On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:01:03 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus25756 quickly quoth:

OK... Good points on the blade etc. I just got myself a buck knife
instead, that seems to actually be nicely made and has a more
practical shape and dimensions.

Let's pray that if you bought an actual Buck brand knife, it was a
very old one. From what I've seen and heard, the new ones aren't even
as good as the 10-for-a-dollar knives from China.

I think Searz sells 'em.

--
Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is a nobler art of
leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination
of nonessentials. -- Lin Yutang

On 2008-06-09, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:01:03 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus25756 quickly quoth:

OK... Good points on the blade etc. I just got myself a buck knife
instead, that seems to actually be nicely made and has a more
practical shape and dimensions.

Let's pray that if you bought an actual Buck brand knife, it was a
very old one. From what I've seen and heard, the new ones aren't even
as good as the 10-for-a-dollar knives from China.

I think Searz sells 'em.


Unfortunately, your payers were not granted at the time of purchase,
this is a new Buck brand made in the US, not an old one. Seems to be
stainless. I think that it will work for me. I am not a very demanding
user. I will try to sharpen it as well as I can with that diamond
plated flat bar.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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On Jun 9, 12:36*pm, Ignoramus25756 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25756.invalid wrote:

That's what my AK bayonet does, which is very nifty. Also, this
implies a certain hardness of the steel involved (hard enough to cut
steel wire).

They are also very well insulated in case the wire fence is
electrified.

On Jun 9, 12:43*pm, Ignoramus25756 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25756.invalid wrote:

I loved both the book as well as the movie, which I thought was
surprisingly historically accurate.

Too bad they had to leave so much out. I really wanted to see sniper
Tania Chernova crawl in from the river through a sewer pipe and then,
still stinking, get a meal in a German mess hall.

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:57:16 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


http://www.sunblest.net/gun/img/Mann95bayo1.jpg

this matches my bayonet perfectly!!!!

Ayup, that's her, alright. Now about the closeup of the sheath...

not to mention the frog......
,g

Uh, yeah. That, too. g Make that 2 things I've learned already
today. Hmm, _these_ guys call 'em sheaths:
http://www.bladesnewold.com/MilitaryBayonets.html

Lets make that 3 things....the frog...is the bit of leather than holds
the container..the sheath..to ones person. Variations on frogs can
run into dozens of different types, materials, colors and so forth.

often times, military sub organizations had a need for something
different from the herd for reasons both actual and ego.

for example...a marine group based on a ship, would have a difficult
time with a full sized 17" bayonet aboard ship, so they were issued
either cut down ones, or something utterly different

and so forth. accouterments and their reasons (or lack of reason)
can be fascinating study.

want a simple start...check out a book on American civlil war
accouterments....roflmao....


at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

What's this ****, mon? Quoting troll limericks now, are we? It's bad
enough that you continually repost their crap by replying to them,
giving them reason to come back. sigh


i thought it was a fascinating bit of utter insanity the evil flower
uttered, and capturing it for posterity and putting it on display for
a short time would be interesting.. it will wear out its
entertainment value before long, then ill switch to something else.

Gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 06:02:16 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 23:57:06 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:

And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?


the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.


You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

Damn, Gunner, you're 3 for 3 today.

while im a dauber as a welder, and a blacksmith as a
machinist..military and geopolitical history are a long term interest
of mine. shrug


The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

That was an EXCELLENT movie! (Just added to my Netflix queue.)

one has to admire the russian peoples, if one knows their history.
And one has to despise the ideology that enslaved them for many
hundreds of years..and then things went down hill when communism took
them under its wing......
at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:38:49 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Jun 9, 9:02*am, Larry Jaques wrote:
The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

That was an EXCELLENT movie! (Just added to my Netflix queue.)

BTW, the book is a very detailed recontruction of actual events, not a
novel.


indeed.


Ratten Krieg

The war of the rats...the seige of stalingrad


at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:56:42 -0500, Ignoramus25756
wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:01:03 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus25756 quickly quoth:

OK... Good points on the blade etc. I just got myself a buck knife
instead, that seems to actually be nicely made and has a more
practical shape and dimensions.

Let's pray that if you bought an actual Buck brand knife, it was a
very old one. From what I've seen and heard, the new ones aren't even
as good as the 10-for-a-dollar knives from China.

I think Searz sells 'em.


