We had a gunsmoke luncheon and social today: Todd 'n Laura, Brian,
Dave (works with Todd, new to us), Mary 'n me.

Dave is a quiet guy, probably mid 40's, works at Medtronics. Very
probably a senior engineer or IT guy. Todd is working there on a
project of some kind. I think I can guess the general nature knowing
Todd's general area of expertise, but I also suspect that Todd would
prefer I'd not guess and it doesn't matter anyway.

Dave didn't bring any guns, but he's obviously a shooter. The idea
to invite Dave might have occurred to Todd only this morning. Our
gunsmoke luncheon social group always has plenty of guns,ammo, and
willingness to share any and all. Dave was interested in
collecting Todd's spent brass and, upon inquiry, said he reloads. I
expect his pistol is a Glock, probably .40, because Todd's Glock .40
seemed to be what he was shooting most and that was the brass he was
interested in collecting. He did try Doc, our stainless Smith &
Wesson 686 .357 magnum, with full magnum loads that fetched a big
grin. I don't even make powderpuff rounds anymore, just magnums.
That revolver is much more fun with magnums. I just love the
quizzical looks when the routine popping of .22's 9's, 40's, and
..45's is punctuated by the boom, flash and cloud of smoke from that
..357, as in "what the **** was that?" Everyone of either gender
who shoots it loves it. It doesn't hurt and it's a hell of a show.
Dave's muzzle control with a .40 is excellent but the .357 was
rockin' him a bit. Didn't affect his accuracy, just widened his grin.
That's how it works with nearly all who try it.

Everyone was shooting well today. Laura wasn't as jawdroppingly good
as I've seen her when she's really cookin', but she was doing OK
with her .40. .40 is not an easy caliber to shoot well, but she
does. She enjoyed trying out my Para Carry 9 and Mary's Lil' Sig
..380. Nobody I know can shoot that little Sig like Mary does. She
can shoot about anything respectably, but it's like that little Sig
was custom-made to fit her hand.

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.

OK, though range-realistic that's a silly postulate for a **** sit.
You know that .380 is 9mm short. How about 8 rounds of 9mm 90-grain
bullets accurately delivered to center of mass with some head shots?
You know that ****sits are not range-like aimed-fire sits, they're
point-and-shoot sits with both threat and shooter in motion.

If you can hand-hold a .50BMG like Sly Stallone in the movies, then
that'd be a good choice for you. Mary can't do that, nor can I at age
68.

At one point, Brian suggested a little competition. That would be
Brian, he's a competitive guy. Each of 5 of us wrote our names on
one target on a 5-bull sheet. Quietly understated Mary was quite
content not to join the competition. Range that Brian set was
quite short, possibly as little as 15 feet. I'd been shooting my
Carry 9 semiauto 9mm, but when it was my turn to shoot at the
competition target I brought Doc to the firing line. Doc is so named
because I bought it from a professor at Central Michigan University
whose web nym is Doc. Doc is fitted with a laser embedded in the
grip that puts a red dot on the point of aim. My presbyopic old eyes
have a bit of trouble focussing on sights and target at the same time,
but I can sure see that red dot. When the smoke cleared, it was clear
that I'd shot the 1" dia orange center right out of that target
with 6 rounds in about 9 seconds. I got a bunch of "boo, hiss,
that's cheating!" "Whaddya mean cheating?" Todd held up his hand
with splayed fingers, took a pugnacious forward-leaning
drill-sergeant stance, ticked off the charges on his fingers: one:
REVOLVER! Two: LASER!" He has a big, square face and is built
like a rainbarrel fulla ferroconcrete It was hilarious, especially
from Todd who is one of the gentlest (and brightest) people I know.
"I din't hear no rules saying no revolvers or lasers, and anyway
lasers aren't cheating for shooters over 65. And besides that , it's
foolish not to cheat in a gunfight." That got a chorus of "um, yeah,
err, well all right then."

Brian's target was about unbelievable. He was shooting a Springfield
XD .40, had four holes touching. I didn't think that pistol could
shoot that well even off a rest even at that short range and he was
shooting offhand. He tossed a fifth round clear out of the black
and then I think he decided to quit while he was ahead, but those
first four were quite remarkable. I think the XD .40 holds 12
rounds.

Winning is important to Brian. We all understand that, not a problem
at all. He's good company and he shares well.

Todd said he and Laura are on to shoot at the Sherriff's range soon.
They make a significant contribution to charity to shoot with the
Sherriff's deputies. If they can shoot better, then they get a
sweatshirt that proclaims "I OUTSHOT THE SHERRIFF". I think they'll
both get sweatshirts.

Lunch was excellent. There's a Mex joint about a mile from the Circle
Pines range. I'm glad this group has decided they like that one
better than the one in Robbinsdale, because I sure do. It's a bit
further drive from their workplace ... ah, but Todd's working at
Medtronics which is about 6 blocks from there and Brian worked at home
this morning until they got the roads plowed out in Isanti county
after the snowstorm.

There's a convenient Greek joint right next to Bill's in Robbinsdale,
but driving a mile for lunch from the range in Circle Pines is
acceptable. I had a Chimichanga which may have been the best I'ver
ever had. Mary gives them top marks too. Not a fancy venue, but
very good grub.

Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
this is gonna turn out."

Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

....
Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
this is gonna turn out."

Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

Last night was brutal! makes me dream of a fishing trip. Maybe you should
come too.

Karl

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:44:08 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


...
Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
this is gonna turn out."

Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

Last night was brutal! makes me dream of a fishing trip. Maybe you should
come too.

Karl

Last Friday, I actually saw a flurry here in central Texas (moved back
from Michigan a month or so ago). Everybody was freaked out at even
the possibility of snow, and a lot stayed home. It didn't stick. The
scary thing isn't a little snow, it's the sight of Texans driving on
snow. The thought is almost enough to make me stay home, too.

This morning it's 30 F. I can handle that. No snow in sight, as it
should be.

Pete Keillor

Great piece, Don! And delivered in the usual fantastic Foreman foremat. That lazer optic on your
357 hog is about as much electronics as one should see mixed in with the shooting arts. Oh well !
Maybe a chrono, but only if you roll your own.

Bob Swinney
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
We had a gunsmoke luncheon and social today: Todd 'n Laura, Brian,
Dave (works with Todd, new to us), Mary 'n me.

Dave is a quiet guy, probably mid 40's, works at Medtronics. Very
probably a senior engineer or IT guy. Todd is working there on a
project of some kind. I think I can guess the general nature knowing
Todd's general area of expertise, but I also suspect that Todd would
prefer I'd not guess and it doesn't matter anyway.

Dave didn't bring any guns, but he's obviously a shooter. The idea
to invite Dave might have occurred to Todd only this morning. Our
gunsmoke luncheon social group always has plenty of guns,ammo, and
willingness to share any and all. Dave was interested in
collecting Todd's spent brass and, upon inquiry, said he reloads. I
expect his pistol is a Glock, probably .40, because Todd's Glock .40
seemed to be what he was shooting most and that was the brass he was
interested in collecting. He did try Doc, our stainless Smith &
Wesson 686 .357 magnum, with full magnum loads that fetched a big
grin. I don't even make powderpuff rounds anymore, just magnums.
That revolver is much more fun with magnums. I just love the
quizzical looks when the routine popping of .22's 9's, 40's, and
..45's is punctuated by the boom, flash and cloud of smoke from that
..357, as in "what the **** was that?" Everyone of either gender
who shoots it loves it. It doesn't hurt and it's a hell of a show.
Dave's muzzle control with a .40 is excellent but the .357 was
rockin' him a bit. Didn't affect his accuracy, just widened his grin.
That's how it works with nearly all who try it.

Everyone was shooting well today. Laura wasn't as jawdroppingly good
as I've seen her when she's really cookin', but she was doing OK
with her .40. .40 is not an easy caliber to shoot well, but she
does. She enjoyed trying out my Para Carry 9 and Mary's Lil' Sig
..380. Nobody I know can shoot that little Sig like Mary does. She
can shoot about anything respectably, but it's like that little Sig
was custom-made to fit her hand.

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.

OK, though range-realistic that's a silly postulate for a **** sit.
You know that .380 is 9mm short. How about 8 rounds of 9mm 90-grain
bullets accurately delivered to center of mass with some head shots?
You know that ****sits are not range-like aimed-fire sits, they're
point-and-shoot sits with both threat and shooter in motion.

If you can hand-hold a .50BMG like Sly Stallone in the movies, then
that'd be a good choice for you. Mary can't do that, nor can I at age
68.

At one point, Brian suggested a little competition. That would be
Brian, he's a competitive guy. Each of 5 of us wrote our names on
one target on a 5-bull sheet. Quietly understated Mary was quite
content not to join the competition. Range that Brian set was
quite short, possibly as little as 15 feet. I'd been shooting my
Carry 9 semiauto 9mm, but when it was my turn to shoot at the
competition target I brought Doc to the firing line. Doc is so named
because I bought it from a professor at Central Michigan University
whose web nym is Doc. Doc is fitted with a laser embedded in the
grip that puts a red dot on the point of aim. My presbyopic old eyes
have a bit of trouble focussing on sights and target at the same time,
but I can sure see that red dot. When the smoke cleared, it was clear
that I'd shot the 1" dia orange center right out of that target
with 6 rounds in about 9 seconds. I got a bunch of "boo, hiss,
that's cheating!" "Whaddya mean cheating?" Todd held up his hand
with splayed fingers, took a pugnacious forward-leaning
drill-sergeant stance, ticked off the charges on his fingers: one:
REVOLVER! Two: LASER!" He has a big, square face and is built
like a rainbarrel fulla ferroconcrete It was hilarious, especially
from Todd who is one of the gentlest (and brightest) people I know.
"I din't hear no rules saying no revolvers or lasers, and anyway
lasers aren't cheating for shooters over 65. And besides that , it's
foolish not to cheat in a gunfight." That got a chorus of "um, yeah,
err, well all right then."

Brian's target was about unbelievable. He was shooting a Springfield
XD .40, had four holes touching. I didn't think that pistol could
shoot that well even off a rest even at that short range and he was
shooting offhand. He tossed a fifth round clear out of the black
and then I think he decided to quit while he was ahead, but those
first four were quite remarkable. I think the XD .40 holds 12
rounds.

Winning is important to Brian. We all understand that, not a problem
at all. He's good company and he shares well.

Todd said he and Laura are on to shoot at the Sherriff's range soon.
They make a significant contribution to charity to shoot with the
Sherriff's deputies. If they can shoot better, then they get a
sweatshirt that proclaims "I OUTSHOT THE SHERRIFF". I think they'll
both get sweatshirts.

Lunch was excellent. There's a Mex joint about a mile from the Circle
Pines range. I'm glad this group has decided they like that one
better than the one in Robbinsdale, because I sure do. It's a bit
further drive from their workplace ... ah, but Todd's working at
Medtronics which is about 6 blocks from there and Brian worked at home
this morning until they got the roads plowed out in Isanti county
after the snowstorm.

There's a convenient Greek joint right next to Bill's in Robbinsdale,
but driving a mile for lunch from the range in Circle Pines is
acceptable. I had a Chimichanga which may have been the best I'ver
ever had. Mary gives them top marks too. Not a fancy venue, but
very good grub.

Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
this is gonna turn out."

Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

Don Foreman wrote:

Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

I feel the same way about Michigan and winter.

Were you shooting indoors or outdoors?

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:52:22 -0500, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.

I feel the same way about Michigan and winter.

Were you shooting indoors or outdoors?

Wes

Indoor 50 yd range. The gunsmoke luncheons and socials with this
group happen about monthly during the winter season. I won't be
shooting outdoors again until the snow is gone, probably early to mid
April.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing



I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing



I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.

Run a Hogans Alley course recently? Id love to see the video.
Simunitions and return fire of course.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing


I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.

Run a Hogans Alley course recently? Id love to see the video.
Simunitions and return fire of course.

Gunner



Nope. I've never done that.

But I've been through quite a few live fire fights.
Of course, those were with an M-60, not a pop gun...

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:03 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing


I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.

Run a Hogans Alley course recently? Id love to see the video.
Simunitions and return fire of course.

Gunner



Nope. I've never done that.

But I've been through quite a few live fire fights.
Of course, those were with an M-60, not a pop gun...


Then Ill hold off on calling you Golden. Its much different being in a
firefight up close and personal with a handgun, than having a running
firefight armed with a ****load of 7.62 and a hose.

Its hard enough to focus well enough to hit the bad guy with your
single trigger squeeze...but to hit him in the face, heart etc etc....

Shrug....been there, done that, both in the Machine and on the street.

As I said..Ill stick with something big enough that even a marginal hit
will cause him/them to stop shooting back.

Damned shame they dont make an expanding 12ga that fits in your back
pocket until needed.

Gunner



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:09:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
.......................

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing
........................

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL

GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:09:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
......................

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing
.......................

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL


That last couple of paragraphs - I can really relate to.

This is not something you shrug off lightly no matter how it played out.

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:14:47 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:03 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing


I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.

Run a Hogans Alley course recently? Id love to see the video.
Simunitions and return fire of course.

Gunner



Nope. I've never done that.

But I've been through quite a few live fire fights.
Of course, those were with an M-60, not a pop gun...


Then Ill hold off on calling you Golden. Its much different being in a
firefight up close and personal with a handgun, than having a running
firefight armed with a ****load of 7.62 and a hose.

Its hard enough to focus well enough to hit the bad guy with your
single trigger squeeze...but to hit him in the face, heart etc etc....

Shrug....been there, done that, both in the Machine and on the street.

As I said..Ill stick with something big enough that even a marginal hit
will cause him/them to stop shooting back.

Damned shame they dont make an expanding 12ga that fits in your back
pocket until needed.

EG One with terminal guidance. Like the Dum-dums Eddie had in his
gat in _Who Shot Roger Rabbit?_ Yeah, smart bullets ... that's the
ticket.

That ought to be easier to use than the 24/7 overwatch and
protection detail.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:02:53 -0500, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:09:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
......................

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing
.......................

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL


Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...

Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?

As Flim Flam indicated..he brain locked and passed up the tools he
should have used

"To give you an idea how much the mind goes during something like this--
I passed up my Beretta 92 lying on my reloading bench all ready to go,
with one up the pipe. I passed up an AK all loaded up by the door. I
didn't have time to get to my 870 in the 'ready rack' ( yeah, right) all
ready to go. Couldn't make it to my AR all ready to go. There were a lot
of things around the store that I couldn't just place my hands upon."


Think you are going to be connected to the guy trying to kill you by the
length of the sword stuck in your guts, with any great regularlity?

Shrug...hey...carry what you want. Its YOUR life, not mine.

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
..25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:02:53 -0500, the infamous GeoLane at PTD dot
NET GeoLane at PTD dot NET scrawled the following:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:09:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
......................

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing
.......................

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

OUCH! Luckily, the guy was only a wannabe ninja, huh?

--
This episode raises disturbing questions about scientific standards,
at least in highly political areas such as global warming. Still,
it's remarkable to see how quickly corrective information can now
spread. After years of ignored freedom-of-information requests and
stonewalling, all it took was disclosure to change the debate. Even
the most influential scientists must prove their case in the court
of public opinion—a court that, thanks to the Web, is one where
eventually all views get a hearing. --Gordon Crovitz, WSJ 12/9/09

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.


James Bond, whose exploits are every bit as real as yours, favors a
..25. But certainly there are other experts whose opinions we should
seek out. Anybody have an email address for Deputy Dawg or Elmer Fudd?

Wayne

On Dec 19, 9:14*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:03 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:



Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. *As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill *you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing

I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.

Run a Hogans Alley course recently? *Id love to see the video.
Simunitions and return fire of course.

Gunner

Nope. *I've never done that.

But I've been through quite a few live fire fights.
Of course, those were with an M-60, not a pop gun...

Then Ill hold off on calling you Golden. *Its much different being in a
firefight up close and personal with a handgun, than having a running
firefight armed with a ****load of 7.62 and a hose.

Its hard enough to focus well enough to hit the bad guy with *your
single trigger squeeze...but to hit him in the face, heart etc etc....

Shrug....been there, done that, both in the Machine and on the street.

As I said..Ill stick with something big enough that even a marginal hit
will cause him/them to stop shooting back.

Damned shame they dont make an expanding 12ga that fits in your back
pocket until needed.

Gunner

If I read this correctly, Gunner claims to have shot people in the
street. If so, there certainly should be a record of it somewhere. I
wonder if Gunner would be so kind as to produce such record?

If not, This is just another of his lies.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:02:53 -0500, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:09:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
......................

Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?

If you can..you are golden.

Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing
.......................

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL


Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...

Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?

As Flim Flam indicated..he brain locked and passed up the tools he
should have used

"To give you an idea how much the mind goes during something like this--
I passed up my Beretta 92 lying on my reloading bench all ready to go,
with one up the pipe. I passed up an AK all loaded up by the door. I
didn't have time to get to my 870 in the 'ready rack' ( yeah, right) all
ready to go. Couldn't make it to my AR all ready to go. There were a lot
of things around the store that I couldn't just place my hands upon."


Think you are going to be connected to the guy trying to kill you by the
length of the sword stuck in your guts, with any great regularlity?

Shrug...hey...carry what you want. Its YOUR life, not mine.

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

One standard issue for police up through the 1920s was .32 Colt New Police,
which is the same thing as .32 S&W Long. But there were more legal reasons
to shoot in those days.



And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And which branch of the US military does the same?

None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:46:19 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.


James Bond, whose exploits are every bit as real as yours, favors a
.25. But certainly there are other experts whose opinions we should
seek out. Anybody have an email address for Deputy Dawg or Elmer Fudd?

Wayne

In early novels James Bond favored the Walther PPK which was made in
..32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.


And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:58:35 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:46:19 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.


James Bond, whose exploits are every bit as real as yours, favors a
.25. But certainly there are other experts whose opinions we should
seek out. Anybody have an email address for Deputy Dawg or Elmer Fudd?

Wayne

In early novels James Bond favored the Walther PPK which was made in
.32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Bond_firearms

"he introduced Bond as using a Beretta 418"

"The Beretta 418 in 6.35 mm (.25 ACP)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_418

"007's weapon of choice, his .25 calibre Beretta was taken from him in
Dr. No when M called in the armourer for advice"

http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/q-branch/beretta.php3

No pertinent snorf articles on Fudd or Dawg, so you expirts are free
to argue over which weapons they favored and if they'd be good for
shark shooting. Oh, and don't forget to whine about the i in expirt,
since I'd hate to think that I overrode the spellchecker for nothing.

Wayne

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
And which branch of the US military does the same?
None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.


And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?

Gunner


To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner Asch wrote:

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.

Gunner

You still don't get the point that the reason such small guns are used
is that they are, in many cases, the only concealed option available.
No one prefers a .25 over a .45 if the .45 can be concealed, often it
can't.

David

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?

Baader-Meinhof and the other RAF types are the reason European cops
went from the common 7.65X17 to 9x19.

David

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:33:38 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
And which branch of the US military does the same?
None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.


And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?

Gunner


To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.


Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.

Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
removing stuck screws?

Gunner




"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:19:37 -0600, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

Ill be waiting with interest.

Gunner

You still don't get the point that the reason such small guns are used
is that they are, in many cases, the only concealed option available.
No one prefers a .25 over a .45 if the .45 can be concealed, often it
can't.

David

An appropriate firearm sufficent to the task cannot be concealed? Then
why would anyone dress in such a fashion?

Speedos and a towel do make it a bit hard to carry. But anything
else...they simply need to know how to dress themselves.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:21:57 -0600, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?

Baader-Meinhof and the other RAF types are the reason European cops
went from the common 7.65X17 to 9x19.

David


Ayup. Seems that they too were looking for a gun appropriate to the
task...big enough to do the job.

Can anyone tell me why?

G

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL

............

Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...

Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?

.........................

Nah. I'd agree with you there, but it reinforces that any gun is
better than no gun. How much gun you carry or whether you carry at
all is a personal choice and a matter of how much risk you're likely
to face.

RWL

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:30:54 -0500, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:


It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL

...........

Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...

Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?

........................

Nah. I'd agree with you there, but it reinforces that any gun is
better than no gun. How much gun you carry or whether you carry at
all is a personal choice and a matter of how much risk you're likely
to face.

RWL


Well DUH...of course any gun is better than no gun. But why the devil
should one carry an Almost Gun in lew of a real one?????

Thats like having a Chiwawa as a guard dog rather than a german shepard.

Yes....the TacoBell dog will make noise and perhaps even attack the bad
guy, but the chances of him stopping a determined attacker immediately
is pretty slim, no?

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:30:54 -0500, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:

It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=39761

RWL
...........

Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...
Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?
........................

Nah. I'd agree with you there, but it reinforces that any gun is
better than no gun. How much gun you carry or whether you carry at
all is a personal choice and a matter of how much risk you're likely
to face.

RWL


Well DUH...of course any gun is better than no gun. But why the devil
should one carry an Almost Gun in lew of a real one?????

Thats like having a Chiwawa as a guard dog rather than a german shepard.

Yes....the TacoBell dog will make noise and perhaps even attack the bad
guy, but the chances of him stopping a determined attacker immediately
is pretty slim, no?

Gunner


It's just because every time I stuff my .50 in my pocket,
the girls won't leave me alone!

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:45:23 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.


Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.

As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
no third alternative.

Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
removing stuck screws?

If it is a plastic screw ....???


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:16:54 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:45:23 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.


Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.

As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
no third alternative.

Indeed. And one can use Slowly Lethal Force and still wind up involved
in the 3rd option.

Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
removing stuck screws?

If it is a plastic screw ....???

Lots of plastic bad guys out there?

Gunner



pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:00:09 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:16:54 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:45:23 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.


Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.

As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
no third alternative.

Indeed. And one can use Slowly Lethal Force and still wind up involved
in the 3rd option.

Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
removing stuck screws?

If it is a plastic screw ....???

Lots of plastic bad guys out there?

Plastic Ono Band?
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 12:18:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.


And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?

Gunner

Soldiers are there to aggressively engage and destroy the enemy. They
pursue armed combat. If there isn't a battle going on they hunt the
enemy with intent to destroy. The likelihood that a combat soldier
will get shot at and need to shoot others to survive is 100%. The
preferred weapons are SA and FA rifles and sometimes shotguns, not
handguns.

According to NRA data (I think), something like 90% of civilian armed
confrontations result in no shots fired. Maybe I saw that in one of
Ayoob's books. The caliber of shots not fired is immaterial.

If you think you might actually need to stop an assailant with fire
then you should indeed pack the heaviest caliber you can shoot
reasonably well and are willing to pack.

Most civilians consider it highly unlikely that they will ever be
confronted by an armed assailant when out and about, especially if
evasion and/or avoidance are possible as is usually the case. I'm one
of those. However, it's generally accepted by authorities (e.g.
Ayoob) that some people may well be regarded by predators as "easy
prey", e.g. seniors and women. I'm one of those, being 68. For
these people, there may be times, places or situations where we feel
that ability to display/deploy a defensive weapon could act as
deterrent merely by dispelling the notion that we are easy prey. No
shots fired. Statistics suggest that we'd be right for about 90% of
such unlikely encounters.

Since I have never once been attacked in the 43 years since leaving
the military, I don't feel that the superior stopping power of a
"serious" caliber would warrant the inconvenience of carry for me. I
think the likelihood of my ever shooting anyone for the rest of my
life is vanishingly small. That's not to imply that you're wrong or
that I disagree with your choice of carry. Perhaps you go in
dangerous places or have some nasty enemies. I don't. I know that
there are times when even a .45 isn't quite enough. Handguns are what
soldiers use to fight their way to a rifle.

Nor do I disagree with the vast majority of civilians who feel no need
to ever carry any sort of self defense arm. Very few citizens become
victims as a result of that choice. We each and all get to choose our
risks. I carried no weapon other than a blade for 43 years and do so
only rarely now. A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
a fatally poor choice for a gunfight but it's considerably more
defense than pepper spray, a cellphone, or the .45 I left at home
rather than bother with it.

As a matter of risk assessment: if you are still ever smoking at all,
that presents significantly higher risk to you than not carrying a DRT
(dead right there) caliber handgun. More folks get away with smoking
than don't, but smoking is very risky for we who have had bypass
surgery and take beta blocker meds. I've not become a PITA
anti-smoking evangelist, just sayin' as a fellow traveller. Pick yer
pony, take yer ride. I think Larry Jock is right: it's less a matter
of discipline than a decision to be done. Discipline may be necessary
to make the trip.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:11:44 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
a fatally poor choice for a gunfight

Bingo.

So if you carry a rabbits foot and hope/pray, given your lack of
external threat...you should be perfectly safe, correct? So why bother
carrying?

Im a bit nonplussed because of people carrying a "fatally poor choice
for a gunfight" because they may become involved in a gunfight at some
time in their lives.

Blink blink...blink.

There are other choices of similar size in more appropriate
calibers..which is why Im fascinated by folks claiming that the "fatally
poor choice" they made is better than those other more appropriate
calibers.

Its well known that there are pocket sized 9mm Paras, .40s, 45s, 357s
and so forth that are about the same size as the average .380.

Shrug...a Detectives Special with a decent 125gr JHP is FAR FAR superior
to a .380 of any sort. And its a .38 Special Revolver.

But thanks for your clear explaination of your thinking process on the
subject.

Not one of course..that I agree with in the
slightest..shrug..but...shrug

Im also curious as to why folks simply dont carry a plastic replica of a
firearm. Being hollow and of plastic..they weigh nearly nothing and as
you say..they might work in 90% of the situations.

That other pesky 10% however.....shrug.......


Gunner




"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Dec 20, 7:45*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:33:38 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:



Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe. *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". *I am not one either. *

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
And which branch of the US military does the same?
None. *When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.

And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?

Gunner

To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and *strains both feet.


As I said earlier, If Gunner has shot someone outside of military
service, there should be a public record. If he can't produce a police
record or, at least, a newspaper clipping, then he is, as usual, full
of ****. And yes, I'd be glad to say that to his face.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:58:11 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:11:44 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
a fatally poor choice for a gunfight

Bingo.

So if you carry a rabbits foot and hope/pray, given your lack of
external threat...you should be perfectly safe, correct? So why bother
carrying?

Bingo. I usually don't. No rabbit's foot required, just threat
assessment. YMMV.

Im a bit nonplussed because of people carrying a "fatally poor choice
for a gunfight" because they may become involved in a gunfight at some
time in their lives.

I explained that I don't expect to ever be involved in a gunfight as a
senior civilian.

There are other choices of similar size in more appropriate
calibers..which is why Im fascinated by folks claiming that the "fatally
poor choice" they made is better than those other more appropriate
calibers.

Appropriate? If "appropriate" means maximum stop/drop power you
should be armed with a rifle or shotgun. Perhaps you are, and your
situation may require that. To me, "appropriate" means suitable for
my circumstances which is one step up from a can of pepper spray.

Its well known that there are pocket sized 9mm Paras, .40s, 45s, 357s
and so forth that are about the same size as the average .380.

I have a Para LDA in 9mmp and a Colt Officer's .45. Both are somewhat
bulkier than my .380 so at present I'm not motivated to carry either.
If that changes, they're available to me and I'm skilled with them.

Let the Record show that Larry Jaques
on or about Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:56:54 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:29:57 -0800, the infamous pyotr filipivich
scrawled the following:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:00:09 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:16:54 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:45:23 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?

How many people here have EVER shot anybody?

Show of hands, please?

Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.


Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.

As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
no third alternative.

Indeed. And one can use Slowly Lethal Force and still wind up involved
in the 3rd option.

Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
removing stuck screws?

If it is a plastic screw ....???

Lots of plastic bad guys out there?

Plastic Ono Band?

Pete, did you just utter the musical equivalent of Godwin's Law with
that last line?

I hope not. It was the first to come to mind - plastic and bad
guys. I mean, it wasn't like some of the other Astroturf, prefabbed
bands, usually aimed at tweeners and early teens.
Oh dear, I just realized. The Pre-fab Four (and their latest
variants) were a marketing strategy aimed at teenagers; the Plastic
Ono Band was aimed at "adults". Oh dear Lord in heaven, have mercy on
us all ...




-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --

I got in touch with my feminine side. She slapped me, and got an
restraining order.


pyotr

-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!