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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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OT-143 days
"Tom Gardner" wrote:
Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#2
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OT-143 days
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
#3
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OT-143 days
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. |
#4
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OT-143 days
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) -- Ed Huntress Not my verbiage but, Obama has some serious credibility and background and lack of background problems that eliminate him from consideration in November even if he was the Republican candidate and McCain was the Democrat...unless one takes a BIG gulp of the Kool-Aid. Thirsty Ed! |
#5
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OT-143 days
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:44:26 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. From http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp I quote: In his 2006 book, IThe Audacity of Hope/I, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances: "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables." In his own words, Bama confesses to attending a Muslim school. If you're going to put down the "right-wing slime machine", at least get it right, eh? :-\ And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) So read the Snopes article, already! -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#6
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OT-143 days
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:44:26 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. From http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp I quote: In his 2006 book, IThe Audacity of Hope/I, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances: "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables." In his own words, Bama confesses to attending a Muslim school. Not exactly and I'm surprixed at your conciet Larry. Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. That is about what you would expect from a nation that although not an Islamic state, and the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, with almost 86% of Indonesians declared Muslim according to the 2000 census. By your logic, it's a testament to his Christian roots that he attended a Catholic school. If you're going to put down the "right-wing slime machine", at least get it right, eh? :-\ Great idea. Please do so. There are plenty of real issues that you could have with this guy and you look like a jerk when you choose to ignore them and select something that isn't actually even true. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
#7
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OT-143 days
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? -- Ed Huntress |
#8
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OT-143 days
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) -- Ed Huntress Not my verbiage but, Obama has some serious credibility and background and lack of background problems that eliminate him from consideration in November even if he was the Republican candidate and McCain was the Democrat...unless one takes a BIG gulp of the Kool-Aid. Thirsty Ed! Well, Tom, I sure wouldn't expect you to vote for him. It wouldn't matter what he had accomplished; you'd find a reason not to vote for anyone that someone else called "liberal." And I don't think it would matter much who made the accusation. And you have a lot of company. As it is, though, you don't have enough company to reverse the polls. This may be a close election and it still could go either way. But you won't have any part of it. Neither will Cliff, Clay, Gunner, Larry, or most of the other people here. They could hand out your ballots right now, let you vote, and be done with it. This election will be decided by the center. And those of us in the center are making up our own minds. The kind of cut-and-paste political arguments that you posted here are summarily rejected because you don't know if any of it is true; I doubt if you even went to Snopes to check out those claims. That's the politics that many of us in the center now reject out-of-hand. It's the old stuff, which gave us G.W. Bush, monstrous deficits, a war whose damage to this country won't be repaired in my lifetime [which may not be all that long d8-)], and an attitude of despair that permeates the whole country. We're about to bury those old-time attitudes for at least a generation to come. Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress |
#9
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OT-143 days
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:44:26 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. From http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp I quote: In his 2006 book, IThe Audacity of Hope/I, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances: "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school... The "Muslim" school was a public school. Note that he identified the Catholic school for what it was -- a religion-based school -- but that he called the other school "predominantly Muslim." Further investigation shows that this was a public school with predominantly Muslim students, which, like secular schools in many countries, offered some Muslim religious instruction. If Obama had anticipated what mincemeat the right would make of the facts, he might have written it differently. In the interest of full disclosure, I attended Catholic schools for about half of my elementary education. It doesn't turn one into a Catholic. ; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables." In his own words, Bama confesses to attending a Muslim school. If you're going to put down the "right-wing slime machine", at least get it right, eh? :-\ I did get it right. You just didn't dig deeply enough. You're playing the right-wingers' game here, Larry. Fortunately, as I said in an earlier message, your opinions will be irrelevant in November. We centrists will let you know then who your next president will be. d8-) And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) So read the Snopes article, already! I did. Along with about six others that deal with other points. You've hardly begun to unravel the right-wing bull****. But my guess is you've just reached the end of it. That's OK. So have I. I reject all of it, from both sides, while I look for myself. Which elementary school Obama may have attended, or what his mother's religious beliefs may have been, is only of interest to the wingers who have already decided who they're voting for and are looking for ammunition to justify their votes. We're not voting for Obama's teachers and we aren't voting for his deceased mother. No one who really cares where Obama may have spent a small fraction of his childhood is part of the body of voters who will decide this election. He's part of the committed wings. As I said to Tom, they could save a rush-hour in November by just handing your ballots out now. You aren't going to make a whit of difference. -- Ed Huntress |