Unfortunately, your payers were not granted at the time of purchase,
this is a new Buck brand made in the US, not an old one. Seems to be
stainless. I think that it will work for me. I am not a very demanding
user. I will try to sharpen it as well as I can with that diamond
plated flat bar.


hit pawn shops for both early bucks and gerbers.

Gunner..who uses ceramic "crock sticks" for most of his sharpening
chores

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:


On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:


And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?

Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?

You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.

The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!

A.

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:


On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:


And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?

Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?

You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.

The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!

The blocking detachments (zagradotryad) existed, but in relatively
small numbers, I believe that it was 3 batallions per front (front is
an army group). So while it would not be true to say that all soldiers
has to fight with blocking detachments behind their backs, they
existed.

The 80% of German personnel killed on the Eastern front, is correct.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Jun 9, 2:57 am, Gunner Asch wrote:

...
The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.
Gunner

"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?

Found some information on blocking detachments.

From Order #227, it was 3-5 detachments per army, 200 personnel in
each detachment. So it was 600-1,000 personnel nominal per nominal
about 100,000 of an army.

i

Ignoramus25756 wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:


On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:



Jim Wilkins wrote:



On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:



And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?


Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?


You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.


The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!


The blocking detachments (zagradotryad) existed, but in relatively
small numbers, I believe that it was 3 batallions per front (front is
an army group). So while it would not be true to say that all soldiers
has to fight with blocking detachments behind their backs, they
existed.

So I know and you do - not the Gunner. Blocking detachments
existed in all armies for hundred years and are nothing new.
In Gunner(s) mind those terrible Zagranotryads were tha main
instrument used by Soviets to win the war.

The 80% of German personnel killed on the Eastern front, is correct.

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:
Ignoramus25756 wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:


On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:



Jim Wilkins wrote:



On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:



And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?


Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?


You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.


The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!


The blocking detachments (zagradotryad) existed, but in relatively
small numbers, I believe that it was 3 batallions per front (front is
an army group). So while it would not be true to say that all soldiers
has to fight with blocking detachments behind their backs, they
existed.

So I know and you do - not the Gunner. Blocking detachments
existed in all armies for hundred years and are nothing new.
In Gunner(s) mind those terrible Zagranotryads were tha main
instrument used by Soviets to win the war.

Germans also used blocking detachments.


The 80% of German personnel killed on the Eastern front, is correct.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Trevor Jones wrote:

They work good for their intended purpose, though, which is to provide
a last ditch pokey thing on the end of a shooty thing! :-)

I wonder how well a 9# battle rifle and a bayonet does piercing flexible body armor?

Wes

Zayonc wrote:

"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:
Zayonc wrote:

"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.


I believe that they phased out of Soviet army before WWII and replaced
with TT pistols. I may be mistaken, however.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Gunner Asch wrote:

You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.


Thanks for explaining my bayonet comment


Wes

Ignoramus25756 wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:

Zayonc wrote:


"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.



I believe that they phased out of Soviet army before WWII and replaced
with TT pistols. I may be mistaken, however.

You are absolutely correct - Nagan was never the service weapon
of Soviet Army - it was phased out long time ago, and this was
wrong thing to do.

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:54:05 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

That was an EXCELLENT movie! (Just added to my Netflix queue.)

one has to admire the russian peoples, if one knows their history.
And one has to despise the ideology that enslaved them for many
hundreds of years..and then things went down hill when communism took
them under its wing......

It has been said, that Democracy will bring wonderful things for
the Russian people. They just need a strong leader to impose it.

Unfortunately for the Russians, experience has taught them not to
get their hopes up. It's almost genetic by now. (In a similar vein, a
friend wrote of getting their house built in Greece a few years ago.
With over two thousand years of dealing with tax laws, tax avoidance
was part and parcel of the planning. Real short form, if you get the
county to sign off on the frame of the building, then that is the
"final" price of the house, and taxes are based on that. Then you
hire someone to finish the work... But they've changed the laws,
again, and now everybody is looking for the edge to get around it,)

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

Zayonc wrote:

You are absolutely correct - Nagan was never the service weapon
of Soviet Army - it was phased out long time ago, and this was
wrong thing to do.

Gee, my arsenal refinished one marked 1930, 1941, 1943.... seems to make me think they
were considered useful.



