Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?
I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH?


I shot through railroad tie plates (mild steel) with 7.62 mm Mosin
Nagant, using 50 year old ammo. They are, what, 1/2" thick?


Have you seen what the Army and Air Force use for armor piercing
ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds for the A-10? These things weigh a
whole POUND each, and are SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!)
The armor they are trying to pierce is about that thick, as far as I
know. A tank couldn't possibly have steel armor too much more than
an inch thick, or it would be too heavy to move.


Frontal armor on a tank can be much thicker than one inch, such as 4
inches or more. Plus, tank armor is stronger than mild steel, due to
metallurgy, use of composite materials etc. And I was asking about 1
inch of mere mild steel.

The old Nam era M133 armoured personnel carrier
had 1.25" of armour in places. The new M1A1
Abrams has an incredible 800mm or 31" of of
armour *equivilent* on the turret.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?
I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon


LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

And there are dead spaces between some of the layers to help break up
the flame front jet from shaped charges.

Ive got a set of standard 3/4" HRS plates that I hang from chains for
gongs and I have to weld them up or replace them every couple years.
Standard 308 FMJ will penetrate fully a half inch at 400 yrds and a
smidge more at 500 yrds. Can you tell me why it penetrates less at
closer ranges? G

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)


bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?
I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are

....with 3' of explosive-filled shell behind them.


SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Much of the newest armor is a lighter-weight _ceramic_!


--------------------------------------
PESSIMIST: An optimist with experience
--------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Web Database Development

Gunner

I would suspect that the velocity at a short distance is higher that at long
range and that is the cause of better penetration at longer ranges.

Energy transfer verse velocity, may be more efficient at lower velocity.

Hugh
Not a ballistician.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?
I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon


LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

And there are dead spaces between some of the layers to help break up
the flame front jet from shaped charges.

Ive got a set of standard 3/4" HRS plates that I hang from chains for
gongs and I have to weld them up or replace them every couple years.
Standard 308 FMJ will penetrate fully a half inch at 400 yrds and a
smidge more at 500 yrds. Can you tell me why it penetrates less at
closer ranges? G

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:59:13 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)

I could double check, but it is my recollection that possessing AP
bullets is not illegal, at least in the US in general. High power
rifles, such as 7mm Rem Mag, give their bullets so much energy that
pretty much any bullets from these rifles can go through pretty much
all "bulletproof" vests. A vest that could stop a bullet of this
nature would not be practical to carry.

That's true for almost rifles of roughly that size - .30-06, .308, 7mm
mag, and god-only-knows how many others. Basically anything that size is
going to fit in the category "armor piercing" when loaded with plain old
off-the-shelf deer bullets.

When I asked a cop I know (who, at the time, was bragging about his
spiffy new state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line vest - "This sucker will
stop damn near anything!") "So, if it's so great and protects so well,
what happens if I point my .30-06 at you and pull the trigger?", he
flinched a bit, then in a very matter-of-fact tone replied "Well, I'm
probably gonna drop like a steer in a slaughterhouse, then quietly lay
there and bleed to death - assuming I'm not already dead before I hit
the ground."

Oddly enough, I haven't heard him say diddly-squat about his
ever-so-strong vest since...

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:39:25 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:59:13 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)

I could double check, but it is my recollection that possessing AP
bullets is not illegal, at least in the US in general. High power
rifles, such as 7mm Rem Mag, give their bullets so much energy that
pretty much any bullets from these rifles can go through pretty much
all "bulletproof" vests. A vest that could stop a bullet of this
nature would not be practical to carry.

That's true for almost rifles of roughly that size - .30-06, .308, 7mm
mag, and god-only-knows how many others. Basically anything that size is
going to fit in the category "armor piercing" when loaded with plain old
off-the-shelf deer bullets.

When I asked a cop I know (who, at the time, was bragging about his
spiffy new state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line vest - "This sucker will
stop damn near anything!") "So, if it's so great and protects so well,
what happens if I point my .30-06 at you and pull the trigger?", he
flinched a bit, then in a very matter-of-fact tone replied "Well, I'm
probably gonna drop like a steer in a slaughterhouse, then quietly lay
there and bleed to death - assuming I'm not already dead before I hit
the ground."

Oddly enough, I haven't heard him say diddly-squat about his
ever-so-strong vest since...


Even if his vest stopped the bullet, it still would transfer almost
100% of the bullet's momentum on him. That would amount to being hit
with a high speed paddle. The momentum would be the same as the
rifle's recoil (which is painful), only transferring more energy
because of higher speed of the affected area of the vest, compared to
the speed of rifle moving backwards.

IOW, the discussion that I started is not of practical nature.

