I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.

With biodiesel so cheap (free for me) and less toxic than water
according to the MSDS, I was thinking of using it as a flood
coolant/lubricant. Does anyone know of any major disadvantages of using
biodiesel in this way?

-ben lipkowitz

On 19 Mar 2005 12:40:57 -0800, "mow4212345" wrote:

I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.

With biodiesel so cheap (free for me) and less toxic than water
according to the MSDS, I was thinking of using it as a flood
coolant/lubricant. Does anyone know of any major disadvantages of using
biodiesel in this way?

-ben lipkowitz
Greetings Ben,
I can't say for sure about the bio diesel but regular diesel makes a
pretty good cutting oil for aluminum. But it stinks more than kerosene
which is as good. Since you can get the stuff free why don't you try
it on a little aluminum?
ERS

I cannot believe that anyone would use diesel fuel as cutting oil. I
get a headache from just smelling it.

Is biodiesel the same stinky stuff as "normal" diesel?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
http://www.autodrill.com
http://www.multi-drill.com

V8013

Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/lis...rides_yunx.com

"Joe" wrote in message
news:3h6%d.23363$FB6.21811@trndny09...
I cannot believe that anyone would use diesel fuel as cutting oil. I
get a headache from just smelling it.

Is biodiesel the same stinky stuff as "normal" diesel?

No. It's chemically treated cooking oil. Some of it starts as waste oil from
fast-food joints. No kidding.

--
Ed Huntress

Is biodiesel the same stinky stuff as "normal" diesel?

No. It's chemically treated cooking oil. Some of it starts as waste oil
from
fast-food joints. No kidding.


There must be more than one meaning of BioDiesel. Here in MN, there putting
up a lot of pilot plants for manufacturing diesel from soybeans. A 2% blend
is being used in many public vehicles and farm supply outlets.

FWIW, Crown Manufacturing is the company around here developing this
technology. My son made a huge number of parts for their soy processing
plants when he worked for them.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" remove .NOT to reply wrote
in message news

Is biodiesel the same stinky stuff as "normal" diesel?

No. It's chemically treated cooking oil. Some of it starts as waste oil
from
fast-food joints. No kidding.


There must be more than one meaning of BioDiesel. Here in MN, there
putting
up a lot of pilot plants for manufacturing diesel from soybeans. A 2%
blend
is being used in many public vehicles and farm supply outlets.

It's really just one meaning. There is an entire cottage industry of people
who are making their own, scrounging used vegetable oil from McDonald's
etc., filtering it through paper filters, and then treating it with
something -- maybe lye, I don't remember.

I read a couple of articles about it last year and these must be some
characters. They're very scientific about it. Apparently they prefer 5-cyl.
Mercedes-Benz engines from some years ago, which they say are the toughest
and most forgiving diesels around.

Anyway, they run it straight. If you blend it with regular diesel, it's a
biodiesel blend, which must be what they're using out where you are. And, if
they're making it from pristine soybean oil, that should make the soybean
farmers pretty happy. After all, how many Freedom Fries would we have to eat
to produce that much used grease? g

--
Ed Huntress

On 20 Mar 2005 04:26:32 GMT, Ignoramus3417
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:40:47 GMT, Joe wrote:
I cannot believe that anyone would use diesel fuel as cutting oil. I
get a headache from just smelling it.

Is biodiesel the same stinky stuff as "normal" diesel?


No, but the previous post mentioned using regular diesel fuel as
cutting oil.

i
That was me. It does stink. And I can't stand the smell of diesel
anymore. But I worked in a lumbermill many moons ago and the
cheapskate owner had us using siesel for aluminum cutting oil.
Fortunately I didn't work there vey long. And eventually the owner's
greediness landed him in jail. After an investigation my the CA
Attorney General.
ERS

I've been hearing a lot about biodiesel for an alternative clean, no toxic
emissions fuel. I've heard that it can be brewed anywhere, without any
safety hazards to the maker, so I suppose that it will gain a small or
moderate number of users. If it isn't hazardous and doesn't require imported
materials (lots of soybean farmers and cooking byproducts here at home), it
might gain a lot of popularity. I think I heard that Al Gore invented it.

