"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
SNIP

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from
certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you
knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a
little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So,
as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your
statements. Whew!
Cheers, Harold

I figured you missed the point, and you did.

I guess what I should have told the OP was that he had but a short time
to
live, because there are cases on file that are well documented where
people
have suffered and died from the same type exposures. In some
instances,
they grew three eyes and a couple extra legs.

This person is worrying about dying because he happened to sniff some
chemicals a time or two. Being prudent, I provided a couple extreme
examples of experiences I've had, in my mind, enough to put his mind at
ease. Drawing from a group of over 100 machinists, there are none
suffering from exposure at this point in time, and the exposure was
severe.
That's not to say that some won't have trouble, but if severe exposure
has
not brought forth any health issues over such a long period of time, a
case
of simple exposure on occasion is highly unlikely too. Get it, Eric?

If you think for even one moment that I feel the use of solvents is
harmless, you're nothing short of nuts! I'm concerned each and every
time
I use anything as common as paint thinner. On the other hand, I also
realize that to try to do the things I have to do and not use such
substances is absurd. We face certain risks each and every day,
simply
by being alive. Prudent people do the best they can to avoid the
hazards, but they don't quit living to do so.

Harold

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that
assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another
guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and
the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head
first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had
to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless
overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to
stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He
just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had
breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just
happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it
took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular.
Eric

That's a horrible story, and I'd certainly share your concern had I been
involved. However, there's likely more to this than just getting a whiff
of vapor. Such tanks are well known for suffocating people that enter
them due to the displacement of oxygen by the cleaning solution vapors.
That they are open makes little difference because the fumes are heavier
than air and are not displaced easily. I'm not suggesting that I know
that the person involved didn't suffer a reaction to the fumes, but I won't
discount the possibility that he was deprived of oxygen, either. However,
the fact that he recovered rather quickly when removed hints at oxygen
deprivation, not poisoning.

Here's a link that pertains to
perchloroethylene---http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/dryclean.htm

Take note of the last sentence in the last paragraph. It clearly states
that the affect of exposure relates to the amount of exposure and the
frequency.

Harold

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

By the time I was in the shop, carbon tet was not being used. They
used
1,1,1, trichloroethane (Chlorothene) instead. It's the same stuff that
used to be found in Tap Magic and other brands of ferrous tapping
solutions,
as you likely know.

Yeah, I still have a can of it.


Using it also is a good way to kill yourself.

That's a little extreme if you're talking about Chlorothene. No one
died,
and as far as I know, no one lost their health. Well over 100
machinists
worked at the facility. I fully agree with carbon tet.

I was talking about carbon tetrachloride. When I was a kid we bought it at
the pharmacy, as a component for our homemade dry-fly dope (carbon tet,
and
paraffin wax dissolved in it until no more will dissolve). I wonder how
much
of it went up my snoot over the years.


Wow! My exposure to tet was very limited. Not having tied flies, I'm not
sure I understand, but I get the idea you painted it on, then allowed it to
dry. Makes sense. You're lucky you worked on small objects, where
exposure was minimal.

I landed on an interesting article when checking on solvents. I've included
a link.
http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/p2/ser...rvlet?wDID=234

Take note of 2.0, where discussion revolves around Chlorothene affecting the
ozone layer. Could it be that is the chief reason it has been removed from
most products?

According to the 9th edition Merck Index, 1,1,1-trichloroethane is
irritating to eyes, mucous membranes and, in high concentrations, narcotic.
There is no mention of other problems. Maybe I'll sleep better tonight.
I've not taken my exposure lightly, but worrying about it would serve no
good purpose.

Harold

Take note of 2.0, where discussion revolves around Chlorothene affecting the
ozone layer. Could it be that is the chief reason it has been removed from
most products?