Oh, that's without question. The point I am/was making is that just
about any of the "big deer rifles" (Pretty much anything that's
reasonably comparable to a .30-06, .308, .300 savage, or similar) is, in
and of itself, an "armor piercing" weapon unless you're shooting nothing
but plain, soft lead bullets through it. There's just *SO MUCH* "oomph"
involved, behind such a (comparatively) small cross-section, that it can
hardly help punching through insert almost any material of your choice
like tissue-paper.

The "scary" part is that something like an off-the-shelf .30-06 isn't
even really all that "high powered" a load by the standards that today's
magnum and ultra-magnum loads use.

(That's *NOT* saying that a .30-06 isn't "high powered enough"... How
could anyone sane make that claim when it's generally considered to be
"plenty of rifle" for practically anything that walks, flies, crawls, or
slithers on the north American continent? Never mind the crazy folks
who have used it for taking African "big game", up to and including
rhinos and elephants...)

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon



LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

3006 ammunition is 7.62 mm calibre, isn't it? I don't know much about
guns, but I do recall that the armour used on the famous "Pig" trucks in
Northern Ireland was a little under an inch thick, and this was regarded
as being adequate protection against the armour piercing 7.62 mm rounds
available to the IRA in the 1970s. Now it was definitely welded steel
armour, but it may not have been mild steel, and I'm not sure of the
range at which it offered protection, but the British Army found that it
did the job.

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

Chobham armour. I believe it was first used on the British Challenger I
tank, and it's probably a good foot thick. Tanks just have huge engines
and wide tracks to cope with the weight.

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

The rifle because it has the longer barrel, so the bullet has more time
to accelerate, is that right?

Iggy might also like to check out this link. Look at the Steyr round
next to the regular 7.62 mm. That is one big AP round:

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm

Chris

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:59:13 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di
wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this,
for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)

I could double check, but it is my recollection that possessing AP
bullets is not illegal, at least in the US in general. High power
rifles, such as 7mm Rem Mag, give their bullets so much energy that
pretty much any bullets from these rifles can go through pretty much
all "bulletproof" vests. A vest that could stop a bullet of this
nature would not be practical to carry.

That's true for almost rifles of roughly that size - .30-06, .308, 7mm
mag, and god-only-knows how many others. Basically anything that size is
going to fit in the category "armor piercing" when loaded with plain old
off-the-shelf deer bullets.

When I asked a cop I know (who, at the time, was bragging about his
spiffy new state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line vest - "This sucker will
stop damn near anything!") "So, if it's so great and protects so well,
what happens if I point my .30-06 at you and pull the trigger?", he
flinched a bit, then in a very matter-of-fact tone replied "Well, I'm
probably gonna drop like a steer in a slaughterhouse, then quietly lay
there and bleed to death - assuming I'm not already dead before I hit
the ground."

Oddly enough, I haven't heard him say diddly-squat about his
ever-so-strong vest since...

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my
whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text
"PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without
my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more
info

I have read that almost any shotgun load, even with small shot, will
penetrate the common police dept. vest at close range when the shot is still
in a ball.

Randy

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:39:25 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:59:13 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)

I could double check, but it is my recollection that possessing AP
bullets is not illegal, at least in the US in general. High power
rifles, such as 7mm Rem Mag, give their bullets so much energy that
pretty much any bullets from these rifles can go through pretty much
all "bulletproof" vests. A vest that could stop a bullet of this
nature would not be practical to carry.

That's true for almost rifles of roughly that size - .30-06, .308, 7mm
mag, and god-only-knows how many others. Basically anything that size is
going to fit in the category "armor piercing" when loaded with plain old
off-the-shelf deer bullets.

When I asked a cop I know (who, at the time, was bragging about his
spiffy new state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line vest - "This sucker will
stop damn near anything!") "So, if it's so great and protects so well,
what happens if I point my .30-06 at you and pull the trigger?", he
flinched a bit, then in a very matter-of-fact tone replied "Well, I'm
probably gonna drop like a steer in a slaughterhouse, then quietly lay
there and bleed to death - assuming I'm not already dead before I hit
the ground."

Oddly enough, I haven't heard him say diddly-squat about his
ever-so-strong vest since...

Chuckle...the ancient .30 Mauser pistol cartridge, often found in the
old broomhandled Mauser and other "obsolete" handguns, will generally
sail right through a Level II vest like it was lace. Often doesnt make
it completly through the other side of the vest..but the wearer is not
likely to be terribly concerned one way or another.

Im aware of two cases also of deaths by blunt force trauma, one case
the wearer was shot at nearly point blank range by a 12ga shotgun
delivering a slug. It busted the sternum, blew out the aorota and
pretty much tenderized the heart. Think bag of goo. The other was an
officre who was tagged with a 475gr round out of a 45-70 at about 25
yrds. He managed to survive nearly a week, before the internal organs
simply gave up. Another bag of goo. In neither case was the vest
penetrated.