I've been using a cutting lube marketed by Lenox (the saw blade company)
called Pro Tool Lube which doesn't appear to be any type of petroleum
product, and the label states that it doesn't contain silicone. It's
available at Fastenal distributors.
I dunno about esters and that stuff (knew an Ester once, but I called her
Eileen because she only had one leg).
It could be vegetable oil based, but I don't think I'll try frying baby seal
steaks or turtle eggs in it.

It seems to be a great product for steel, stainless, brass, hard synthetics
and aluminum.
In my limited HSM machining operations, it works great for turning, milling,
knurling, drilling, sawing and tapping. I'm convinced that it contributes to
longer bandsaw blade life.
It doesn't promote rust or corrosion, and actually seems to have inhibitors
in it, since my steel parts don't rust quickly even after using a water
rinse.
It's nearly clear, water soluable and about the same appearance as liquid
dish soap, and it has almost no odor until it gets hot enough to smoke, even
then it's low on the stink scale.

The one unusual characteristic is that it softens or blisters many common
(enamels) paint coatings that it gets on. It doesn't appear to leave any
residue after water rinsing that effects primer or paint adhesion.
I don't have any lube delivery systems, so I just brush it on or dribble it
in place from a dispenser bottle.

WB
...............

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.

With biodiesel so cheap (free for me) and less toxic than water
according to the MSDS, I was thinking of using it as a flood
coolant/lubricant. Does anyone know of any major disadvantages of using
biodiesel in this way?

-ben lipkowitz





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

If it isn't hazardous and doesn't require imported
materials (lots of soybean farmers and cooking byproducts here at home),
it
might gain a lot of popularity. I think I heard that Al Gore invented it.

Gee ,I didn't know Al Gore was British!

"Wild Bill" wrote in
:

I've been hearing a lot about biodiesel for an alternative clean, no
toxic emissions fuel. I've heard that it can be brewed anywhere,
without any safety hazards to the maker, so I suppose that it will
gain a small or moderate number of users. If it isn't hazardous and
doesn't require imported materials (lots of soybean farmers and
cooking byproducts here at home), it might gain a lot of popularity. I
think I heard that Al Gore invented it.


Actually, it's what Herr Diesel originally had in mind as a fuel for his
engine!

Peanut oil is the basis for many water emulsion coolants.

LLoyd

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.

On 3/21/05 8:15 AM, in article
, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:

Peanut oil is the basis for many water emulsion coolants.

LLoyd

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.




I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and I am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...


The one unusual characteristic is that it softens or blisters many common
(enamels) paint coatings that it gets on. It doesn't appear to leave any
residue after water rinsing that effects primer or paint adhesion.
I don't have any lube delivery systems, so I just brush it on or dribble
it
in place from a dispenser bottle.

WB
..............

I tried a few soybean based paint removers which were quite effective,
although I later found out they contained about 50% NMP, which is more
benign than methylene chloride but not quite the green product they led me
to believe. One of the manufacturers did claim that the soybean product
worked synergistically with the NMP. I suspected it was BS but maybe they
were right.

"Jaggy Taggy" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/05 8:15 AM, in article
, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:

Peanut oil is the basis for many water emulsion coolants.

LLoyd

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.




I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long you have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add (gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have it on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold

From: "Harold and Susan Vordos"
Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:05:28 -0800
Subject: biodiesel as cutting fluid?


"Jaggy Taggy" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/05 8:15 AM, in article
, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:

Peanut oil is the basis for many water emulsion coolants.

LLoyd

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.




I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long you have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add (gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have it on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold


Thanks, you made my day

Uwe

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:05:28 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Jaggy Taggy" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/05 8:15 AM, in article
, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:

Peanut oil is the basis for many water emulsion coolants.

LLoyd

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.




I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long you have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add (gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have it on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold



Could it be Harold that the reason you don't know anybody adversly
affected is because they are dead?
ERS

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:05:28 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Jaggy Taggy" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/05 8:15 AM, in article
, "Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh"
wrote:

Peanut oil is the basis for many water emulsion coolants.

LLoyd

"mow4212345" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've seen various "natural" cutting and tapping fluids such as
"tapmatic natural" which claim to be esters of some sort of
vegetable
oil. They also have a "citrus spice" scent which leads me to believe
they are either an ester of orange oil or a mix of orange oil and
biodiesel. My bedroom is right next door to my lathe so I don't
relish
the thought of regularly using sulfurized cutting oil or kerosene.




