"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the options for re-plumbing my place and have been
looking at the Telford products. I want to do a mains pressure system but
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Tornado Unvented
Cylinders and the Tristor in the TSS configuration.

What are the effective differences between the two systems, seem very
similar to me? and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Heating will be by oil fired boiler. probably a Danesmoor (spelling?).

The house is four bed, two bath, two story. approx 11m square (approx
240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

Chris

The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the
Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole
house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented cylinder.
An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.


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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the options for re-plumbing my place and have been
looking at the Telford products. I want to do a mains pressure system but
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Tornado Unvented
Cylinders and the Tristor in the TSS configuration.

What are the effective differences between the two systems, seem very
similar to me? and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Heating will be by oil fired boiler. probably a Danesmoor (spelling?).

The house is four bed, two bath, two story. approx 11m square (approx
240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

Chris

What are you intending to do.? What size house, etc, etc?


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IMM wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the options for re-plumbing my place and have been
looking at the Telford products. I want to do a mains pressure system but
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Tornado Unvented
Cylinders and the Tristor in the TSS configuration.

What are the effective differences between the two systems, seem very
similar to me? and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Heating will be by oil fired boiler. probably a Danesmoor (spelling?).

The house is four bed, two bath, two story. approx 11m square (approx
240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

Chris

The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the
Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole
house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented
cylinder. An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.

hmmmmmm Rubbish. I know plenty of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder. It's just plumbing, as an old plumber once said to me "all you
need to know to be a plumber is that SH*T stinks and P*SS runs downhill".

Appologies to all plumbers who will know doubt take offence, none intended.

Admitedly there is a bit more to an unvented system than that, but not a
lot.

The thermal store in the brochure, under the TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar heated water.

Chris

PS if you had read to the end of my msg. you would have been able to see
what I want to do and the size of the house.



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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the
Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole
house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented
cylinder. An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.

hmmmmmm Rubbish.

Not so.

I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder. Do it yourself by
all means and if you have a burst, and when they go they really go with much
damage, an insurance company will not touch you. With most you need an
annual service. Once again, no service, no pay out.

It's just plumbing, as an old plumber
once said to me "all you
need to know to be a plumber is that SH*T
stinks and P*SS runs downhill".

He referring to drains then, which plumbers are good at. Heating appears to
have flown past most of them.

The thermal store in the brochure, under the
TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar
heated water.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has be
fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal stores,
the most common, and these can be DIYed.

The house is four bed, two bath, two
story. approx 11m square (approx 240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the
thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an unvented
cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)



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I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?


The thermal store in the brochure, under the
TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar
heated water.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has be
fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal stores,
the most common, and these can be DIYed.

The house is four bed, two bath, two
story. approx 11m square (approx 240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the
thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???

I plan on fitting a Danesmoor diesel boiler, a 32/50 (or is it a 36/50?
don't have the details to hand) heating an unvented mains pressure system
suppling the kitchen, one bathroom downstairs, one upstairs. The boiler
will also provide the heating via radiators.

There will be no tanks in the loft with an pressurized system, but that is
not an issue as there is plenty of space.

I'm going with what I know and what is available locally. I was and am
curious about the difference between the thermal store, heat bank, and
unvented cylinder or indeed a vented cylinder. They all store hot water and
seemingly there is not much difference. The insulation specs are similar
the actual plumbing arrangement is similar.


Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris


Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see the
difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford didn't
(doesn't) show :-)

So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day advantages of a
thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?

What are the relative costs, in materials only?


--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...


I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to fit
a pressurised cylinder.

The thermal store in the brochure, under the
TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar
heated water.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has
be
fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal
stores,
the most common, and these can be DIYed.

The house is four bed, two bath, two
story. approx 11m square (approx 240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the
thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???

I plan on fitting a Danesmoor diesel boiler, a 32/50 (or is it a 36/50?
don't have the details to hand) heating an unvented mains pressure system
suppling the kitchen, one bathroom downstairs, one upstairs. The boiler
will also provide the heating via radiators.

There will be no tanks in the loft with an pressurized system, but that is
not an issue as there is plenty of space.

I'm going with what I know and what is available locally. I was and am
curious about the difference between the thermal store, heat bank, and
unvented cylinder or indeed a vented cylinder. They all store hot water
and
seemingly there is not much difference. The insulation specs are similar
the actual plumbing arrangement is similar.

There is a big difference. A heat bank and thermals store instantly heat
incoming mains water. The stored water is "primary" water and is heated by
the boiler. It is the same water, generally, as the boiler water and will
have inhibitor in it. A thermals store has an immersed coil and a heat bank
uses a plate heat exchanger with higher flow rates.

Both thermal stores and heat banks can provide the CH from a flow and return
taken off the bottom of the cylinder. These are called "integrated" stores.
There are also DHW only stores and heat banks.

An unvented cylinder is similar to vented cylinder, except is used high
pressure mains water, while a vented uses low pressure water from a cold
water tank.

It is best you use a vented thermal store http://www.albion-online.co.uk
(see the Mainsflow) or heat bank (see DPS or Range) as these can be DIYed.
Some heat banks don't even need an overflow, so can be fitted in the centre
of the house.

Range and Albion products are available from most plumbers merchants.

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris



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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris

Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see the
difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford didn't
(doesn't) show :-)

So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day advantages of a
thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?

A heat bank:

- gives higher flow rates.
- operates on low pressure.
- can be DIYed.
- eliminates inefficient boiler cycling, so cheaper to run.
- Fast re-heat
- does not have an air bubble that requires reinstating every year
- does not require an annual service.
- Can provide CH and DHW from the same cylinder
- Can be packaged all in one unit (you just connect up pipes to the boiler
and rads, with no design work involved)
- Hot water temp at the taps user selectable
- A heat bank does not scale up.
- Can have electric backup for CH and DHW when using an integrated heat bank
or thermal store.

What are the relative costs, in materials only?

A DHW only heat bank/thermal store is less than an unvented cylinder.



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I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to
fit a pressurised cylinder.

Same to you. I don't live in the UK, check my eamil address. So not in this
country is a fact!



There is a big difference. A heat bank and thermals store instantly heat
incoming mains water. The stored water is "primary" water and is heated
by
the boiler. It is the same water, generally, as the boiler water and will
have inhibitor in it. A thermals store has an immersed coil and a heat
bank uses a plate heat exchanger with higher flow rates.

Both thermal stores and heat banks can provide the CH from a flow and
return
taken off the bottom of the cylinder. These are called "integrated"
stores. There are also DHW only stores and heat banks.

An unvented cylinder is similar to vented cylinder, except is used high
pressure mains water, while a vented uses low pressure water from a cold
water tank.

It is best you use a vented thermal store http://www.albion-online.co.uk
(see the Mainsflow) or heat bank (see DPS or Range) as these can be DIYed.
Some heat banks don't even need an overflow, so can be fitted in the
centre of the house.

Range and Albion products are available from most plumbers merchants.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Now if I have the boiler downstairs along with the heat bank, and the CH is
taken off the cylinder, which is unvented, I can't have radiators upstairs?

Can the radiators be feed from/through the heat exchanger? Or alternatively
I guess you pressurise the storeage cylinder as for an unvented system?

Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see the
difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford didn't
(doesn't) show :-)

So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day advantages of
a thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?

A heat bank:

- gives higher flow rates.
- operates on low pressure.
- can be DIYed.
- eliminates inefficient boiler cycling, so cheaper to run.
- Fast re-heat
- does not have an air bubble that requires reinstating every year
- does not require an annual service.
- Can provide CH and DHW from the same cylinder
- Can be packaged all in one unit (you just connect up pipes to the boiler
and rads, with no design work involved)
- Hot water temp at the taps user selectable
- A heat bank does not scale up.
- Can have electric backup for CH and DHW when using an integrated heat
bank or thermal store.

What are the relative costs, in materials only?

A DHW only heat bank/thermal store is less than an unvented cylinder.

Very interesting. I'm going to have to do more research on this. Sounds too
good to be true. What are the disadvantages.?

Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to
fit a pressurised cylinder.

Same to you. I don't live in the UK, check my eamil address. So not in
this
country is a fact!

This uk.d-i-y. What country is fk? Falklands?

There is a big difference. A heat bank and thermals store instantly
heat
incoming mains water. The stored water is "primary" water and is heated
by
the boiler. It is the same water, generally, as the boiler water and
will
have inhibitor in it. A thermals store has an immersed coil and a heat
bank uses a plate heat exchanger with higher flow rates.

Both thermal stores and heat banks can provide the CH from a flow and
return
taken off the bottom of the cylinder. These are called "integrated"
stores. There are also DHW only stores and heat banks.

An unvented cylinder is similar to vented cylinder, except is used high
pressure mains water, while a vented uses low pressure water from a cold
water tank.

It is best you use a vented thermal store http://www.albion-online.co.uk
(see the Mainsflow) or heat bank (see DPS or Range) as these can be
DIYed.
Some heat banks don't even need an overflow, so can be fitted in the
centre of the house.

Range and Albion products are available from most plumbers merchants.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Now if I have the boiler downstairs along with the heat bank, and the CH
is
taken off the cylinder, which is unvented, I can't have radiators
upstairs?

With a vented the rads have to be below the heat bank, with an "unvented",
or pressurised, heat bank the rads can be anywhere and the heat bank can be
anywhere. Most have a vented heat bank on the first floor, which is above
all rads.

Can the radiators be feed from/through
the heat exchanger? Or alternatively
I guess you pressurise the storeage
cylinder as for an unvented system?

If it is pressurised, then the rads can be taken off the bottom of the
cylinder.

Best go for a DHW only heat bank or thermal store with a boiler heat
transfer coil. Have the CH circuit pressurised. Then the heat bank can
located anywhere and rads anywhere.



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On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:59:34 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...


I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to fit
a pressurised cylinder.


There's no need to be rude.

- I don't believe that Chris is in the UK....

- In the UK, the position appears to be as follows:

From the Building Regulations, 2000

Hot water storage

********************
G3. A hot water storage system that has a hot water storage
vessel which does not incorporate a vent pipe to the atmosphere shall
be installed by a person competent to do so, and there shall be
precautions -


(a) to prevent the temperature of stored water at any time exceeding
100°C; and

(b) to ensure that the hot water discharged from safety devices is
safely conveyed to where it is visible but will not cause danger to
persons in or about the building.

********************

Note that there is a requirement for competence without it being
defined, just as in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations.






From the Approved Document to Part G:

The unit or package should be installed by a competent person, i.e.
one holding a current Registered Operative Identity Card for the
installation of unvented domestic hot water storage systems issued by

a) the Construction Industry Training Board, or

b) the Institute of Plumbing, or

c) the Association of Installers of Unvented Hot Water Systems
(Scotland and Northern Ireland), or

d) individuals who are designated Registered Operatives and who are
employed by companies included on the list of approved installers
published by the BBA up to the 31st Dec 1991, or

e) an equivalent body




Notably, this says "should" and not "shall".

The IoP maintains one of the Competent Persons schemes allowing self
certification as opposed to a Building Notice.


The Statutory Instrument does not appear to preclude submitting a
building notice






..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:59:34 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...


I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to
fit
a pressurised cylinder.


There's no need to be rude.

Rude? The man was terse.

- I don't believe that Chris is in the UK....

he should have said so. And he still didn't say where he was.

- In the UK, the position appears to be as follows:

From the Building Regulations, 2000

Hot water storage

********************
G3. A hot water storage system that has a hot water storage
vessel which does not incorporate a vent pipe to the atmosphere shall
be installed by a person competent to do so, and there shall be
precautions -


(a) to prevent the temperature of stored water at any time exceeding
100°C; and

(b) to ensure that the hot water discharged from safety devices is
safely conveyed to where it is visible but will not cause danger to
persons in or about the building.

********************

Note that there is a requirement for competence without it being
defined, just as in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations.






From the Approved Document to Part G:

The unit or package should be installed by a competent person, i.e.
one holding a current Registered Operative Identity Card for the
installation of unvented domestic hot water storage systems issued by

a) the Construction Industry Training Board, or

b) the Institute of Plumbing, or

c) the Association of Installers of Unvented Hot Water Systems
(Scotland and Northern Ireland), or

d) individuals who are designated Registered Operatives and who are
employed by companies included on the list of approved installers
published by the BBA up to the 31st Dec 1991, or

e) an equivalent body




Notably, this says "should" and not "shall".

The IoP maintains one of the Competent Persons schemes allowing self
certification as opposed to a Building Notice.


The Statutory Instrument does not appear to preclude submitting a
building notice






.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:43:16 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see
the
difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford
didn't
(doesn't) show :-)

So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day
advantages
of
a thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?

A heat bank:

- gives higher flow rates.
- operates on low pressure.
- can be DIYed.
- eliminates inefficient boiler cycling, so cheaper to run.
- Fast re-heat
- does not have an air bubble that requires reinstating every year
- does not require an annual service.
- Can provide CH and DHW from the same cylinder
- Can be packaged all in one unit (you just connect up pipes to the
boiler
and rads, with no design work involved)
- Hot water temp at the taps user selectable
- A heat bank does not scale up.
- Can have electric backup for CH and DHW when using an integrated
heat
bank or thermal store.

What are the relative costs, in materials only?

A DHW only heat bank/thermal store is less than an unvented cylinder.

Very interesting. I'm going to have to do more research on this. Sounds
too
good to be true. What are the disadvantages.?

None. as you can get pressurised heat banks where the whole cylinder is
pressurised, some vented with boiler heat transfer coils, can be fitted
with
solar heating coils, can be vented. There are many combinations.

The heatweb site explains very well.



Taking care to read the specifications. Some of the quoted recovery
times do not give the starting temperature and are therefore
meaningless.

Show us.


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:56:15 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The heatweb site explains very well.



Taking care to read the specifications. Some of the quoted recovery
times do not give the starting temperature and are therefore
meaningless.

Show us.



There are numerous examples.

"Benefits of the GX Heat Bank Unit" is an obvious one. It describes
an experiment whereby various volumes of water were drawn off and
recovery times measured. It doesn't state the temperature of the
cold water, therefore the data is meaningless.

Did you contact them and find out?


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IMM wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved
to fit a pressurised cylinder.

Same to you. I don't live in the UK, check my eamil address. So not in
this
country is a fact!

This uk.d-i-y. What country is fk? Falklands?

Yes, which is UK overseas territory. As all our systems here are UK
standards, and most products imported from the UK it makes sense for me to
participate in a NG that is relevant to those standards and products.

You are participating in a NG that is open to the whole world, you shouldn't
make sweeping asumptions that just because the title of the NG includes UK
that all participants are located there. I've seen postings here from all
over.

I don't see why I should state my location, as you suggest in another post.
My question was what are the differences between certain products, not who
or what should install them. Therefore the location is irrelevent.

--
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In message , IMM
writes

Taking care to read the specifications. Some of the quoted recovery
times do not give the starting temperature and are therefore
meaningless.

Show us.

Er, if the recovery times don't give the starting temp, what is there to
show, logicboi?
--
geoff

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:21:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:56:15 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The heatweb site explains very well.



Taking care to read the specifications. Some of the quoted
recovery
times do not give the starting temperature and are therefore
meaningless.

Show us.



There are numerous examples.

"Benefits of the GX Heat Bank Unit" is an obvious one. It describes
an experiment whereby various volumes of water were drawn off and
recovery times measured. It doesn't state the temperature of the
cold water, therefore the data is meaningless.

Did you contact them and find out?


Why would I want to do that? This is meant to be a presentation and
a specification of a product. All relevant data should be there.
After all, if you look at the spec. of a boiler it is.

They have a rig in their place that they allow customers to test. You can
always go their and take measurements yourself.


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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved
to fit a pressurised cylinder.

Same to you. I don't live in the UK, check my eamil address. So not in
this
country is a fact!

This uk.d-i-y. What country is fk? Falklands?

Yes, which is UK overseas territory. As all our systems here are UK
standards, and most products imported from the UK it makes sense for me to
participate in a NG that is relevant to those standards and products.

You are participating in a NG that is open to the whole world, you
shouldn't
make sweeping asumptions that just because the title of the NG includes UK
that all participants are located there. I've seen postings here from all
over.

It is uk.d-i-y. the onus is on you to state you are not in the UK. The
southern Ireland posters do that, and their standards in most things are not
far off ours.



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It is uk.d-i-y. the onus is on you to state you are not in the UK. The
southern Ireland posters do that, and their standards in most things are
not far off ours.

Ok fair enough you have made your point, and point taken. But the onus is on
you to answer the question and not to preach who can and can't install any
system. The rest of your comments have been very useful.

Now I've been doing a fair bit of reading today, and thinking where I could
put in an unpressurised heat bank. Might be able to squeeze one into the
back loft, definitly could get anything in the main loft.

Does anybody do a design service? Or more to the point who does a good fair,
unbiased, design service?

If I'm going down this route I would like to have at least a plan, if not a
materials list, drawn up by a pro. As I will be importing almost
everything, either because I have to or just to save costs, I would like to
get it right.

Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

It is uk.d-i-y. the onus is on you to state you are not in the UK. The
southern Ireland posters do that, and their standards in most things are
not far off ours.

Ok fair enough you have made
your point, and point taken. But the onus is on
you to answer the question and not to preach
who can and can't install any system.

You responded with one liners and never explained. If UK regs don't apply
to you it is up to you to say so. You were given the reasons why a DIYer
can't install an unvented cylinder in the UK and a better alternative. That
is not preaching.

Now I've been doing a fair bit of reading today,
and thinking where I could
put in an unpressurised heat bank. Might be
able to squeeze one into the
back loft, definitly could get anything in the
main loft.

Does anybody do a design service? Or more
to the point who does a good fair,
unbiased, design service?

The DPS sites give a load of on-line, and downloadable, design software.
What you need is calculate the rad sizes, then this will give you the boiler
size. Calulate the heat bank/thermal store size with the appropriate
software on the DPS site. Then you can get a heat bank that has all the
controls, motorised valves, elecrical box, etc in one package. Look at the
DPS site for customers examples. All you need do is connect up the boilers
flow and return and the radiator flow and return to the appropriate
connections, the power, clock and the room stat. These can be pre-wired
into the box and it is a matter of running a wire out to each component.

Then it is a matter of sizing up the CH pipes.

If I'm going down this route I would like to
have at least a plan, if not a
materials list, drawn up by a pro. As I will
be importing almost everything, either because
I have to or just to save costs, I would like to
get it right.

Firstly get kit which can be serviced with available parts where you are,
and that locals can service. What is the most common oil boiler with parts
available on the islands? Get one of these. Heat banks are simple and
service free. The locals probably will not have heard of them, but the
logic is easy to follow for even a dumb plumber. Unvented cylinders require
pressure controls and if these go then you have no hot water and you need to
source the parts and no hot water.

Try DPS as a first stop, I'm sure they have a design service. They may
throw that in for free if you buy a simple heat bank from them. They will
need a plan of your house. This probably can be on A4 paper, with room
sizes, what type of walls and floors, windows sizes, single or double
glazed, insulation levels, boiler location, heat bank location, etc.

A TIP:
Go for an "integrated" heat bank, which provides CH and DHW, with a large
backup electric immersion. If the oil boiler is down then electricity will
heat the heat bank cylinder, and hence the house and hot water until the
boiler is up. Essential in a part of the world where most parts have to be
imported and may take time with long outage times.

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW backup.

Heat bank use standard heating pumps. I assume these are available on the
islands off-the-shelf. They operate on flow switches, which probably are
not available on the islands, so it may be worth your while ordering one of
these as a spare, just in case.

Is all equipment British? Don't you import any from Argentina? If so are
they local makes or imported Italian or Spanish?


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:13:47 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:56:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Does anybody do a design service? Or more
to the point who does a good fair,
unbiased, design service?

The DPS sites give a load of on-line, and downloadable, design software.
What you need is calculate the rad sizes, then this will give you the
boiler
size. Calulate the heat bank/thermal store size with the appropriate
software on the DPS site. Then you can get a heat bank that has all the
controls, motorised valves, elecrical box, etc in one package. Look at
the
DPS site for customers examples. All you need do is connect up the
boilers
flow and return and the radiator flow and return to the appropriate
connections, the power, clock and the room stat. These can be pre-wired
into the box and it is a matter of running a wire out to each component.


I would be very careful in dealing with this company. I purchased
some fittings from them and a heat exchanger in a steel case

The heat exchanger is a heavy item and was held in the case by a
fairly weak metal bracket. In itself, this was questionnable in
design and it did not stand up to transit. On arrival, the heat
exchanger was rattling around in the case and had become damaged.

The fittings were so badly packed that some were broken. A flow
switch, which was part of the order, was clearly second hand.

The poor design of the heat exchanger enclosure and fixing method
would cast doubts in my mind as to whether any system designs would be
of similar quality.

It was all returned and eventually replaced, but I certainly would not
do business with them in the future, especially in circumstances where
return of product is not easy.

I can't speak for them, but every time I have ordered I have had no
problems.

I thought you said that you had an Ideal combi boiler......


Buying a pre-assembled heat bank is very much another matter.

Why? If there is a problem with a simple thing like a heat exchanger
in a box, a more complex assembly like a heatbank would be even more
questionnable.


One thing is that special shipping agents would pack the unit and ship it
off.

They used the Royal Mail...... :-)

I'm sure they use Alpha laval plate heat-exchangers, which are a very
product.

GEA Ecobraze, which are a good product as long as they are in a
suitable enclosure and properly packed......



I did say these are the first stop, the definate one to go to.


In view of what I experienced, they are not on my recommended list.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Does anybody do a design service? Or more
to the point who does a good fair,
unbiased, design service?

The DPS sites give a load of on-line, and downloadable, design software.
What you need is calculate the rad sizes, then this will give you the
boiler
size. Calulate the heat bank/thermal store size with the appropriate
software on the DPS site. Then you can get a heat bank that has all the
controls, motorised valves, elecrical box, etc in one package. Look at
the
DPS site for customers examples. All you need do is connect up the
boilers flow and return and the radiator flow and return to the
appropriate
connections, the power, clock and the room stat. These can be pre-wired
into the box and it is a matter of running a wire out to each component.


I've calculated all of that, using first principles rather dodgy
downloadable software that gives generic answers, often the wrong ones.
Only thing I have to do is use them (their software) to calculate the heat
bank size. I'd rather see some good figures, as Andy mentioned, so that I
could calculate from scratch myself though.

The Heatweb site is very broken, I had to change browser three times to find
one that worked with their site, which doesn't say much for the rest of
their products. The articles were interesting, once I could view them
properly.

Then it is a matter of sizing up the CH pipes.

If I'm going down this route I would like to
have at least a plan, if not a
materials list, drawn up by a pro. As I will
be importing almost everything, either because
I have to or just to save costs, I would like to
get it right.

Firstly get kit which can be serviced with available parts where you are,

That's what I was implying.

and that locals can service. What is the most common oil boiler with
parts
available on the islands? Get one of these.

Worcster danesmoor, myson, mistral etc.. they pretty much all use rielo
(sp?) burners anyway.

Heat banks are simple and
service free. The locals probably will not have heard of them,

Another assumption. I haven't heard of one being used with an oil burner,
but there are solar systems around. I'll ask around next week.

but the
logic is easy to follow for even a dumb plumber. Unvented cylinders
require pressure controls and if these go then you have no hot water and
you need to source the parts and no hot water.

They are commonly used though so sourcing parts is not a problem.


Try DPS as a first stop, I'm sure they have a design service. They may
throw that in for free if you buy a simple heat bank from them. They will
need a plan of your house. This probably can be on A4 paper, with room
sizes, what type of walls and floors, windows sizes, single or double
glazed, insulation levels, boiler location, heat bank location, etc.

Got all that done.


A TIP:
Go for an "integrated" heat bank, which provides CH and DHW, with a large
backup electric immersion. If the oil boiler is down then electricity
will heat the heat bank cylinder, and hence the house and hot water until
the
boiler is up. Essential in a part of the world where most parts have to
be imported and may take time with long outage times.

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW backup.

Not true, some combis do it now.


Heat bank use standard heating pumps. I assume these are available on the
islands off-the-shelf.

Yes of course.

They operate on flow switches, which probably are
not available on the islands, so it may be worth your while ordering one
of these as a spare, just in case.

I'll check


Is all equipment British? Don't you import any from Argentina? If so are
they local makes or imported Italian or Spanish?

LOL, your geography might be ok, but your political geography is way off.
There are still no contacts with Argentina here. We get stuff from Chile,
but the quality is usually low to crap. The same comments about quality
would/do apply to Argentine products. Those countries mainly use mains gas
anyway, at least down south, which is only available here in cylinders.

Chris


--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

I did say these are the first stop, the definate one to go to.


In view of what I experienced, they are not on my recommended list.
.andy


Thanks for your moderation :-)

Would you reccomend another supplier Andy? You are quite right about quality
and shipping. If there any weakness' the voyage and handling at the docks
will find it!

Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:56:58 -0400, Chris Harris
wrote:




I did say these are the first stop, the definate one to go to.


In view of what I experienced, they are not on my recommended list.
.andy


Thanks for your moderation :-)

Would you reccomend another supplier Andy? You are quite right about quality
and shipping. If there any weakness' the voyage and handling at the docks
will find it!

Chris


Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local
suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major
manufacturers for supply.

The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea
freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find
a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody
that your company uses for example?

I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor
that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly
better to work backwards....




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local
suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major
manufacturers for supply.

The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea
freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find
a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody
that your company uses for example?

I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor
that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly
better to work backwards....

I have the freight under control. I Will be in the UK for a holiday/shopping
trip for the new(old) house renovation job and will be shipping a lot of
stuff. I will get it consolodated and shipped as one lot. If I think I have
enough I will buy an old end of life container and ship the lot in that and
have an onsite store to boot.

I will be buying some stuff locally, showstoppers, like the boiler, and
probably will get a local firm to import the cylinder/heatbank/whatever for
me. Then it's their problem to replace it in case of damage during
shipping. Well in the case of a standard cylinder, vented or not, it's an
off the shelf product anyway.

Now do you know any other firms, doing a similar service to DPS, so that I
can at least get comparative quotes?

Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...



I did say these are the first stop, the definate one to go to.


In view of what I experienced, they are not on my recommended list.
.andy


Thanks for your moderation :-)

Would you reccomend another supplier Andy? You are quite right about
quality
and shipping. If there any weakness' the voyage and handling at the docks
will find it!

Chris,

Try Albion (the Mainsflow) and Range.

BTW, DPS make some excellent equipment. Andy is on about how a few small
items were shipped. A large item will be packaged by the shippers.


---
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On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:25:20 -0400, Chris Harris
wrote:


Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local
suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major
manufacturers for supply.

The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea
freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find
a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody
that your company uses for example?

I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor
that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly
better to work backwards....

I have the freight under control. I Will be in the UK for a holiday/shopping
trip for the new(old) house renovation job and will be shipping a lot of
stuff. I will get it consolodated and shipped as one lot. If I think I have
enough I will buy an old end of life container and ship the lot in that and
have an onsite store to boot.

I will be buying some stuff locally, showstoppers, like the boiler, and
probably will get a local firm to import the cylinder/heatbank/whatever for
me. Then it's their problem to replace it in case of damage during
shipping. Well in the case of a standard cylinder, vented or not, it's an
off the shelf product anyway.

Now do you know any other firms, doing a similar service to DPS, so that I
can at least get comparative quotes?

Chris

Do you specifically want a thermal store or heat bank solution as
opposed to a conventional cylinder of some kind?

There are the major cylinder companies like Albion, Range and Telford
as a starting point.

You could also look at Gledhill, although they do not appear to be
very approachable in the sense that they say that they only work
through installers....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:25:20 -0400, Chris Harris
wrote:


Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local
suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major
manufacturers for supply.

The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea
freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find
a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody
that your company uses for example?

I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor
that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly
better to work backwards....

I have the freight under control. I Will be in the UK for a
holiday/shopping
trip for the new(old) house renovation job and will be shipping a lot of
stuff. I will get it consolodated and shipped as one lot. If I think I
have
enough I will buy an old end of life container and ship the lot in that
and
have an onsite store to boot.

I will be buying some stuff locally, showstoppers, like the boiler, and
probably will get a local firm to import the cylinder/heatbank/whatever
for
me. Then it's their problem to replace it in case of damage during
shipping. Well in the case of a standard cylinder, vented or not, it's an
off the shelf product anyway.

Now do you know any other firms, doing a similar service to DPS, so that
I
can at least get comparative quotes?

Chris

Do you specifically want a thermal store or heat bank solution as
opposed to a conventional cylinder of some kind?

He should go for one as it is only solution to a give a full CH and DHW
electrical backup. Heat banks/thermal stores are simple and reliable. Heat
banks resist scale. Best avoid an unvented cylinder.



---
--

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Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Does anybody do a design service? Or more
to the point who does a good fair,
unbiased, design service?

The DPS sites give a load of on-line, and downloadable, design software.
What you need is calculate the rad sizes, then this will give you the
boiler
size. Calulate the heat bank/thermal store size with the appropriate
software on the DPS site. Then you can get a heat bank that has all the
controls, motorised valves, elecrical box, etc in one package. Look at
the
DPS site for customers examples. All you need do is connect up the
boilers flow and return and the radiator flow and return to the
appropriate
connections, the power, clock and the room stat. These can be pre-wired
into the box and it is a matter of running a wire out to each component.


I've calculated all of that, using first principles rather dodgy
downloadable software that gives generic answers, often the wrong ones.
Only thing I have to do is use them (their software) to calculate the heat
bank size. I'd rather see some good figures, as Andy mentioned, so that I
could calculate from scratch myself though.

The Heatweb site is very broken, I had to change browser three times to
find
one that worked with their site, which doesn't say much for the rest of
their products. The articles were interesting, once I could view them
properly.

I have found no problems with their site. But I am not accessing it from
half way around the world.

Then it is a matter of sizing up the CH pipes.

If I'm going down this route I would like to
have at least a plan, if not a
materials list, drawn up by a pro. As I will
be importing almost everything, either because
I have to or just to save costs, I would like to
get it right.

Firstly get kit which can be serviced with available parts where you
are,

That's what I was implying.

and that locals can service. What is the most common oil boiler with
parts
available on the islands? Get one of these.

Worcster danesmoor, myson, mistral etc.. they pretty much all use rielo
(sp?) burners anyway.

Heat banks are simple and
service free. The locals probably will not have heard of them,

Another assumption. I haven't heard of one being used with an oil burner,
but there are solar systems around. I'll ask around next week.

Oil or gas it doesn't matter.

but the
logic is easy to follow for even a dumb plumber. Unvented cylinders
require pressure controls and if these go then you have no hot water and
you need to source the parts and no hot water.

They are commonly used though so sourcing parts is not a problem.


Try DPS as a first stop, I'm sure they have a design service. They may
throw that in for free if you buy a simple heat bank from them. They
will
need a plan of your house. This probably can be on A4 paper, with room
sizes, what type of walls and floors, windows sizes, single or double
glazed, insulation levels, boiler location, heat bank location, etc.

Got all that done.


A TIP:
Go for an "integrated" heat bank, which provides CH and DHW, with a
large
backup electric immersion. If the oil boiler is down then electricity
will heat the heat bank cylinder, and hence the house and hot water
until
the
boiler is up. Essential in a part of the world where most parts have to
be imported and may take time with long outage times.

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW backup.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an
integral electric backup.

Heat bank use standard heating pumps. I assume these are available on
the
islands off-the-shelf.

Yes of course.

They operate on flow switches, which probably are
not available on the islands, so it may be worth your while ordering one
of these as a spare, just in case.

I'll check



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local
suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major
manufacturers for supply.

The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea
freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find
a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody
that your company uses for example?

I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor
that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly
better to work backwards....

I have the freight under control. I Will be in the UK for a
holiday/shopping
trip for the new(old) house renovation job and will be shipping a lot of
stuff. I will get it consolodated and shipped as one lot. If I think I
have
enough I will buy an old end of life container and ship the lot in that
and
have an onsite store to boot.

I will be buying some stuff locally, showstoppers, like the boiler, and
probably will get a local firm to import the cylinder/heatbank/whatever
for
me. Then it's their problem to replace it in case of damage during
shipping. Well in the case of a standard cylinder, vented or not, it's an
off the shelf product anyway.

Now do you know any other firms, doing a similar service to DPS, so that I
can at least get comparative quotes?

Albion and Range are big boys making mainly standard products, but will
custom build to suit (at a price). DPS are smallish but leading edge in
technology having a few patents about. All use standard of-the-shelf
components.

http://www.abion-online.co.uk
http://www.range-cylinder.co.uk (go to thermal storage)

What you "need" is an "integrated" heat bank with: vented, with integrated
feed and expansion tank, and all electrics wired in, with electric backup
(DP and Range do these), Albion only do thermal stores. Heat banks are now
virtually the norm.

http://www,glendhill.net, Do heat banks and make excellent stuff. Not cheap,
but will deal with a self builder, but they mainly deal with large customers
such as large house developers. Some of their components are dedicated to
their products.

Sizing up an integrated heat banks is different to sizing a DHW only model.
One being larger.

Note: a vented heat bank can be on the same level as your highest rads.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW
backup.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an
integral electric backup.

C1-5070 and C1-7090 - took me ages to find the brochure having just moved.
You could be right though - looks like it might only be for the hot water.


Chris

--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

Albion and Range are big boys making mainly standard products, but will
custom build to suit (at a price). DPS are smallish but leading edge in
technology having a few patents about. All use standard of-the-shelf
components.

http://www.abion-online.co.uk
http://www.range-cylinder.co.uk (go to thermal storage)

What you "need" is an "integrated" heat bank with: vented, with integrated
feed and expansion tank, and all electrics wired in, with electric backup
(DP and Range do these), Albion only do thermal stores. Heat banks are
now virtually the norm.

http://www,glendhill.net, Do heat banks and make excellent stuff. Not
cheap, but will deal with a self builder, but they mainly deal with large
customers such as large house developers. Some of their components are
dedicated to their products.

Sizing up an integrated heat banks is different to sizing a DHW only
model. One being larger.

Note: a vented heat bank can be on the same level as your highest rads.

Thanks for all that, I'll do some more surfing. Any reason why the heat bank
can't be on the ground floor with a header tank above the level of the
rads?


--
Remove "nospam." from my address to reply directly

Do you specifically want a thermal store or heat bank solution as
opposed to a conventional cylinder of some kind?

There are the major cylinder companies like Albion, Range and Telford
as a starting point.

I like the idea. I was going with a pressurised system. Telford Tornado
Stainless steel if I go down that road. Local supplier, I have an account,
15% off, no import worries etc..

But having read about heat banks, and learnt a lot about them this weekend I
want to at least explore the options especially if it's going to be more
efficeient as it's a big house :-)



You could also look at Gledhill, although they do not appear to be
very approachable in the sense that they say that they only work
through installers....

IMM mentioned them too, thanks I'll look around

Chris

--
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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW
backup.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an
integral electric backup.

C1-5070 and C1-7090 - took me ages to find the brochure having just moved.
You could be right though - looks like it might only be for the hot water.

Mistral Boilers in Telford. I'm sure they are just plain oil boilers.


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW
backup.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an
integral electric backup.

C1-5070 and C1-7090 - took me ages to find the brochure having just moved.
You could be right though - looks like it might only be for the hot water.

The only full backup for a "combi" is for the Potterton Powermax (well a
combined primary storage unit, but still all in one case), but this is
natural gas/LPG, not oil.



---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:12:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Which model. I am a pro, not amateur,


This has never been substantiated....

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW
backup.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an
integral electric backup.

C1-5070 and C1-7090 - took me ages to find the brochure having just
moved. You could be right though - looks like it might only be for the
hot water.

Mistral Boilers in Telford. I'm sure they are just plain oil boilers.

Lets have a look. Yes in Telford. They do a good range split into five
categories. Combi, Kitchen, Sealed system, Diamond, and Boiler House. Their
combis only go to 26kW though and I need about 40kW.

I've had a look at their combis at their dealers here and they are the best
built CH boiler that I have seen. Nicely and very well thought out layout,
easy access everywhere. The immersion is in the front just to the right of
the burner IIRC..... Just checked the brochure and it is.

Re-reading the brochure, it looks like the immersion heater gives full
backup. They claim it is a unique feature, and from what you say it seems
that way.

I don't want one though because the dealer doesn't over a servicing service
and his spares are bit on the pricey side.

Chris

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Albion and Range are big boys making mainly standard products, but will
custom build to suit (at a price). DPS are smallish but leading edge
in
technology having a few patents about. All use standard of-the-shelf
components.

http://www.abion-online.co.uk
http://www.range-cylinder.co.uk (go to thermal storage)

What you "need" is an "integrated" heat bank with: vented, with
integrated
feed and expansion tank, and all electrics wired in, with electric
backup
(DP and Range do these), Albion only do thermal stores. Heat banks are
now virtually the norm.

http://www,glendhill.net, Do heat banks and make excellent stuff. Not
cheap, but will deal with a self builder, but they mainly deal with
large
customers such as large house developers. Some of their components are
dedicated to their products.

Sizing up an integrated heat banks is different to sizing a DHW only
model. One being larger.

Note: a vented heat bank can be on the same level as your highest rads.

Thanks for all that, I'll do some more surfing. Any reason why the heat
bank
can't be on the ground floor with a header tank above the level of the
rads?

None at all. Range describe the built-in header tank models as
"combination". See products - thermal stores I think. They, as do most
makers, also do a model so you provide your own header tank.

Heat banks have external plate heat exchangers. These can be screwed off
for de-scaling, but they rarely scale up. If they blow (very rare) then
you
change it. If an integral coil goes on a thermal store or any type of
cylinder, you have to replace a whole cylinder.

I re-iterate, a thermal store/heat banks is the only method with built in
electric backup for CH and DHW, which ideal for remote places. A tornado
cylinder can have electric backup but only for DHW.

Another good point about TS/heat banks is that when the rooms stat calls
for hot water to the rads heat is there immediately from the stored hot
water. No warm up.

Keep it low pressure if you can. Unvented is high pressure and
complexity. TS's/heat banks are simplicity.

How much does a spare heat exchanger cost? I think that along with a flow
switch, and anything else that I find as unique to these beasts, one will
have to go onto the spares list, as if it breaks it's a showstopper until I
could get one flown in.

I've written to the DPS heatweb people and I'll probably contact the others
as I read more about their products.

Chris
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:12:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Which model. I am a pro, not amateur,


This has never been substantiated....

Andy, grow up. Keep polishing the CAT boots.


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