#10
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OT-143 days
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:49:52 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Larry Jaques wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:44:26 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. From http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp I quote: In his 2006 book, IThe Audacity of Hope/I, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances: "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables." In his own words, Bama confesses to attending a Muslim school. Not exactly and I'm surprixed at your conciet Larry. WTF,O? g Conceit? He's the audacious one. Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school, and I'm sure he has some Muslim beliefs, whether or not he shares them openly in the Christian- controlled West. While we're in a war with Muslims, I'm not too comfy with a person with his upbringing. That is about what you would expect from a nation that although not an Islamic state, and the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, with almost 86% of Indonesians declared Muslim according to the 2000 census. By your logic, it's a testament to his Christian roots that he attended a Catholic school. For what it's worth, he's likely tainted from that, too. If you're going to put down the "right-wing slime machine", at least get it right, eh? :-\ Great idea. Please do so. There are plenty of real issues that you could have with this guy and you look like a jerk when you choose to ignore them and select something that isn't actually even true. I just did, John. You might want to check how many fingers are pointing back at you when you point out jerks in this instance. [read this sig, please] -- Deep doubts, deep wisdom; small doubts, little wisdom. --Chinese Proverb ---- |
#11
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OT-143 days
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:49:52 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Larry Jaques wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:44:26 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. From http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp I quote: In his 2006 book, IThe Audacity of Hope/I, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances: "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables." In his own words, Bama confesses to attending a Muslim school. Not exactly and I'm surprixed at your conciet Larry. WTF,O? g Conceit? He's the audacious one. Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school.... Hey, Larry, when I was a little kid, initially in public school, we recited the Lord's Prayer at the start of the day. Does that mean it was a Christian school? -- Ed Huntress |
#12
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OT-143 days
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living |
#13
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OT-143 days
"RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with governing a democratic state. If anything, it's counterproductive. See Grant, Ulysses S., or Jackson, Andrew. g I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living So did Obama. The claim that he wasn't employed in the private sector is only made by people so blindingly biased that they won't even read his biography. Those are the people who are essentially irrelevant in this election. As they say on the stock market, they have already been priced-in to the poll numbers. In other words, they're a given and their numbers won't change much. With them priced-in, the situation now is that Obama has a small lead. Any changes to that will be the result of movement by the center. That's where all the action is. -- Ed Huntress |
#14
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OT-143 days
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:15:46 -0500, RB wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote: How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. Like Grant? I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living OK, I nominate Jack Nicholson for president, Christopher Walken as VP. (Too bad Marlon Brando is dead, he'd make a dandy Secretary of State.) And I'm not dissing Reagan here, but the argument that a Hollywood career, even recognizing that Reagan was involved in Hollywood politics, is good preparation for the presidency is just plain nuts. -- Ned Simmons |
#15
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OT-143 days
Ed Huntress wrote:
"RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with governing a democratic state. If anything, it's counterproductive. See Grant, Ulysses S., or Jackson, Andrew. g I didn't say it was the ONLY qualifier, but it's a good start. I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living So did Obama. The claim that he wasn't employed in the private sector is only made by people so blindingly biased that they won't even read his biography. Community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney, taught law. None of these involved executive skills. |
#16
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OT-143 days
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:07:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:49:52 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school.... Hey, Larry, when I was a little kid, initially in public school, we recited the Lord's Prayer at the start of the day. Does that mean it was a Christian school? Good question, since -all- schools did that back then, all our money has God on it, all our pledges have God in them, etc. But that doesn't change the fact that he attended a Muslim school, does it? Speaking of which, why doesn't your man pledge during the pledge of allegiance? Is he giving us fair warning of his intentions? -- Deep doubts, deep wisdom; small doubts, little wisdom. --Chinese Proverb ---- |
#17
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OT-143 days
"RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with governing a democratic state. If anything, it's counterproductive. See Grant, Ulysses S., or Jackson, Andrew. g I didn't say it was the ONLY qualifier, but it's a good start. I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living So did Obama. The claim that he wasn't employed in the private sector is only made by people so blindingly biased that they won't even read his biography. Community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney, taught law. None of these involved executive skills. Let's see. Barack Obama, employment in the private sector: Business International Corp.; attorney at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland; founder and chairman of the board of Chicago Annenberg Challenge; board member of several other philanthropic and civil rights organizations. John McCain, employment in the private sector: One year working for his wife's father's Budweiser distributorship. Sheesh... -- Ed Huntress |