I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting
is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes
and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and
I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as
they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long you
have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add
(gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have it
on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has
suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off
your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold



Could it be Harold that the reason you don't know anybody adversly
affected is because they are dead?
ERS

Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am, but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

As I said, I don't think I'd lose any sleep if exposed to the things we use
in the shop, but I'd certainly avoid any unnecessary contact.

Talk about taking risk------how many people worry about being exposed to
solvents, all the while reaching for their cigarette?

Harold

SNIP



Could it be Harold that the reason you don't know anybody adversly
affected is because they are dead?
ERS

Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am, but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

As I said, I don't think I'd lose any sleep if exposed to the things we use
in the shop, but I'd certainly avoid any unnecessary contact.

Talk about taking risk------how many people worry about being exposed to
solvents, all the while reaching for their cigarette?

Harold

Of course your sample is scientific. It's too bad that when we need a
kidney transplant the first one will fail.
ERS

Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------


Ah, but you will be immortal on the usenet....

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am, but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to start.

We had a door to door salesman talk me into a vegetable oil based
coolant about 15 years ago. He actually gave me the first gallon to try
out. Since, at that time, most of our coolant was used with the brush
dip method it lasted quite a long time. Several months after we started
using it I notice that the machines were getting a sticky residue on
all the surfaces the coolant evaporated from. Almost nothing would cut
thru the gooo so we stopped using the crap and have been scrubbing away
at the vegetable oil based varnish ever since. It did have very
pleasant odor when it got really hot. It smelled like bread baking. Our
current flush coolant is Blazers and we have been on the same drum for
about 5 years and that is in four or five machines. I'd suggest using
coolant that is intended for metal working. BTW The petroleum based
coolant we used, in small amounts, has no sulfur odor though it tastes
bad when you get it into our mouth. It comes from Champions Choice in
Fullerton,CA and their special difficult to machine oil is fantastic. I
use it when threading 304 SS and O-1 tool steel and I can make threads
you would thing were rolled. Leigh@MarMachine

"yourname" wrote in message
...
snip---

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to
start.


My sentiments, exactly. I don't smoke cigarettes, and never have.

In order to machine, there are certain risks that all of us must assume.
It's fairly well known that the incidence of cancer with metal working
people is higher than with those that do now work with metals, and there's
no doubt that working with solvents is hazardous. The one big difference
is that no one need smoke----that's a choice each one makes. You can live
life from infancy to death without tobacco. It isn't an essential (contrary
to the claims of those that are addicted).

If you choose to machine, you must and will expose yourself to certain
hazards. It goes with the territory. Smart people do all they can to
avoid any unnecessary contact with solvents, fumes and dust, but the only
way to avoid them totally is to not machine. So then, one is prudent,
avoids unnecessary contact, and enjoys the hobby. And they smoke, but
they don't inhale! :-)

Harold

"Uwe" wrote in message
...


I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting
is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes
and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and
I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as
they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long you
have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add
(gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have it
on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has
suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off
your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold


Thanks, you made my day

Uwe

Harold is onto something that's only talked about in hushed tones today.
Trichlor and other potent solvents have been used for cutting fluids under
severe conditions, but not many people are alive to talk about it. g

When Dr. Eugene Merchant was doing his research to quantify the
metal-cutting process, back in the 1950s, he used carbon tetrachloride in
many of his experiments examining the microscopic phenomena involved in
peeling and shearing metal chips away from the parent metal. As most old
machinists knew in those days, it was the ultimate cutting fluid. I have
used it a couple of times for difficult hand-tapping jobs. Somehow it gets
into the cleavage zone and cuts the forces down to something like half of
normal, not to mention giving a superb finish.

Using it also is a good way to kill yourself. So, nobody talks about it
today. In fact, I won't talk about it any longer. Don't do it, and you're on
your own.

If you want to know more about the phenomenon of cutting metal, look up Gene
Merchant's work. His ultra-high-speed machining experiments were really
interesting: he shot a .30 cal. rifle bullet across a cutting tool. He
learned that, above 10,000 sfm and continuing upward from there, cutting
forces actually go *down*.