This revolver was designed in Belgium by Nagant brothers (Emile and Leon) in the late
1880s - early 1890s, and was adopted by numerous countries, including Sweden and Poland,
but the major user and manufacturer was undoubtfully Russia (and later Soviet Union).
Russian government adopted Nagant revolver in 1895, and local production began in 1898
(first shipments were from Belgium). It was a standard russian sidearm until 1930, when
M1895 Nagant was declared obsolete, but it was widely used and manufactured during World
War 2, and manufacture was finally ceased circa 1950.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg102-e.htm

Any functional gun beats no gun.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:
Zayonc wrote:

You are absolutely correct - Nagan was never the service weapon
of Soviet Army - it was phased out long time ago, and this was
wrong thing to do.

Gee, my arsenal refinished one marked 1930, 1941, 1943.... seems to make me think they
were considered useful.

They were but not in the military.


This revolver was designed in Belgium by Nagant brothers (Emile and Leon) in the late
1880s - early 1890s, and was adopted by numerous countries, including Sweden and Poland,
but the major user and manufacturer was undoubtfully Russia (and later Soviet Union).
Russian government adopted Nagant revolver in 1895, and local production began in 1898
(first shipments were from Belgium). It was a standard russian sidearm until 1930, when
M1895 Nagant was declared obsolete, but it was widely used and manufactured during World
War 2, and manufacture was finally ceased circa 1950.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg102-e.htm

Any functional gun beats no gun.

And a lousy gun that you know well, beats one that you don't.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:08:43 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:54:05 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

That was an EXCELLENT movie! (Just added to my Netflix queue.)

one has to admire the russian peoples, if one knows their history.
And one has to despise the ideology that enslaved them for many
hundreds of years..and then things went down hill when communism took
them under its wing......

It has been said, that Democracy will bring wonderful things for
the Russian people. They just need a strong leader to impose it.


lol!!

Unfortunately for the Russians, experience has taught them not to
get their hopes up. It's almost genetic by now. (In a similar vein, a
friend wrote of getting their house built in Greece a few years ago.
With over two thousand years of dealing with tax laws, tax avoidance
was part and parcel of the planning. Real short form, if you get the
county to sign off on the frame of the building, then that is the
"final" price of the house, and taxes are based on that. Then you
hire someone to finish the work... But they've changed the laws,
again, and now everybody is looking for the edge to get around it,)

tschus
pyotr


The russian experience...indeed. I know a number of emigris from the
old soviet union...Latvia, the Ukraine, Georgia....

ive hung out in russian coffee houses, listened to the old music....

It will take generations of outbreeding to get rid of the paranoia,
the deep dispair and the cynisism from their gene pool.

shrug...


Gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:09:50 -0700, Zayonc wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:


On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:


And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?

blink blink....I was right..you are a buffoon.

Im a voracious student of life, and military and geopolitical history.
Ive talked to many russians , most whom were military in both the
Great War, and many all the way through Afghanistan. One of my
buddies...a master machinist living in Burbank, was Spetnaz..and in
Afghanistan. Many of my friends are ex-military..from many armies
across the planet. Some served in more than one...shrug.

They talk, I listen, I seperate the bull**** from the facts, and ask
intelligent questions. Btw..I was on walkabout, using up some
accumulated leave time, using my military ID and some other ID to
hitch rides and air travel, while recovering from wounds suffered
during my 2nd combat tour in RVN. I also did a very short stint as a
"security guard" in Africa, on a "farm". I didnt approve of
apartheid, and the disgust was more than my love of killing
Communists, so I bailed out.

Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?

stalin would have purged Zhukov for playing fast and loose with the
brief truce between America and the USSR, so Gavin was as safe as
houses. Sentiment at the time in the US military was to nuke Moscow
and to hell with the consequences before the Communist threat grew too
great. Truman wasnt all that adverse to the idea either. If we had
had more bombs coming out of Tennesee...we may well have done exactly
that.

Potsdam was the last time we all were touchy feely group hugs with the
ussr......and then it was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my
friend"

Once Herr schicklegrubber took the big dirt nap...all bets were off.

We enjoyed WW3 for the next 50 odd yrs, which ended in 1991

You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.

Blink blink....the reason the soviets killed as many germans as they
did...was the fact they were engaged in Total War with the germans,
black flag, few prisoners on either side were taken. WIth so many
germans that deep inside of mother russia...and so few ever came out
of holy mother russia.....

