Jo wrote:


Arrrgh! I am sooo angry. Cheating students must call for the lowest sort
of scum.
Did he even know you were a student? Do you think students should be
treated differently to anybody else?

Yes he did know I was a student, because I said "I'm a skint student,
can you please give me a discount?" and he said "If you pay cash with
no receipt we can take the VAT off".

I think fleecing anyone is despicable but fleecing a hard up person is
more so!!

Jo

I hope you don't come anywhere near my business with your paranoid
insinuations. It looks like the guy has done a good job. It is standard
practise to use a lever to seperate the pads and push the pistons back
into the cylinders. You are also *not* insured to be in their workshop
near dangerous equipment.

Jo wrote:

I said "I'm a skint student,can you please give me a discount?"
and he said "If you pay cash with no receipt we can take the VAT off".

I think fleecing anyone is despicable but fleecing a hard up person is
more so!!

Did you pay the VAT, or fleece the taxpayers?

Adrian wrote:
Jo gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Thanks, here's another picture of them:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5119/brakepads2.jpg

Mmm. That one doesn't look too clever at all. See how the friction
material appears to be starting to separate from the back plate, and some
of the edges?

I take back my earlier comments. If t'were me, they'd be heading binwards.


Me too. And judging by te corrosion, I wouldn't think the calipers were
in a good state either. Probably took hours to unstick the buggers.

When I used to do this sort of stiff as almost a living, we eventually
found that the best thing to do was take the lot off, skim the discs,
strip the callipers and redo seals or replace as necessary, stick new
pads in and bleed them to eternity, that way the customer got good
brakes. that we could guarantee.



Arrrgh! I am sooo angry. Cheating students must call for the lowest sort
of scum.

Did he even know you were a student? Do you think students should be
treated differently to anybody else?

I've seen vile scams perpetrated on anyone who looks stupid enough to
accept them. Been done to me several times. I keep going back to
Marshall's, because by and large although they are not cheap, I have
found them scrupulous and workmanlike. And if its not right after, they
WILL fix it FOC.

But, old cars cost more to fix.They are *******s to get apart. I once
lived over a rally garage. Speed of maintenance is everything in
rallying. No nut wasn't locked, and no bolt was ever used twice. I used
to help myself to the scrap bin of second hand used bolts, with their
blessing.

BUT they knew that every single component could be removed precisily ina
guaranteed time. Because every nit was tightened with a torque wrench
to its proper setting, and the cars never had time to rust..the chief
mechanic got a 'mechanic of the rally' award for changing a Ford Escort
clutch in 17 miunutes lying upside down in the rain somewhere in
Wales..I would say 7-10 minutes for brake pads would be on the cards.

I've removed whole wheel hubs to get pads out on older cars.

Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

The pictures are too dark too see anything, the pads just look like black
shapes and no detail is visible, although on the second one you posted, it
looks like the edges of the abrasive part are 'rounded'.

85 quid's not bad for having front brakes done, and why get so uppity about
him wanting to save you some cash? - you would have given him an extra £20,
which he would then have handed over to the taxman, what's the point in
that?

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Andy Burns wrote:
Jo wrote:

I said "I'm a skint student,can you please give me a discount?"
and he said "If you pay cash with no receipt we can take the VAT off".

I think fleecing anyone is despicable but fleecing a hard up person is
more so!!

Did you pay the VAT, or fleece the taxpayers?

I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.

Jo

"Jo" wrote in message
...

Adrian wrote:
Jo gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

They look like they've got plenty of life left.

£30 for parts? What car?

£55 to change 'em? Depends where you are. In the SE, that's towards the
lower end of average for an hour's labour - which is not unreasonable.
For a little back-street place in the frozen wastelands ooop north, it
seems steep.

I live in Cambridge. He charged for 1.5 hours of labour and just the
brake pads were replaced.

Jo

You may have got off lightly too. Plenty of places seem to insist that you
need new discs as well...

S

AlanG wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:02:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

AlanG wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 05:15:53 -0700 (PDT), Jo
wrote:

Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!
You don't get a receipt and no proof of work done if anything goes
wrong
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Replacing pads depends also on the disc thickness. It wears too you
know. Quite possible to need a change at 5 or 6 mm depending on the
mechanical characteristics and wear. But even on a good disc I've been
recommended it should be done at a minimum of 2mm. Safety first.

On the pics they look borderline.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

A quick search pulled up this.
Reading it and looking at the pics should give you some idea.
Its rear pads but the principle is close enough.
http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.co...brake_pads.htm
Yes. Two points
- no pad material left is not the point at which the brakes are worn to
the point of needing replacement: as that article points out, less than
half the original thickness is where you start thinking about it. The
same goes for disks, Skimmed discs are no longer accepted, not because
they are not flat, but because most car brakes rely on a big chunk of
steel to absorb heat in a highs speed emergency stop. very few road cars
can do more than one or at most two stops from 100mph, in a row, or
three or four from 70mph.

- that site is a racing car site: see above for why brakes need to be
more than 'MOT specification'

I dug it up as an example because she was uneducated in these matters.

So I say, marginal call. If you drive slow, and not often, and dont use
the brakes much and are a skinflint, they would do a year. If not, they
would have scored the discs within a year. Costing a LOT more.

Yes.
I would have changed them

I just spent 400 quid on replacing two exhaust gaskets. Camper passed
its MOT but was blowing from the manifgold, and I was getting dopey and
a headache after a hundred miles or so.

Every single stud needed drilling, extracting and replacing. They say it
took them two man days. I actually believe them, too. I've done a bit of
that in my time.

I once sat with a spark eroder for 16 hours getting hardened steel
studs out of an aluminium honda cylinder head. Not nice


Those were the days. Not :-)
I think there is a more fundamental point at work here.

It has to do with a different mindset.

To may people a car is a thing with wheels that gets them from A to B
and that's it. Its 'safe' if it passes an MOT and its 'legal' if it has
the relevant paperwork to prove it, and is driven within a strict set of
guidelines that are nothing more than that. A strict set of guidelines.

Those of us who have been more deeply involved with cars, see things
differently. Its a machine, and engineering compromise, nowhere near as
safe as it could be, and only as safe as it needs to be, or can be, at
the price it's sold at. When we get into a car, we are acutely aware we
are in control of a lethal weapon that kills 3000 people a year, and
that its safety as such is eroded next time, and the only effect the
annual MOT has is that the grosser examples of cars that are not fit to
be on the road, are, by and large, kept off it. Good maintenance will
lift its safety margin considerably above the 'legal minimum'

When I test drove an XKR 'Silverstone', I did an emergency stop on an
empty road from 130mph. That car had what I call proper brakes. Not
racing brakes, but proper brakes for a road car. I believe Porsche has
similar. Brakes that really will stop you from autobahn speeds without
fading, again and again.

The jaguar double wishbone keeps you stable on an bumpy curve. In the
way a McPherson strut never will. Anyone who has driven a Triumph
Herald, vitesse or spitfire knows that whilst the front suspension is
almost best of class, the rear is undoubtedly the worst. Its
comfortable, but alarmingly unstable.

Where do you draw the line? Pads are cheap, and burnt out brakes are
something you wont discover until you really need them, and then its too
late.

I used to maintain my sports cars to a far higher standard than the MOT
required. I could feel wheel bearing play, and suspension play. You may
not normally need to hit a crisp packet in a fast swerve at 70mph, but
perhaps one day you may need to. I don't mess with car maintenance of
the brakes tyres and suspension or seat belts.. That's *all* that keeps
you on the road, finally. What price your life? or a major injury?

Phil L wrote:
Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me �30 for the
parts and �55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

The pictures are too dark too see anything, the pads just look like black
shapes and no detail is visible, although on the second one you posted, it
looks like the edges of the abrasive part are 'rounded'.

85 quid's not bad for having front brakes done, and why get so uppity about
him wanting to save you some cash? - you would have given him an extra �20,
which he would then have handed over to the taxman, what's the point in
that?

I'm beginning to wonder if the job was really necessary now.

If he wants to fiddle with his VAT then that is his decision, I'm not
here to police tax evaders. However, I raised it as a reason to
justify my impression that he was a dodgy guy, otherwise I'd just be
accused of being paranoid without due cause (there were other non
verbal cues but probably not worth elaborating on).

I'm a fairly perceptive judge of character even though I'm quite young
and obviously come across as a chump!!

I just wish I was more assertive and said "No" to the job when he
found incidental problems with the car while doing some other work on
it.

Jo

On 15/07/10 17:13, Cicero wrote:
"I'm a skint student, can you please give me a discount?" and he said "If
you pay cash with no receipt we can take the VAT off".

It seems that you're the 'shifty' character - asking an honest tradesman
to cheat the system for your benefit.

Asking for a discount is not a crime.

Jo wrote:
Phil L wrote:
Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage
said my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me ?30
for the parts and ?55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need
to pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate
the thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

The pictures are too dark too see anything, the pads just look like
black shapes and no detail is visible, although on the second one
you posted, it looks like the edges of the abrasive part are
'rounded'.

85 quid's not bad for having front brakes done, and why get so
uppity about him wanting to save you some cash? - you would have
given him an extra ?20, which he would then have handed over to the
taxman, what's the point in that?

I'm beginning to wonder if the job was really necessary now.

If he wants to fiddle with his VAT then that is his decision, I'm not
here to police tax evaders. However, I raised it as a reason to
justify my impression that he was a dodgy guy, otherwise I'd just be
accused of being paranoid without due cause (there were other non
verbal cues but probably not worth elaborating on).

I'm a fairly perceptive judge of character even though I'm quite young
and obviously come across as a chump!!

I just wish I was more assertive and said "No" to the job when he
found incidental problems with the car while doing some other work on
it.

Jo

You asked if you'd been ripped off, in my opinion, no you was'nt, £85 isn't
excessive.
Whether they needed replacing now or in the not-too-distant future or not is
not clear, but they don't last forever and you now know you have a full set
of working brakes, something you may not have realised until it was too
late, given your self confessed ignorance of mechanics and car maintenance

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

On 15/07/2010 16:26, Jo wrote:


Ste wrote:
On 15 July, 13:15, wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

It wasn't a tyre outfit was it? They are notorious for crooks trying
to do unnecessary work. But yes, the price in principle seems to be
within the reasonable range, although you may be able to get it
cheaper.



The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

They are worn, but not necessarily to the point of requiring
replacement. I assume these are the front pads. Starting thicknesses
vary, but are typically around 10mm or so, and under average yearly
mileage and typical driving styles pads can be expected to last a few
years from new. The legal minimum for pads if I recall correctly is
1.5mm, and realistically anything approaching 2mm requires imminent
replacement. If the pads are down to 4mm or less at the time of a
routine service, you'd expect a garage to discuss with the customer
the potential need for replacement before the next yearly service.

It's difficult to accurately gauge the thickness because of the
perspective and low resoluton of the picture. I'd say replacement may
have been premature. It would help if you could take another picture
of just the top-right pad, because that one looks the thinnest, and
from the opposite edge to the one now showing (i.e. from the same edge
as the bottom-right pad), and perhaps put the pound coin against the
pad material (so that the coin is sitting on one of the protrusions
from the side of the backing plate).

Thanks, here's another picture of them:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5119/brakepads2.jpg

Arrrgh! I am sooo angry. Cheating students must call for the lowest
sort of scum.

Ah that's better. They are a bit mank! It was probably the right thing
to do seeing what state they are in. I don't think the cost was that
high really, it takes me an hour to change my brake pads, but I do like
to stop for a cup of tea between each one


Jo

Spamlet wrote:
"Jo" wrote in message
...

Adrian wrote:
Jo gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).
Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.
They look like they've got plenty of life left.

£30 for parts? What car?

£55 to change 'em? Depends where you are. In the SE, that's towards the
lower end of average for an hour's labour - which is not unreasonable.
For a little back-street place in the frozen wastelands ooop north, it
seems steep.

I live in Cambridge. He charged for 1.5 hours of labour and just the
brake pads were replaced.

Jo

You may have got off lightly too. Plenty of places seem to insist that you
need new discs as well...


indeed. And then failing to replace the totally seized callipers so the
new disk lasted a mere 500 miles.

S

Jo wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder if the job was really necessary now.

If he wants to fiddle with his VAT then that is his decision, I'm not
here to police tax evaders. However, I raised it as a reason to
justify my impression that he was a dodgy guy,

There are plenty of dodgy doctors about believe me. You'll fit in well.


otherwise I'd just be
accused of being paranoid without due cause (there were other non
verbal cues but probably not worth elaborating on).

I'm a fairly perceptive judge of character even though I'm quite young
and obviously come across as a chump!!

I just wish I was more assertive and said "No" to the job when he
found incidental problems with the car while doing some other work on
it.


Yes now we know what sort of doctor you will make.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:26:18 -0700 (PDT), Jo
wrote:



Ste wrote:
On 15 July, 13:15, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

It wasn't a tyre outfit was it? They are notorious for crooks trying
to do unnecessary work. But yes, the price in principle seems to be
within the reasonable range, although you may be able to get it
cheaper.



The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

They are worn, but not necessarily to the point of requiring
replacement. I assume these are the front pads. Starting thicknesses
vary, but are typically around 10mm or so, and under average yearly
mileage and typical driving styles pads can be expected to last a few
years from new. The legal minimum for pads if I recall correctly is
1.5mm, and realistically anything approaching 2mm requires imminent
replacement. If the pads are down to 4mm or less at the time of a
routine service, you'd expect a garage to discuss with the customer
the potential need for replacement before the next yearly service.

It's difficult to accurately gauge the thickness because of the
perspective and low resoluton of the picture. I'd say replacement may
have been premature. It would help if you could take another picture
of just the top-right pad, because that one looks the thinnest, and
from the opposite edge to the one now showing (i.e. from the same edge
as the bottom-right pad), and perhaps put the pound coin against the
pad material (so that the coin is sitting on one of the protrusions
from the side of the backing plate).

Thanks, here's another picture of them:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5119/brakepads2.jpg

I would have changed them
He just saved your life and probably someone else's

Arrrgh! I am sooo angry. Cheating students must call for the lowest
sort of scum.

Driving a car with dodgy brakes is worse

Jo wrote:

"I'm a skint student, can you please give me a discount?" and he said "If
you pay cash with no receipt we can take the VAT off".

It seems that you're the 'shifty' character - asking an honest tradesman
to cheat the system for your benefit.

No, I asked a tradesman to give me a discount. I didn't ask him to
cheat the system.

You wanted £20 out of the guys pocket?

"Ste" wrote in message
...
On 15 July, 13:35, "John Whitworth"
wrote:

Second attempt was from a garage that I'd actually started to
trust. They
replaced my clutch as a result of a failed seal, which leaked loads
of
antifreeze into the bellhousing. Not sure how that happened - or if
it was
true.

That's actually more common than you may think!

Is it? I can understand a faulty seal allowing sump oil into the
bellhousing area, but not antifreeze. Unless he has a watercooled
clutch, of course........ (or, possibly, a defective intercooler which
is allowing antifreeze into the oil, in which case a failed seal is
the least of his problems).

Jo wrote:

I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.

Fair enough.

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they do
look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now whether
they were like that before they started removing them, but I wouldn't
fancy them on my car, and it doesn't sound like the price they charged
you was OTT, you'd probably have come away more skint if you'd gone to
one of the "big name" chains ...

On 15/07/2010 14:20, Jo wrote:

Adrian wrote:
gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

They look like they've got plenty of life left.

£30 for parts? What car?

£55 to change 'em? Depends where you are. In the SE, that's towards the
lower end of average for an hour's labour - which is not unreasonable.
For a little back-street place in the frozen wastelands ooop north, it
seems steep.

I live in Cambridge. He charged for 1.5 hours of labour and just the
brake pads were replaced.

I bought a Rover 45 when they went bust and had to have the pads and
disks changed at 30,00 miles. It was at the end of the day and they did
the job in less than 20 minutes. Can't remember what he charged, but I
thought it reasonable.

Dave

On 15 July, 13:15, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

I would say there was lots of wear left on those pads. I can't quite
see, but lots of pads these days have thin metal projecting fingers
that rub on the disk when the pads are worn right down. They make a
screeching noise when they contact the disk. It just an audible
warning.

Andy Burns wrote:
Jo wrote:

I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.

Fair enough.

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they do
look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now whether
they were like that before they started removing them, but I wouldn't
fancy them on my car, and it doesn't sound like the price they charged
you was OTT, you'd probably have come away more skint if you'd gone to
one of the "big name" chains ...


'While the car is on the ramps your shock absorbers have had it, I
repeat.......'

On 15 July, 17:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Jo wrote:
I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.

Fair enough.

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they do
look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now whether
they were like that before they started removing them, but I wouldn't
fancy them on my car, and it doesn't sound like the price they charged
you was OTT, you'd probably have come away more skint if you'd gone to
one of the "big name" chains ...

They are crumbled at the edges where he has used a screwdriver or
similar to prise them out.

On 15/07/2010 17:34, Reg wrote:
Jo wrote:

"I'm a skint student, can you please give me a discount?" and he said
"If
you pay cash with no receipt we can take the VAT off".

It seems that you're the 'shifty' character - asking an honest tradesman
to cheat the system for your benefit.

No, I asked a tradesman to give me a discount. I didn't ask him to
cheat the system.

You wanted £20 out of the guys pocket?

No he didn't, he wanted to negotiate on price. Haven't you ever asked
for a discount on anything? Good grief why are you picking on the poor
guy just for asking for a discount.

I don't ask anymore, if I'm in an independent place I demand one, never
been refused, even Specsavers will give a discount if you say you want one.

harry wrote:
On 15 July, 13:15, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

I would say there was lots of wear left on those pads. I can't quite
see, but lots of pads these days have thin metal projecting fingers
that rub on the disk when the pads are worn right down. They make a
screeching noise when they contact the disk. It just an audible
warning.

No that's the backing plates hitting the disks, a sign that you are
ruining the discs.

SOME cars USED to have copper wires embeded in the discs that lit a
light on the dash when they closed the circuit to the discs. Always
either corroding to a short, or wires falling off so they didn't work at
all. Not seem them recently.

Look a strip check of the brakes is a standard annual service thing. IF
the brakes are much below half worn, the questions has to be asked of
the customer 'how many miles do you so? when did you last have the
brakes relined?' because normally you would not want the pads to be less
that 2-3mm at the *next* service, which leaves a margin.

You SHOULD cehcek a cam belt every 50,000 miles and replace whether or
not its worn. You SHOULD drain the oil and fit a new filter every year.
You SHOULD drain the hydraulic fluid and replace it every 5 years, ditto
the cooling system. You SHOULD top up gear box and transmission every 5
years as well, even if there is no sign of a leak. You may also need to
lubricate things like racks and suspension joints every 5 years or so too.

These things are mostly never dome, so after ten years, things break.
Callipers corrode from water in the fluid. Cylinder heads and blocks
corrode because eh anti corrosion in the coolant is tired. Suspension
joints run dry and run out.

the cheapest way to run a car, is get one with a years MOT, and run it
till it fails an MOT or breaks. Then scarp it. The second cheapest way
is to get one a couole of years old, and maintain it and sell it when
its final warranty expires.

The third cheapest is a new car. The most expensive is to get a 5 year
-10 year old car, and fail to maintain it, and then have expensive bills
because its old, and been badly maintained.

The best of all is either a near scrapper, or a very old car that has
done very little mileage, having been taken to church once a week by an
old boy, who kept it in a garage, had it serviced, and finally died.

Those are worth maintaining properly.

On 15/07/2010 17:54, Cicero wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:21:29 -0700, Jo wrote:

No, I asked a tradesman to give me a discount. I didn't ask him to cheat
the system.

Very well then, you asked a tradesman to gift you a part of his wages
because you claim to be hard up but not too hard up to afford to run a
car.

Oh bull****. If you haven't asked for discounts you're paying over the
odds and are a mug. I've even got away with it a couple of times in
Sainsburys when I thought something was overpriced.

I'm better with people than anything mechanical.

I think the fact that you consider a person to be 'shifty' because he
suggests a way to give you the discount you asked for would suggest that
your people skills are no better than your mechanical skills.

No, it's shifty because he said he wouldn't put the trade through the
books. Not only shifty, but illegal as well.

Tekky wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Jo wrote:

I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.

Fair enough.

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they do
look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now whether
they were like that before they started removing them, but I wouldn't
fancy them on my car, and it doesn't sound like the price they charged
you was OTT, you'd probably have come away more skint if you'd gone to
one of the "big name" chains ...


'While the car is on the ramps your shock absorbers have had it, I
repeat.......'

I have seen many a car with obviously failed shocks, kangaroo hopping
down the roads. The drivers either don't notice, or don't care.

I overtake them as swiftly as possible. They frighten me to death. I
know what a broken shock can do.

harry wrote:
On 15 July, 17:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Jo wrote:
I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.
Fair enough.

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they do
look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now whether
they were like that before they started removing them, but I wouldn't
fancy them on my car, and it doesn't sound like the price they charged
you was OTT, you'd probably have come away more skint if you'd gone to
one of the "big name" chains ...

They are crumbled at the edges where he has used a screwdriver or
similar to prise them out.

Jemmy. The fact that he neded to do that shows some fairly bad callipers
as well.

Jo gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Mmm. That one doesn't look too clever at all. See how the friction
material appears to be starting to separate from the back plate, and
some of the edges?

I know they used a vise, took a hammer and a 0.5m lever of some sort to
it to separate two parts into the four in the photograph.

Eh?

Those are four pads. One on the inside, one on the outside of each front
brake.

Did he even know you were a student? Do you think students should be
treated differently to anybody else?

Yes he did know I was a student, because I said "I'm a skint student,
can you please give me a discount?" and he said "If you pay cash with no
receipt we can take the VAT off".

So hardly a "shifty offer", then - but more an acceptance of your request
for a discount...

the-sbray has brought this to us :
On Jul 15, 1:15*pm, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

No they are not worn. Those pads have 1000's of miles left.

They are worn, but not worn out. Doing my own servicing I would have a
set in readiness to go on and be keeping a close eye on them. If some
else does your servicing they would be correct to suggest fitting new,
rather than letting them run.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Andy Burns gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they do
look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now whether
they were like that before they started removing them

If they weren't, but needed levering out, then the calipers were WELL
overdue for some TLC anyway.

Stupid question, Jo - have you had the brake fluid changed in the last
two years?

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

I would say there was lots of wear left on those pads. I can't quite
see, but lots of pads these days have thin metal projecting fingers
that rub on the disk when the pads are worn right down. They make a
screeching noise when they contact the disk. It just an audible
warning.

No that's the backing plates hitting the disks, a sign that you are
ruining the discs.

Not necessarily.

SOME cars USED to have copper wires embeded in the discs that lit a
light on the dash when they closed the circuit to the discs. Always
either corroding to a short, or wires falling off so they didn't work at
all. Not seem them recently.

That's because they've largely been replaced by the audible warning harry
describes - since the wiring to the pad wear sensors is always in a right
old state.

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

I think there is a more fundamental point at work here.

It has to do with a different mindset.

To may people a car is a thing with wheels that gets them from A to B
and that's it. Its 'safe' if it passes an MOT and its 'legal' if it has
the relevant paperwork to prove it, and is driven within a strict set of
guidelines that are nothing more than that. A strict set of guidelines.

Those of us who have been more deeply involved with cars, see things
differently. Its a machine, and engineering compromise, nowhere near as
safe as it could be, and only as safe as it needs to be, or can be, at
the price it's sold at. When we get into a car, we are acutely aware we
are in control of a lethal weapon that kills 3000 people a year, and
that its safety as such is eroded next time, and the only effect the
annual MOT has is that the grosser examples of cars that are not fit to
be on the road, are, by and large, kept off it. Good maintenance will
lift its safety margin considerably above the 'legal minimum'

Indeed. The MOT is a bare minimum, not the once-a-year highpoint many
seem to regard it as.

AlanG has brought this to us :
Replacing pads depends also on the disc thickness. It wears too you
know. Quite possible to need a change at 5 or 6 mm depending on the
mechanical characteristics and wear. But even on a good disc I've been
recommended it should be done at a minimum of 2mm. Safety first.

New pads will have around 10mm thickness of friction material on them.
Those pads look to have around 2.5 to 3mm left and depending on car
need to be changed at around 2mm.


On the pics they look borderline.

They look to be just on the comfortable side of borderline to me. Were
I the mechanic I would also have recommended fitting new, for safety.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

The Natural Philosopher explained :
I did that once, and the last 50 yards were..interesting. Almost no brakes
left.

Yes, front pads were almost worn out. Discs were not to hot either. Or rather
they were red hot nearly by the time I had.

New pads would not make any difference, unless they are down to metal.
Your disks are supposed to get hot, they convert energy to heat via the
process of friction.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On 15/07/2010 13:15, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo

If they were front brake pads then it would be prudent and possibly save
you money to have them changed, unless you intend to part with the car
within the next 3000 miles or so. The price quoted may well be ball park
these days.

j

On 15/07/2010 13:52, martin wrote:
On 15/07/2010 13:15, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Na, loads of wear left in them

Those would do me a couple of years of driving

Me too. I was taught to drive using my gearbox to slow down, rather than
depend on the brakes.

Dave

dave wrote:
On 15/07/2010 13:52, martin wrote:
On 15/07/2010 13:15, Jo wrote:
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Na, loads of wear left in them

Those would do me a couple of years of driving

Me too. I was taught to drive using my gearbox to slow down, rather than
depend on the brakes.

Dave

What costs most, pads or a new gearbox?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tekky wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Jo wrote:

I paid with cheque. So yes I paid the VAT.

Fair enough.

Regardless of how or little the pads were actually worn down, they
do look rather crumbled away at the edges, impossible to say now
whether they were like that before they started removing them, but
I wouldn't fancy them on my car, and it doesn't sound like the
price they charged you was OTT, you'd probably have come away more
skint if you'd gone to one of the "big name" chains ...


'While the car is on the ramps your shock absorbers have had it, I
repeat.......'

I have seen many a car with obviously failed shocks, kangaroo hopping
down the roads. The drivers either don't notice, or don't care.

I overtake them as swiftly as possible.

dennis will be along shortly!

Gio wrote:

If for example you are expecting to drive say 20,000 miles before
the next service then it would be beneficial to have them changed or say you
live in a hilly area.

OP lives in Cambridge. A bit flat.

Andy

Tekky gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Those would do me a couple of years of driving

Me too. I was taught to drive using my gearbox to slow down, rather
than depend on the brakes.

What costs most, pads or a new gearbox?

If your gear changing skills are that poor, have you considered having
driving lessons or buying an automatic?

In article
s.com, Jo scribeth thus
Hello,

My car was taken to a garage for an unrelated problem. The garage said
my brakes were worn and needed replacing. They charged me £30 for the
parts and £55 for labour (excluding VAT).

The guy seemed shifty - he said if I paid with cash I wouldn't need to
pay VAT!

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8355/brakediscs.jpg

Are these brakes worn and were his charges reasonable? I estimate the
thickness of the abrasive portion of the parts to be 5mm thick.

Sorry for my ignorance on the subject, I'm a medical student!

Thanks.

Jo


Right.. having read thru most all of the comments hereon and seen the
later pictures I reckon that if you were my daughter I'd have given you
the money to have had this done if you were that hard up..

As some said there might have been a few more miles in the pads, but
they didn't look that good at all. I would not want them on any car I
drove, and/or coming at me thanks;!.

And you'll never know where you might need them in a hurry. I had mine
severely tested earlier outside the Orchard Tea rooms in Grantchester
where a lady in a heavily laden 4 trak absolutely slammed on her brakes
as she went past there. I managed to stop behind fortunately leaving a
decent gap .. she then proceeded to put her car in reverse and started
coming back toward me trying to reveres in their entrance at some
speed!.. BTW does your horn works as well;?, never know when you'll
need it either;!..


I think for that price, and for Cambridge, one of the more expensive UK
places to live, was very reasonable. There are very few good mechanics
around. If you don't trust this firm go to where I take our Two cars
C&S Motors underneath the railway arches in Coldhams lane sort of
opposite the Beehive centre and shopping estate and they have always
been reasonable, sometimes too cheap for what they do!. Mind you don't
expect a dolly bird on reception dispensing coffee etc, if you want one
there you have to make it yourself and make them one too.

Don't be too worried re ignorance on car matters. I don't think any one
of my eldest daughters boyfriends knew anything about cars apart from
where to put the petrol, these days if you asked them what an internal
combustion engine was they'd prolly think it was to do with old steam
traction engines.

Not that surprising nowadays as cars for the greater part are getting
more difficult to work on what with the implementation of so much in the
way of electronics etc and specialised diagnostic equipment needed..

Don't expect running a car to be a cheap exercise..Med student or
not..

No, all in a OK result for you in my estimation...
--
Tony Sayer