--
Ed Huntress

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
news
SNIP



Could it be Harold that the reason you don't know anybody adversly
affected is because they are dead?
ERS

Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and
again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free
of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene
I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some
degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am,
but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I
was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any
health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is
doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

As I said, I don't think I'd lose any sleep if exposed to the things we
use
in the shop, but I'd certainly avoid any unnecessary contact.

Talk about taking risk------how many people worry about being exposed to
solvents, all the while reaching for their cigarette?

Harold

Of course your sample is scientific.

No claims of any kind. Simply reporting that which I know to be true. I am
not endorsing the use of solvents, nor do I think they are harmless.

It's too bad that when we need a
kidney transplant the first one will fail.

Speaking of scientific matters? I fail to see the connection. Are you
suggesting because you once saw a brown dog, that all dogs are brown?

Harold

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:33:49 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"yourname" wrote in message
...
snip---

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to
start.
One thing I have observed: Trichlorethylene going through a propane
fired oven in enclose space causes a cigarette to taste like ****, but
the effect wears off after about five hours.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

I've been using a cutting lube marketed by Lenox (the saw blade
company)
called Pro Tool Lube ... snip
It's nearly clear, water soluable and about the same appearance as
liquid
dish soap, and it has almost no odor until it gets hot enough to
smoke, even
then it's low on the stink scale.

The one unusual characteristic is that it softens or blisters many
common
(enamels) paint coatings that it gets on. It doesn't appear to leave
any
residue after water rinsing that effects primer or paint adhesion.
I don't have any lube delivery systems, so I just brush it on or
dribble it
in place from a dispenser bottle.


I did some more reading and it seems biodiesel is being marketed in
Canada as a substitute for methylene chloride based paint remover. Good
thing my lathe doesn't have any paint on it anyway!

Gerald Miller wrote in
:

One thing I have observed: Trichlorethylene going through a propane
fired oven in enclose space causes a cigarette to taste like ****, but
the effect wears off after about five hours.

Sulphur oil has the same effect on the taste of cigarettes. I remember we
used to wash the oil off our hands with Trichlorethylene, it would turn
your skin white as it dissolved the oil in your skin. There was a little
old lady in one shop I worked in, that used to take it home and clean with
it. There's nothing better for tapping a hole. Tap Magic used to be mostly
Trichlor.

Dan

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:25:49 GMT, yourname wrote:



Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------


Ah, but you will be immortal on the usenet....

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am, but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to start.

Only 20% of smokers ever have a smoking related illness.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:36:45 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Uwe" wrote in message
...


I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which cutting
is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes
and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but and
I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as
they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long you
have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add
(gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have it
on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has
suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off
your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold


Thanks, you made my day

Uwe

Harold is onto something that's only talked about in hushed tones today.
Trichlor and other potent solvents have been used for cutting fluids under
severe conditions, but not many people are alive to talk about it. g

When Dr. Eugene Merchant was doing his research to quantify the
metal-cutting process, back in the 1950s, he used carbon tetrachloride in
many of his experiments examining the microscopic phenomena involved in
peeling and shearing metal chips away from the parent metal. As most old
machinists knew in those days, it was the ultimate cutting fluid. I have
used it a couple of times for difficult hand-tapping jobs. Somehow it gets
into the cleavage zone and cuts the forces down to something like half of
normal, not to mention giving a superb finish.

Using it also is a good way to kill yourself. So, nobody talks about it
today. In fact, I won't talk about it any longer. Don't do it, and you're on
your own.

If you want to know more about the phenomenon of cutting metal, look up Gene
Merchant's work. His ultra-high-speed machining experiments were really
interesting: he shot a .30 cal. rifle bullet across a cutting tool. He
learned that, above 10,000 sfm and continuing upward from there, cutting
forces actually go *down*.

I still have some tapping fluids that contain Tri-clor.

Very old, but still work very well. Or so they say.


Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:33:49 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"yourname" wrote in message
...
snip---

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to
start.
One thing I have observed: Trichlorethylene going through a propane
fired oven in enclose space causes a cigarette to taste like ****, but
the effect wears off after about five hours.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Trichloroethylene? The stuff used in vapor degreasers? Bad stuff,
Maynard. Heavy exposure can lead to ventricular fibrillation. The
machining additive used to be 1,1,1, trichloroethane, which is quite
different. Not that either of them are something I'd consider good for
you! :-)

Harold

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Uwe" wrote in message
...