#18
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OT-143 days
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:17:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Ned
Simmons quickly quoth: On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:15:46 -0500, RB wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. Like Grant? I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living OK, I nominate Jack Nicholson for president, Christopher Walken as VP. (Too bad Marlon Brando is dead, he'd make a dandy Secretary of State.) I nominate Stallone (in 'Rambo' mode) for SecDef and Richard Marcinko for Czar of the Department of Homeland Security. Then we wouldn't need a war. It'd all be black ops (for a million times less money), it'd be all over and done in a month, and we could then start paying down the deficit. Hmm, who can we find to start pruning the gov't teat of agencies? A good libertarian would help. How about Ron Paul? And let's replace all the aides to CONgress with homeless folks. They'd put the pompous asses in their places and help them get in touch with the reality of life on the streets here in the USA for the first time in their elitist lives. -- Deep doubts, deep wisdom; small doubts, little wisdom. --Chinese Proverb ---- |
#19
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OT-143 days
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:49:52 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Larry Jaques wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:44:26 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. Muslim schools or Madras' are run by muslim religious orders in the same way that Catholic parochial schools are run by Catholic religious orders. Public high Schools here in the United States for example could not realistically be refered to as "Christian" in spite of the fact that the student body is made up overwhelmingly of "Christians". You seem to be missing the point of your mischaractarization Larry. The only point you could ossibly want to make is that Barak Obama has terrorist associations of some sort. Why not just say that instead of making misleading and untrue pronouncements? That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school, and I'm sure he has some Muslim beliefs, whether or not he shares them openly in the Christian- controlled West. While we're in a war with Muslims, I'm not too comfy with a person with his upbringing. See my comment above. Also, we aren't in a "war" with anyone, certainly not Muslims Larry. We are suffering from the hangover of cowardice. Nothing more. That is about what you would expect from a nation that although not an Islamic state, and the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, with almost 86% of Indonesians declared Muslim according to the 2000 census. By your logic, it's a testament to his Christian roots that he attended a Catholic school. For what it's worth, he's likely tainted from that, too. If you're going to put down the "right-wing slime machine", at least get it right, eh? :-\ Great idea. Please do so. There are plenty of real issues that you could have with this guy and you look like a jerk when you choose to ignore them and select something that isn't actually even true. I just did, John. You might want to check how many fingers are pointing back at you when you point out jerks in this instance. [read this sig, please] I did and there is another wording of the same sentiment that I prefer. As it happens, I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure exactly what a President Obama would end up meaning nor am I sure how a President McCain would play out. I'm convinced of is - the chances of getting to the bottom of 8 years of a Republican administration that has elevated themselves, men, to a position above the law in a country founded on the principals of equal justice under the law and one law for all men is a bigger issue than Barak Obama's fantasy Muslim life or education. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
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OT-143 days
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:07:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:49:52 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school.... Hey, Larry, when I was a little kid, initially in public school, we recited the Lord's Prayer at the start of the day. Does that mean it was a Christian school? Good question, since -all- schools did that back then, all our money has God on it, all our pledges have God in them, etc. But that doesn't change the fact that he attended a Muslim school, does it? Yeah, I think it does change that "fact." The school was a public school, not a religious school. Like my kindergarten, they said prayers in there. We talked a lot about God and Jesus, too. Speaking of which, why doesn't your man pledge during the pledge of allegiance? Is he giving us fair warning of his intentions? What the hell are you smoking now? -- Ed Huntress |
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OT-143 days
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:21:02 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. Muslim schools or Madras' are run by muslim religious orders in the same way that Catholic parochial schools are run by Catholic religious orders. And religion is pushed on you while there. I went to Trinity Cathedral (an Episcopal school) in Little Rock in 2nd grade. They didn't push much, 1/2 hour chapel IIRC, but there was an air of religion the whole day through. Since Islamic law comes directly from their religion, I'd be willing to bet that a Muslim school pushes religion much more heavily. Sisters with rulers ain't got nuttin' on dem. g And his father was Muslim, providing more influence in his young, formative life. Public high Schools here in the United States for example could not realistically be refered to as "Christian" in spite of the fact that the student body is made up overwhelmingly of "Christians". You seem to be missing the point of your mischaractarization Larry. The only point you could ossibly want to make is that Barak Obama has terrorist associations of some sort. The man said, in print, that he went to a predominantly Muslim school. Who the hell are we to argue with him? Why not just say that instead of making misleading and untrue pronouncements? Because that's not true. I had intimated that I mistrust/have doubts about the man due to his background. Now I've stated it in clear English. Ya grok? That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school, and I'm sure he has some Muslim beliefs, whether or not he shares them openly in the Christian- controlled West. While we're in a war with Muslims, I'm not too comfy with a person with his upbringing. See my comment above. Also, we aren't in a "war" with anyone, certainly not Muslims Larry. We are suffering from the hangover of cowardice. Nothing more. Oh, right. It's a "civil action" with 3k+ dead, similar to the "police action" of Vietnam. My