Rod wrote:

It might work in the sense of making the polish soft enough. But I would
not wish the smell to pervade the house - and would prefer the
(different-but-still-strong) smell of real turpentine.

One of our school punishments was to polish dormitory floors with wax
polish and a very heavy buffer. Standard paraffin was added to soften
that when it got too thick. Horrible smell for days after.

If it does not cause any problems, have you considered adding a few
drops of lavender oil?

Lemon or orange oil are other possible additives.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
Samantha Booth wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message m...
wrote:
Samantha Booth wrote:
"Samantha Booth" wrote in message
...
I have been watching "How Clean Is Your House". In the programme
they melted in the microwave some Beeswax to polish some old
furniture. It can be heated over a pan of hot water too they said.

I ordered some from eBay and have a problem.

When I do that and leave it to go cool it goes rock hard. What do
I need to add to it to make sure the beeswax stays soft so I can
use it. I am sure they added some kind of oil to it?? Maybe wrong
but they said it was the best way to polish old furniture.


Thanks Sam
Brilliant thanks. Sounds like that's the one. Will give it a whirl.
I don't know if its cheaper to buy it ready done never thought of
that. Just liked the idea of using a raw beeswax and doing it
myself really. What company do ready made stuff?

Thanks again you peeps xxx

Screwfix sell it, I forget the brand.

Might be worth consulting Mrs Beeton online, ISTR her offering a few
recipes for beeswax polish with varying properties.

Or you could just go to a supermarket & buy a product developed by a
knowledgable & experienced chemist in a modern lab.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Do you have PMT today?

No, just a qualification as an approved trainer for The British Institute
of Cleaning Science.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


So in those years long gone by using the likes of vinegar, salt, water, and
baking powder was fruitless was it. I don't think so. They may not have any
scientific merit but they worked and still work today. There are many people
who prefer the old fashioned methods and just because you discredit it
doesn't give it any less merit in my book. I don't like Tesco products
because of my circumstances with my daughter so I have to use other methods
and having used them I see no difference in using modern canned methods. I
can unblock my drain with baking powder salt and vinegar. You may use Mr.
Muscle or similar, yours costs £3 mine £1. They both have the same effect
and I see no difference. Not all of us can use bought products from Tesco.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:58:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 21 Jan 2009 12:10:47 GMT, Huge wrote:

Dean Inge he say "There are two kinds of fool. One says 'This is old,
and therefore good', and the other says 'this is new, and therefore
better'."

That is wonderful.

As for beeswax polish we use "Wood Silk" a bees wax and oils polish in an
aerosol can. The modern convience of being avialable in the supermarket
and being easy to apply but doesn't have those horrible silicones or
require messing about with hot wax and turps. Wood really does come up
well with it.

We do have a can of Mr Sheen, it's used to lubricate curtain tracks or
poles nothing else and most definately not "polishing". It's terrible
stuff, if repeatedly used it builds up to an uneven hard misty layer.

That's the "Sheen" mister. ;-)

Derek

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 21 Jan, 12:00, Stephen Howard wrote:

You'll get better and quicker results with a professionally made
polish, such as those sold by Liberon or Renaissance.

I'd agree with the recommendation to use these (esp. Liberon) for
initial finishing work on new cabinetry. I still prefer beeswax for
maintenance and cleaning use, particularly as most of my high-end work
is repro in oak.

Renaissance (read Wikipedia) is an oddity though, as it is a different
wax and not just a different solvent. I know there are people who
swear by it on wood, but I can't say I've ever seen the point. Best
thing for metals though.

These polishes tend to be thinner ( they use better solvents and have
additives that keep the mixture stable )

For Briwax, there's also the issue that UK-spec wax uses toluene,
whilst US-spec wax doesn't and isn't thought to be such a good wax.

Interesting that all the hard natural waxes are virtually insoluble, but
can be finely dispersed in the softer waxes. With toluene polish the
whole thing goes off so quickly that the hard particles remain small
enough to be hand-buffable but, in slower solvents, they form larger
clumps that have no shine.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
....
Beeswax may well provide a pleasant finish, but it gives a very poor level
of surface protection compared to a modern varnish or laquer. Try putting
a hot cup of tea on a table with a wax finish...

I generally put a cup into a saucer. However, protecting the surface from
hot crockery is what table mats and trivets are for.

Colin Bignell

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:

Absolutely. That programme makes me laugh. Cleaning things with vinegar
&
baking soda FFS. They have absolutely no bloody idea about cleaning,
they
have just jumped on the green, natural is best bollox bandwagon. They
need to pop down to Tesco & buy some decent products.