I have two questions regarding cutting fluid, I just used a fair
amount
for
a cut off operation and was amazed by its effectiveness, but it
wasn't
biodiesel, it was some tapmatic product.

First how does it do it, I mean what is the mechanism by which
cutting
is
soo obviously improved?

Second, what does it do to me. I am not supposed to breathe the fumes
and
avoid contact with my hands while, in reality I breathe nothing but
and
I
am
practically swimming in it.

How long do I have to live??

Uwe


Chuckle!

I'm not sure I can provide the proper reasons cutting fluids works as
they
do aside from reducing friction and cooling, but as far as how long
you
have
to live, I'd say you have little about which to be concerned.

I started in the trade back in '57. It was common practice to add
(gallons
of) 1,1,1,
trichlorothene to the oil in lathes to improve machining. You'd have
it
on
you day in and day out.

I'm not suggesting it was anything good, but no one that I know has
suffered
anything obvious from the experience. That isn't true of many
solvents,
however.

Avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and keep the stuff off
your
hands and arms, but don't lose sleep if you happen to get the
occasional
sniff or splash. You should live to be an old Uwe.

Harold


Thanks, you made my day

Uwe

Harold is onto something that's only talked about in hushed tones today.
Trichlor and other potent solvents have been used for cutting fluids under
severe conditions, but not many people are alive to talk about it. g

When Dr. Eugene Merchant was doing his research to quantify the
metal-cutting process, back in the 1950s, he used carbon tetrachloride in
many of his experiments examining the microscopic phenomena involved in
peeling and shearing metal chips away from the parent metal. As most old
machinists knew in those days, it was the ultimate cutting fluid. I have
used it a couple of times for difficult hand-tapping jobs. Somehow it gets
into the cleavage zone and cuts the forces down to something like half of
normal, not to mention giving a superb finish.

By the time I was in the shop, carbon tet was not being used. They used
1,1,1, trichloroethane (Chlorothene) instead. It's the same stuff that
used to be found in Tap Magic and other brands of ferrous tapping solutions,
as you likely know.

Using it also is a good way to kill yourself.

That's a little extreme if you're talking about Chlorothene. No one died,
and as far as I know, no one lost their health. Well over 100 machinists
worked at the facility. I fully agree with carbon tet.

So, nobody talks about it
today. In fact, I won't talk about it any longer. Don't do it, and you're
on
your own.

They're still talking about Chlorothene, so much so that pints of old
formula Tap Magic are selling for $50. It's worth every penny if you're
tapping difficult material.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

By the time I was in the shop, carbon tet was not being used. They used
1,1,1, trichloroethane (Chlorothene) instead. It's the same stuff that
used to be found in Tap Magic and other brands of ferrous tapping
solutions,
as you likely know.

Yeah, I still have a can of it.


Using it also is a good way to kill yourself.

That's a little extreme if you're talking about Chlorothene. No one died,
and as far as I know, no one lost their health. Well over 100 machinists
worked at the facility. I fully agree with carbon tet.

I was talking about carbon tetrachloride. When I was a kid we bought it at
the pharmacy, as a component for our homemade dry-fly dope (carbon tet, and
paraffin wax dissolved in it until no more will dissolve). I wonder how much
of it went up my snoot over the years.

--
Ed Huntress


So, nobody talks about it
today. In fact, I won't talk about it any longer. Don't do it, and
you're
on
your own.

They're still talking about Chlorothene, so much so that pints of old
formula Tap Magic are selling for $50. It's worth every penny if you're
tapping difficult material.

Harold

snip
When Dr. Eugene Merchant was doing his research to quantify the
metal-cutting process, back in the 1950s, he used carbon tetrachloride in
many of his experiments
snip
cuts the forces down to something like half of
normal, not to mention giving a superb finish.
snip
======================================
Anyone know if it is a chemical reaction or cooling due to the
high evaporation rate? Anybody try acetone? freon? hexane?

GmcD

I still have some tapping fluids that contain Tri-clor.

Very old, but still work very well. Or so they say.