Operation Barbarosa started in 1941. And ended with the stalingrad
debacle. The nazis should have paid attention to napoleons history
with the russians....and they should never have tried exterminating
the Untermenschen....Russians, men woman and children..for which they
lost their wide spread support among a huge number of russians who
supported the germans themselves in their war against stalin.

yob...many areas of western russia were german, since hundreds of t
housands moved to russia do to cathrins proclamation in 1763

The Smolensk Manifesto alone brought about a half million russian
voluntereers on the Germans side when they attacked
Stalingrad...Russians who hated stalin and the communists and figured
the germans were the best vehicle to get rid of stalin.

the Germans of course...****ed it all away. And the rest is bloody
history and mass graves fertilizing holy mother russia..the result of
black flag war on both sides.

why do you think so many germans were desperate to be captured by the
Allies rather than the russians?

The german army, the ss and the luftwaffe bled itself white in Russia,
the baltics....the Eaastern front. though to be fair..the weather
and starvation, and disease killed as many germans as did russian
soldiers.

shrug...

The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!

A.


careful Comrade...your buffoonery is approaching mass stupidity

yob tvoyu mat, tovarich.


gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:12:05 -0500, Ignoramus25756
wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:


On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:


And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?

Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?

You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.

The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!

The blocking detachments (zagradotryad) existed, but in relatively
small numbers, I believe that it was 3 batallions per front (front is
an army group). So while it would not be true to say that all soldiers
has to fight with blocking detachments behind their backs, they
existed.

The 80% of German personnel killed on the Eastern front, is correct.


and to be accurate..they were nkvd as the kgb wasnt formed until 1954

But chekists they were indeed.


Gunn er



at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:24:53 -0700, Zayonc wrote:

Ignoramus25756 wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:


On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:



Jim Wilkins wrote:



On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:



And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?


Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?


You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.


The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!


The blocking detachments (zagradotryad) existed, but in relatively
small numbers, I believe that it was 3 batallions per front (front is
an army group). So while it would not be true to say that all soldiers
has to fight with blocking detachments behind their backs, they
existed.

So I know and you do - not the Gunner. Blocking detachments
existed in all armies for hundred years and are nothing new.
In Gunner(s) mind those terrible Zagranotryads were tha main
instrument used by Soviets to win the war.


pity.....you went from buffoon, to utter buffoon, to ****ing stupid on
one post.

when you set your mind to it...you can accomplish many great things,
no?

whats the matter Comrade..still missing the soviet?

Gunner




The 80% of German personnel killed on the Eastern front, is correct.

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:53:59 -0500, Ignoramus25756
wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:
Ignoramus25756 wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Zayonc wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:


On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700, Zayonc wrote:



Jim Wilkins wrote:



On Jun 8, 2:12 am, Wes wrote:



And if it says the KGB troops are behind you, keep going forward, it is soviet.


General James Gavin was the US commander in Berlin right after the
war, and Marshall Zhukov was the Soviet commander. They met often and
became friendly, but Gavin reported that he was the only person who
could be around Zhukov without fearing for his life.

So what was the real issue? Was Zhukov so Terrible, or
people around to easy to be scared or may be Gavin was
megalomaniac?

the russian military had little regard for individual soldiers lives.
one could be executed, purged etc for simply being in view when a
superior woke up with a hangover. Unless you had what is called a
"rabbi' in western terms...or were of equivelent rank or otherwise
protected in some fashion...there was no safety for you.

Gunner, looks like your life was full bodied! Possible after
you walked through Concentration Camps in 70-es you also served
in russian (by the way - why not Soviet?) military, I suppose
under some pretended name. Otherwise - from where did you get so
much knowledge about so obscure matters?


Gavin was protected because he was both an equal and a representative
of an ally govenment.

You should understand that nobody was protected when dealing
with such evil Communists! Gavin survived just be accident,
possible Zhukov did not have hangovers mornings Gavin visited?


You are aware of why KGB troops trailed behind regular russian troops
are you not? They usually were a heavy machine gun organization and
their job was to shoot any Russian soldier or soldier(s) who didnt
give their all in a charge, or even hesitated, let along started to
fall back.

For this one I could only add that KGB troops were very bad
marksmen! Missed a lot and coz they were firing to the Germans
direction this was the actual reason why Soviet Army killed 80%
of all German troops in WWII.


The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.

Ok, thanks, now I see! This is the source of your knowledge!
Very respectable source indeed!


The blocking detachments (zagradotryad) existed, but in relatively
small numbers, I believe that it was 3 batallions per front (front is
an army group). So while it would not be true to say that all soldiers
has to fight with blocking detachments behind their backs, they
existed.

So I know and you do - not the Gunner. Blocking detachments
existed in all armies for hundred years and are nothing new.
In Gunner(s) mind those terrible Zagranotryads were tha main
instrument used by Soviets to win the war.

Germans also used blocking detachments.

true indeed. ss and the rare gru for the most part...however they
were nearly always used on troops other than Germans...the germans had
many non german allies fighting along side of them...many of them
victims of the soviets

cossacks, turks, ukrainians, albainians. romanians, bulgarians, etc
etc

they were used extensively during the Battle of Kursk and during the
final retreat to Berlin..though then it was mostly ss troops used.


The 80% of German personnel killed on the Eastern front, is correct.

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:13:00 -0700, Zayonc wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Jun 9, 2:57 am, Gunner Asch wrote:

...
The movie Enemy at the Gates showed this rather well.
Gunner

"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


ooops...you just passed from stupid to utter embicile

well after ww2, the nagant revolver was the standard sidearm of the
russian military..and the political officers.

Its still used today by some russian police forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895


gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:41:11 -0500, Ignoramus25756
wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:
Zayonc wrote:

"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.


I believe that they phased out of Soviet army before WWII and replaced
with TT pistols. I may be mistaken, however.


it wasnt phased out from regular army use until 1950 or later

interesting revolver...the sole type of revolver that a silence can be
affixed to it.

gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:52:56 -0700, Zayonc wrote:

Ignoramus25756 wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:

Zayonc wrote:


"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.



I believe that they phased out of Soviet army before WWII and replaced
with TT pistols. I may be mistaken, however.

You are absolutely correct - Nagan was never the service weapon
of Soviet Army - it was phased out long time ago, and this was
wrong thing to do.


passed to a higher plane of stupid...fascinating!

you guys sure can do things properly!

gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:28:49 -0400, Wes wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

They work good for their intended purpose, though, which is to provide
a last ditch pokey thing on the end of a shooty thing! :-)

I wonder how well a 9# battle rifle and a bayonet does piercing flexible body armor?

Wes


whats a #9?


Gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

Wes wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:


They work good for their intended purpose, though, which is to provide
a last ditch pokey thing on the end of a shooty thing! :-)


I wonder how well a 9# battle rifle and a bayonet does piercing flexible body armor?

Wes

Pretty well.

Needs to have the hard plates in the armor for it to have a decent
stop on pointy objects.

Saw a video many years back. DeSantis, IIRC. Room full of cops. Guy
laid their entire soft armor collection over a block of putty, all the
while, giving the patter about each level of protection.

Then he say's "If you were wearing ALL of these, you'd be pretty much
invincible if you walked into an alley, right?"

While the cops in the front row are all nodding their heads, the guy
pulled a knife out from behind his back, and thunked it through the
whole stack.

Some pretty wide eyes in the front coupla rows, in the video!

Pointed bullets and pointed or cutting objects will either part or cut
the aramid materials of the soft armor.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:52:56 -0700, Zayonc wrote:


Ignoramus25756 wrote:


On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:


Zayonc wrote:



"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.



I believe that they phased out of Soviet army before WWII and replaced
with TT pistols. I may be mistaken, however.

You are absolutely correct - Nagan was never the service weapon
of Soviet Army - it was phased out long time ago, and this was
wrong thing to do.



passed to a higher plane of stupid...fascinating!

I think this is mostly all you could say? Your "metal" content
is significantly higher then in this areas. Military man is
always military man. This is the diagnose - not compliment.

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:39:25 -0700, Zayonc wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:52:56 -0700, Zayonc wrote:


Ignoramus25756 wrote:


On 2008-06-09, Wes wrote:


Zayonc wrote:



"When the last bullet in the revolver thudded into a man's brain, the
commander shoved the pistol back in its holster and walked away."

This one is nice! No revolvers in Soviet Army. May be this
one was the one Iggy found the bayonete for?


Gee, never heard about the Nagant 1895 Gas Seal Revolver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

I've got one or three or so of them.



I believe that they phased out of Soviet army before WWII and replaced
with TT pistols. I may be mistaken, however.

