

--
Adam

On 01/04/2013 13:40, Bill wrote:


In the OP's case it would be simple to find which pair are the ring,
separate all 3 T&E and then check which 2 were live, the dead one would
be the feed to the spur. At least that is what I would hope to find......

Yes, obvious isn't it! I don't why I didn't think of that. My brain must
be addled because of the date, or something. g

Unless it was wired by a plumber of course, then a Ouija board maybe of
more help.


No, it was was wired by an electrician (and Part P certified) when the
kitchen was re-done a couple of years ago. Although I photographed the
first fix electrical installation prior to plastering, none of photos
show quite what I need to know!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

On 01/04/2013 13:08, ARW wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all
disappear behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no
easy way of knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3
and finding out what doesn't then work, etc.

No multimeter?


Yes, several! I was thinking in terms of having to disconnect the
circuit at the consumer unit in order to trace it - but it's now obvious
that I don't need to do that.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
Yes, several! I was thinking in terms of having to disconnect the
circuit at the consumer unit in order to trace it - but it's now obvious
that I don't need to do that.

Easiest way is just to disconnect the earth wires, then find out which one
is connected to the spur socket, by probing a fixing screw on that. If you
can see which TW&E it belongs to, you have your answer. But you do need to
measure a dead short on your DVM, rather than just any old reading.

--
*Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/04/2013 13:05, Tim Watts wrote:


If your additional appliance is not power hungry, and given one load is tiny
and the other is heavy but very intermittent (dishwasher - only heavy for
the short time the heater runs) could you use one of the triple faceplates
over the old double backbox?


The new appliance (boiling water tap) has a 3kW heater but is
intermittent - only coming on to top up the temperature of its
reservoir. The dishwasher is a heavy user - but only when running. The
food waste disposer only runs for a few seconds at a time when we want
to get rid of some solid food waste.

The existing double outlet is surface mounted on the side of the
cabinet, just inside the door - with the wiring coming from the back in
a conduit. So the accessibility isn't too much of a problem. I could
potentially convert it to a triple with (say) a Screwfix 17315 - but
that has a 13A fuse, which would probably blow if the water heater and
dishwasher both operated at the same time. Also, a triple would extend
further into the cabinet (unless mounted vertically) and wouldn't clear
the body of the waste disposer.

So I still think that the best bet is to install an additional single or
double surface mounted socket in close proximity to the existing one.
Each appliance can then draw up to 13A with impunity whenever it wants to.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

On 01/04/2013 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Roger wrote:
Yes, several! I was thinking in terms of having to disconnect the
circuit at the consumer unit in order to trace it - but it's now obvious
that I don't need to do that.

Easiest way is just to disconnect the earth wires, then find out which one
is connected to the spur socket, by probing a fixing screw on that. If you
can see which TW&E it belongs to, you have your answer. But you do need to
measure a dead short on your DVM, rather than just any old reading.

The only problem is that I don't know where the spur goes! I don't know
whether it powers a socket or something like the cooker hood, or heated
drawer.

But, as others have said, if I power down, disconnect all 3, power up
again and check which 2 wires are live, I will know which is the spur -
regardless of what it does.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

On 01/04/2013 17:25, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 16:10:30 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

But, as others have said, if I power down, disconnect all 3, power up
again and check which 2 wires are live, I will know which is the spur -
regardless of what it does.

Well you can but I quite like the power down, disconnect all three and
then use a meter to see which lives are still connected to each other. No
second trip back to the CU, no live working. The two still connected to
each other are the ring, the isolated one the spur.

Good point!

The fun starts when
they are still all connected to each other via dead shorts...


.. . or when nothing is connected to anything, if the ring has a
discontinuity! Hopefully not, since I have reasonable faith in the bloke
who did - and Part P certified - the electrical installation - although
he did do the second fix without noticing that the plasterers had
plastered over a double socket box until I pointed it out!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

On Apr 1, 12:56*pm, Roger Mills wrote:
I have a dual 13A socket under my kitchen sink - powering the dishwasher
and waste disposal device. I need power for an additional appliance and
would prefer to install an additional socket rather than use a 2-way
adapter.

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which I
assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all disappear
behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's no easy way of
knowing which is the spur - other than separating the 3 and finding out
what doesn't then work, etc.