mistake. If we're not at war with terrorists, -all- of whom seem to be fanatic fundamentalist Muslims, what do you want to call it? BTW, I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm anti-fundamentalist and anti-terrorist. What bugs me is that I'm _not_ sure that Obama isn't one of them. He bothers me on many levels, one of which is that (given the few sound bites I've heard of him) he sounds and acts just like a black version of Slick Willie. Scary. Please explain your phrase "hangover of cowardice." [read this sig, please] I did and there is another wording of the same sentiment that I prefer. As it happens, I couldn't agree more. Bueno, bwana. I'm not sure exactly what a President Obama would end up meaning nor am I sure how a President McCain would play out. Unfortunately, neither am I. Once again, we're faced with making a decision for President who is the lesser of two possible evils. I'm convinced of is - the chances of getting to the bottom of 8 years of a Republican administration that has elevated themselves, men, to a position above the law in a country founded on the principals of equal justice under the law and one law for all men is a bigger issue than Barak Obama's fantasy Muslim life or education. Both are extremely important issues to be dealt with, and SOON! -- Deep doubts, deep wisdom; small doubts, little wisdom. --Chinese Proverb ---- |
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OT-143 days
Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) -- Ed Huntress Not my verbiage but, Obama has some serious credibility and background and lack of background problems that eliminate him from consideration in November even if he was the Republican candidate and McCain was the Democrat...unless one takes a BIG gulp of the Kool-Aid. Thirsty Ed! You think that we should be afraid of what Obama might do if he's elected president? You should be more afraid of what John McCain will do if he's elected president? If you look at all the major issues you will find that McCain agrees with the position that Bush has on at least 90% of them. McCain is not an agent of change he's someone who will continue the course we've been on for the last eight years. He might make a few changes around the margins but will mainly be very much like Bush. In case you haven't noticed the country is in a real mess and that is after two terms of republicans making all the decisions. But you are more worried about what Obama might do when you know that McCain will keep doing what has put us where we are now. That makes no sense. I'm sorry, but a rational person would be far more fearful of another four years of what we have now than of anything Obama might do. And I don't know about you but the 19% drop in the stock market is enough for me to want to see another administration running the White House than one where McCain is in charge. And by the way, McCain has never held anything in his life but government jobs and has zero experience in any kind of administrative position, so don't assume he'll be any better at it than Obama would. Hawke |
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OT-143 days
Ed Huntress wrote:
"RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with governing a democratic state. If anything, it's counterproductive. See Grant, Ulysses S., or Jackson, Andrew. g I didn't say it was the ONLY qualifier, but it's a good start. I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living So did Obama. The claim that he wasn't employed in the private sector is only made by people so blindingly biased that they won't even read his biography. Community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney, taught law. None of these involved executive skills. Let's see. Barack Obama, employment in the private sector: Business International Corp.; attorney at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland; founder and chairman of the board of Chicago Annenberg Challenge; board member of several other philanthropic and civil rights organizations. John McCain, employment in the private sector: One year working for his wife's father's Budweiser distributorship. Sheesh... Come one, Ed, you of all people I would expect to be evenhanded here. How can you possibly think that is an equitable portrayal of their respective resumes? I have no love lost for McCain, but his resume is about as impressive as any candidate for the office in my lifetime. The closest comparable resume is JFK, except McCain has a couple decades more experience. OTOH, Obama's is the weakest. I am just amazed he has gotten as far as he has. I think it's a sad reflection on the American electorate -or perhaps the public education system. You sure don't sound very centrist here. I suspect you are more like the rest of us, in that no matter where your views fall in the political spectrum, you see yourself as centrist. |
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OT-143 days
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:17:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Ned Simmons quickly quoth: On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:15:46 -0500, RB wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. Like Grant? I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living OK, I nominate Jack Nicholson for president, Christopher Walken as VP. (Too bad Marlon Brando is dead, he'd make a dandy Secretary of State.) I nominate Stallone (in 'Rambo' mode) for SecDef and Richard Marcinko for Czar of the Department of Homeland Security. Then we wouldn't need a war. It'd all be black ops (for a million times less money), it'd be all over and done in a month, and we could then start paying down the deficit. Don't laugh too hard. We made the most progress in Afghanistan when the Army Special forces and the CIA were working with the Afghan Northern Army (?). They basically had the war won with a few hundred pairs of boots backed up by air and logistics, using Afghans to do their own dirty work. Then we brought in NATO and regular troops, and progress slowed. |
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OT-143 days
"RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "RB" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote: Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with governing a democratic state. If anything, it's counterproductive. See Grant, Ulysses S., or Jackson, Andrew. g I didn't say it was the ONLY qualifier, but it's a good start. I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living So did Obama. The claim that he wasn't employed in the private sector is only made by people so blindingly biased that they won't even read his biography. Community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney, taught law. None of these involved executive skills. Let's see. Barack Obama, employment in the private sector: Business International Corp.; attorney at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland; founder and chairman of the board of Chicago Annenberg Challenge; board member of several other philanthropic and civil rights organizations. John McCain, employment in the private sector: One year working for his wife's father's Budweiser distributorship. Sheesh... Come one, Ed, you of all people I would expect to be evenhanded here. How can you possibly think that is an equitable portrayal of their respective resumes? That wasn't the issue. What you said was that "at least [Reagan] was employed in the private sector," and then, when it was pointed out that Obama had worked in the private sector for Business International and as an attorney, you switched the field to "executive skills," for which Obama was an executive for several organizations, including founder and chairman of one, while McCain was a mid-level military officer. Where are you switching the field to now, RB? I have no love lost for McCain, but his resume is about as impressive as any candidate for the office in my lifetime. What in the hell are you talking about? Navy captain with no sea command? Good job, but a couple of levels down. Senator? Not an executive position. The closest comparable resume is JFK, except McCain has a couple decades more experience. OTOH, Obama's is the weakest. I am just amazed he has gotten as far as he has. I think it's a sad reflection on the American electorate -or perhaps the public education system. You sure don't sound very centrist here. I suspect you are more like the rest of us, in that no matter where your views fall in the political spectrum, you see yourself as centrist. Try knocking McCain and see what happens. d8-) I said earlier that I'm favoring Obama at this point, but I want to watch carefully through the rest of the campaign. I'm sure about Obama on foreign policy but not yet sure about domestic. I like both of these guys. I just think that McCain's locked into some Republican postures that would be disastrous. For example, continuing these tax cuts while we're running deficits is close to insanity, but McCain won't be able to make any significant reductions in the budget as long as this war continues. That could just bury our economy in another few years. What I see is a lot of justification for decisions already made. I'm not so interested in defending Obama as in correcting some of the record (a futile thing when people ignore the fact that McCain has no experience in the private sector, and then criticize Obama for having little of it...are we all paying attention here?). Most of all, I like to reflect on the fact that I'm not hearing the sounds of people rolling over the options. I'm hearing the sounds of people justifying their purchases. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
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OT-143 days
Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller Nope, somebody sent it to me but, although it's not flattering to Obama, it shows some points of consideration, most of which is irrefutable. And, like Gunner points out, is 143 days as a Senator enough experience to lead the country? He's an empty suit. How many days did Ronald Reagan serve in national office, either in the Senate or the Post Office, before becoming president? I'd ask the same about George Bush, but that wouldn't make the point. d8-). How about Eisenhower? I would consider military service a good qualifier. I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with governing a democratic state. If anything, it's counterproductive. See Grant, Ulysses S., or Jackson, Andrew. g I didn't say it was the ONLY qualifier, but it's a good start. I don't know about Reagan, but at least he was employed in the private sector. i.e earned an honest living So did Obama. The claim that he wasn't employed in the private sector is only made by people so blindingly biased that they won't even read his biography. Community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney, taught law. None of these involved executive skills. Let's see. Barack Obama, employment in the private sector: Business International Corp.; attorney at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland; founder and chairman of the board of Chicago Annenberg Challenge; board member of several other philanthropic and civil rights organizations. John McCain, employment in the private sector: One year working for his wife's father's Budweiser distributorship. Sheesh... Come one, Ed, you of all people I would expect to be evenhanded here. How can you possibly think that is an equitable portrayal of their respective resumes? That wasn't the issue. What you said was that "at least [Reagan] was employed in the private sector," and then, when it was pointed out that Obama had worked in the private sector for Business International and as an attorney, you switched the field to "executive skills," for which Obama was an executive for several organizations, including founder and chairman of one, while McCain was a mid-level military officer. Where are you switching the field to now, RB? I have no love lost for McCain, but his resume is about as impressive as any candidate for the office in my lifetime. What in the hell are you talking about? Navy captain with no sea command? Good job, but a couple of levels down. Senator? Not an executive position. The closest comparable resume is JFK, except McCain has a couple decades more experience. OTOH, Obama's is the weakest. I am just amazed he has gotten as far as he has. I think it's a sad reflection on the American electorate -or perhaps the public education system. You sure don't sound very centrist here. I suspect you are more like the rest of us, in that no matter where your views fall in the political spectrum, you see yourself as centrist. Try knocking McCain and see what happens. d8-) I said earlier that I'm favoring Obama at this point, but I want to watch carefully through the rest of the campaign. I'm sure about Obama on foreign policy but not yet sure about domestic. I like both of these guys. I just think that McCain's locked into some Republican postures that would be disastrous. For example, continuing these tax cuts while we're running deficits is close to insanity, but McCain won't be able to make any significant reductions in the budget as long as this war continues. That could just bury our economy in another few years. What I see is a lot of justification for decisions already made. I'm not so interested in defending Obama as in correcting some of the record (a futile thing when people ignore the fact that McCain has no experience in the private sector, and then criticize Obama for having little of it...are we all paying attention here?). Most of all, I like to reflect on the fact that I'm not hearing the sounds of people rolling over the options. I'm hearing the sounds of people justifying their purchases. d8 Of course that is what you are hearing. You are hearing from hard core right wingers. What do you expect them to be saying? They like to pretend that they are reasonable and make decisions on the facts but the truth is that they only vote for republicans. Doesn't matter if it's Bob Dole, George Bush, one or two, or McCain. They only vote republican. They start out knowing where they are going to end