You are absolutely correct - Nagan was never the service weapon
of Soviet Army - it was phased out long time ago, and this was
wrong thing to do.



passed to a higher plane of stupid...fascinating!

I think this is mostly all you could say? Your "metal" content
is significantly higher then in this areas. Military man is
always military man. This is the diagnose - not compliment.


And in your case..the diagnosis is 'stupid is as stupid does"

you have been consistantly and blatantly utterly wrong in every aspect
you have posted on in this thread.

one hopes you are a better machinist than a miltary historian let
alone any sort of authority on weapons.




Gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:09:13 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:

Wes wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:


They work good for their intended purpose, though, which is to provide
a last ditch pokey thing on the end of a shooty thing! :-)


I wonder how well a 9# battle rifle and a bayonet does piercing flexible body armor?

Wes

Pretty well.

Needs to have the hard plates in the armor for it to have a decent
stop on pointy objects.

Saw a video many years back. DeSantis, IIRC. Room full of cops. Guy
laid their entire soft armor collection over a block of putty, all the
while, giving the patter about each level of protection.

Then he say's "If you were wearing ALL of these, you'd be pretty much
invincible if you walked into an alley, right?"

While the cops in the front row are all nodding their heads, the guy
pulled a knife out from behind his back, and thunked it through the
whole stack.

Some pretty wide eyes in the front coupla rows, in the video!

Pointed bullets and pointed or cutting objects will either part or cut
the aramid materials of the soft armor.

Cheers
Trevor Jones


many years ago when I was playing deputy sherriff...the Second Chance
sales drone put up a panel of kevlar and had everyone take a shot at
it with whatever they happened to be carrying off duty. An astute
fellow mentioned that even a mudflap would deflect a bullet when hung
by the top, so they fastened it to a 6x6 post and had at it
again..beating the hell out of the post...blunt force trauma at its
best.

then i went out to the truck and brought in my bow and a couple arrows
with broadheads and proceeded to nail a double layer of panels to the
post, and finished it off with a common icepick.

The sales droid got a bit red faced at that point.....shrug

never promise what you cant deliver when it comes to life safety gear.

somone may survive and beat you to death with it.

Many of the early vests would be penetrated through and through by a
simple .22 pistol, even though they would stop a .45

30 mauser pistol rounds go through most vests, even today unless they
have chicken plates in it..a round nearly 100 yrs old.


Gunner

at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Jun 9, 5:28*pm, Wes wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:
*They work good for their intended purpose, though, which is to provide
a last ditch pokey thing on the end of a shooty thing! :-)

I wonder how well a 9# battle rifle and a bayonet does piercing flexible body armor?

Wes

You mean 9 pound rifle, right?

I don't have Gunner's experience but I understood body armor to be
protection from blast fragments. The answer to the bayonet is your own
weapon.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:28:07 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Jun 9, 5:28*pm, Wes wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:
*They work good for their intended purpose, though, which is to provide
a last ditch pokey thing on the end of a shooty thing! :-)

I wonder how well a 9# battle rifle and a bayonet does piercing flexible body armor?

Wes

You mean 9 pound rifle, right?

I don't have Gunner's experience but I understood body armor to be
protection from blast fragments. The answer to the bayonet is your own
weapon.


military body armor indeed used to be primarily for shrapnel
protection, but its gotten so good, thats its got projectile ratings

Civilian body armor of course is primarily projectile protection.

the best protection from a bayonet is a tot artillery barrage on the
oncoming enemy troops.

or massed machine guns in enfilade.


at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar"
* * * * * * *mariposa rand mair theal

On Jun 10, 1:28*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

military body armor indeed used to be primarily for shrapnel
protection, but its gotten so good, thats its got projectile ratings

I was on an anti-terrorist squad (a joke!) in Germany and wore one of
the nylon ballistic vests with waterproof inner covers. It was
comfortable when we were inactive in 40F weather. I can't imagine
wearing one on patrol at 40C.

Gunner Asch wrote:

many years ago when I was playing deputy sherriff...the Second Chance
sales drone put up a panel of kevlar and had everyone take a shot at

Second Chance, never made it to one of their shoots doing their heyday. Sadly, that jap
fiber they used in some body armour ruined them financially.

Second Chance is within a gallon or to of gas from me.

Wes

Gunner Asch wrote:

whats a #9?

I didn't weigh my Garand. Of course with the lead bars in the cleaning tools cavity it is
likely a bit heavier.

Wes