Modern polishes, hard surface cleaners & detergent sanitizers leave any
of
these old wives tale cleaners in the dust. Vinegar & baking soda clean
bugger all.


When you don't have any "Silver Dip" to hand, ali foil, boiling water,
salt
and baking soda do work a treat on silver (plated) items.

Ali foil, water and a drop of fairy liquid works well, no need for the rest.

Samantha Booth wrote:

Do you have PMT today?

No, just a qualification as an approved trainer for The British
Institute of Cleaning Science.

So in those years long gone by using the likes of vinegar, salt,
water, and baking powder was fruitless was it.

Probably, but they had bugger all else. Thats why disease was rife. They
developed decent detergents & sanitizers as soon as they knew how.

I don't think so. They
may not have any scientific merit but they worked and still work
today.

If they had no scientific merit - how did they work then? 'Natural
goodness'? 'Cosmic Vibrations'? 'Ley Lines'?

Look up 'Surfactants' then you might understand how detergents work. Baking
powder salt and vinegar do not possess the same properties.

SNIP

I can unblock my drain
with baking powder salt and vinegar. You may use Mr. Muscle or
similar, yours costs £3 mine £1. They both have the same effect and I
see no difference. Not all of us can use bought products from Tesco.

Complete and utter bollox. You simply cannot unblock a drain with baking
powder salt and vinegar. You could make a cake or season your fish & chips,
but there is no way those items can dissolve a typical drain blockage.

BTW, I don't bake cakes using sodium hydroxide, neither do I use sulphuric
acid on my chips.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 21 Jan 2009 12:10:47 GMT, Huge wrote:

Dean Inge he say "There are two kinds of fool. One says 'This is old,
and therefore good', and the other says 'this is new, and therefore
better'."

That is wonderful.

As for beeswax polish we use "Wood Silk" a bees wax and oils polish in an
aerosol can. The modern convience of being avialable in the supermarket
and being easy to apply but doesn't have those horrible silicones or
require messing about with hot wax and turps. Wood really does come up
well with it.

We do have a can of Mr Sheen, it's used to lubricate curtain tracks or
poles nothing else and most definately not "polishing". It's terrible
stuff, if repeatedly used it builds up to an uneven hard misty layer.

get silicone spray instead. Its the cats pyjamas for plastic-on-plastic
bearings.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
Samantha Booth wrote:

Do you have PMT today?

No, just a qualification as an approved trainer for The British
Institute of Cleaning Science.

So in those years long gone by using the likes of vinegar, salt,
water, and baking powder was fruitless was it.

Probably, but they had bugger all else. Thats why disease was rife. They
developed decent detergents & sanitizers as soon as they knew how.

I don't think so. They
may not have any scientific merit but they worked and still work
today.

If they had no scientific merit - how did they work then? 'Natural
goodness'? 'Cosmic Vibrations'? 'Ley Lines'?

Look up 'Surfactants' then you might understand how detergents work.
Baking powder salt and vinegar do not possess the same properties.

SNIP

I can unblock my drain
with baking powder salt and vinegar. You may use Mr. Muscle or
similar, yours costs £3 mine £1. They both have the same effect and I
see no difference. Not all of us can use bought products from Tesco.

Complete and utter bollox. You simply cannot unblock a drain with baking
powder salt and vinegar. You could make a cake or season your fish &
chips, but there is no way those items can dissolve a typical drain
blockage.

BTW, I don't bake cakes using sodium hydroxide, neither do I use sulphuric
acid on my chips.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


I am sure even you knew what I meant about scientific merit. What I mean was
they may not be today's choice when there are other scientific products out
there. But I think you already new that. Salt is an abrasive and as such
works to cut through grease. Vinegar does much the same. I use them every
day so I know what they do in my house. I don't need to look anything you
suggest up, thanks.

Well I managed to unblock my sink with them ingredients. It cut through the
grease and my sinks been running free since. While they may not unblock it
from a cloth stuck down the hole, neither will MrMuscle. I use what I use
and no matter.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
Samantha Booth wrote:

Do you have PMT today?

No, just a qualification as an approved trainer for The British
Institute of Cleaning Science.

So in those years long gone by using the likes of vinegar, salt,
water, and baking powder was fruitless was it.

Probably, but they had bugger all else. Thats why disease was rife. They
developed decent detergents & sanitizers as soon as they knew how.

I don't think so. They
may not have any scientific merit but they worked and still work
today.

If they had no scientific merit - how did they work then? 'Natural
goodness'? 'Cosmic Vibrations'? 'Ley Lines'?

Look up 'Surfactants' then you might understand how detergents work.
Baking powder salt and vinegar do not possess the same properties.

SNIP

I can unblock my drain
with baking powder salt and vinegar. You may use Mr. Muscle or
similar, yours costs £3 mine £1. They both have the same effect and I
see no difference. Not all of us can use bought products from Tesco.

Complete and utter bollox. You simply cannot unblock a drain with baking
powder salt and vinegar. You could make a cake or season your fish &
chips, but there is no way those items can dissolve a typical drain
blockage.

BTW, I don't bake cakes using sodium hydroxide, neither do I use sulphuric
acid on my chips.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Disease is rife today too Dave.

Anyway your manner of posting I can do without I find you too aggressive
with your Bollox talk and Bugger this and that.
I will leave it there thanks and bid you farewell.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
S Viemeister wrote:
Samantha Booth wrote:

I have been watching "How Clean Is Your House". In the programme
they melted in the microwave some Beeswax to polish some old
furniture. It can be heated over a pan of hot water too they said.

I ordered some from eBay and have a problem.

When I do that and leave it to go cool it goes rock hard. What do I
need to add to it to make sure the beeswax stays soft so I can use
it. I am sure they added some kind of oil to it?? Maybe wrong but
they said it was the best way to polish old furniture.


My Dad used turpentine, mixed in after removing the beeswax from the
heat.

Sheila

Yup. Isnt it cheaper to buy ready mixed beeswax polish now though?

Absolutely. That programme makes me laugh. Cleaning things with vinegar
& baking soda FFS. They have absolutely no bloody idea about cleaning,
they have just jumped on the green, natural is best bollox bandwagon.
They need to pop down to Tesco & buy some decent products.

Modern polishes, hard surface cleaners & detergent sanitizers leave any of
these old wives tale cleaners in the dust. Vinegar & baking soda clean
bugger all.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Well, I'm as sceptical as you regarding most of the advice, but after 10
years of trying to get rid of an embarassing encrustation in the upstairs
loo with all kinds of commercial products (including the black Harpic
varient which claims to include HCL ) to no avail, I bunged 500ml of
distilled vinegar down it & it worked a treat after 24 hours (I'd left some
of the other stuff for days). All that was left was some sediment which
flushed away. I was on the verge of replacing the bowl.

Bramble-stick

Samantha Booth wrote:

SNIP

I am sure even you knew what I meant about scientific merit. What I
mean was they may not be today's choice when there are other
scientific products out there.

You seem to think the word scientific is evil in some way?


But I think you already new that. Salt
is an abrasive and as such works to cut through grease. Vinegar does
much the same.

Define the phrase 'cut through grease'. Neither salt nor vinegar are able
to emulsify grease.


I use them every day so I know what they do in my
house. I don't need to look anything you suggest up, thanks.

There are none so blind etc...


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Samantha Booth wrote:
SNIP


Disease is rife today too Dave.

Errm no. Not in 1st world countries it isn't.

Anyway your manner of posting I can do without I find you too
aggressive with your Bollox talk and Bugger this and that.
I will leave it there thanks and bid you farewell.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about and therefore
can't continue the discussion.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
Samantha Booth wrote:
SNIP


Disease is rife today too Dave.

Errm no. Not in 1st world countries it isn't.

Anyway your manner of posting I can do without I find you too
aggressive with your Bollox talk and Bugger this and that.
I will leave it there thanks and bid you farewell.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about and therefore
can't continue the discussion.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Thought you would take that stance, comical really and entirely predictable.
I just don't like to argue with people who's arguments are made up of the
words bollox and bugger as their way of bullying their way through the
argument.

Lets face it you get your arse kicked on here plenty of times without me
adding to it. Prove to me that what you use are better for me and my family
than what I use. You cant.

I knew as soon as I made my last comment you would be on here claiming a
victory late at night, what a sad little life you lead. Absolutely nothing
you have said has convinced me to divert to Tesco and buy chemicals.
Thousands of people stick to their old fashioned methods and they aren't in
hospital rife with disease.

Anyway for the record YOU HAVE WON. Ooo is that OK for ya? Make you feel
like a man? Please

Samantha Booth wrote:



Thought you would take that stance, comical really and entirely
predictable. I just don't like to argue with people who's arguments
are made up of the words bollox and bugger as their way of bullying
their way through the argument.

And in the paragraph below you use the word 'arse'. So arse is acceptable
to use, but bollox and bugger aren't?

Lets face it you get your arse kicked on here plenty of times without
me adding to it. Prove to me that what you use are better for me and
my family than what I use. You cant.

