On Dec 23, 4:47*pm, pyotr filipivich wrote:

* * * * Or something. * Say, you recon I can claim Native American
Heritage, seeing as how I've ancestors who were here before it there
was a United States?

pyotr

A member of Bering's expedition?

I don't think Yakut or Evenk ancestry counts unless you can prove that
they turned around and went back.

I had a Cherokee great-great grandmother, if that means anything. When
I was young I met her 109-year-old daughter.

jsw

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:47:26 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:47:57 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Funny thing about the part indian. My aunt was part Cherokee. And after my
cousin put down part American Indian on his paper work, he went swiftly up
to high positions in a police dept. He said it was amazing how that changed
his profile.

Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
bigots!!

Snerk.. I can't recall who I heard it from first, but they
commented "I work for myself. Which is kind of good, I'm in with the
boss. But on the other hand, when I call in 'sick' I know I'm lying
to me."

Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the ****ter..Ill
apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.

Or something. Say, you recon I can claim Native American
Heritage, seeing as how I've ancestors who were here before it there
was a United States?

Hmmm, or I could get a matricular card, which indicated I was a
displaced Apache or other Native American from down near the border
area....
An undocumented immigrant native American. If I put down that I'm
also handicapped, a transponder lesbian of a non-traditional religion,
the Democrats would have to hire me!

pyotr


A lady friend of mine...ex MASH nurse..wounded and lost a leg. She
became head of Nursing in a major metro hospital in the 80s, after
ponderng a bit and then declaring she was a Crippled Lesbian Transgender
Black. She is of course not black, but rather dark and has a very nice
husband and 3 kids. But it was up to the hospital to prove she wasnt a
Lesbian Transgender Black..and they simply didnt want to. Seems they
wanted someone competent they could put up on a pedistal and meet all
the "criteria" of said description. She is getting ready to retire..and
has become a PA in her own clinic...makes some seriously good money
working for the poor.

So maybe Ill ponder a bit and work up a really good description for
myself.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Dec 23, 8:26*am, Gunner Asch wrote:

If you consider your personal firearm to be simply a rabbits foot,
rather than a piece of ordnance to defend your life..all the power to
you.

I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death. *Ive seen more
than my share of each over the years..and understand thats its far far
closer than we might wish.


Gunner


If you want to assure that you can defend yourself, you really need to
carry something other than a pistol. A pistol is what you carry when
you think you are not going to need a gun. The army does not issue
pistols to troops to use in battles. The police do not issue pistols
to SWAT teams.

Don's approach is more realistic than yours. He is not expecting to
need a gun. Picking a pistol that he is more likely to carry, makes
sense. The odds that someone will decide to attack Don is extremely
small. The odds that they would attack Don knowing that he has some
sort of pistol is several orders of magnitude smaller.

It is sort of like the two guys walking in the woods and came across a
bear. One of them ran away. The other one stood his ground. Later
the one that stood his ground asked the other one why he ran. "Don't
you know you can't outrun a bear?" And the answer was " I don't have
to out run the bear. I just have to out run you."

Don does not have to be invincible. He just has to be a tougher
prospect for a mugging than the average person.

Dan

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:59:09 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:52:21 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:26:29 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
die..the threat scenario is the same.

Bingo, Gunner, therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints. I
understand shoot-or-die situations, and I don't have or want any in my
civilian dotage. I regard the likelihood of my encountering a
shoot-or-die situation as far too low to tolerate the inconvenience of
packing a .45 (or even a .380) routinely.


Indeed.

However...what you want..or dont want..really really has little meaning
in the grand scheme of things.

Don't *have* or want. Very unlikely that I will encounter.
Considerably less mortal risk to me than cigarettes would be if I
still smoked.

and I will pray for you that it shall be so.


Just remember..you can only use what you brung...and if you didnt bring
enough...there are no time outs while you go home and get something
better.

I do understand that. That's exactly why I have the .380: it's
considerably more than nothing, and easy enough to carry that I
occasionally do drop it in my pocket on the way out the door. If it
isn't enough then I'll be out of luck. I'm quite comfortable with
that. I'm confident that it's more than enough for where and how I
live, at least at present. If condx here change then I'll either
modify my approach or move.

Good for you.

I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death.

Perhaps for your situation. Your approach would be unrealistic for me.
Just out of curiosity though..do you wear seat belts while
driving..and
do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers around the homestead?

I do indeed. However, I don't wear body armor or carry a rifle, gas
mask or first aid kit when out and about.

Yes and? Did any of those ever come up in conversation? G Or are you
just being argumentative?

The latter, of course! G

Now one never expects a traffic accident, or a fire in ones home. And
statistically..few ever happen.

Statistically speaking: the Fridley Fire Department responded to 2943
calls in 2008. There was 1 murder. I don't know how many traffic
accidents, but it's moot because use of seatbelts is required by law
in MN.

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:33:12 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:59:09 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:52:21 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:26:29 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
die..the threat scenario is the same.

Bingo, Gunner, therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints. I
understand shoot-or-die situations, and I don't have or want any in my
civilian dotage. I regard the likelihood of my encountering a
shoot-or-die situation as far too low to tolerate the inconvenience of
packing a .45 (or even a .380) routinely.


Indeed.

However...what you want..or dont want..really really has little meaning
in the grand scheme of things.

Don't *have* or want. Very unlikely that I will encounter.
Considerably less mortal risk to me than cigarettes would be if I
still smoked.

and I will pray for you that it shall be so.


Just remember..you can only use what you brung...and if you didnt bring
enough...there are no time outs while you go home and get something
better.

I do understand that. That's exactly why I have the .380: it's
considerably more than nothing, and easy enough to carry that I
occasionally do drop it in my pocket on the way out the door. If it
isn't enough then I'll be out of luck. I'm quite comfortable with
that. I'm confident that it's more than enough for where and how I
live, at least at present. If condx here change then I'll either
modify my approach or move.

Good for you.

I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death.

Perhaps for your situation. Your approach would be unrealistic for me.
Just out of curiosity though..do you wear seat belts while
driving..and
do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers around the homestead?

I do indeed. However, I don't wear body armor or carry a rifle, gas
mask or first aid kit when out and about.

Yes and? Did any of those ever come up in conversation? G Or are you
just being argumentative?

The latter, of course! G

Now one never expects a traffic accident, or a fire in ones home. And
statistically..few ever happen.

Statistically speaking: the Fridley Fire Department responded to 2943
calls in 2008. There was 1 murder. I don't know how many traffic
accidents, but it's moot because use of seatbelts is required by law
in MN.

The fire department was responding to a host of problems besides fire.
Man down, medical, etc.

How many actual fires?

G

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:44:09 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 23, 8:26*am, Gunner Asch wrote:

If you consider your personal firearm to be simply a rabbits foot,
rather than a piece of ordnance to defend your life..all the power to
you.

I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death. *Ive seen more
than my share of each over the years..and understand thats its far far
closer than we might wish.


Gunner


If you want to assure that you can defend yourself, you really need to
carry something other than a pistol. A pistol is what you carry when
you think you are not going to need a gun. The army does not issue
pistols to troops to use in battles. The police do not issue pistols
to SWAT teams.

They dont? Odd..all the swat guys here carry pistols. And M4s

So you going to get an M4? And one should note..they dont carry them
concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. G


Don's approach is more realistic than yours. He is not expecting to
need a gun. Picking a pistol that he is more likely to carry, makes
sense. The odds that someone will decide to attack Don is extremely
small. The odds that they would attack Don knowing that he has some
sort of pistol is several orders of magnitude smaller.

Yet if the worst happens...he will be carrying a gun that really isnt
very effective. The Rubber Meets the Road.

If the car you have parked out front has all bald tires..thats fine
until you actually need to drive to the hospital at high speed.

Care to take the chance that car will never be driven?

G

I wont. Nor will I let my fire extinguishers hang on the wall with all
the propellent having leaked out. Someday I may need one. Id really
like it to work at that point.

It is sort of like the two guys walking in the woods and came across a
bear. One of them ran away. The other one stood his ground. Later
the one that stood his ground asked the other one why he ran. "Don't
you know you can't outrun a bear?" And the answer was " I don't have
to out run the bear. I just have to out run you."

Don does not have to be invincible. He just has to be a tougher
prospect for a mugging than the average person.

Dan
True indeed. He can shoot the bad guy and then have his throat cut and
the bad guy then crawls off to die.

If it works for you...shrug.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Let the Record show that Jim Wilkins on or about
Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:38:52 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Dec 23, 4:47*pm, pyotr filipivich wrote:

* * * * Or something. * Say, you recon I can claim Native American
Heritage, seeing as how I've ancestors who were here before it there
was a United States?

pyotr

A member of Bering's expedition?

Anglos Saxons. Although there could have been some Norsemen who
moved back.

I don't think Yakut or Evenk ancestry counts unless you can prove that
they turned around and went back.

I had a Cherokee great-great grandmother, if that means anything. When
I was young I met her 109-year-old daughter.

tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:56:33 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:18:10 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:28:16 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.

So any action you perceive as an attack *will* result in a shooting.
That strategy is not acceptable or applicable to me.


I noticed that you changed May into "will" for some reason.

Was there some reason for that?

"Shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW" sounds like a shooting to
me.

Indeed...you left out the part where you changed "....May turn into a
shooting.....And at that point....."

You have some curious blind spots unfortunately.

I see how I may have misconstrued what you said. Rather than blame the
"badge, camo or suit" and tone of what followed, I'll own reading you
incorrectly. Upon review, I think your intent was to say that if it
is necessary to shoot, be as sure as possible that the shots will stop
the assailant. I don't dispute that. It's gospel in the military and
law enforcement communities and in the literature. Shot placement
counts more than caliber but caliber and energy are relevant.

Your blind spot seems to be inability to understand or accept what
I've said in several ways about why I carry if and when I carry. One
more time: I am neither a cop nor a sojer. I think it is extremely
unlikely that I shall ever need to fire my carry piece aside from
periodic practice. Its value to me is as a deterrent to dispell a
punk/bully's perception of me as easy prey. In that context, a gun's
a gun regardless of ballistics. See gray hair = easy prey. See muzzle
of gun = oh****, maybe not, nevermind.

Perhaps you must defend yourself often against combat-proficient or
drug-crazed assailants intent on your demise. I don't. I've not been
attacked with a deadly weapon in 43 years.

If I'm attacked by a drug-crazed armed thug that can absorb 8 rounds
of .380 to COM and face (last two at powder-stipple-on-face range) and
still cut my head off before stopping, perhaps you'll help Mary
dispose of my tools, machinery and any guns she might be willing to
part with. Don't bother hunting the perp, leave that to Mary. I
picked my pony, took my ride and checked out with gunsmoke rather than
hospice in my nostrils and morphine drip in my terminal IV. Life is
far too short to be taken seriously.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote: "we're put on Earth to fart around."
Did you also have a problem with shooting to STOP the attacker if
necessary?

Not if it's really necessary.

So you dont think you are able to judge when that comes up?

I think I am, but won't know for sure until and unless it actually
happens. I've never had to make that decision as a civilian. Doubt
that I ever will.

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:41:57 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Was there some reason for that?

"Shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW" sounds like a shooting to
me.

Indeed...you left out the part where you changed "....May turn into a
shooting.....And at that point....."

You have some curious blind spots unfortunately.

I see how I may have misconstrued what you said. Rather than blame the
"badge, camo or suit" and tone of what followed, I'll own reading you
incorrectly. Upon review, I think your intent was to say that if it
is necessary to shoot, be as sure as possible that the shots will stop
the assailant. I don't dispute that. It's gospel in the military and
law enforcement communities and in the literature. Shot placement
counts more than caliber but caliber and energy are relevant.

Indeed. thats exactly what I was trying to say. I should mention that
Ive seen far far too many good shot placements that were ultimately
fatal..but didnt stop the perp until after he had done damage or killed
his opponent. Sadly but true.

Your blind spot seems to be inability to understand or accept what
I've said in several ways about why I carry if and when I carry. One
more time: I am neither a cop nor a sojer. I think it is extremely
unlikely that I shall ever need to fire my carry piece aside from
periodic practice. Its value to me is as a deterrent to dispell a
punk/bully's perception of me as easy prey. In that context, a gun's
a gun regardless of ballistics. See gray hair = easy prey. See muzzle
of gun = oh****, maybe not, nevermind.

Oh I understand exactly what you are trying to say. But its a world
view that I strongly disagree with. Ive spent significant time playing
games with and discussing the fact that the moment you HAVE to
shoot..having a weapon that is on the far side of marginal..really
doesnt help you a hell of a lot. Cops and sojers wear body armor. You
dont. Which means you have to be even more prepared to deliver a
stopping round than they do. And frankly...waving a 380 around may..may
frighten off some perps..but it wont frighten off all of them. I was a
cop for a number of years. Shrug.

I also have run in...humm.....ah.."rougher circles".... and places then
you have. Shrug..so in the past 30 yrs..Ive had to present a weapon 6
times against armed opponents...as a civilian. Because of my demeanor,
mental and physical attitude..Ive not had to fire a round (that Im
willing to discuss)...but each time..if Id not done what Id done..I or
those I was with, would have been at the least, robbed and harmed, if
not killed.

Observers have shakenly told me that I become someone else..shrug..with
facial and verbal changes that frankly..scared the **** out of them,
along with the bad guys. Broke up with a lady after we were victims of
an attempted robbery by 3 gents..and I responded to their advances. She
was more afraid of the change she saw at the moment of
confrontation..than she was of the bad guys. She of course was a
Leftwinger..extraordinary in bed..but...inexperienced in life on the
street. Nice lady..but a bit...naive.... Shrug. She was later gang
raped and she changed...I taught her to shoot..and she later killed one
of the rapists who had decided to keep her on "the string of fear". A
very good shooting too..and one she is satisfied with. She finally
married a deputy..been married to him for at least 15 yrs..range
master...chuckle...

Perhaps you must defend yourself often against combat-proficient or
drug-crazed assailants intent on your demise. I don't. I've not been
attacked with a deadly weapon in 43 years.

Which means nothing. When the time comes...come back on Usenet and tell
me all about it. With luck..it will never come. But keep in mind..that
it MAY come..and having a marginal firearm is what you will be
defending yourself with. No more nor no less than what a cop or soldier
will ultimately face at that "moment of truth"..when all the cards are
on the table, there is no "out"..and its you versus the bad guy. The
winner walking away..or getting a ride in an ambulance..the loser gets a
chalk outline.

Which is the way most actual knife fights end..the winner gets a fast
and hurried ride in an ambulance..the loser gets the chalk outline.

Been there, done that. Shrug

Just keep in mind..that if the worst happens...do you want to defend
your life or the life of another...with something that will not stop a
determined attacker, until you are crippled or dead?

Shrug...life saving decisions are sometimes hard..sometimes easy.

Make em wisely.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Dec 24, 6:15*am, Gunner Asch wrote:


So you going to get an M4? *And one should note..they dont carry them
concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. G

Gunner


The M4 with full jacketed bullets is not even an adequate deer rifle.

Dan

pyotr filipivich wrote:

I got in touch with my feminine side. She slapped me, and got an
restraining order.


Can you blame her?


--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

Gunner Asch wrote:

Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
bigots!!

Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the ****ter..Ill
apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.


You could always claim to be a minority owned business.


--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:01:03 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 24, 6:15*am, Gunner Asch wrote:


So you going to get an M4? *And one should note..they dont carry them
concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. G

Gunner


The M4 with full jacketed bullets is not even an adequate deer rifle.

Dan
On full auto..you can simply weight a deer down with rounds so it
staggers off and ultimately dies of blood loss.

But you are absolutely correct.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 11:42:15 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
bigots!!

Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the ****ter..Ill
apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.


You could always claim to be a minority owned business.


oooooh! I like that! After all..Im 12% native American...so by Obama
Standards...Im an Indian.

Thanks!!!!

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:15:13 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:01:03 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 24, 6:15*am, Gunner Asch wrote:


So you going to get an M4? *And one should note..they dont carry them
concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. G

Gunner


The M4 with full jacketed bullets is not even an adequate deer rifle.

Dan
On full auto..you can simply weight a deer down with rounds so it
staggers off and ultimately dies of blood loss.

Isn't that what ultimately killed Dick Tracy? Or was it lead
posioning from all the bullets left in him after all those shootouts.
"It's just a flesh wound."

One ore reason to pack something with "DRT" capability - you don't
want them dieing of lead posioning.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 11:42:15 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
bigots!!

Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the ****ter..Ill
apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.


You could always claim to be a minority owned business.

oooooh! I like that! After all..Im 12% native American...so by Obama
Standards...Im an Indian.

Thanks!!!!


By his standards you should qualify for some sweet, overpriced
government contacts, too.


--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!