Bullet "proof" vests, arent. Some are more bullet Resistant than
others however. Adding a ceramic "chicken plate" helps things
tremendously, but also adds some big issues to flexability, and
comfort. Vests at best of times are hot and somewhat uncomfortable,
adding a ceramic plate to the front, back or both, really makes for
some issues. Though a good one will stop..yes stop, a .308 round. Im
told its like getting smacked with a sledgehammer though.

When vests first became commonly available in the early 70s, many
police departments bragged about their officers having them. Then
wondered why so many cops were dying of head wounds.. The perps
simply understood you had to pop em in the head to stop em. And did
so.

Sigh..and Im personally aware of one case, where a fairly new cop,
equipped with the latest high tech geegaws, bells and whistles..and
wearing the latest and greatest state of the art vest, got into a
struggle with a guy armed with a .32, who put it into the cops armpit
and pulled the trigger. That slow, miserably weak bullet punctured
the lung, clipped the right descending aorta, punctured the other
lung and lodged in the other arm. The coroner had to flip a coin as
to what actually was the cause of death..the deflation of both lungs
collapsing and smothering the heart, or the bleed out from the leak in
the aorta. He was gone in less than a minute either way. Not gonna
put a bandaid on that sort of wound.

Ive not seen any data yet on vests versus the new .17 H&R cartridge,
though there are several handguns now made for it. The bottlnecked 5.7
x28 is a newish pistol cartridge specificly designed to penetrate body
armor. Another fine product from Fabriqe Nationale, and becoming very
popular in handguns and submachine guns by military and paramilitary
forces around the globe.

And of course..we cannot forget the fine Tornado bullet, used by the
BATF to shoot each other to doll rags at the Waco cluster****.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:44:58 GMT, Ignoramus8862
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:39:25 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:59:13 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)

I could double check, but it is my recollection that possessing AP
bullets is not illegal, at least in the US in general. High power
rifles, such as 7mm Rem Mag, give their bullets so much energy that
pretty much any bullets from these rifles can go through pretty much
all "bulletproof" vests. A vest that could stop a bullet of this
nature would not be practical to carry.

That's true for almost rifles of roughly that size - .30-06, .308, 7mm
mag, and god-only-knows how many others. Basically anything that size is
going to fit in the category "armor piercing" when loaded with plain old
off-the-shelf deer bullets.

When I asked a cop I know (who, at the time, was bragging about his
spiffy new state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line vest - "This sucker will
stop damn near anything!") "So, if it's so great and protects so well,
what happens if I point my .30-06 at you and pull the trigger?", he
flinched a bit, then in a very matter-of-fact tone replied "Well, I'm
probably gonna drop like a steer in a slaughterhouse, then quietly lay
there and bleed to death - assuming I'm not already dead before I hit
the ground."

Oddly enough, I haven't heard him say diddly-squat about his
ever-so-strong vest since...


Even if his vest stopped the bullet, it still would transfer almost
100% of the bullet's momentum on him. That would amount to being hit
with a high speed paddle. The momentum would be the same as the
rifle's recoil (which is painful), only transferring more energy
because of higher speed of the affected area of the vest, compared to
the speed of rifle moving backwards.

The impulse energy is spread over the surface area of the rifle butt,
but is a point source of say.... .355"....at the impact area.

IOW, the discussion that I started is not of practical nature.

i
But its Scientific..and fun. G

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:06:11 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:


(That's *NOT* saying that a .30-06 isn't "high powered enough"... How
could anyone sane make that claim when it's generally considered to be
"plenty of rifle" for practically anything that walks, flies, crawls, or
slithers on the north American continent? Never mind the crazy folks
who have used it for taking African "big game", up to and including
rhinos and elephants...)

Karamojo Bell used the 7x57 as his official elephant management rifle,
during his tenure as a government game manager. FMJs. Something like
250 elephants IRRC

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:31:07 GMT, Ignoramus8862
wrote:

The "scary" part is that something like an off-the-shelf .30-06 isn't
even really all that "high powered" a load by the standards that today's
magnum and ultra-magnum loads use.

Never liked those, I think that they are a marketing gimmick to sell
expensive ammunition.

They have their purposes. Shrug. But most hunting situations are well
handled by cartridge of the 3006's nature. THough Im rather found of
the 375 H&H, which has similar ballistics as the 06, but with a rather
larger bullet.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:17:37 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon



LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

3006 ammunition is 7.62 mm calibre, isn't it? I don't know much about
guns, but I do recall that the armour used on the famous "Pig" trucks in
Northern Ireland was a little under an inch thick, and this was regarded
as being adequate protection against the armour piercing 7.62 mm rounds
available to the IRA in the 1970s. Now it was definitely welded steel
armour, but it may not have been mild steel, and I'm not sure of the
range at which it offered protection, but the British Army found that it
did the job.

The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester. The FN-FAL being
the rifle most commonly carried by the Tommies in NA until the *******
SA-80 came into service.

The armor on the Saracen/ BMP type scout vehicles is an alloy, and
well heat treated. Often T1 plate..and its much much tougher than
CRS...chuckle...its a bitch to machine. Very much work hardening.

The Humber Pig used double thick armor with an airspace between
them..at least the later models did...MkII IRRC. Very effective
against hard shot small arms and SOME shaped charges.

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

Chobham armour. I believe it was first used on the British Challenger I
tank, and it's probably a good foot thick. Tanks just have huge engines
and wide tracks to cope with the weight.

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

The rifle because it has the longer barrel, so the bullet has more time
to accelerate, is that right?

Iggy might also like to check out this link. Look at the Steyr round
next to the regular 7.62 mm. That is one big AP round:

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm

Chris


Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:45:26 -0600, "R. O'Brian"
wrote:


"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:59:13 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di
wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Elson quickly quoth:

Ignoramus26744 wrote:
This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this,
for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some

(Ig, you meant to say "_Someone_ could, conceivably, cast...", right?)

I could double check, but it is my recollection that possessing AP
bullets is not illegal, at least in the US in general. High power
rifles, such as 7mm Rem Mag, give their bullets so much energy that
pretty much any bullets from these rifles can go through pretty much
all "bulletproof" vests. A vest that could stop a bullet of this
nature would not be practical to carry.

That's true for almost rifles of roughly that size - .30-06, .308, 7mm
mag, and god-only-knows how many others. Basically anything that size is
going to fit in the category "armor piercing" when loaded with plain old
off-the-shelf deer bullets.

When I asked a cop I know (who, at the time, was bragging about his
spiffy new state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line vest - "This sucker will
stop damn near anything!") "So, if it's so great and protects so well,
what happens if I point my .30-06 at you and pull the trigger?", he
flinched a bit, then in a very matter-of-fact tone replied "Well, I'm
probably gonna drop like a steer in a slaughterhouse, then quietly lay
there and bleed to death - assuming I'm not already dead before I hit
the ground."

Oddly enough, I haven't heard him say diddly-squat about his
ever-so-strong vest since...

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my
whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text
"PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without
my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more
info

I have read that almost any shotgun load, even with small shot, will
penetrate the common police dept. vest at close range when the shot is still
in a ball.

Randy



Actually not so. However..blunt force trauma is really really tough on
the wearer.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:17:37 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon



LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

3006 ammunition is 7.62 mm calibre, isn't it? I don't know much about
guns, but I do recall that the armour used on the famous "Pig" trucks in
Northern Ireland was a little under an inch thick, and this was regarded
as being adequate protection against the armour piercing 7.62 mm rounds
available to the IRA in the 1970s. Now it was definitely welded steel
armour, but it may not have been mild steel, and I'm not sure of the
range at which it offered protection, but the British Army found that it
did the job.

The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester......

I don't think so, that is the bore of the barrel..

Gunner

Tom

Gunner Asch wrote:

snip


LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

3006 ammunition is 7.62 mm calibre, isn't it? I don't know much about
guns, but I do recall that the armour used on the famous "Pig" trucks in
Northern Ireland was a little under an inch thick, and this was regarded
as being adequate protection against the armour piercing 7.62 mm rounds
available to the IRA in the 1970s. Now it was definitely welded steel
armour, but it may not have been mild steel, and I'm not sure of the
range at which it offered protection, but the British Army found that it
did the job.


The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester. The FN-FAL being
the rifle most commonly carried by the Tommies in NA until the *******
SA-80 came into service.

The armor on the Saracen/ BMP type scout vehicles is an alloy, and
well heat treated. Often T1 plate..and its much much tougher than
CRS...chuckle...its a bitch to machine. Very much work hardening.

The Humber Pig used double thick armor with an airspace between
them..at least the later models did...MkII IRRC. Very effective
against hard shot small arms and SOME shaped charges.

That's interesting. I've examined several Pigs (including the Mark IIs)
and haven't been able to discern an airspace, so I thought it might be a
myth. Either the airspace is very small, or it wasn't present on all
Mark II vehicles. A guy who is a real Pig enthusiast told me he'd never
seen two identical Pigs, so the latter is entirely possible.

In my opinion, the Pig is the coolest looking armoured vehicle ever
made. It seems it did a pretty good job in Ulster, too, and was lot
cheaper than the Saracen. I saw one for sale for £650 recently. If I'd
had some spare cash and covered storage I would have bought it. Maybe
one day I'll get one...

Chris

Ignoramus26744 wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:


This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?