I can, having a basic knowledge of chemistry, but you refused to look up how
surfactants work on the grounds that;
I use them every day so I know what they do in my
house. I don't need to look anything you suggest up, thanks.

No doubt you can provide some evidence that your greenwash, natural
'chemicals' (but we won't call them that, because chemicals are bad and have
something to do with that nasty science thingy) work?

Since non of them are able to emulsify grease that might be difficult. Can
you explain how salt 'cuts through grease' for example?

I knew as soon as I made my last comment you would be on here
claiming a victory late at night, what a sad little life you lead.

Not as sad as people with no knowledge of chemistry who swallow greenwash
rubbish whole.

Absolutely nothing you have said has convinced me to divert to Tesco
and buy chemicals.

You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid, sodium
bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other chemicals
'bad'?

Anyway for the record YOU HAVE WON. Ooo is that OK for ya? Make you
feel like a man? Please

You sound just like Stewie out of Family Guy.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?

Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?

Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.

For the *majority* of domestic issues, Sam is right that elbow grease and
something acid or alkali will do the job - the only exceptions might be very
greasy stuff that needs a detergent or soap (crockery and clothes and hair).
In these situations most stuff is hype as DP says and all the bottles
contain either something acidic (kitchen dirt) or something alkali (bathroom
dirt) with different smells and packaging. There are occasions (badly
blocked drain etc) where, if the bottle doesn't have a skull and crossbones
on it you may as well not bother. Most drains are not that badly blocked
though. The bad ones are probably the ones TMH gets called out to, to be
fair.

Of course TMH is right that they are all chemicals but DP right that one is
less worried by chemicals that are eaten on a regular basis!

I find similar with cement based products - floor cement, tile cement,
polystyrene coving cement, fillers. More interchangeable than the
manufacturers would have you believe!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?

Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've
been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.

For the *majority* of domestic issues, Sam is right that elbow grease and
something acid or alkali will do the job - the only exceptions might be
very greasy stuff that needs a detergent or soap (crockery and clothes and
hair). In these situations most stuff is hype as DP says and all the
bottles contain either something acidic (kitchen dirt) or something alkali
(bathroom dirt)

or even the other way round! Ooops.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On 21 Jan, 09:46, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:
From my own experience, IMHO, there is no question in terms of end
product that beeswax polish will produce a better protection and
finish than Mr Sheen

But you are talking about three different applications here. *Surface
finish, surface protection & surface maintenance.

Beeswax may well provide a pleasant finish, but it gives a very poor level
of surface protection compared to a modern varnish or laquer. *Try putting a
hot cup of tea on a table with a wax finish.

Mr Sheen is a maintenance product, not a final finish. *Beeswax is
unsuitable for a quick wipe over to remove dust & isnt multi surface.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

DearMHN
You are quite right. I was not considering quick wipes or laquers.
Clearly for most modern furniture Mr Sheen is suitable. I was
presupposing it was quality furniture perhaps because one would not
use beeswax on much else.
Chris

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?

Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.

Yup. Don't but Mr Muscle. Buy caustic soda.
Don't but vinegar, buy brick acid.


You can then make your own soap for chip fat and caustic soda.

Bob Mannix wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?
Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.

For the *majority* of domestic issues, Sam is right that elbow grease and
something acid or alkali will do the job - the only exceptions might be very
greasy stuff that needs a detergent or soap (crockery and clothes and hair).

Caustic soda turns grease into soap. And ultimately degrades even hair.

All these 'domestic' chemicals are merely weaker acids and alkalis.

I.e. vinegar is a weak acid that will, in time, and after gallons, do
what a cupful of sulphuric acid will, tio limesacale..

Sodium bicarbonate is a really weak alkali. It probably is more useful
in that it produces a gas.

Bleach is a bit better, being a bit harsher.

But why not go to the horses mouth and use caustic?



In these situations most stuff is hype as DP says and all the bottles
contain either something acidic (kitchen dirt) or something alkali (bathroom
dirt) with different smells and packaging. There are occasions (badly
blocked drain etc) where, if the bottle doesn't have a skull and crossbones
on it you may as well not bother. Most drains are not that badly blocked
though. The bad ones are probably the ones TMH gets called out to, to be
fair.

Of course TMH is right that they are all chemicals but DP right that one is
less worried by chemicals that are eaten on a regular basis!


Who is worried?

I find similar with cement based products - floor cement, tile cement,
polystyrene coving cement, fillers. More interchangeable than the
manufacturers would have you believe!


Understanding why they differ is useful.

Bramble-Stick wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
S Viemeister wrote:
Samantha Booth wrote:
I have been watching "How Clean Is Your House". In the programme
they melted in the microwave some Beeswax to polish some old
furniture. It can be heated over a pan of hot water too they said.

I ordered some from eBay and have a problem.

When I do that and leave it to go cool it goes rock hard. What do I
need to add to it to make sure the beeswax stays soft so I can use
it. I am sure they added some kind of oil to it?? Maybe wrong but
they said it was the best way to polish old furniture.


My Dad used turpentine, mixed in after removing the beeswax from the
heat.

Sheila
Yup. Isnt it cheaper to buy ready mixed beeswax polish now though?
Absolutely. That programme makes me laugh. Cleaning things with vinegar
& baking soda FFS. They have absolutely no bloody idea about cleaning,
they have just jumped on the green, natural is best bollox bandwagon.
They need to pop down to Tesco & buy some decent products.

Modern polishes, hard surface cleaners & detergent sanitizers leave any of
these old wives tale cleaners in the dust. Vinegar & baking soda clean
bugger all.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Well, I'm as sceptical as you regarding most of the advice, but after 10
years of trying to get rid of an embarassing encrustation in the upstairs
loo with all kinds of commercial products (including the black Harpic
varient which claims to include HCL ) to no avail, I bunged 500ml of
distilled vinegar down it & it worked a treat after 24 hours (I'd left some
of the other stuff for days). All that was left was some sediment which
flushed away. I was on the verge of replacing the bowl.

Bramble-stick


I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Branded products
are often just over-priced basic chemicals but it's easier to find a
kettle descaler than phosphoric acid, and small amounts of anything are
always expensive.
Keeping some basic chemicals around the house is useful, whatever your
philosophy:
Strong alkali, caustic soda (although washing soda is adequate for most
jobs).
Strong acid, sulphamic (comes in crystals, safe to handle, but still ph1)
Solvents, white spirit, meths, isopropanol.
I exclude hydrochloric acid and ammonia, both of which blow your head
off with the fumes before you've actually used them for anything, and
don't do anything the above can't. I'm going to duck now before someone
tells me brick acid is a must-have, and I must admit that I've never
tried sulphamic on cement stained brickwork.

On 22 Jan, 10:17, Stuart Noble wrote:

Branded products are often just over-priced basic chemicals

Except when they're _cheaper_. Domestic cleaners are sold in
convenient quantities, at a price that's affordable (maybe excessive,
but not ridiculous or it won't sell) and are in purities adequate for
the task.

Industrial chemicals are often expensive (you're not usually spending
your own money), sold by outfits that scorn retail, come in quantities
that need a truck to deliver and may be of exceptional purity that you
don't need, but do pay for. Don't rule out "Mr Muscle" kitchen
cleaner, as you can't do much that's better, cheaper or more
convenient, even in a lab.

Best of all though tends to be farmers' shops. Bulk, simple chemicals,
reasonable purity and price, and a quantity that's a useful size. Best
place you'll find for NaOH, conc. H2SO4 etc.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:48:55 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 21 Jan, 12:00, Stephen Howard wrote:

You'll get better and quicker results with a professionally made
polish, such as those sold by Liberon or Renaissance.

I'd agree with the recommendation to use these (esp. Liberon) for
initial finishing work on new cabinetry. I still prefer beeswax for
maintenance and cleaning use, particularly as most of my high-end work
is repro in oak.

Renaissance (read Wikipedia) is an oddity though, as it is a different
wax and not just a different solvent. I know there are people who
swear by it on wood, but I can't say I've ever seen the point. Best
thing for metals though.

These polishes tend to be thinner ( they use better solvents and have
additives that *keep the mixture stable )

For Briwax, there's also the issue that UK-spec wax uses toluene,
whilst US-spec wax doesn't and isn't thought to be such a good wax.

Are they still using toluene? It's been removed from the
once-legendary Evo-Stik and it's now not nearly as effective as it
used to be - I would imagine every other product that uses this
solvent would be similarly affected.

Regards,


--
Steve ( out in the sticks )
Email: Take time to reply: timefrom_usenet{at}gmx.net

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?

Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.


Wise words.

Modern science has brought us rivers and watercourses that are polluted
with dioxins, one of the most toxic groups of chemicals ever known, and
the even more insidious chemicals that mimic various hormones, and are
blamed for significantly reducing male fertility.

Meanwhile, traditional chemicals have a long track record and, used in
the right way, do the job just as well as they always did.

The problem is one of education. The usage of traditional chemicals was
passed down from parents to children. That's just another thing that
doesn't get passed down anymore.