I bought my original tap-magic formula for scott logan. He claims
that is why it is not so expensive. I only use tiny amounts of it
and it truely is a great tapping liquid. Something that taps hard
will change to easy when original tap-magic is used instead of
new "improved" formulas. My only issue is how to apply small amounts
without wasting it. I tried a little squeeze bottle and that works
great but the liquid seems to disappear when stored in the small
plastic bottle.

chuck

In article , Gunner says...

Only 20% of smokers ever have a smoking related illness.

What do you call a 'smoking-related illness?' Don't just
limit yourself to respiratory related ones, though.

The trouble here is, there's quite a statistical spike
that catches folks who a) smoke, and b) have lifetime
exposure to things like asbestos, solvents, metalworking,
etc.

Because most folks here automatically fall into the b)
catagory, they're aware of the link - and so avoid the
a) catagory.

You don't really want to learn about the sorts of non-respiratory
illnesses that tend to happen to folks who get caught on the
statistical spike mentioned above. My mom is an enterstomal
therapist nurse working at sloan kettering. I hate having
converstations about this with her. Really puts one off
the feed when talking over dinner.

Suffice it to say I've gotten very very cautions about *any*
solvent use at work. Basically I've limted myself to ethanol.
I figure if you can drink it it can't be that bad to get some
on your hand. And I try to avoid that too.

The issue is, over the years workplaces have changed. It's no
longer acceptable to have avoidable contact with solvents.
By this I mean most employers are well-aware of the risks
involved, and the legal liabilities that come along. Because
of this, they do the utmost to provide fume hoods, protective
gear and so on. Anyone who does not insist on that is crazy.
Even more nutty if the gear is supplied and not used.

I almost quit my night job of a few years ago, early on, because
they wanted me to use ethyl ether (starting fluid from a spray
can) to clean white nylon parts after they were turned.
The forman simply didn't understand the risk of doing this - he'd
always done it and thought there was no danger at all. I
printed out a copy of the MSDS for ether and brought it in.
They stopped using ether as a catch-all shop solvent.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

they wanted me to use ethyl ether (starting fluid from a spray
can) to clean white nylon parts after they were turned.
The forman simply didn't understand the risk of doing this - he'd
always done it and thought there was no danger at all. I

OK, I'll bite. What are the hazards?
chuck

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in
:

Take note of 2.0, where discussion revolves around Chlorothene
affecting the ozone layer. Could it be that is the chief reason it
has been removed from most products?

That's exactly the reason. Contrary to popular belief it can still be used
but the emission standards are very tight. There are some parts that can
only be cleaned by vapor degreasing with Trichlor. Particularly thin parts
that don't have much mass and parts with small holes. There are closed loop
vapor degreasers that have near zero emissions. Most are used with Perc
where possible, since it's used in dry cleaning clothes it's more widely
available and cheaper. IIRC, it has limitations in cleaning small holes and
narrow areas, that's when you need the Trichlor. I could be wrong, it was a
while ago. The company I work for was involved with this closed loop system
for a while. I knew or at least remembered more then.

http://www.perocorp.com/pero1.htm

Does it work?

http://dep.state.ct.us/wst/p2/p2case...tsdegrease.htm

It was nice having a demo unit around, there is nothing better at cleaning
parts than a vapor degreaser.

--

Dan

In article , Charles A. Sherwood says...

they wanted me to use ethyl ether (starting fluid from a spray
can) to clean white nylon parts after they were turned.
The forman simply didn't understand the risk of doing this - he'd
always done it and thought there was no danger at all. I

OK, I'll bite. What are the hazards?

Aside from the fire issue, ether has been implicated in all
kinds of kidney, liver damage. Most of those folks who
developed anasthesia died of some combination of those
ailments.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:39:42 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that
assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another
guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and
the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head
first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had
to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless
overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to
stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He
just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had
breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just
happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it
took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular.
Eric


Ive recently discovered Im sensitive to SafetyKleen solvent. I never
used to be.

There seems to be an "issue" with a lot of organic compounds, basically
as you say: you develop a sensitivity to the compound. People have been
working with latex gloves for years, then "one" day they pull on a pair and
go into shock.
Or penicillin, or solvents, or ... what ever.

