"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the options for re-plumbing my place and have been
looking at the Telford products. I want to do a mains pressure system but
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Tornado Unvented
Cylinders and the Tristor in the TSS configuration.

What are the effective differences between the two systems, seem very
similar to me? and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Heating will be by oil fired boiler. probably a Danesmoor (spelling?).

The house is four bed, two bath, two story. approx 11m square (approx
240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

Chris

The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the
Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole
house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented cylinder.
An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.


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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the options for re-plumbing my place and have been
looking at the Telford products. I want to do a mains pressure system but
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Tornado Unvented
Cylinders and the Tristor in the TSS configuration.

What are the effective differences between the two systems, seem very
similar to me? and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Heating will be by oil fired boiler. probably a Danesmoor (spelling?).

The house is four bed, two bath, two story. approx 11m square (approx
240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

Chris

What are you intending to do.? What size house, etc, etc?


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IMM wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the options for re-plumbing my place and have been
looking at the Telford products. I want to do a mains pressure system but
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Tornado Unvented
Cylinders and the Tristor in the TSS configuration.

What are the effective differences between the two systems, seem very
similar to me? and what are the advantages and disadvantages.

Heating will be by oil fired boiler. probably a Danesmoor (spelling?).

The house is four bed, two bath, two story. approx 11m square (approx
240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

Chris

The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the
Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole
house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented
cylinder. An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.

hmmmmmm Rubbish. I know plenty of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder. It's just plumbing, as an old plumber once said to me "all you
need to know to be a plumber is that SH*T stinks and P*SS runs downhill".

Appologies to all plumbers who will know doubt take offence, none intended.

Admitedly there is a bit more to an unvented system than that, but not a
lot.

The thermal store in the brochure, under the TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar heated water.

Chris

PS if you had read to the end of my msg. you would have been able to see
what I want to do and the size of the house.



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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the
Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole
house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented
cylinder. An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.

hmmmmmm Rubbish.

Not so.

I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder. Do it yourself by
all means and if you have a burst, and when they go they really go with much
damage, an insurance company will not touch you. With most you need an
annual service. Once again, no service, no pay out.

It's just plumbing, as an old plumber
once said to me "all you
need to know to be a plumber is that SH*T
stinks and P*SS runs downhill".

He referring to drains then, which plumbers are good at. Heating appears to
have flown past most of them.

The thermal store in the brochure, under the
TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar
heated water.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has be
fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal stores,
the most common, and these can be DIYed.

The house is four bed, two bath, two
story. approx 11m square (approx 240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the
thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an unvented
cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)



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I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?


The thermal store in the brochure, under the
TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar
heated water.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has be
fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal stores,
the most common, and these can be DIYed.

The house is four bed, two bath, two
story. approx 11m square (approx 240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the
thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???

I plan on fitting a Danesmoor diesel boiler, a 32/50 (or is it a 36/50?
don't have the details to hand) heating an unvented mains pressure system
suppling the kitchen, one bathroom downstairs, one upstairs. The boiler
will also provide the heating via radiators.

There will be no tanks in the loft with an pressurized system, but that is
not an issue as there is plenty of space.

I'm going with what I know and what is available locally. I was and am
curious about the difference between the thermal store, heat bank, and
unvented cylinder or indeed a vented cylinder. They all store hot water and
seemingly there is not much difference. The insulation specs are similar
the actual plumbing arrangement is similar.


Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris

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Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris


Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see the
difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford didn't
(doesn't) show :-)

So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day advantages of a
thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?

What are the relative costs, in materials only?


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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris

Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see the
difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford didn't
(doesn't) show :-)

So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day advantages of a
thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?

A heat bank:

- gives higher flow rates.
- operates on low pressure.
- can be DIYed.
- eliminates inefficient boiler cycling, so cheaper to run.
- Fast re-heat
- does not have an air bubble that requires reinstating every year
- does not require an annual service.
- Can provide CH and DHW from the same cylinder
- Can be packaged all in one unit (you just connect up pipes to the boiler
and rads, with no design work involved)
- Hot water temp at the taps user selectable
- A heat bank does not scale up.
- Can have electric backup for CH and DHW when using an integrated heat bank
or thermal store.

What are the relative costs, in materials only?

A DHW only heat bank/thermal store is less than an unvented cylinder.



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"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...


I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to fit
a pressurised cylinder.

The thermal store in the brochure, under the
TSS system is unvented. Fair
enough if it's meant for storing solar
heated water.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has
be
fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal
stores,
the most common, and these can be DIYed.

The house is four bed, two bath, two
story. approx 11m square (approx 240m2)
with 2.8m ceilings downstairs, normal 2.4 upstairs.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the
thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???

I plan on fitting a Danesmoor diesel boiler, a 32/50 (or is it a 36/50?
don't have the details to hand) heating an unvented mains pressure system
suppling the kitchen, one bathroom downstairs, one upstairs. The boiler
will also provide the heating via radiators.

There will be no tanks in the loft with an pressurized system, but that is
not an issue as there is plenty of space.

I'm going with what I know and what is available locally. I was and am
curious about the difference between the thermal store, heat bank, and
unvented cylinder or indeed a vented cylinder. They all store hot water
and
seemingly there is not much difference. The insulation specs are similar
the actual plumbing arrangement is similar.

There is a big difference. A heat bank and thermals store instantly heat
incoming mains water. The stored water is "primary" water and is heated by
the boiler. It is the same water, generally, as the boiler water and will
have inhibitor in it. A thermals store has an immersed coil and a heat bank
uses a plate heat exchanger with higher flow rates.

Both thermal stores and heat banks can provide the CH from a flow and return
taken off the bottom of the cylinder. These are called "integrated" stores.
There are also DHW only stores and heat banks.

An unvented cylinder is similar to vented cylinder, except is used high
pressure mains water, while a vented uses low pressure water from a cold
water tank.

It is best you use a vented thermal store http://www.albion-online.co.uk
(see the Mainsflow) or heat bank (see DPS or Range) as these can be DIYed.
Some heat banks don't even need an overflow, so can be fitted in the centre
of the house.

Range and Albion products are available from most plumbers merchants.

Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an
unvented cylinder.

http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)

I'll take a look.
Chris



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I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to
fit a pressurised cylinder.

Same to you. I don't live in the UK, check my eamil address. So not in this
country is a fact!



There is a big difference. A heat bank and thermals store instantly heat
incoming mains water. The stored water is "primary" water and is heated
by
the boiler. It is the same water, generally, as the boiler water and will
have inhibitor in it. A thermals store has an immersed coil and a heat
bank uses a plate heat exchanger with higher flow rates.

Both thermal stores and heat banks can provide the CH from a flow and
return
taken off the bottom of the cylinder. These are called "integrated"
stores. There are also DHW only stores and heat banks.

An unvented cylinder is similar to vented cylinder, except is used high
pressure mains water, while a vented uses low pressure water from a cold
water tank.

It is best you use a vented thermal store http://www.albion-online.co.uk
(see the Mainsflow) or heat bank (see DPS or Range) as these can be DIYed.
Some heat banks don't even need an overflow, so can be fitted in the
centre of the house.

Range and Albion products are available from most plumbers merchants.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Now if I have the boiler downstairs along with the heat bank, and the CH is
taken off the cylinder, which is unvented, I can't have radiators upstairs?

Can the radiators be feed from/through the heat exchanger? Or alternatively
I guess you pressurise the storeage cylinder as for an unvented system?

Chris

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On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:59:34 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Chris Harris" wrote in message
...


I know plenty
of people that have DIYed an unvented
cylinder.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder.

Not in this country. What is BBA?

Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to fit
a pressurised cylinder.


There's no need to be rude.

- I don't believe that Chris is in the UK....

- In the UK, the position appears to be as follows:

From the Building Regulations, 2000

Hot water storage

********************
G3. A hot water storage system that has a hot water storage
vessel which does not incorporate a vent pipe to the atmosphere shall
be installed by a person competent to do so, and there shall be
precautions -


(a) to prevent the temperature of stored water at any time exceeding
100°C; and

(b) to ensure that the hot water discharged from safety devices is
safely conveyed to where it is visible but will not cause danger to
persons in or about the building.

********************

Note that there is a requirement for competence without it being
defined, just as in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations.






From the Approved Document to Part G:

The unit or package should be installed by a competent person, i.e.
one holding a current Registered Operative Identity Card for the
installation of unvented domestic hot water storage systems issued by

a) the Construction Industry Training Board, or

b) the Institute of Plumbing, or

c) the Association of Installers of Unvented Hot Water Systems
(Scotland and Northern Ireland), or

d) individuals who are designated Registered Operatives and who are
employed by companies included on the list of approved installers
published by the BBA up to the 31st Dec 1991, or

e) an equivalent body




Notably, this says "should" and not "shall".

The IoP maintains one of the Competent Persons schemes allowing self
certification as opposed to a Building Notice.


The Statutory Instrument does not appear to preclude submitting a
building notice






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