Instead of knowledge of what chemicals do, and do not, and how they
should be used, and should not, all that is getting passed down is
misplaced loyalty to various brands, based on the quality (rarely) and
quantity (more often) of the advertising that goes with them.

So instead of using inexpensive, safe chemicals that do the job, people
buy expensive chemicals that are no more effective, often less, and
bring with them a lot of unwanted hazards.

It is true that some modern branded chemicals are effective. But few of
them have the long safety record of traditional chemicals. The issues
of toxic dioxins and hormonal changes are not going to go away anytime
soon.

What I find interesting is the comparison with the USA, where kitchens
are less dependent on the modern chemicals we see here and rely more on
old-fashioned products based on traditional chemicals. For example,
white vinegar is a very widely used kitchen cleaner and disinfectant,
either in its basic form or as the main ingredient of an old-fashioned
product.

Where I do agree there has been substantial progress is in the area of
industrial chemicals. But bringing these technological advances into
the home is something that needs more care than is generally shown.

Stuart Noble wrote:

I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Branded products
are often just over-priced basic chemicals but it's easier to find a
kettle descaler than phosphoric acid, and small amounts of anything are
always expensive.
Keeping some basic chemicals around the house is useful, whatever your
philosophy:
Strong alkali, caustic soda (although washing soda is adequate for most
jobs).
Strong acid, sulphamic (comes in crystals, safe to handle, but still ph1)
Solvents, white spirit, meths, isopropanol.
I exclude hydrochloric acid and ammonia, both of which blow your head
off with the fumes before you've actually used them for anything,

Rubbish.

Nothing beats ammonia for wood bending either..


and
don't do anything the above can't. I'm going to duck now before someone
tells me brick acid is a must-have, and I must admit that I've never
tried sulphamic on cement stained brickwork.

Brick acid is simply a cheap way to get a pretty strong acid.

Bruce wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?
Well, we know these are at least fairly safe for humans since they've been
used in cooking for many a year.

Commercial products will add all sorts of things - colours, perfumes etc
etc which aren't necessary to the product's effectiveness but will add to
the price. And it's quite possible some of these could irritate someone
prone to asthma or allergies etc.

The whole domestic cleaner market is based on advertising hype and only a
tiny amount of science. I'm amazed you haven't found this in practice.

Once you move to commercial cleaners things may be different.


Wise words.

Modern science has brought us rivers and watercourses that are polluted
with dioxins, one of the most toxic groups of chemicals ever known, and
the even more insidious chemicals that mimic various hormones, and are
blamed for significantly reducing male fertility.

Meanwhile, traditional chemicals have a long track record and, used in
the right way, do the job just as well as they always did.

The problem is one of education. The usage of traditional chemicals was
passed down from parents to children. That's just another thing that
doesn't get passed down anymore.

Instead of knowledge of what chemicals do, and do not, and how they
should be used, and should not, all that is getting passed down is
misplaced loyalty to various brands, based on the quality (rarely) and
quantity (more often) of the advertising that goes with them.

So instead of using inexpensive, safe chemicals that do the job, people
buy expensive chemicals that are no more effective, often less, and
bring with them a lot of unwanted hazards.

It is true that some modern branded chemicals are effective. But few of
them have the long safety record of traditional chemicals. The issues
of toxic dioxins and hormonal changes are not going to go away anytime
soon.

What I find interesting is the comparison with the USA, where kitchens
are less dependent on the modern chemicals we see here and rely more on
old-fashioned products based on traditional chemicals. For example,
white vinegar is a very widely used kitchen cleaner and disinfectant,
either in its basic form or as the main ingredient of an old-fashioned
product.

Where I do agree there has been substantial progress is in the area of
industrial chemicals. But bringing these technological advances into
the home is something that needs more care than is generally shown.


I will put my head above the parapet to point out the nasty effects of
pthalates and perchlorates on the thyroid! (So too many soya products.)

But one issue is price. Bicarb, for example, costs a fortune in the tiny
containers sold for baking.

And another is that the brand loyalty drags us along with all the
changes in formulation made over the years. I don't know for sure, but
it feels to me that Fairly liquid had a dramatic change a few years ago.
Nowadays it doesn't seem quite as good - though if things are left to
soak it is OK.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article ,
Rod wrote:
And another is that the brand loyalty drags us along with all the
changes in formulation made over the years. I don't know for sure, but
it feels to me that Fairly liquid had a dramatic change a few years ago.
Nowadays it doesn't seem quite as good - though if things are left to
soak it is OK.