I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH?



I shot through railroad tie plates (mild steel) with 7.62 mm Mosin
Nagant, using 50 year old ammo. They are, what, 1/2" thick?

That's pretty impressive. But, I am thinking this was right at the
upper limit
of what it could punch through. Seems to me the plates around here are more
like 1/4 or 3/8". That is still a pretty thick plate, as they use them
in pairs.




Have you seen what the Army and Air Force use for armor piercing
ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds for the A-10? These things weigh a
whole POUND each, and are SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!)
The armor they are trying to pierce is about that thick, as far as I
know. A tank couldn't possibly have steel armor too much more than
an inch thick, or it would be too heavy to move.



Frontal armor on a tank can be much thicker than one inch, such as 4
inches or more. Plus, tank armor is stronger than mild steel, due to
metallurgy, use of composite materials etc. And I was asking about 1
inch of mere mild steel.

i


Metal strength doesn't matter that much, as I understand it. The

high velocity penetrating rounds MELT their way through, creating a plasma
that is projected into the armor by the forward momentum of the shell.



Jon

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
Ive got a set of standard 3/4" HRS plates that I hang from chains for
gongs and I have to weld them up or replace them every couple years.
Standard 308 FMJ will penetrate fully a half inch at 400 yrds and a
smidge more at 500 yrds. Can you tell me why it penetrates less at
closer ranges? G

OK. I give up. Why does it penetrate further when shot from farther away?

Peter

Don Bruder wrote:


(That's *NOT* saying that a .30-06 isn't "high powered enough"... How
could anyone sane make that claim when it's generally considered to be
"plenty of rifle" for practically anything that walks, flies, crawls, or
slithers on the north American continent?

this reminds me that my sister once said "cats are less prone..."

which is funny enough as it is, but that certainly means that they fit
in to all the above categories.

mk5000

"even if my blog is censored 100 times, I will write it for the
101st"--WozyYin

Ignoramus8862 wrote:

The momentum would be the same as the
rifle's recoil (which is painful), only transferring more energy
because of higher speed of the affected area of the vest, compared to
the speed of rifle moving backwards.

Is the bullet a rocket?
50% of the energy go into the bullet, the other half into the gun.
E = m/2 v^2. That is true for both the bullet _and_ the gun.

Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

In article ,
says...
Ignoramus8862 wrote:

The momentum would be the same as the
rifle's recoil (which is painful), only transferring more energy
because of higher speed of the affected area of the vest, compared to
the speed of rifle moving backwards.

Is the bullet a rocket?
50% of the energy go into the bullet, the other half into the gun.
E = m/2 v^2. That is true for both the bullet _and_ the gun.


Only in the unlikely case that the mass of the bullet and
gun are equal, otherwise the energy will be divided in
inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. In other
words, if the gun is 99 times as massive as the bullet, the
bullet will leave the barrel with 99% of the energy.

Ned Simmons

Physics.

Consider the arc from the end of the rifle to the target.
The close one is where the bullet is flying flat.
The far one is where the bullet is diving to the ground. Gravity assist.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon



LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

And there are dead spaces between some of the layers to help break up
the flame front jet from shaped charges.

Ive got a set of standard 3/4" HRS plates that I hang from chains for
gongs and I have to weld them up or replace them every couple years.
Standard 308 FMJ will penetrate fully a half inch at 400 yrds and a
smidge more at 500 yrds. Can you tell me why it penetrates less at
closer ranges? G

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

For Gunner's question, when the velocity's too high, the bullet
disintegrates too quickly. At lower velocities, it hangs together and
penetrates.

Pete Keillor

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:54:59 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Physics.

Consider the arc from the end of the rifle to the target.
The close one is where the bullet is flying flat.
The far one is where the bullet is diving to the ground. Gravity assist.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon



LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

And there are dead spaces between some of the layers to help break up
the flame front jet from shaped charges.

Ive got a set of standard 3/4" HRS plates that I hang from chains for
gongs and I have to weld them up or replace them every couple years.
Standard 308 FMJ will penetrate fully a half inch at 400 yrds and a
smidge more at 500 yrds. Can you tell me why it penetrates less at
closer ranges? G

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:11:31 GMT, Ignoramus8862
wrote:

snip

even though I am drunk, I recognize that you are wrong

Great line. Reminds me of Winston Churchill's supposed line in
response to the matron telling him he was drunk, "Yes, but in the
morning I'll be sober, and you'll still be ugly."

Pete Keillor

In article ,
Pete Keillor wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:11:31 GMT, Ignoramus8862
wrote:

snip

even though I am drunk, I recognize that you are wrong

Great line. Reminds me of Winston Churchill's supposed line in
response to the matron telling him he was drunk, "Yes, but in the
morning I'll be sober, and you'll still be ugly."

Even better is the tale of the woman dining with him at some sort of
to-do who supposedly said something like "If I were your wife, I'd
poison your coffee", to which Winston is said to have replied "Madam, if
you were my wife, I'd drink it!"

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:56:14 +1300, Tom wrote:


The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester......

I don't think so, that is the bore of the barrel..

Gunner

Tom

7.62, is .308 diameter. The 7.62 Cartridge (x 51) is physically
identical to the commercial civilian version we call the .308
Winchester. There are some minor differences between the throating of
a x51 weapon and the civilian 308. Btw...the usual name for the
military cartridge is the 7.62 Nato..as its one of the common rounds
for Nato usage.

Like the 5.56 Nato..we in the States call the .223 Remington, when
fired from sporting arms.

Ive owned and fired enough FN-Fals to know what goes down the tube G

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:50:23 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:



Ignoramus26744 wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:


This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?


I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH?



I shot through railroad tie plates (mild steel) with 7.62 mm Mosin
Nagant, using 50 year old ammo. They are, what, 1/2" thick?

That's pretty impressive. But, I am thinking this was right at the
upper limit
of what it could punch through. Seems to me the plates around here are more
like 1/4 or 3/8". That is still a pretty thick plate, as they use them
in pairs.




Have you seen what the Army and Air Force use for armor piercing
ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds for the A-10? These things weigh a
whole POUND each, and are SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!)
The armor they are trying to pierce is about that thick, as far as I
know. A tank couldn't possibly have steel armor too much more than
an inch thick, or it would be too heavy to move.



Frontal armor on a tank can be much thicker than one inch, such as 4
inches or more. Plus, tank armor is stronger than mild steel, due to
metallurgy, use of composite materials etc. And I was asking about 1
inch of mere mild steel.

i


Metal strength doesn't matter that much, as I understand it. The

high velocity penetrating rounds MELT their way through, creating a plasma
that is projected into the armor by the forward momentum of the shell.
Jon

Thats why Depleted Uranium works so well on armored targets.

Gunner




"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:05:57 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

For Gunner's question, when the velocity's too high, the bullet
disintegrates too quickly. At lower velocities, it hangs together and
penetrates.

Pete Keillor


Budda BING! Give that man a big gold star and a box of Kmart 22s.

Gunner


On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:54:59 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Physics.

Consider the arc from the end of the rifle to the target.
The close one is where the bullet is flying flat.
The far one is where the bullet is diving to the ground. Gravity assist.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:16:39 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Ignoramus26744 wrote:

This is purely an idle question. I have no interest in doing this, for
many reasons. The main reason is that 7mm rem mag is armor piercing
even if bullets are made from dung. Anyway. I have some 4.8mm (3/16)
tungsten electrodes (lanthanated). I could, conceivably, cast some
bullets for a 7mm rem mag rifle with the electrode pieces inside, that
would be quite armor piercing. Would they go through, say, 1 inch
thick mild steel plate, assuming propellant loads that are safe for
the rifle?

I'm no expert on armor at all. But, ONE INCH? Have you seen what the
Army and Air Force use for armor piercing ammo? Like the 30 mm rounds
for the A-10? These things weigh a whole POUND each, and are
SOLID U-238 (both hard and heavy as hell!) The armor they are trying
to pierce is about that thick, as far as I know. A tank couldn't
possibly have steel armor too much more than an inch thick, or it would
be too heavy to move.

Jon



LOL...Ah Jon? A 3006 will just about punch an inch of CRS at 100 yrds

Tank armor used to be T1 plate..many inches thick, and the glacis
plates..feet thick.

Now its composit armor, various layers of ceramic, kevlar, aluminum
and steel. Google "Cobham armor"

And there are dead spaces between some of the layers to help break up
the flame front jet from shaped charges.

Ive got a set of standard 3/4" HRS plates that I hang from chains for
gongs and I have to weld them up or replace them every couple years.
Standard 308 FMJ will penetrate fully a half inch at 400 yrds and a
smidge more at 500 yrds. Can you tell me why it penetrates less at
closer ranges? G

Which will shoot though a standard stop sign..a 22 rifle or a 22
pistol, both shooting the same cartridge and at the same 25ft range??
(shooting stop signs is NOT recommened btw)

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

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"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:53:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:05:57 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

For Gunner's question, when the velocity's too high, the bullet
disintegrates too quickly. At lower velocities, it hangs together and
penetrates.

Pete Keillor


Budda BING! Give that man a big gold star and a box of Kmart 22s.

Isn't your statement somewhat of an oxymoron, G? Or is the latter
portion an example of the latter of Pete's 2 statements?


-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

The impulse energy is spread over the surface area of the rifle butt,

It is also spread over a longer period of time. The energy that your
shoulder absorbs is equal to that energy which is imparted on the bullet.
The bullet continues to increase in speed (pick up more energy) until it
leaves the barrel.

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:24:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:53:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:05:57 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

For Gunner's question, when the velocity's too high, the bullet
disintegrates too quickly. At lower velocities, it hangs together and
penetrates.

Pete Keillor


Budda BING! Give that man a big gold star and a box of Kmart 22s.

Isn't your statement somewhat of an oxymoron, G? Or is the latter
portion an example of the latter of Pete's 2 statements?

Huh?

Gunner



-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================= =====

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:56:14 +1300, Tom wrote:


The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester......

I don't think so, that is the bore of the barrel..

Gunner

Tom

7.62, is .308 diameter. The 7.62 Cartridge (x 51) is physically
identical to the commercial civilian version we call the .308
Winchester. There are some minor differences between the throating of
a x51 weapon and the civilian 308. Btw...the usual name for the
military cartridge is the 7.62 Nato..as its one of the common rounds
for Nato usage.

Like the 5.56 Nato..we in the States call the .223 Remington, when
fired from sporting arms.

Ive owned and fired enough FN-Fals to know what goes down the tube G

Gunner

The calibre of a gun is not the diameter of the projectile..
7.62mm does not equate to .308" 7.62 relates to the .30
calibre bore which it shares with a myriad of cartridges
which also use a .308 projectile. 30.06, .30 Rem, 30-30Win,
..300 Sav. etc etc..
That Winchester went against convention when they named the
..308 is beside the point, this is a metalworking newsgroup and
you made a sloppy statement. Please step up! :-)
As for firing the weapon in particular, where I come from it
was standard issue, albeit Australian made, so possibly my
experience may exceed yours..:-(
BTW, the 5.56 Nato also relates to the calibre rather than the
bullet diameter..

Tom

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:18:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:24:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:53:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:05:57 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

For Gunner's question, when the velocity's too high, the bullet
disintegrates too quickly. At lower velocities, it hangs together and
penetrates.

Pete Keillor


Budda BING! Give that man a big gold star and a box of Kmart 22s.

Isn't your statement somewhat of an oxymoron, G? Or is the latter
portion an example of the latter of Pete's 2 statements?

Huh?

Gold star good. Kmart crap bad. (Unless you're looking for lower
velocity ammo?)


-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:40:29 +1300, Tom wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:56:14 +1300, Tom wrote:


The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester......

I don't think so, that is the bore of the barrel..

Gunner

Tom

7.62, is .308 diameter. The 7.62 Cartridge (x 51) is physically
identical to the commercial civilian version we call the .308
Winchester. There are some minor differences between the throating of
a x51 weapon and the civilian 308. Btw...the usual name for the
military cartridge is the 7.62 Nato..as its one of the common rounds
for Nato usage.

Like the 5.56 Nato..we in the States call the .223 Remington, when
fired from sporting arms.

Ive owned and fired enough FN-Fals to know what goes down the tube G

Gunner

The calibre of a gun is not the diameter of the projectile..
7.62mm does not equate to .308" 7.62 relates to the .30
calibre bore which it shares with a myriad of cartridges
which also use a .308 projectile. 30.06, .30 Rem, 30-30Win,
.300 Sav. etc etc..
That Winchester went against convention when they named the
.308 is beside the point, this is a metalworking newsgroup and
you made a sloppy statement. Please step up! :-)
As for firing the weapon in particular, where I come from it
was standard issue, albeit Australian made, so possibly my
experience may exceed yours..:-(
BTW, the 5.56 Nato also relates to the calibre rather than the
bullet diameter..

Tom

Too true Tom. But often ballisticians (or at the least the US ones)
(and marketing wonks) consider groove diameter, rather than purely
bore diameter to be the deciding/naming convention factor, so there is
indeed some sloppy terminology. It is indeed a .30 caliber, using a
..308 diameter bullet. As far as going against convention..then
perhaps so did the originators of the .243, the 270, the .223, the
..257 Roberts, the 264 Mag, the 375 H&H, and so forth? G
Oddly enough..its the Euros that do the bore diameter thingy..the 303
Brit, the 6/7/8 mms...and then of course..the 6.5s

As far as possibly exceeding my experience..unless you have fired more
than somerwhere over 80,000 rounds through the Fals...shrug

Your L1A1 is an interesting rifle, able to accept inch or metric
magazines.

Btw..Ive several Lithgow SMLEs in the collection.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:59:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:18:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:24:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:53:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:05:57 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

For Gunner's question, when the velocity's too high, the bullet
disintegrates too quickly. At lower velocities, it hangs together and
penetrates.

Pete Keillor


Budda BING! Give that man a big gold star and a box of Kmart 22s.