Biochemistry is so weird, interesting and completely fascinating. Not
to mention something I don't understand beyond the superficial.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

pyotr filipivich wrote:
I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:39:42 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that
assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another
guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and
the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head
first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had
to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless
overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to
stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He
just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had
breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just
happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it
took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular.
Eric


Ive recently discovered Im sensitive to SafetyKleen solvent. I never
used to be.


There seems to be an "issue" with a lot of organic compounds, basically
as you say: you develop a sensitivity to the compound. People have been
working with latex gloves for years, then "one" day they pull on a pair and
go into shock.
Or penicillin, or solvents, or ... what ever.

Biochemistry is so weird, interesting and completely fascinating. Not
to mention something I don't understand beyond the superficial.

I agree. I never had a problem with VOCs or cigarette smoke. Smoked for
20 years, washed parts with gasoline barehanded (when I was yound and
stupid). Now any sort of VOC inhalation can trigger a weeklong illness
much like the flu, maybe bronchitis. Cigarette smoke has a similar
effect if I don't get away from it.

--
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in
:

Take note of 2.0, where discussion revolves around Chlorothene
affecting the ozone layer. Could it be that is the chief reason it
has been removed from most products?

That's exactly the reason. Contrary to popular belief it can still be used
but the emission standards are very tight. There are some parts that can
only be cleaned by vapor degreasing with Trichlor. Particularly thin parts
that don't have much mass and parts with small holes. There are closed
loop
vapor degreasers that have near zero emissions. Most are used with Perc
where possible, since it's used in dry cleaning clothes it's more widely
available and cheaper. IIRC, it has limitations in cleaning small holes
and
narrow areas, that's when you need the Trichlor. I could be wrong, it was
a
while ago. The company I work for was involved with this closed loop
system
for a while. I knew or at least remembered more then.

http://www.perocorp.com/pero1.htm

Does it work?

http://dep.state.ct.us/wst/p2/p2case...tsdegrease.htm

It was nice having a demo unit around, there is nothing better at cleaning
parts than a vapor degreaser.


Cool! Very impressive statistics.

I recall watching parts being introduced to the vapor degreaser----and
seeing the contaminants start dripping off immediately. You could see the
parts coming clean and watch the drops start running clear as they dripped
off the clean items. That was with the simple heated type only, no fox
tails or whistles (like ultrasonic and filtering). I can't imagine a
better method of cleaning, but it certainly must be way beyond reach for the
home shop types. Sigh!

Harold

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:39:42 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that
assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another
guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and
the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head
first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had
to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless
overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to
stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He
just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had
breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just
happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it
took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular.
Eric


Ive recently discovered Im sensitive to SafetyKleen solvent. I never
used to be.

There seems to be an "issue" with a lot of organic compounds, basically
as you say: you develop a sensitivity to the compound. People have been
working with latex gloves for years, then "one" day they pull on a pair
and
go into shock.
Or penicillin, or solvents, or ... what ever.

Biochemistry is so weird, interesting and completely fascinating. Not
to mention something I don't understand beyond the superficial.

tschus
pyotr

Apparently one can develop a sensitivity to salts of the platinum group as
well. I was fortunate to have never been troubled when I was refining.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in
:
snip
I can't imagine a
better method of cleaning, but it certainly must be way beyond reach
for the home shop types. Sigh!


I definitely do not advocate boiling solvent at home, if if you can get
your hands on it. I can't remember the numbers but Trichlor has skyrocketed
in price. That's the advantage of the system that the Pero uses. It's
distilling the solvent every cycle, then condensing the dirty solvent and
reclaiming it. Those machines are seriously complicated. They make a ten
axis Swiss look like childs play as far as maintenance and repair. You need
to be a Jack-of-all-trades, and a master at all of them.


--

Dan

Rex B wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Thu, 24 Mar 2005
07:39:42 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :


Ive recently discovered Im sensitive to SafetyKleen solvent. I
never
used to be.


There seems to be an "issue" with a lot of organic compounds,
basically
as you say: you develop a sensitivity to the compound. People have
been
working with latex gloves for years, then "one" day they pull on a
pair and
go into shock.
Or penicillin, or solvents, or ... what ever.

Biochemistry is so weird, interesting and completely fascinating.
Not
to mention something I don't understand beyond the superficial.

I agree. I never had a problem with VOCs or cigarette smoke. Smoked
for
20 years, washed parts with gasoline barehanded (when I was yound and

stupid). Now any sort of VOC inhalation can trigger a weeklong
illness
much like the flu, maybe bronchitis. Cigarette smoke has a similar
effect if I don't get away from it.

--
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX


This is called "multiple chemical sensitivity" or "environmental
illness." It is caused by chronic or acute toxic chemical exposure (a
lot at once or a little every day) and it just gets worse and worse
unless you do a lot of detox procedures for several years. Don't expect
any help from the medical establishment either. Doctors tend to think
it's a psychological illness, even though people have had anaphylactic
shock and died from exposure to common chemicals like perfume. Any
scientific research on the issue has been squashed by big corporations
afraid of large scale liability suits and the threat of having to
actually change their ways. Who would have thought? :P Fortunately "the
liberals" have made a little progress in this area regarding prevention
of chronic chemical exposure, even if it is a pain in the ass for
factory supervisors.

Tap Magic ProTap contains 75% "oleic acid" aka refined acidified
vegetable oil, 15% "methyl oleate" aka biodiesel, and 10% "organic
polyol" whatever that may be. It costs $33 per gallon and warns to
"clean and lubricate metal surfaces to avoid staining and or corrosion"
after use. Works alright in my limited experience.

Biodiesel B100 which is 100% methyl oleate costs $1.65 to $3.50 per
gallon.

Hmmmm...

Tap Magic Formula 2 Eco-oil appears to be (drumroll) vegetable oil at
$37 a gallon. Funny how it costs more than the other stuff.

Here's my point: When you start off with biological materials such as
vegetable oil, you usually have a 100% non-toxic substance. Whenever
you do a chemical reaction you start off with impure reagents. As such,
byproducts will form that were not intended to be in the final product.
Products derived from biological materials will accrue more and more
by-products with each chemical reaction along the way. No amount of
purification can remove 100% of these byproducts from the final
product. If your body happens to be allergic or sensitized to one of
the byproducts, you can get sick from the 0.001 ppt of toxin - despite
the product containing "no toxic ingredients". The immune system has a
higher sensitivity to toxic chemicals than a mass spectrometer, so
there's no practical way to test for trace contamination that could
affect people. Lab grade 1,1,1,Trichloroethane might be perfectly safe,
but Industrial grade 1,1,1,Trichloroethane might contain
Trichloroethylene or worse. You have no way of knowing, especially if
all you have to go on is the MSDS.

Personally, I'd rather "mix my own" than pay big bucks for someone else
to poison me. That's why i'm looking into using biodiesel as a general
purpose cutting fluid. Of course, I am using it on my homemade lathe to
make homemade four jaw chuck with homemade cutting bits. Other people
may not be so inclined.


-ben lipkowitz

"mow4212345" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tap Magic ProTap contains 75% "oleic acid" aka refined acidified
vegetable oil, 15% "methyl oleate" aka biodiesel, and 10% "organic
polyol" whatever that may be.

Probably like, ethylene, propylene (i.e. glycerin), butylene glycols (hm,
never heard of that last one, though surely it exists) and so forth. Fat is
glycerin trioleate, oil is usually a lower ester I think. And biodiesel
replaces glycerin (especially higher-MW polyglycerides) with straight
(literally) methyl oleate, as you noted. So basically... you've got diesel
and oil.

Just cut to the chase and mix bacon grease with your favorite light oil. G

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms