On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 12:18:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?

PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.

Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.

And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?

And which branch of the US military does the same?

None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.


And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?

Gunner

Soldiers are there to aggressively engage and destroy the enemy. They
pursue armed combat. If there isn't a battle going on they hunt the
enemy with intent to destroy. The likelihood that a combat soldier
will get shot at and need to shoot others to survive is 100%. The
preferred weapons are SA and FA rifles and sometimes shotguns, not
handguns.

According to NRA data (I think), something like 90% of civilian armed
confrontations result in no shots fired. Maybe I saw that in one of
Ayoob's books. The caliber of shots not fired is immaterial.

If you think you might actually need to stop an assailant with fire
then you should indeed pack the heaviest caliber you can shoot
reasonably well and are willing to pack.

Most civilians consider it highly unlikely that they will ever be
confronted by an armed assailant when out and about, especially if
evasion and/or avoidance are possible as is usually the case. I'm one
of those. However, it's generally accepted by authorities (e.g.
Ayoob) that some people may well be regarded by predators as "easy
prey", e.g. seniors and women. I'm one of those, being 68. For
these people, there may be times, places or situations where we feel
that ability to display/deploy a defensive weapon could act as
deterrent merely by dispelling the notion that we are easy prey. No
shots fired. Statistics suggest that we'd be right for about 90% of
such unlikely encounters.

Since I have never once been attacked in the 43 years since leaving
the military, I don't feel that the superior stopping power of a
"serious" caliber would warrant the inconvenience of carry for me. I
think the likelihood of my ever shooting anyone for the rest of my
life is vanishingly small. That's not to imply that you're wrong or
that I disagree with your choice of carry. Perhaps you go in
dangerous places or have some nasty enemies. I don't. I know that
there are times when even a .45 isn't quite enough. Handguns are what
soldiers use to fight their way to a rifle.

Nor do I disagree with the vast majority of civilians who feel no need
to ever carry any sort of self defense arm. Very few citizens become
victims as a result of that choice. We each and all get to choose our
risks. I carried no weapon other than a blade for 43 years and do so
only rarely now. A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
a fatally poor choice for a gunfight but it's considerably more
defense than pepper spray, a cellphone, or the .45 I left at home
rather than bother with it.

As a matter of risk assessment: if you are still ever smoking at all,
that presents significantly higher risk to you than not carrying a DRT
(dead right there) caliber handgun. More folks get away with smoking
than don't, but smoking is very risky for we who have had bypass
surgery and take beta blocker meds. I've not become a PITA
anti-smoking evangelist, just sayin' as a fellow traveller. Pick yer
pony, take yer ride. I think Larry Jock is right: it's less a matter
of discipline than a decision to be done. Discipline may be necessary
to make the trip.