I'm rare in not wanting a dishwasher - and pretty well all the modern hand
washing up liquids now cause heavy smearing if you leave things to drip
dry. Wasn't so a couple of years ago.

--
*No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver,purple

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
And another is that the brand loyalty drags us along with all the
changes in formulation made over the years. I don't know for sure, but
it feels to me that Fairly liquid had a dramatic change a few years ago.
Nowadays it doesn't seem quite as good - though if things are left to
soak it is OK.

I'm rare in not wanting a dishwasher - and pretty well all the modern hand
washing up liquids now cause heavy smearing if you leave things to drip
dry. Wasn't so a couple of years ago.


Same here. I do what Rod does, let it soak for 10-15 minutes, and make
sure to rinse thoroughly.

I remember reading many years ago (Lord knows where!) that where the
British rinsed washed dishes in clean water once, or not at all, the
Japanese rinsed them on average five times.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Samantha Booth wrote:



Thought you would take that stance, comical really and entirely
predictable. I just don't like to argue with people who's arguments
are made up of the words bollox and bugger as their way of bullying
their way through the argument.

And in the paragraph below you use the word 'arse'. So arse is acceptable
to use, but bollox and bugger aren't?

I didn't start this you did. I merely asked a question to which you replied
Bollox in you paragraph. I am merely stooping to your level.

Lets face it you get your arse kicked on here plenty of times without
me adding to it. Prove to me that what you use are better for me and
my family than what I use. You cant.

I can, having a basic knowledge of chemistry, but you refused to look up
how surfactants work on the grounds that;
I use them every day so I know what they do in my
house. I don't need to look anything you suggest up, thanks.

I know how they work. I dont need you to point me in that direction thanks

No doubt you can provide some evidence that your greenwash, natural
'chemicals' (but we won't call them that, because chemicals are bad and
have something to do with that nasty science thingy) work?

Since non of them are able to emulsify grease that might be difficult.
Can you explain how salt 'cuts through grease' for example?

Its an ebrasive. I use it with vinegar to cut through grease and use Bicarb
to stop the smell. Salt is excellent at cutting through grease.

I knew as soon as I made my last comment you would be on here
claiming a victory late at night, what a sad little life you lead.

Not as sad as people with no knowledge of chemistry who swallow greenwash
rubbish whole.

Absolutely nothing you have said has convinced me to divert to Tesco
and buy chemicals.

You are buying chemicals FFS! What else would you call acetic acid,
sodium bicarbonate & sodium chloride? Why are they 'good' and other
chemicals 'bad'?


They are chemincals I chose to use that have no effect on my daughter.
What you can clean with from tesco I can find kinder methods.
Anyway for the record YOU HAVE WON. Ooo is that OK for ya? Make you
feel like a man? Please

You sound just like Stewie out of Family Guy.

And you sound like a stuck record


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Bruce wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
And another is that the brand loyalty drags us along with all the
changes in formulation made over the years. I don't know for sure, but
it feels to me that Fairly liquid had a dramatic change a few years ago.
Nowadays it doesn't seem quite as good - though if things are left to
soak it is OK.
I'm rare in not wanting a dishwasher - and pretty well all the modern hand
washing up liquids now cause heavy smearing if you leave things to drip
dry. Wasn't so a couple of years ago.


Same here. I do what Rod does, let it soak for 10-15 minutes, and make
sure to rinse thoroughly.

I remember reading many years ago (Lord knows where!) that where the
British rinsed washed dishes in clean water once, or not at all, the
Japanese rinsed them on average five times.

I do rinse them off - always have done. But just the once!

I wouldn't mind a dishwasher - but not possible to work one in with the
kitchen as it is. Even then, not sure how well it would work with our
patterns of life. I would definitely like one when it comes to the
spring cleaning phase - everything out of the cupboards and, as
appropriate, washed.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 22 Jan, 12:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I exclude hydrochloric acid and ammonia, both of which blow your head
off with the fumes before you've actually used them for anything,

Rubbish.

Nothing beats ammonia for wood bending either..

You can't bend wood with ammonia in any concentration that's vaguely
safe to handle. You're not going to achieve much with .880, you would
(commercially) be looking at anhydrous and that's hard to work with.

I'd agree with your general point though - I use 26% ammonia for
fuming oak to darken it (another reason why it's not a good idea for
much bending) and even though ammonia is one of the few common
chemicals I'm at all sensitive to, a full-face mask (Avon S10) is all
I ever need to work with it.

Brick acid is simply a cheap way to get a pretty strong acid.

Define "strong" though, as that's a little more subtle for acids than
mere concentration. I use at least five workshop acids commonly
(sulphuric, hydrochloric, sulphamic, phosphoric, acetic) and two
rarely (nitric, chromic) and you have to choose according to task, not
just pick the most concentrated.

On 22 Jan, 12:01, Bruce wrote:

Modern science has brought us rivers and watercourses that are polluted
with dioxins, one of the most toxic groups of chemicals ever known,

If by "modern" you mean "the chemistry of 50 years ago".

Chemistry's not still as filthy as it was a few decades ago.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:25:27 -0000, Samantha Booth wrote:

-------------------8
You sound just like Stewie out of Family Guy.

And you sound like a stuck record

It's almost painful watching you two - both decent folk - doing this.
It's become an argument about an argument.

On 22 Jan, 11:05, Stephen Howard wrote:

Are they still using toluene?

Last I heard, they'd closed altogether (but were still using toluene
for markets that accepted it). As the product is still on the shelves,
I don't know who is producing it, or what's in it.

It's been removed from the once-legendary Evo-Stik and it's now not nearly as effective as it
used to be

AIUI, Evo-stik never "removed" anything from any product, but you
might find that today's 528 isn't quite the same stuff as the old Red
& Black that they simply don't make any more.

It's also (assuming you're in a lab full of solvents, but the shops
are shut and you have a deadline) remarkably easy to make your own.
Victorian recipes for such things used everything up to and including
carbon disulphide!

"Appelation Controlee" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:25:27 -0000, Samantha Booth wrote:

-------------------8
You sound just like Stewie out of Family Guy.

And you sound like a stuck record

It's almost painful watching you two - both decent folk - doing this.
It's become an argument about an argument.

I appreciate that but I simply asked a question on here which I have always
done. I don't need replies with Bollox. bugger and anything else he cares to
throw into it. Telling me what I have done for years in cleaning is rubbish.
I know what methods work for me and no amount of qualifications you can
throw at it will persuade me otherwise. Sorry to the group for asking
I wish I hadn't bothered now.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 22 Jan, 12:01, Bruce wrote:

Modern science has brought us rivers and watercourses that are polluted
with dioxins, one of the most toxic groups of chemicals ever known,

If by "modern" you mean "the chemistry of 50 years ago".

Chemistry's not still as filthy as it was a few decades ago.


Perhaps true, but dioxin levels are increasing, as are the substances
that mimic female hormones, leading to a massive drop in male fertility.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 22 Jan, 12:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I exclude hydrochloric acid and ammonia, both of which blow your head
off with the fumes before you've actually used them for anything,
Rubbish.

Nothing beats ammonia for wood bending either..

You can't bend wood with ammonia in any concentration that's vaguely
safe to handle. You're not going to achieve much with .880, you would
(commercially) be looking at anhydrous and that's hard to work with.

I'd agree with your general point though - I use 26% ammonia for
fuming oak to darken it (another reason why it's not a good idea for
much bending) and even though ammonia is one of the few common
chemicals I'm at all sensitive to, a full-face mask (Avon S10) is all
I ever need to work with it.

Brick acid is simply a cheap way to get a pretty strong acid.

Define "strong" though, as that's a little more subtle for acids than
mere concentration. I use at least five workshop acids commonly
(sulphuric, hydrochloric, sulphamic, phosphoric, acetic) and two
rarely (nitric, chromic) and you have to choose according to task, not
just pick the most concentrated.

all of those work on limescale..you pick the one that attacks everything
attached to it the least ;-)

Bruce wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 22 Jan, 12:01, Bruce wrote:

Modern science has brought us rivers and watercourses that are polluted
with dioxins, one of the most toxic groups of chemicals ever known,
If by "modern" you mean "the chemistry of 50 years ago".

Chemistry's not still as filthy as it was a few decades ago.


Perhaps true, but dioxin levels are increasing, as are the substances
that mimic female hormones, leading to a massive drop in male fertility.

That cant be anything but a plus, given the sort of kids people have
these days.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:49:01 +0000, Bruce wrote:

I'm rare in not wanting a dishwasher - and pretty well all the modern hand
washing up liquids now cause heavy smearing if you leave things to drip
dry. Wasn't so a couple of years ago.

Same here. I do what Rod does, let it soak for 10-15 minutes, and make
sure to rinse thoroughly.

I remember reading many years ago (Lord knows where!) that where the
British rinsed washed dishes in clean water once, or not at all, the
Japanese rinsed them on average five times.

Very wasteful, that's why I use Ecover or Bio-D and just give a quick rinse
in cold water. Not too worried about minor smears - after the state of
things on backpacking trips...!
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.