I bought a can of "original" tap-magic and it is indeed magic.
Best tapping fluid I have ever used on steel. And it only
cost me $50 a pint.

chuck

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:39:09 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
news
SNIP



Could it be Harold that the reason you don't know anybody adversly
affected is because they are dead?
ERS

Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and
again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free
of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene
I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some
degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am,
but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I
was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any
health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is
doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

As I said, I don't think I'd lose any sleep if exposed to the things we
use
in the shop, but I'd certainly avoid any unnecessary contact.

Talk about taking risk------how many people worry about being exposed to
solvents, all the while reaching for their cigarette?

Harold

Of course your sample is scientific.

No claims of any kind. Simply reporting that which I know to be true. I am
not endorsing the use of solvents, nor do I think they are harmless.

It's too bad that when we need a
kidney transplant the first one will fail.

Speaking of scientific matters? I fail to see the connection. Are you
suggesting because you once saw a brown dog, that all dogs are brown?

Harold

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from
certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you
knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a
little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So,
as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your
statements. Whew!
Cheers, Harold

Chlorothene was wonderful stuff. In the '70's, I used to see millwrights
toting open 5 gal buckets of it to big compressors or turbines during
turnarounds. It was used like water. Of course, the plant made several
hundred thousand pounds of it every day, so the cost was not a problem. I
never heard of anyone who suffered any injury from exposure to it other than
de-oiling skin.

Randy



By the time I was in the shop, carbon tet was not being used. They used
1,1,1, trichloroethane (Chlorothene) instead. It's the same stuff that
used to be found in Tap Magic and other brands of ferrous tapping
solutions,
as you likely know.

Using it also is a good way to kill yourself.

That's a little extreme if you're talking about Chlorothene. No one died,
and as far as I know, no one lost their health. Well over 100 machinists
worked at the facility. I fully agree with carbon tet.

So, nobody talks about it
today. In fact, I won't talk about it any longer. Don't do it, and
you're
on
your own.

They're still talking about Chlorothene, so much so that pints of old
formula Tap Magic are selling for $50. It's worth every penny if you're
tapping difficult material.

Harold

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:39:09 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
news
SNIP



Could it be Harold that the reason you don't know anybody adversly
affected is because they are dead?
ERS

Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and
again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found
was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around
and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them
free
of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the
chlorothene
I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some
degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am,
but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal.
I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that,
I
was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that
had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any
health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is
doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

As I said, I don't think I'd lose any sleep if exposed to the things
we
use
in the shop, but I'd certainly avoid any unnecessary contact.

Talk about taking risk------how many people worry about being exposed
to
solvents, all the while reaching for their cigarette?

Harold

Of course your sample is scientific.

No claims of any kind. Simply reporting that which I know to be true. I
am
not endorsing the use of solvents, nor do I think they are harmless.

It's too bad that when we need a
kidney transplant the first one will fail.

Speaking of scientific matters? I fail to see the connection. Are you
suggesting because you once saw a brown dog, that all dogs are brown?

Harold

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from
certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you
knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a
little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So,
as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your
statements. Whew!
Cheers, Harold

I figured you missed the point, and you did.

I guess what I should have told the OP was that he had but a short time to
live, because there are cases on file that are well documented where people
have suffered and died from the same type exposures. In some instances,
they grew three eyes and a couple extra legs.

This person is worrying about dying because he happened to sniff some
chemicals a time or two. Being prudent, I provided a couple extreme
examples of experiences I've had, in my mind, enough to put his mind at
ease. Drawing from a group of over 100 machinists, there are none
suffering from exposure at this point in time, and the exposure was severe.
That's not to say that some won't have trouble, but if severe exposure has
not brought forth any health issues over such a long period of time, a case
of simple exposure on occasion is highly unlikely too. Get it, Eric?

If you think for even one moment that I feel the use of solvents is
harmless, you're nothing short of nuts! I'm concerned each and every time
I use anything as common as paint thinner. On the other hand, I also
realize that to try to do the things I have to do and not use such
substances is absurd. We face certain risks each and every day, simply
by being alive. Prudent people do the best they can to avoid the
hazards, but they don't quit living to do so.

Harold

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:49:19 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:25:49 GMT, yourname wrote:



Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------


Ah, but you will be immortal on the usenet....

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am, but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to start.

Only 20% of smokers ever have a smoking related illness.