If there were only two, it would be easy to wire the new socket into the
ring by diverting one of the two to it and then having another short
cable between the two sockets.

If I randomly pick one of the three to divert, I may well achieve the
same thing. But I may instead end up with two daisy-chained spurs. [This
probably wouldn't matter in practice, even though it's not in accordance
with the regs].

However, if I could get FOUR wires into the existing socket, I would
have a ring plus two separate spurs - which would presumably be ok? I
wouldn't then need to worry about which one is the spur.

Is this likely to be possible? Any other relevant comments (ignoring
Part P, of course!)?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Turn off power, remove socket and separate out the wires.
Turn power on, check out which wires are live, they are the ring the
other (dead one) is the spur.

On Apr 1, 3:51*pm, Roger Mills wrote:
On 01/04/2013 13:05, Tim Watts wrote:



If your additional appliance is not power hungry, and given one load is tiny
and the other is heavy but very intermittent (dishwasher - only *heavy for
the short time the heater runs) could you use one of the triple faceplates
over the old double backbox?

The new appliance (boiling water tap) has a 3kW heater but is
intermittent - only coming on to top up the temperature of its
reservoir. The dishwasher is a heavy user - but only when running. The
food waste disposer only runs for a few seconds at a time when we want
to get rid of some solid food waste.

The existing double outlet is surface mounted on the side of the
cabinet, just inside the door - with the wiring coming from the back in
a conduit. So the accessibility isn't too much of a problem. I could
potentially convert it to a triple with (say) a Screwfix 17315 *- but
that has a 13A fuse, which would probably blow if the water heater and
dishwasher both operated at the same time. Also, a triple would extend
further into the cabinet (unless mounted vertically) and wouldn't clear
the body of the waste disposer.

So I still think that the best bet is to install an additional single or
double surface mounted socket in close proximity to the existing one.
Each appliance can then draw up to 13A with impunity whenever it wants to..
--


If it's a 3Kw appliance, it would be better on a separate circuit
wired back to the CU rather than on the ring.

harry wrote:
On Apr 1, 12:56 pm, Roger Mills wrote:
I have a dual 13A socket under my kitchen sink - powering the
dishwasher and waste disposal device. I need power for an
additional appliance and would prefer to install an additional
socket rather than use a 2-way adapter.

The current socket has 3 x 2.5mm T&E cables connected to it - which
I assume to be two for the ring main plus a spur. The cables all
disappear behind the cabinets (I didn't install them!) and there's
no easy way of knowing which is the spur - other than separating
the 3 and finding out what doesn't then work, etc.

If there were only two, it would be easy to wire the new socket
into the ring by diverting one of the two to it and then having
another short cable between the two sockets.

If I randomly pick one of the three to divert, I may well achieve
the same thing. But I may instead end up with two daisy-chained
spurs. [This probably wouldn't matter in practice, even though it's
not in accordance with the regs].

However, if I could get FOUR wires into the existing socket, I would
have a ring plus two separate spurs - which would presumably be ok?
I wouldn't then need to worry about which one is the spur.

Is this likely to be possible? Any other relevant comments (ignoring
Part P, of course!)?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is
seldom checked.

Turn off power, remove socket and separate out the wires.
Turn power on, check out which wires are live, they are the ring the
other (dead one) is the spur.

So only Dave Liquorice and myself wants to do the job properly and work on a
dead supply:-)?

Easy and safer to do than a live test.


--
Adam

harry wrote:
On Apr 1, 3:51 pm, Roger Mills wrote:
On 01/04/2013 13:05, Tim Watts wrote:



If your additional appliance is not power hungry, and given one
load is tiny and the other is heavy but very intermittent
(dishwasher - only heavy for the short time the heater runs)
could you use one of the triple faceplates over the old double
backbox?

The new appliance (boiling water tap) has a 3kW heater but is
intermittent - only coming on to top up the temperature of its
reservoir. The dishwasher is a heavy user - but only when running.
The food waste disposer only runs for a few seconds at a time when
we want
to get rid of some solid food waste.

The existing double outlet is surface mounted on the side of the
cabinet, just inside the door - with the wiring coming from the
back in
a conduit. So the accessibility isn't too much of a problem. I could
potentially convert it to a triple with (say) a Screwfix 17315 - but
that has a 13A fuse, which would probably blow if the water heater
and dishwasher both operated at the same time. Also, a triple would
extend further into the cabinet (unless mounted vertically) and
wouldn't clear the body of the waste disposer.

So I still think that the best bet is to install an additional
single or double surface mounted socket in close proximity to the
existing one. Each appliance can then draw up to 13A with impunity
whenever it wants to. --


If it's a 3Kw appliance, it would be better on a separate circuit
wired back to the CU rather than on the ring.

Well that means that any socket that powers my kettle is ****ed/not fit for
use/should be on a radial circuit.

--
Adam

On 01/04/2013 16:10, Roger Mills wrote:
On 01/04/2013 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Roger wrote:
Yes, several! I was thinking in terms of having to disconnect the
circuit at the consumer unit in order to trace it - but it's now obvious
that I don't need to do that.

Easiest way is just to disconnect the earth wires, then find out which
one
is connected to the spur socket, by probing a fixing screw on that. If
you
can see which TW&E it belongs to, you have your answer. But you do
need to
measure a dead short on your DVM, rather than just any old reading.

The only problem is that I don't know where the spur goes! I don't know
whether it powers a socket or something like the cooker hood, or heated
drawer.

But, as others have said, if I power down, disconnect all 3, power up
again and check which 2 wires are live, I will know which is the spur -
regardless of what it does.

The other "tool" which can be handy is the socket tester thingy which
looks like a 13A plug but has three lights in it. I've butchered one of
these to terminate in three leads with croc clips on. Particularly
useful on lighting roses but also useful here as it will reveal things
like missing live or missing neutral on one half of the ring-main.

If you don't want to butcher one you could temporarily connect each T&E
in turn to a spare single socket for testing.

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 16:10:30 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

But, as others have said, if I power down, disconnect all 3, power up
again and check which 2 wires are live, I will know which is the spur -
regardless of what it does.

Well you can but I quite like the power down, disconnect all three and
then use a meter to see which lives are still connected to each other. No
second trip back to the CU, no live working. The two still connected to
each other are the ring, the isolated one the spur. The fun starts when
they are still all connected to each other via dead shorts...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 01/04/2013 16:50, ARW wrote:
harry wrote:


Turn off power, remove socket and separate out the wires.
Turn power on, check out which wires are live, they are the ring the
other (dead one) is the spur.

So only Dave Liquorice and myself wants to do the job properly and work on a
dead supply:-)?

Easy and safer to do than a live test.


Don't always agree with Harry; OP may not have a tone generator but
probably has a volt stick, meter, or horror neon screwdriver.

If done with a bit of care, the check described above is pretty quick,
safe, and reliable.

newshound wrote:
On 01/04/2013 16:50, ARW wrote:
harry wrote:


Turn off power, remove socket and separate out the wires.
Turn power on, check out which wires are live, they are the ring
the other (dead one) is the spur.

So only Dave Liquorice and myself wants to do the job properly and
work on a dead supply:-)?

Easy and safer to do than a live test.


Don't always agree with Harry; OP may not have a tone generator but
probably has a volt stick, meter, or horror neon screwdriver.

If done with a bit of care, the check described above is pretty quick,
safe, and reliable.

So is euthanasia -

--
Adam

On Monday 01 April 2013 15:51 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:


The new appliance (boiling water tap) has a 3kW heater but is
intermittent - only coming on to top up the temperature of its
reservoir. The dishwasher is a heavy user - but only when running. The
food waste disposer only runs for a few seconds at a time when we want
to get rid of some solid food waste.

The existing double outlet is surface mounted on the side of the
cabinet, just inside the door - with the wiring coming from the back in
a conduit. So the accessibility isn't too much of a problem. I could
potentially convert it to a triple with (say) a Screwfix 17315 - but
that has a 13A fuse, which would probably blow if the water heater and
dishwasher both operated at the same time. Also, a triple would extend
further into the cabinet (unless mounted vertically) and wouldn't clear
the body of the waste disposer.

So I still think that the best bet is to install an additional single or
double surface mounted socket in close proximity to the existing one.
Each appliance can then draw up to 13A with impunity whenever it wants to.

OK - I'm against the triple. I would not really want those on a double
plate. The disposal unit takes bugger all and runs for seconds - but the
water heater is likely to pull for some minutes and the dishwasher
similarly.