Isn't your statement somewhat of an oxymoron, G? Or is the latter
portion an example of the latter of Pete's 2 statements?

Huh?

Gold star good. Kmart crap bad. (Unless you're looking for lower
velocity ammo?)



hey now! I buy my Winchester Wildcats at K-mart! And those are the
rounds that got me all those pins and neat ribbons, shooting them out
of the Anshutz Match 54. Goofy damned thing likes .99c a box
Wildcats better than $6 a box Eley Match.

Gunner

-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================= =====

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:40:29 +1300, Tom wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:56:14 +1300, Tom wrote:


The diameter of the bullet is 7.62, indeed, but its NOT the same as
the CARTRIDGE designated as the 7.62 x51, which is what the FN-FAL
fired..the basiclly equivelent of our 308 Winchester......

I don't think so, that is the bore of the barrel..

Gunner

Tom

7.62, is .308 diameter. The 7.62 Cartridge (x 51) is physically
identical to the commercial civilian version we call the .308
Winchester. There are some minor differences between the throating of
a x51 weapon and the civilian 308. Btw...the usual name for the
military cartridge is the 7.62 Nato..as its one of the common rounds
for Nato usage.

Like the 5.56 Nato..we in the States call the .223 Remington, when
fired from sporting arms.

Ive owned and fired enough FN-Fals to know what goes down the tube G

Gunner

The calibre of a gun is not the diameter of the projectile..
7.62mm does not equate to .308" 7.62 relates to the .30
calibre bore which it shares with a myriad of cartridges
which also use a .308 projectile. 30.06, .30 Rem, 30-30Win,
.300 Sav. etc etc..
That Winchester went against convention when they named the
.308 is beside the point, this is a metalworking newsgroup and
you made a sloppy statement. Please step up! :-)
As for firing the weapon in particular, where I come from it
was standard issue, albeit Australian made, so possibly my
experience may exceed yours..:-(
BTW, the 5.56 Nato also relates to the calibre rather than the
bullet diameter..

Tom

Too true Tom. But often ballisticians (or at the least the US ones)
(and marketing wonks) consider groove diameter, rather than purely
bore diameter to be the deciding/naming convention factor, so there is
indeed some sloppy terminology. It is indeed a .30 caliber, using a
.308 diameter bullet. As far as going against convention..then
perhaps so did the originators of the .243, the 270, the .223, the
.257 Roberts, the 264 Mag, the 375 H&H, and so forth? G
Oddly enough..its the Euros that do the bore diameter thingy..the 303
Brit, the 6/7/8 mms...and then of course..the 6.5s

As far as possibly exceeding my experience..unless you have fired more
than somerwhere over 80,000 rounds through the Fals...shrug

Your L1A1 is an interesting rifle, able to accept inch or metric
magazines.

Btw..Ive several Lithgow SMLEs in the collection.

Gunner

Well I'm glad we've got that sorted. However I'm at a loss
as to why you would have fired so much through such a weapon.
My expenditure of ammo was courtesy of the military where the
rifle was regarded as the "mechanical musket" not anyone's
favourite weapon and one never bothered to keep count especially
when using the L2A1 version..

Tom

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:06:11 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:


(That's *NOT* saying that a .30-06 isn't "high powered enough"... How
could anyone sane make that claim when it's generally considered to be
"plenty of rifle" for practically anything that walks, flies, crawls, or
slithers on the north American continent? Never mind the crazy folks
who have used it for taking African "big game", up to and including
rhinos and elephants...)

Karamojo Bell used the 7x57 as his official elephant management rifle,
during his tenure as a government game manager. FMJs. Something like
250 elephants IRRC

Gunner


I've read damned few books of that nature in my lifetime. I'm not keen on
reading unless it's something that interests me, and I'm more inclined to
read books that instruct me in things that I desire to learn, but on the
recommendation of a long past friend, I read the book Karamojo Safari.
It's been so damned many years since I read it that my memory is not good,
but one of the things I recall is that Bell shot over 1,000 elephants,
almost always 1 shot kills, and with nothing larger than a 7 mm rifle.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. In the book, comments were made how
he would stand on the body of a fallen elephant to shoot another.

As Iggy said, I'm also against such slaughter, but it's interesting that
such a small weapon is so effective against such large game. Makes me
wonder why I needed the .458 Magnum Ackley built for me in the late 50's.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Makes me wonder why I needed the .458 Magnum Ackley built
for me in the late 50's.

Clearly, you don't. Please send it to me immediately.

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Makes me wonder why I needed the .458 Magnum Ackley built
for me in the late 50's.

Clearly, you don't. Please send it to me immediately.


I was told it was a perfectly effective elephant gun, which I firmly
believe. Since owning it, I've not been plagued by so much as one of them.
:-)

Harold