A few years ago (can't recall th' source) I read a breakdown of
longevity by country. Japanese people were at th' top of th' list,
ie, living th' longest. Coincidentally, they also had th' highest per
capita of smokers than any other country.

Snarl

SNIP

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from
certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you
knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a
little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So,
as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your
statements. Whew!
Cheers, Harold

I figured you missed the point, and you did.

I guess what I should have told the OP was that he had but a short time to
live, because there are cases on file that are well documented where people
have suffered and died from the same type exposures. In some instances,
they grew three eyes and a couple extra legs.

This person is worrying about dying because he happened to sniff some
chemicals a time or two. Being prudent, I provided a couple extreme
examples of experiences I've had, in my mind, enough to put his mind at
ease. Drawing from a group of over 100 machinists, there are none
suffering from exposure at this point in time, and the exposure was severe.
That's not to say that some won't have trouble, but if severe exposure has
not brought forth any health issues over such a long period of time, a case
of simple exposure on occasion is highly unlikely too. Get it, Eric?

If you think for even one moment that I feel the use of solvents is
harmless, you're nothing short of nuts! I'm concerned each and every time
I use anything as common as paint thinner. On the other hand, I also
realize that to try to do the things I have to do and not use such
substances is absurd. We face certain risks each and every day, simply
by being alive. Prudent people do the best they can to avoid the
hazards, but they don't quit living to do so.

Harold

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that
assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another
guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and
the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head
first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had
to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless
overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to
stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He
just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had
breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just
happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it
took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular.
Eric

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:55:39 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

SNIP

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from
certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you
knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a
little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So,
as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your
statements. Whew!
Cheers, Harold

I figured you missed the point, and you did.

I guess what I should have told the OP was that he had but a short time to
live, because there are cases on file that are well documented where people
have suffered and died from the same type exposures. In some instances,
they grew three eyes and a couple extra legs.

This person is worrying about dying because he happened to sniff some
chemicals a time or two. Being prudent, I provided a couple extreme
examples of experiences I've had, in my mind, enough to put his mind at
ease. Drawing from a group of over 100 machinists, there are none
suffering from exposure at this point in time, and the exposure was severe.
That's not to say that some won't have trouble, but if severe exposure has
not brought forth any health issues over such a long period of time, a case
of simple exposure on occasion is highly unlikely too. Get it, Eric?

If you think for even one moment that I feel the use of solvents is
harmless, you're nothing short of nuts! I'm concerned each and every time
I use anything as common as paint thinner. On the other hand, I also
realize that to try to do the things I have to do and not use such
substances is absurd. We face certain risks each and every day, simply
by being alive. Prudent people do the best they can to avoid the
hazards, but they don't quit living to do so.

Harold

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that
assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another
guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and
the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head
first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had
to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless
overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to
stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He
just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had
breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just
happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it
took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular.
Eric


Ive recently discovered Im sensitive to SafetyKleen solvent. I never
used to be.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:42:28 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:49:19 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:25:49 GMT, yourname wrote:



Dunno. I checked the obit's this morning, only to find I'm strangely
missing from the listing------


Ah, but you will be immortal on the usenet....

I ran an electronics connector modification job for Univac time and again.
The body of the connectors got split, machined and drilled. After
handling, the only thing that would clean them perfectly that I found was
the use of chlorothene. The parts were submersed, swished around and
quickly withdrawn and dried with a blast of air. That left them free of
finger prints and spots. Moments after contact with the chlorothene I
could taste it in my mouth, so I know it had to be absorbed to some degree
through my skin. Mind you I'm not bragging about how healthy I am, but I
just had a physical, and at this point in time I seem to be normal. I
haven't used the solvent in that fashion since '83, but prior to that, I was
exposed to it fairly regularly. None of my peers have died that had
similar experiences, nor do I know of any of them that have had any health
issues aside from one, who had kidney failure (and diabetes). He is doing
well with his second kidney transplant. First one didn't work.

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know
plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to start.

Only 20% of smokers ever have a smoking related illness.

A few years ago (can't recall th' source) I read a breakdown of
longevity by country. Japanese people were at th' top of th' list,
ie, living th' longest. Coincidentally, they also had th' highest per
capita of smokers than any other country.

Snarl

Ayup. There are MANY factors involved.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael