"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
My interest in the Amazon Kindle went up greatly when I read it will hold
up to 3500 ebooks. Now I'm not sure yet how many it'll hold in PDF format,
but dang, to have a few hundred technical reference books available in a
heartbeat...


There is a catch, however, and that is that the interface when reading PDF
files is clumsy and slow. One page per screen (small screen) is way too
small, so you have to enlarge it into four windows which don't scroll.
It -works- (after a fashion) and is infinitely better than
not-having-the-manual-at-all, but it is a frustrating interface if you're
used to using a PC or an iPad.

Saw one at Staples the other day, and it was so thin, I thought at first
it was a cardboard facsimile until I noticed the power cord. Really a
slick looking unit. I've put it at the top of my wish list for
Christmas...

As light as cardboard, too...

....and hats off, too, to Amazon's very sensisble approach to repairs under
warranty. I dropped mine and broke the screen. My fault entirely. They
replaced it, free of charge, *almost* no-questions-asked, within a week (to
*Australia*!) I'm now using the new one, and am just about to post the
broken one back to them. (Note the order of operations.)

Obviously the sale of ebooks is more important to them than the hardware -
and good thing too.

Another thing - the Kindle screen is drop-dead gorgeous. It really looks
like printed paper. I have the small Kindle (for portability) and will
definitely be getting a big one (for reading convenience). I love my iPad,
too, but the Kindle wins hands-down for reading clarity and portability (not
to mention $$$).

Oh - the user interface (including "go-to") is utter crap, but I spend most
of the time reading and turning pages, not flicking and re-sizing and
browsing.

--
Jeff R.




Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:

My interest in the Amazon Kindle went up greatly when I read it will
hold up to 3500 ebooks. Now I'm not sure yet how many it'll hold in PDF
format, but dang, to have a few hundred technical reference books
available in a heartbeat...

Saw one at Staples the other day, and it was so thin, I thought at first
it was a cardboard facsimile until I noticed the power cord. Really a
slick looking unit. I've put it at the top of my wish list for Christmas...

Jon

If only I could verify my ownership of many of my books and have them on a kindle after
recycling them. That would be sweet. The one down side of drm is what happens to your
library after you die?

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

My interest in the Amazon Kindle went up greatly when I read it will
hold up to 3500 ebooks. Now I'm not sure yet how many it'll hold in PDF
format, but dang, to have a few hundred technical reference books
available in a heartbeat...

Saw one at Staples the other day, and it was so thin, I thought at first
it was a cardboard facsimile until I noticed the power cord. Really a
slick looking unit. I've put it at the top of my wish list for Christmas...

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Ah, good to get some feedback like this. Maybe I'll opt for the bigger
one.

Smaller one fits in big pockets. Big one wouldn't.

And good to know they'll deal with folks down under, as I'm headed there
in the not too distant future...

Sensible choice. (Both of them)

So, how hard is it to -find- the book you want? Is it straight
alphabetical, or can you organize books into folders by topic?

You can create "folders" and move your books into them. Sadly you cannot
(AFAIK) create a hierarchy of folders-within-folders, which is a shame for
me. I like over-organising my directories.

Still, simple folders is better than 'nowt.

There is a very comprehensive search function, which will search: your
stuff, kindle store, google, dictionary, wiki, or just take you to the web.
Did I mention it goes on the web?

I almost never use the search function, though. Prefer to keep my stuff in
logical folders.

You can sort your stuff by: title, author, collection (folder) or most
recently accessed.



Yeah, that screen really is lovely, part of why I thought I was looking at
a fake for a few seconds.

When I got my first one, I tried to peel off the printed instruction sheet
from the screen. There wasn't one. :-|

--
Jeff R.




Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Hmm, that brings up another question... I grabbed a number of the military
books on machining, electronics, and machine repair. I just -assumed- that
I could load up any book I wanted in PDF format.

You can do that with ease on a Kindle.
Of the 300-odd titles I have on my Kindle, only one is DRMed, and that was
one that I downloaded as an experiment.
All the rest is text, html, pdf or some other doc that has been converted to
Kindle's .mobi format.


I've ripped some CD's to MP3 and loaded them onto my Ipod with no DRM
verification, didn't see why the Kindle would be any different. Looks like
I'm wrong?

Only for current copyrighted books you buy through them.


And you bring up a really good point about digital libraries. Printed
books can be handed down through several generations or more if cared for.


Aye!
Now *that* is a huge worry - not just for books, but for photos as well.

--
Jeff R.




Jon

On 10/22/2010 3:48 PM, Jeff R. wrote:

There is a catch, however, and that is that the interface when reading PDF
files is clumsy and slow. One page per screen (small screen) is way too
small, so you have to enlarge it into four windows which don't scroll.

Ah, good to get some feedback like this. Maybe I'll opt for the bigger
one. And good to know they'll deal with folks down under, as I'm headed
there in the not too distant future...

So, how hard is it to -find- the book you want? Is it straight
alphabetical, or can you organize books into folders by topic?

Yeah, that screen really is lovely, part of why I thought I was looking
at a fake for a few seconds.

Jon

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:28:56 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

My interest in the Amazon Kindle went up greatly when I read it will
hold up to 3500 ebooks. Now I'm not sure yet how many it'll hold in PDF
format, but dang, to have a few hundred technical reference books
available in a heartbeat...

Saw one at Staples the other day, and it was so thin, I thought at first
it was a cardboard facsimile until I noticed the power cord. Really a
slick looking unit. I've put it at the top of my wish list for Christmas...

Jon


The Kindle may or may not be your best choice..particularly at the price
and capability of file formats it will display and display
properly......

You may wish to read this..... and compare...

http://www.ebookreadersreview.co.uk/...-tables-added/

http://ebook-reader-review.toptenreviews.com/

So far..the BeBook appears to be one of the most versitile...but the
manufactures are still scrambling around trying to find out what
everyone wants most....

The Kindle 3 does look pretty good and its Wifi compatible...but it
doesnt fully support EPUB format completely yet..which appears to be the
most rapidly growing Ebook format

I rather suspect November will see a 3rd generation of ebook readers
being announched just in time for Christmas.....

Id be quite happy to get a Astek, as it reads practially everything...

http://www.theezreader.com/html/support.asp#3

but..it doesnt have wireless. Shrug


Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:45:27 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 10/22/2010 3:50 PM, Wes wrote:

If only I could verify my ownership of many of my books and have them on a kindle after
recycling them. That would be sweet. The one down side of drm is what happens to your
library after you die?

Hmm, that brings up another question... I grabbed a number of the
military books on machining, electronics, and machine repair. I just
-assumed- that I could load up any book I wanted in PDF format.

I've ripped some CD's to MP3 and loaded them onto my Ipod with no DRM
verification, didn't see why the Kindle would be any different. Looks
like I'm wrong?

And you bring up a really good point about digital libraries. Printed
books can be handed down through several generations or more if cared for.


Jon

So can Ebook formats, if you save them on DVDs/CDs and so forth..or
preferably..a USB hard drive that you refresh every 4-5 yrs

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

Gunner



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Thanks for the feedback on all points, much appreciated. I think I'll
try to find someone local with one that will load a PDF of my choice and
let me see how it looks. I'll pick a tech manual with pictures and/or
diagrams. If I can live with the smaller one, I'll get that, much more
convenient when flying down under (I have no trouble reading a paperback
and a couple magazines during the 14 hour flight...)


Jon

On 10/22/2010 6:02 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

You may wish to read this..... and compare...

Thanks, something to think about. Maybe my best bet for now is to hold
off and see what comes out in the next 6-12 months. Yeah, the BeBook
sure looks to have it on general compatibility and formats.


Jon

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:34:10 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 10/22/2010 6:02 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

You may wish to read this..... and compare...

Thanks, something to think about. Maybe my best bet for now is to hold
off and see what comes out in the next 6-12 months. Yeah, the BeBook
sure looks to have it on general compatibility and formats.


Jon


Since ebook readers are still largely in their infancy....that might be
best. Now on the other hand..you can pick up one of the new and very
cheap laptops for $150-300..the same price as an ebook reader..and it
will give you color, all the computer functions and read ALL formats.

But then..they arent as small and thin as the ebook readers
either..though they are getting much closer....

http://www.geeks.com/products.asp?cat=NBB

http://www.overstock.com/Electronics...33/subcat.html



Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:50:40 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Jon Anderson wrote:

My interest in the Amazon Kindle went up greatly when I read it will
hold up to 3500 ebooks. Now I'm not sure yet how many it'll hold in PDF
format, but dang, to have a few hundred technical reference books
available in a heartbeat...

Saw one at Staples the other day, and it was so thin, I thought at first
it was a cardboard facsimile until I noticed the power cord. Really a
slick looking unit. I've put it at the top of my wish list for Christmas...

Jon

If only I could verify my ownership of many of my books and have them on a kindle after
recycling them. That would be sweet. The one down side of drm is what happens to your
library after you die?

Read some of the angry comments in the kindle feedback files. If your
kindle dies in-warranty, they give you a new one. Then you can
individually download each and every one of your titles that you saved
to the old one. 3,500? Should take you only a FEW WEEKS, if you have
nothing else to do 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It seems that
they're not quite perfect.

--
I am an old man, but in many senses a very young man.
And this is what I want you to be, young, young all
your life. -- Pablo Casals

Gunner Asch on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:04:29 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

So can Ebook formats, if you save them on DVDs/CDs and so forth..or
preferably..a USB hard drive that you refresh every 4-5 yrs

As long as the materials hold up, and the format is still
supported. The advantage to the printed page is that the "technology"
is proved, and the formats are still supported. (One could argue
about the problem of books recorded in a format/language no longer
readable - Linear B, Mayan, etc - but that doesn't meant he documents
are no longer completely inaccessible.)

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

Go for it!
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Not sure if it's still the case, but it used to be that the DX (big Kindle)
was the only one that could directly accept PDF files from a PC. The small
one required you to do something like email the file to Amazon where they
"converted" it to your Kindle.

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 10/22/2010 3:48 PM, Jeff R. wrote:

There is a catch, however, and that is that the interface when reading
PDF
files is clumsy and slow. One page per screen (small screen) is way too
small, so you have to enlarge it into four windows which don't scroll.

Ah, good to get some feedback like this. Maybe I'll opt for the bigger
one. And good to know they'll deal with folks down under, as I'm headed
there in the not too distant future...

So, how hard is it to -find- the book you want? Is it straight
alphabetical, or can you organize books into folders by topic?

Yeah, that screen really is lovely, part of why I thought I was looking at
a fake for a few seconds.

Jon

On 10/23/2010 9:31 AM, Mike Henry wrote:

Not sure if it's still the case, but it used to be that the DX (big
Kindle) was the only one that could directly accept PDF files from a PC.
The small one required you to do something like email the file to Amazon
where they "converted" it to your Kindle.

Oooh, THAT is not something I like. Take forever to email everything I
wanted to load up. Ok, I'll just sit back on the sidelines and watch
them evolve a bit more.


Jon

Jon Anderson writes:

My interest in the Amazon Kindle went up greatly when I read it will
hold up to 3500 ebooks. Now I'm not sure yet how many it'll hold in PDF
format,

I just got the $139 Kindle 3 to play with.

Let me just start by saying that the PDF 28th Machinery's Handbook works
very well on this thing. That alone would justify it as a shop tool.
You can fit the pages to the screen and read them with your magnifier
headset. This book is not otherwise available as an ebook.

My other justification was I could flop on the couch and read all those
500-page software manuals in PDF format such as one finds on e.b.e-
ebook.technical, without having to print them out or perch a hot-heavy-
corded laptop on my abdomen. Copying the actual PDF files is easy, as
the device plugs into USB as an ordinary simple storage device.

Some PDFs are quite suitable, such as small-format books that were
scanned as bitmaps. These work almost like a native ebook format, the
pages fitting nicely into the screen size.

Larger formats like magazines and the Osprey military books, in PDF, are
readable, but kind of clumsy with the keyhole effect of the 600x800
display. What works best is to rotate the view into landscape mode,
which can fit the page to the width of the screen.

Jon Anderson writes:

Not sure if it's still the case, but it used to be that the DX (big
Kindle) was the only one that could directly accept PDF files from a PC.
The small one required you to do something like email the file to Amazon
where they "converted" it to your Kindle.

Oooh, THAT is not something I like. Take forever to email everything I
wanted to load up. Ok, I'll just sit back on the sidelines and watch
them evolve a bit more.

No, no, no. The $139 Kindle 3 works natively with PDFs. You just connect
it to your PC via USB, copy the PDF file into it like a USB drive, and its
on there.

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 10/23/2010 9:31 AM, Mike Henry wrote:

Not sure if it's still the case, but it used to be that the DX (big
Kindle) was the only one that could directly accept PDF files from a PC.
The small one required you to do something like email the file to Amazon
where they "converted" it to your Kindle.

Oooh, THAT is not something I like. Take forever to email everything I
wanted to load up. Ok, I'll just sit back on the sidelines and watch them
evolve a bit more.


Nope.
Kindle 3 takes pdf files straight from the PC. No email-conversion
required.
....albeit with the user-interface deficiencies I noted earlier.

--
Jeff R.

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:45:27 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

[ ... ]

And you bring up a really good point about digital libraries. Printed
books can be handed down through several generations or more if cared for.


[ ... ]

So can Ebook formats, if you save them on DVDs/CDs and so forth..or
preferably..a USB hard drive that you refresh every 4-5 yrs

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)

And if you do -- how long will the sylus last on your turntable?

How many have reel-to-reel magnetic tape recorders?

How about wire recorders?

Amy movies in Beta format?

How about the large video disk format?

There are amazing collections of media which are no longer
readable in a practical sense.

For that matter -- how long will CD and DVD recorders be
available?

How many still have 5-1/4" floppy drives on their computers?
(3-1/2" ones are fading away too, and what about 8" ones? I still have
those, but I would have to work to restart the machines which use the 8"
floppys.

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:45:27 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

[ ... ]

And you bring up a really good point about digital libraries. Printed
books can be handed down through several generations or more if cared for.


[ ... ]

So can Ebook formats, if you save them on DVDs/CDs and so forth..or
preferably..a USB hard drive that you refresh every 4-5 yrs

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)


I have at least a dozen turntables that will play 78s.


And if you do -- how long will the sylus last on your turntable?


They are still being made.


How many have reel-to-reel magnetic tape recorders?


A couple. And a broadcast cart machine.


How about wire recorders?


Lost it in a rental warehouse when I got sick.


Amy movies in Beta format?

How about the large video disk format?

There are amazing collections of media which are no longer
readable in a practical sense.

For that matter -- how long will CD and DVD recorders be
available?

How many still have 5-1/4" floppy drives on their computers?


180 KB, 360KB, 720 KB and 1.2MB 5.25".


(3-1/2" ones are fading away too, and what about 8" ones?


720 KB, 808 KB and 1.44 MB 3.5".


I still have those, but I would have to work to restart the machines
which use the 8" floppys.


I still have some half height double sided 8" floppy drives that
don't need AC power, and some floppies.


However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

DoN. Nichols wrote:

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)

And if you do -- how long will the sylus last on your turntable?


Saw a cute USB turntable in Target a while back.



The rest of the rant?

I'd give it a solid 5.



However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.



--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

On 10/23/2010 6:58 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days?

Uh, well, I do! Victrola sitting right next to my desk here. Even have
some new needles. Maybe one of these days I'll see about trying to
record some of the records I have. There's some real classic stuff,
Eddie Cantor's "I Fall Down and Go Boom", and The Banjo Kings are two I
remember in the collection.


Jon

DoN. Nichols wrote:
However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

You know Don, THAT may well become a serious problem
what with the way the public schools are going. :-)
I have been volunteering in a high school metal shop
for about 10 years.
...lew...

"DoN. Nichols" writes:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:45:27 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

[ ... ]

And you bring up a really good point about digital libraries. Printed
books can be handed down through several generations or more if cared for.


[ ... ]

So can Ebook formats, if you save them on DVDs/CDs and so forth..or
preferably..a USB hard drive that you refresh every 4-5 yrs

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

In fairness, building a paper tape readier (given the need) is pretty
straightforward for anybody reading this newsgroup.

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)

Little bit more of a challenge -- though I do have two turntables.

And if you do -- how long will the sylus last on your turntable?

The audio nutcases (when I say I have two turntables, that doesn't mean
I've used them for anything in a decade!).

How many have reel-to-reel magnetic tape recorders?

I do... don't know if it works, though. I don't have a working casette
deck.

How about wire recorders?

This would be another easy one.

Amy movies in Beta format?

How about the large video disk format?

There are amazing collections of media which are no longer
readable in a practical sense.

For that matter -- how long will CD and DVD recorders be
available?

How many still have 5-1/4" floppy drives on their computers?
(3-1/2" ones are fading away too, and what about 8" ones? I still have
those, but I would have to work to restart the machines which use the 8"
floppys.

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)

Anyway, I'm quibbling about some of the formats you've used for
examples, but of course your point is completely valid. You didn't even
get to the digital magtapes!
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)


I have at least a dozen turntables that will play 78s.

[ ... ]

I still have some half height double sided 8" floppy drives that
don't need AC power, and some floppies.

However -- you and I are not typical. (BTW -- I didn't notice
you mentioning that you had the punched tape readers. :-)


However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-10-24, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

You know Don, THAT may well become a serious problem
what with the way the public schools are going. :-)

Yes -- but that would also impact the Kindle as well, since it
is a portable electronic way to display text. (Though some of them can
speak the text as well -- if it has not been prohibited by the copyright
owners. (How many copyrights can keep you from reading a printed book
aloud to your kid at night? :-)

I have been volunteering in a high school metal shop
for about 10 years.

Good for you.

I'm not sure that there *are* any high school metal shops in
this area any more. :-(

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)


I have at least a dozen turntables that will play 78s.

[ ... ]

I still have some half height double sided 8" floppy drives that
don't need AC power, and some floppies.

However -- you and I are not typical. (BTW -- I didn't notice
you mentioning that you had the punched tape readers. :-)


It was in the warehouse I lost when I got sick. Along with a KIM
computer and a dozen 4004 processors. I think the last package of 80
column cards was there as well.

I think I still have the Heathkit paper tape punch/reader manual,
though.


However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.


Some old dot matrix ink faded under flourescent lighting. Of course,
they are 25 yeasr old by now. I wrote a program for the Commodore 64 to
print a paper liner for parts drawers with four lines of text centered
in the front of the drawer to describe it's content. It printed two per
page with lines to cut them to fit, and others of where to fold them so
they were a neat ft in the drawers. I am going to have to resurect a
C64 or write a new version. I had a Windows based C64 emulator program,
but I don't know where it went.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:24:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)


I have at least a dozen turntables that will play 78s.

[ ... ]

I still have some half height double sided 8" floppy drives that
don't need AC power, and some floppies.

However -- you and I are not typical. (BTW -- I didn't notice
you mentioning that you had the punched tape readers. :-)


It was in the warehouse I lost when I got sick. Along with a KIM
computer and a dozen 4004 processors. I think the last package of 80
column cards was there as well.

I think I still have the Heathkit paper tape punch/reader manual,
though.


However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.


Some old dot matrix ink faded under flourescent lighting. Of course,
they are 25 yeasr old by now. I wrote a program for the Commodore 64 to
print a paper liner for parts drawers with four lines of text centered
in the front of the drawer to describe it's content. It printed two per
page with lines to cut them to fit, and others of where to fold them so
they were a neat ft in the drawers. I am going to have to resurect a
C64 or write a new version. I had a Windows based C64 emulator program,
but I don't know where it went.

Need a C64 and a couple drives?

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)


I have at least a dozen turntables that will play 78s.

[ ... ]

I still have some half height double sided 8" floppy drives that
don't need AC power, and some floppies.

However -- you and I are not typical. (BTW -- I didn't notice
you mentioning that you had the punched tape readers. :-)


However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

Enjoy,
DoN.
And then there is the output from thermal printers!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:31:12 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 10/23/2010 6:58 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days?

Uh, well, I do! Victrola sitting right next to my desk here. Even have
some new needles. Maybe one of these days I'll see about trying to
record some of the records I have. There's some real classic stuff,
Eddie Cantor's "I Fall Down and Go Boom", and The Banjo Kings are two I
remember in the collection.


Jon
Somewhere, I have a set of 78's featuring George Formby that my father
gave my uncle for Christmas in the late '40s. they eventually found
their way back to me.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:24:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

How many of you have the ability to read punched tape formats?
(Let's see -- the common ones are 5-level Baudot, and 8-level ASCII
punched tape (from Teletypes and the like), but there are also other bit
codes which used the 8-level punched tape, such as the Freiden
Flexowriter (Sort of an 8-bit version of EBCDIC, but with shift-up and
shift-down codes needed)

And how many people have the equipment to play 78 RPM records
these days? (Let alone Edison cylinder recordings?)


I have at least a dozen turntables that will play 78s.

[ ... ]

I still have some half height double sided 8" floppy drives that
don't need AC power, and some floppies.

However -- you and I are not typical. (BTW -- I didn't notice
you mentioning that you had the punched tape readers. :-)


It was in the warehouse I lost when I got sick. Along with a KIM
computer and a dozen 4004 processors. I think the last package of 80
column cards was there as well.

I think I still have the Heathkit paper tape punch/reader manual,
though.


However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.


Some old dot matrix ink faded under flourescent lighting. Of course,
they are 25 yeasr old by now. I wrote a program for the Commodore 64 to
print a paper liner for parts drawers with four lines of text centered
in the front of the drawer to describe it's content. It printed two per
page with lines to cut them to fit, and others of where to fold them so
they were a neat ft in the drawers. I am going to have to resurect a
C64 or write a new version. I had a Windows based C64 emulator program,
but I don't know where it went.

Need a C64 and a couple drives?


I have abut 35 of them, and a dozen or two drives right now. I
repaired hundreds of c64s, 1541s and other Commodore items back in the
late '80s & early 90s. I have several 3' cubed military shipping
containers full, and a stack of 1541 drives in one of the shops. Due to
the weight, shipping is rather high. I don't think they will fit in a
flat rate box?


I had a stack of the Commodore IEE-488 dot matrix printers, as well.


I could use 1571 or 1581 drives, which are the double sided 5.25" and
the 3.5" drives. I could use two or three 1581 drives if they are cheap
enough.

There was a guy on the west coast (Ray Carlsen) who was buying them
for his vintage computer store. He used to post on the Commodore
newsgroup. I haven't read that group in a couple years and a quick look
on Google groups shows his website is still up, but no activity.

news:comp.sys.cbm

or

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.cbm

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

[ ... ]

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 26 Oct 2010 03:29:14 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

[ ... ]

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
I quickly learned to write out programs for the TI-59 in longhand
rather than file thermal printouts.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-23, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And give your DRM code in your last will and testiment...G

That can preserve the data -- but how long will there be
compatible eBook readers to use those formats? There is a lot of
computer media which can't be read which is less than 50 years old.

[ ... ]

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)


Check out http://www.lulu.com for self publishing.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 2010-10-26, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)


Check out http://www.lulu.com for self publishing.

I didn't see anything which suggested that the print was done
with thermal printing. (Of course, I did not have Flash or JavaScript
enabled -- but would not unless I *needed* their services. :-) And if
they wanted to use thermal printing, I would look elsewhere. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-26, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-24, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

However -- print still works, as long as you have light (and
know how to read, of course). :-)


And the ink hasn't faded.

Yes -- but since most print is carbon based, it will not fade.
The paper itself may disintegrate or darken enough to make reading more
difficult.

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)


Check out http://www.lulu.com for self publishing.

I didn't see anything which suggested that the print was done
with thermal printing. (Of course, I did not have Flash or JavaScript
enabled -- but would not unless I *needed* their services. :-) And if
they wanted to use thermal printing, I would look elsewhere. :-)


Well, Laser printing is a form of thermal printing. ;-)


They do short print runs and print to order, with binding in
paperback or hardbck. Likely laser printing for book on demand orders.
You can design the cover, get an ISBN and lay out the content any way
you want.

There are a bunch of book on demand companies popping up these days,
but Lulu hass been around for a while. If there was enough interest, it
would be a good way to clean up scans of old machine tool manuals and do
limited run reprints.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 2010-10-27, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-26, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)


Check out http://www.lulu.com for self publishing.

I didn't see anything which suggested that the print was done
with thermal printing. (Of course, I did not have Flash or JavaScript
enabled -- but would not unless I *needed* their services. :-) And if
they wanted to use thermal printing, I would look elsewhere. :-)


Well, Laser printing is a form of thermal printing. ;-)

Well ... sort of. It is using the heat to melt the toner which
has been electrostatically attracted to where the print should be.

It is not the same as the thermo-sensitive papers, such as were
used in the "Thermo-fax" copiers once made by 3M, and in some low-budget
or low energy computer/calculator printing systems -- such as the ribbon
printout on the Cannon 4-banger which was my first electronic
calculator. Yes, those would darken fully in a hot car -- or fade from
exposure to UV light. Vastly different from a laser printer (which is a
Xerox machine which is copying an image imagined by a computer, rather
than a real object.)

So -- this kind of publication is unlikely to fade with time --
though if stored in contact with plastic, it will partially transfer to
the plastic, as you may have seen in some three-ring binders. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-27, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-26, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald Miller wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)


Check out http://www.lulu.com for self publishing.

I didn't see anything which suggested that the print was done
with thermal printing. (Of course, I did not have Flash or JavaScript
enabled -- but would not unless I *needed* their services. :-) And if
they wanted to use thermal printing, I would look elsewhere. :-)


Well, Laser printing is a form of thermal printing. ;-)

Well ... sort of. It is using the heat to melt the toner which
has been electrostatically attracted to where the print should be.


My first experince with thermal printing was in Jr. High school in
the mid '60s. I used heat sensitive foils to apply the Dewy decimal
numbers to lots of library books, with a wood burning tool and the
foils.


It is not the same as the thermo-sensitive papers, such as were
used in the "Thermo-fax" copiers once made by 3M, and in some low-budget
or low energy computer/calculator printing systems -- such as the ribbon
printout on the Cannon 4-banger which was my first electronic
calculator. Yes, those would darken fully in a hot car -- or fade from
exposure to UV light. Vastly different from a laser printer (which is a
Xerox machine which is copying an image imagined by a computer, rather
than a real object.)


Or in some cases, it is a combo copier/laser printer. I still have
one of those thremal copiers, and a couple microfiche viewers. One of
them is a printer as well.


So -- this kind of publication is unlikely to fade with time --
though if stored in contact with plastic, it will partially transfer to
the plastic, as you may have seen in some three-ring binders. :-)


What? You never learned to put a blank page in the front and back of
a binder full of lser printed pages? ;-)


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 10/27/2010 9:59 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-27, Michael A. wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-26, Michael A. wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-10-25, Gerald wrote:
On 25 Oct 2010 04:33:43 GMT, "DoN.
wrote:

[ ... ]

Colored inks do fade -- especially red. And the inks commonly
used for handwriting do fade too -- unless you are using India ink.

[ ... ]

And then there is the output from thermal printers!

Well ... yes -- but who publishes (or published) books using
thermal printers? :-) Presumably the Kindle would mostly be used for
books which you purchase and download, not for self publication. :-)


Check out http://www.lulu.com for self publishing.

I didn't see anything which suggested that the print was done
with thermal printing. (Of course, I did not have Flash or JavaScript
enabled -- but would not unless I *needed* their services. :-) And if
they wanted to use thermal printing, I would look elsewhere. :-)


Well, Laser printing is a form of thermal printing. ;-)

Well ... sort of. It is using the heat to melt the toner which
has been electrostatically attracted to where the print should be.


My first experince with thermal printing was in Jr. High school in
the mid '60s. I used heat sensitive foils to apply the Dewy decimal
numbers to lots of library books, with a wood burning tool and the
foils.

Damn! That was you doing that? Small world, it is



--
I can see November from my front porch

RBnDFW wrote:

On 10/27/2010 9:59 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

My first experince with thermal printing was in Jr. High school in
the mid '60s. I used heat sensitive foils to apply the Dewy decimal
numbers to lots of library books, with a wood burning tool and the
foils.

Damn! That was you doing that? Small world, it is


I had to. Our new librarian was too busy flirting with the younger
male teachers to actually do any work, and we had hundreds of new books
waiting to be added to our system. I also repaired torn bindings and
relabeled worn lettering on the covers. It was better than home room or
study hall. And I was the only boy working with all the pretty girls
who volunteered to work in the library. :-)


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.