up and along the way they cherry pick anything that supports their choice. They also look for and support every argument against every other candidate. They are very diligent in finding every possible flaw with everyone else but they let giant faults slide when it comes to the republican candidate. They're just are not that smart. It's all emotions for them. It doesn't matter what the facts are because they will twist them every which way to make their party's candidate sound great. They are not reasonable and they choose a candidate emotionally not rationally. That's why they are republicans. The other thing is that they are all afraid to admit the truth that none of them would ever vote for a black person. They would deny that and say if a black republican was running they would not have a problem voting for him. But deep down they know there will never be a black republican candidate for president in their lifetimes. They think that makes their racism seem less obvious. But it's still a fact they won't vote for a black man, period. They're voting republican. When you get down to it nothing matters to them but that. So there is no point trying to talk to them about it. Their minds have been made up since they were in their teens. The term for those guys is pig headed. Hawke |
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OT-143 days
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:21:02 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: Apparently, and from your quote, the school was "predominantly Muslim" and not a "Muslim" school or Madras. A "predominantly Muslim school" _is_ a Muslim school John. Muslim schools or Madras' are run by muslim religious orders in the same way that Catholic parochial schools are run by Catholic religious orders. And religion is pushed on you while there. I went to Trinity Cathedral (an Episcopal school) in Little Rock in 2nd grade. They didn't push much, 1/2 hour chapel IIRC, but there was an air of religion the whole day through. Since Islamic law comes directly from their religion, I'd be willing to bet that a Muslim school pushes religion much more heavily. Sisters with rulers ain't got nuttin' on dem. g And his father was Muslim, providing more influence in his young, formative life. Public high Schools here in the United States for example could not realistically be refered to as "Christian" in spite of the fact that the student body is made up overwhelmingly of "Christians". You seem to be missing the point of your mischaractarization Larry. The only point you could ossibly want to make is that Barak Obama has terrorist associations of some sort. The man said, in print, that he went to a predominantly Muslim school. Who the hell are we to argue with him? Actually, the unredacted version was this and not what you are infering: "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables." Why not just say that instead of making misleading and untrue pronouncements? Because that's not true. I had intimated that I mistrust/have doubts about the man due to his background. Now I've stated it in clear English. Ya grok? What I "grok" is that your understanding of his background is both limited and pretty selectively so. You'll be out there really researching this if he's elected and that will be a shame. The time to learn about a candidate is while they are candidates and not after they've been elected. That adjective is merely the legal weasel's way of saying "absolutely everyone but me", I'm sure. His father was Muslim, he went to school for awhile in a Muslim school, and I'm sure he has some Muslim beliefs, whether or not he shares them openly in the Christian- controlled West. While we're in a war with Muslims, I'm not too comfy with a person with his upbringing. See my comment above. Also, we aren't in a "war" with anyone, certainly not Muslims Larry. We are suffering from the hangover of cowardice. Nothing more. Oh, right. It's a "civil action" with 3k+ dead, similar to the "police action" of Vietnam. My mistake. You are mistaking a crime for something else, that's all. If we're not at war with terrorists, -all- of whom seem to be fanatic fundamentalist Muslims, what do you want to call it? BTW, I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm anti-fundamentalist and anti-terrorist. Let me help you out here Larry. "Some of my best friends are black". How's that? LOL What bugs me is that I'm _not_ sure that Obama isn't one of them. He bothers me on many levels, one of which is that (given the few sound bites I've heard of him) he sounds and acts just like a black version of Slick Willie. Scary. Please explain your phrase "hangover of cowardice." Not right now and it isn't necessary. You understood my remark and the truth underlying it. I've just finished a one day trip from LA to NASA Glenn and back. You can take solice in the fact that my transportation was a Falcon 50 so I've created a large enough carbon footprint today for both of us. BTW, Colin Powell has been asked to keynote at the Dem convention. I think he'll accept and if that happens you can run his remarks side by side with Zell Millers 2004 convention adress and you will see in short order what the practical implications of courage vs cowardice are. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
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OT-143 days
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. |
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"Hawke" wrote in message .. . Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) -- Ed Huntress Not my verbiage but, Obama has some serious credibility and background and lack of background problems that eliminate him from consideration in November even if he was the Republican candidate and McCain was the Democrat...unless one takes a BIG gulp of the Kool-Aid. Thirsty Ed! You think that we should be afraid of what Obama might do if he's elected president? You should be more afraid of what John McCain will do if he's elected president? If you look at all the major issues you will find that McCain agrees with the position that Bush has on at least 90% of them. McCain is not an agent of change he's someone who will continue the course we've been on for the last eight years. He might make a few changes around the margins but will mainly be very much like Bush. In case you haven't noticed the country is in a real mess and that is after two terms of republicans making all the decisions. But you are more worried about what Obama might do when you know that McCain will keep doing what has put us where we are now. That makes no sense. I'm sorry, but a rational person would be far more fearful of another four years of what we have now than of anything Obama might do. And I don't know about you but the 19% drop in the stock market is enough for me to want to see another administration running the White House than one where McCain is in charge. And by the way, McCain has never held anything in his life but government jobs and has zero experience in any kind of administrative position, so don't assume he'll be any better at it than Obama would. Hawke Like I told Ed, I may not vote. Whoever is elected, I think I'm prepared. |
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OT-143 days
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. -- Ed Huntress |
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OT-143 days
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:21:02 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "John R. Carroll" quickly quoth: If we're not at war with terrorists, -all- of whom seem to be fanatic fundamentalist Muslims, what do you want to call it? BTW, I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm anti-fundamentalist and anti-terrorist. What bugs me is that I'm _not_ sure that Obama isn't one of them. He bothers me on many levels, one of which is that (given the few sound bites I've heard of him) he sounds and acts just like a black version of Slick Willie. Scary. Please explain your phrase "hangover of cowardice." Here you go Larry. You can find real courage by having a look at the address Washington made to those assembled at Newburg church. We've seen exactly the sort of mutiny against the country and constitution in our own time but by the Executive, not the military. http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache...k&c d=1&gl=us Conclusions Government by democracy necessarily entails the danger of mob rule because majorities are given lots of power in democratic government. However, in the United States the tyranny of the majority has been combated by the Bill of Rights, which outlines certain protections for all citizens, and by the creation of an extended republic in which multiple interests exist making tyranny of any one interest more difficult. However, irrational majorities seeking to infringe on the rights of the targeted minority group have throughout its history overcome the United States. Our examination of the history of mob violence in America, the treatment of those with unpopular ideological beliefs, and those whose race becomes identified with the "enemy" all illustrate how easily a "frightened mob" can be formed and how tenuous our constitutional protections become in the face of such a mob. Courts and legislators have worked hard to identify what constitutes a riot or mob and have tried to strike a reasonable, unprejudiced balance between maintenance of order and protection of individual liberties. However, the men and women who serve on the courts do not live outside of their times; they read the newspaper and interact with society just as all other people. This interaction then makes judges and Justices susceptible to the propaganda and feelings of hysteria that may occur at any given time. Although judges and Justices are charged with protecting the rights of the minorities when they are threatened sometimes the judges and Justices are unable to recognize the existence of a "frightened mob" and are influenced by the hysteria the mob creates. Clearly, the treatment of Communists and socialists throughout much of this nation's history demonstrates how weak constitutional protections are for those whose views are unpopular or labeled "dangerous." In addition, treatment of the Japanese during World War II shows how easily minorities can be denied even their most basic freedoms when a "mob" is given unchecked influence in deciding their fate. In each of these cases a certain group whether it be communists, socialists, or the Japanese was viewed as a threat to the social order and so their rights were taken away. The greatest measure of a free society is how well it maintains those freedoms under periods of stress. It is easy to guarantee freedoms when there is no risk involved but it is during times of war, great change, or controversy that our fundamental freedoms take on their greatest significance because they can be used to guarantee our participation in the movement at hand. However, as our examination of the effects of the frightened mob upon the law has demonstrated, the United States does not have a strong record of defense of those fundamental rights during times of stress. It takes simply an irrational majority to deny the rights of a minority. When the guardians of the law and the Constitution fail to prevent these denials of rights the sanctity of the Constitution and the democratic system are weakened. -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
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OT-143 days
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Hawke" wrote in message .. . Do I have this straight? His father was a black African Muslim from Kenya. [snip] Wow. Is this your writing? Nice set of talking points either way. Wes It's not Tom's writing. It's a pack of mostly lies that's circulating on all the right-wing hate sites. For example, I've seen several photos of Obama's American family. They probably don't show them on Faux News, so the righties don't see them. g Obama attended both a public and a Catholic school in Indonesia. Neither one was a "Muslim" school. And so on, and on, and on. Snopes goes into this stuff in detail. The right-wing slime machine is in top gear, cranking out this stuff for people like you to believe without question. d8-) -- Ed Huntress Not my verbiage but, Obama has some serious credibility and background and lack of background problems that eliminate him from consideration in November even if he was the Republican candidate and McCain was the Democrat...unless one takes a BIG gulp of the Kool-Aid. Thirsty Ed! You think that we should be afraid of what Obama might do if he's elected president? You should be more afraid of what John McCain will do if he's elected president? If you look at all the major issues you will find that McCain agrees with the position that Bush has on at least 90% of them. McCain is not an agent of change he's someone who will continue the course we've been on for the last eight years. He might make a few changes around the margins but will mainly be very much like Bush. In case you haven't noticed the country is in a real mess and that is after two terms of republicans making all the decisions. But you are more worried about what Obama might do when you know that McCain will keep doing what has put us where we are now. That makes no sense. I'm sorry, but a rational person would be far more fearful of another four years of what we have now than of anything Obama might do. And I don't know about you but the 19% drop in the stock market is enough for me to want to see another administration running the White House than one where McCain is in charge. And by the way, McCain has never held anything in his life but government jobs and has zero experience in any kind of administrative position, so don't assume he'll be any better at it than Obama would. Hawke Like I told Ed, I may not vote. Whoever is elected, I think I'm prepared. Yeah, that is the fundamental weakness in our system, what do you do when you don't like the candidates of either party? This time we have a choice of a stay the course candidate or an unknown new guy we have no idea how he'll govern. Great choices. Pick one or stay home. Doesn't make democracy seem all that great does it? Hawke |
#33
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OT-143 days
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. Come on, Ed. It's an easy choice. Hawke |
#34
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OT-143 days
Hawke wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. Come on, Ed. It's an easy choice. It really isn't. Also, what's the rush? These two have miles to go before they are done and will face each other in public debates. There will be plenty left to see and digest and lots of time to do it. For example, if Obama doesn't outright demolish McCain in their first meeting, McCain will be percieved as the winner. It's as easy for McCain to exceed expectations as it will be for Obama to fall short. Hillary Clinton is a very recent and high profile example of a presumed winner falling right on her ass, and in less than four months. Have you forgotten that lesson already? -- John R. Carroll www.machiningsolution.com |
#35
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OT-143 days
"Hawke" wrote in message . .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. Come on, Ed. It's an easy choice. Hawke We'll see for sure when Obama's domestic policy ideas get a good airing. -- Ed Huntress |
#36
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OT-143 days
Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. Come on, Ed. It's an easy choice. It really isn't. Also, what's the rush? These two have miles to go before they are done and will face each other in public debates. There will be plenty left to see and digest and lots of time to do it. For example, if Obama doesn't outright demolish McCain in their first meeting, McCain will be percieved as the winner. It's as easy for McCain to exceed expectations as it will be for Obama to fall short. Hillary Clinton is a very recent and high profile example of a presumed winner falling right on her ass, and in less than four months. Have you forgotten that lesson already? Nope. But come election day it's going to come down to pick one from column A or one from column B. If you want four more years like the last eight you take McCain. If you want something different you take the other guy. To me that's as simple as it gets. Hell, I only get two to choose from! Hawke |
#37
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OT-143 days
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Hawke" wrote in message . .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. Come on, Ed. It's an easy choice. Hawke We'll see for sure when Obama's domestic policy ideas get a good airing. -- Ed Huntress Ed, Do you see any VP choice that McCain can make that will actually gain him votes? From here it looks like picking a more moderate VP will chase out the base, and a conservative choice will kill the appeal he has with some centrists. He seems to need an economics person most, but that isn't a place for real "sexy" running mates. On the other side, Obama needs a foreign policy person, or an older more seasoned Statesman, and somebody like Richardson could really bring him a bunch of foreign policy respect. Stuart |
#38
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OT-143 days
"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Hawke" wrote in message . .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... snip Whichever way the center votes, it will be a rejection of the ideologues. The liberals had their run and the conservatives did too. Both of you are failures. Now it's time for a fresh look and some shaking up of the old guard. Obama may be the most likely person to do it in a couple of generations. Or maybe not. We'll be watching to see, between now and November, and you and the other partisans will have nothing to do with how we decide. -- Ed Huntress Actually, I don't know IF I'll vote. It depends on the local stuff. I may posture as a Conservative but I don't drink that Kool-Aid either. Whoever is elected, I have contingencies to prevent too much of an impact...I hope. There's an allowance in the statistics for people who won't vote. d8-) I don't know what it is you want in a president, Tom. What you have here is two of the best candidates we've had in a very long time. This is one election in which I don't think we'll be voting for the least-worst. I just want to be sure I've done my best to pick the better of the two. Come on, Ed. It's an easy choice. Hawke We'll see for sure when Obama's domestic policy ideas get a good airing. -- Ed Huntress Ed, Do you see any VP choice that McCain can make that will actually gain him votes? From here it looks like picking a more moderate VP will chase out the base, and a conservative choice will kill the appeal he has with some centrists. He seems to need an economics person most, but that isn't a place for real "sexy" running mates. I don't have a clue, Stuart. I'm not paying much attention to the right-of-center coalitions that are lining up (or not) behind McCain. I don't fully understand the right's objections to him. He looks like a pretty solid conservative to me, although he's still a bit of a maverick. I can't believe those people would shoot themselves in the foot by staying home, but I can't really identify with their thinking, anyway. On the other side, Obama needs a foreign policy person, or an older more seasoned Statesman, and somebody like Richardson could really bring him a bunch of foreign policy respect. I suspect he'd pick a good cabinet, as would McCain. Neither one of those guys is so helpless that he'd be a pawn of his own cabinet, the way Bush has been. -- Ed Huntress |
#39
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OT-143 days
John R. Carroll wrote in article ... It really isn't. Also, what's the rush? These two have miles to go before they are done and will face each other in public debates. There will be plenty left to see and digest and lots of time to do it. For example, if Obama doesn't outright demolish McCain in their first meeting, McCain will be percieved as the winner. It's as easy for McCain to exceed expectations as it will be for Obama to fall short. Hillary Clinton is a very recent and high profile example of a presumed winner falling right on her ass, and in less than four months. Have you forgotten that lesson already? Like MOST DUMBocrats, Tweety Bird is a slow learner......He rode in the short schoolbus as a child...... |
#40
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OT-143 days
Hawke wrote in article .. . Yeah, that is the fundamental weakness in our system, what do you do when you don't like the candidates of either party? This time we have a choice of a stay the course candidate or an unknown new guy we have no idea how he'll govern. Great choices. Pick one or stay home. Doesn't make democracy seem all that great does it? Hawke Or, you could do the counbtry a favor and officially become an expatriot. I say "officially" because you exhibit all the characteristics of anti-American behaviour and thought. |
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