A double socket is rated at 20A max total - and although the loads will be
highly intermittent, I would do the extra work and stick a second seperate
socket in.

An option involving no wall bashing would be to blank off the old socket
box, and use it to hold a joint for the ring and the spur - so two cables
emerge from the box at surface level and you run these around a couple of
surface mounted sockets.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
Easiest way is just to disconnect the earth wires, then find out which
one is connected to the spur socket, by probing a fixing screw on
that. If you can see which TW&E it belongs to, you have your answer.
But you do need to measure a dead short on your DVM, rather than just
any old reading.

The only problem is that I don't know where the spur goes! I don't know
whether it powers a socket or something like the cooker hood, or heated
drawer.

Whatever it is will likely be closest to this socket.

But, as others have said, if I power down, disconnect all 3, power up
again and check which 2 wires are live, I will know which is the spur -
regardless of what it does.

My way is easier. ;-)

--
*Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:04:08 +0100, newshound wrote:

Turn off power, remove socket and separate out the wires.
Turn power on, check out which wires are live, they are the ring the
other (dead one) is the spur.

So only Dave Liquorice and myself wants to do the job properly and
work on a dead supply:-)?

Easy and safer to do than a live test.

Don't always agree with Harry; OP may not have a tone generator but
probably has a volt stick, meter, or horror neon screwdriver.

Why would one want a tone generator? A continuity meter (a normal
facility on any multimeter) is all that is required.


I use a tone generator and receiver all the time for tracing data
cables, not often on normal mains cables though.

Dave, is your clock set correctly? You seem to be posting an hour ahead
of the rest of the country.

--
Bill

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Monday 01 April 2013 15:51 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:


The new appliance (boiling water tap) has a 3kW heater but is
intermittent - only coming on to top up the temperature of its
reservoir. The dishwasher is a heavy user - but only when running. The
food waste disposer only runs for a few seconds at a time when we want
to get rid of some solid food waste.

The existing double outlet is surface mounted on the side of the
cabinet, just inside the door - with the wiring coming from the back in
a conduit. So the accessibility isn't too much of a problem. I could
potentially convert it to a triple with (say) a Screwfix 17315 - but
that has a 13A fuse, which would probably blow if the water heater and
dishwasher both operated at the same time. Also, a triple would extend
further into the cabinet (unless mounted vertically) and wouldn't clear
the body of the waste disposer.

So I still think that the best bet is to install an additional single or
double surface mounted socket in close proximity to the existing one.
Each appliance can then draw up to 13A with impunity whenever it wants to.

OK - I'm against the triple. I would not really want those on a double
plate. The disposal unit takes bugger all and runs for seconds - but the
water heater is likely to pull for some minutes and the dishwasher
similarly.

A double socket is rated at 20A max total

Surely there would be thousands of people plugging in two 3kW loads and melting them.....

--
Why do they rate a movie "R" for "adult language?"
The only people I hear using that language are teenagers.

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

An option involving no wall bashing would be to blank off the old
socket box, and use it to hold a joint for the ring and the spur - so
two cables emerge from the box at surface level and you run these
around a couple of surface mounted sockets.

Or just cut back the conduit that is feeding the current double socket,
fit another double socket, join those as a ring and take the existing
spur from one of them,

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:04:08 +0100, newshound wrote:

Turn off power, remove socket and separate out the wires.
Turn power on, check out which wires are live, they are the ring the
other (dead one) is the spur.

So only Dave Liquorice and myself wants to do the job properly and
work on a dead supply:-)?

Easy and safer to do than a live test.

Don't always agree with Harry; OP may not have a tone generator but
probably has a volt stick, meter, or horror neon screwdriver.

Why would one want a tone generator? A continuity meter (a normal
facility on any multimeter) is all that is required.

If done with a bit of care, the check described above is pretty quick,
safe, and reliable.

FS (low) VO "safe". These wires are in a cupboard under the sink. I'm not
averse to live working but it does make me nervous, very nervous when
there is more than one exposed live conductor. It's easy to keep out of
the way of one, keeping out of the way of two in a confined space is a
different kettle of fish. I really don't like the FLASH BANG and being
splattered with molten copper... Or getting a belt and in both cases
whacking ones head against the cupboard frame or WHY.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday 01 April 2013 20:42 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

An option involving no wall bashing would be to blank off the old
socket box, and use it to hold a joint for the ring and the spur - so
two cables emerge from the box at surface level and you run these
around a couple of surface mounted sockets.

Or just cut back the conduit that is feeding the current double socket,
fit another double socket, join those as a ring and take the existing
spur from one of them,


Did I miss this being a surface fitting?

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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On Monday 01 April 2013 20:14 Major Scott wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:


A double socket is rated at 20A max total

Surely there would be thousands of people plugging in two 3kW loads and
melting them.....


Apparantly not.
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
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On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:41:16 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Monday 01 April 2013 20:14 Major Scott wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:


A double socket is rated at 20A max total

Surely there would be thousands of people plugging in two 3kW loads and
melting them.....


Apparantly not.

Could it be..... they happily take 24 amps?

--
Reality is for people who can't handle alcohol and joints.

In message , writes
On 1 Apr,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Well you can but I quite like the power down, disconnect all three and
then use a meter to see which lives are still connected to each other. No
second trip back to the CU, no live working. The two still connected to
each other are the ring, the isolated one the spur. The fun starts when
they are still all connected to each other via dead shorts...

Or none are connected, as I found when testing a friend's wiring. Eventually
found (several weeks later) a back box which had been plastered over after
first fix and had never had its socket fitted. 0/10 for the electrician who
originally tested the system!


Not as bad on a safety level, but a friend of mine asked me to check her
new, very expensive flat out, because her TV didn't work. Every point
had the cable neatly coiled in the boxes behind the sockets, just not
connected. In the attic all the cables came to a point on a wall near
to a 13A socket, all ready to be connected to a DA, what DA??

There was an aerial though!! Cable sat next to all the others in the
attic.

Who passed that lot off as complete and tested?

Some dodgy aerial rigger/builder no doubt.

--
Bill
( A different one )

On 01/04/2013 18:04, newshound wrote:


Don't always agree with Harry; OP may not have a tone generator but
probably has a volt stick, meter, or horror neon screwdriver.

If done with a bit of care, the check described above is pretty quick,
safe, and reliable.


No, I haven't got a tone generator - but I have got two or three
multi-meters which will measure voltage and resistance (and hence
continuity). So it shouldn't be too difficult to work out which two
wires are connected to each other via the CU - i.e. the ring - with the
power *off*.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 01/04/2013 18:31, Tim Watts wrote:


An option involving no wall bashing would be to blank off the old socket
box, and use it to hold a joint for the ring and the spur - so two cables
emerge from the box at surface level and you run these around a couple of
surface mounted sockets.


There won't be any wall-bashing anyway. the existing socket is in a
surface box screwed to the *side* of the cabinet, only just inside the
door, so I can easily fix another one just below it and connect that
into the ring once I've determined which two of the three wires *are*
the ring.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 01/04/2013 20:42, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

An option involving no wall bashing would be to blank off the old
socket box, and use it to hold a joint for the ring and the spur - so
two cables emerge from the box at surface level and you run these
around a couple of surface mounted sockets.

Or just cut back the conduit that is feeding the current double socket,
fit another double socket, join those as a ring and take the existing
spur from one of them,


Precisely - except that I don't need to cut back the conduit since
there's plenty of cable which I can pull through.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:40:49 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Or just cut back the conduit that is feeding the current double
socket, fit another double socket, join those as a ring and take the
existing spur from one of them,

Did I miss this being a surface fitting?

Recent comment from the OP mentioned socket near front edge of cupboard
fed by conduit. Well I think it was the OP not thread drift...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 01/04/2013 20:50, Dave Liquorice wrote:


FS (low) VO "safe". These wires are in a cupboard under the sink. I'm not
averse to live working but it does make me nervous, very nervous when
there is more than one exposed live conductor. It's easy to keep out of
the way of one, keeping out of the way of two in a confined space is a
different kettle of fish. I really don't like the FLASH BANG and being
splattered with molten copper... Or getting a belt and in both cases
whacking ones head against the cupboard frame or WHY.


They're actually quite accessible, and I can reach them without any part
of me - except my hands - being in the cupboard. Nevertheless, since I
now realise that it's perfectly simple to work out which wire is which
with the power off, there's no point in having it on!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 20:12:00 +0100, Bill wrote:

Don't always agree with Harry; OP may not have a tone generator but
probably has a volt stick, meter, or horror neon screwdriver.

Why would one want a tone generator? A continuity meter (a normal
facility on any multimeter) is all that is required.

I use a tone generator and receiver all the time for tracing data
cables,

So do I but that is when the two ends you want to trace are physically
some distance apart not all poking out of a double back box. B-)

Dave, is your clock set correctly? You seem to be posting an hour
ahead of the rest of the country.

Vintage (1998) news reader doesn't understand the TZ config.sys setting,
it'll sort itself out next weekend. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

harry writes:

On Apr 1, 3:51*pm, Roger Mills wrote:
On 01/04/2013 13:05, Tim Watts wrote:



If your additional appliance is not power hungry, and given one load is tiny
and the other is heavy but very intermittent (dishwasher - only *heavy for
the short time the heater runs) could you use one of the triple faceplates
over the old double backbox?

The new appliance (boiling water tap) has a 3kW heater but is
intermittent - only coming on to top up the temperature of its
reservoir. The dishwasher is a heavy user - but only when running. The
food waste disposer only runs for a few seconds at a time when we want
to get rid of some solid food waste.

The existing double outlet is surface mounted on the side of the
cabinet, just inside the door - with the wiring coming from the back in
a conduit. So the accessibility isn't too much of a problem. I could
potentially convert it to a triple with (say) a Screwfix 17315 *- but
that has a 13A fuse, which would probably blow if the water heater and
dishwasher both operated at the same time. Also, a triple would extend
further into the cabinet (unless mounted vertically) and wouldn't clear
the body of the waste disposer.

So I still think that the best bet is to install an additional single or
double surface mounted socket in close proximity to the existing one.
Each appliance can then draw up to 13A with impunity whenever it wants to.
--


If it's a 3Kw appliance, it would be better on a separate circuit
wired back to the CU rather than on the ring.

Oh come on. We'll be running new circuits for kettles next.

Alex

--
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Tim Watts writes:

On Monday 01 April 2013 20:14 Major Scott wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:


A double socket is rated at 20A max total

Surely there would be thousands of people plugging in two 3kW loads and
melting them.....


Apparantly not.

I'm sure Tim's right simply because I've seen the 20A quoted so many
times. But I'd love to know where it comes from. Is this figure in BS
1363?

Alex

--
Swish - Easy SFTP for Windows Explorer (http://www.swish-sftp.org)

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 23:53:34 +0100, Alexander Lamaison wrote:

Tim Watts writes:

On Monday 01 April 2013 20:14 Major Scott wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:


A double socket is rated at 20A max total

Surely there would be thousands of people plugging in two 3kW loads and
melting them.....


Apparantly not.

I'm sure Tim's right simply because I've seen the 20A quoted so many
times. But I'd love to know where it comes from. Is this figure in BS
1363?

How many (non-electrician) people will know not to stick two high powered devices in a double socket? Take a kitchen for example, where lots of things have heaters. Dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer, .....

So, they've made something which is unprotected by a fuse which can take only two thirds of the protection of the ring main fuse/breaker. How stupid is that?

--
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"Major Scott" writes:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 23:53:34 +0100, Alexander Lamaison
wrote:

Tim Watts writes:

On Monday 01 April 2013 20:14 Major Scott wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 18:31:04 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:


A double socket is rated at 20A max total

Surely there would be thousands of people plugging in two 3kW loads and
melting them.....


Apparantly not.

I'm sure Tim's right simply because I've seen the 20A quoted so many
times. But I'd love to know where it comes from. Is this figure in BS
1363?

How many (non-electrician) people will know not to stick two high
powered devices in a double socket? Take a kitchen for example, where
lots of things have heaters. Dishwasher, washing machine, tumble
dryer, .....

So, they've made something which is unprotected by a fuse which can
take only two thirds of the protection of the ring main fuse/breaker.
How stupid is that?

I think (the electricians will correct me if I'm wrong) the problem with
your statement is that 'take' is too imprecise. They're not
firecrackers. They don't get to 20A and pop. The 20A load would have
to be pulled continuosly for hours and hours before it mattered.

Instinctively, it seems dangerous, but if you have a think how you would
arrange for a 20A load that never turned off you'll see that it's pretty
difficult.

Alex

--
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