We had a storm. Not Katrina or Rita scale, but it did tear things up
some in Minneapolis.

95 hours down, but we're up and running again. YAY!

I'm impressed with how Xcel handled the aftermath of this storm. On
Wed nite they had over 200,000 customers without power.
They must triage things so the early work goes to fixing problems that
affect the greatest number, which includes safety matters like traffic
signals on arterials and perhaps businesses to minimize temptation to
loot. Smaller neighborhood pockets like us had to wait our turn.
Someone has to. We must have been near the end of the list, because
as of 10PM tonight they were down to 12,000 still without power.

Our turn came this afternoon. The crews were all over this
neighborhood like locusts. A tree crew from Des Moines, IA took
care of the tree that took out the 8000-volt line serving our end of
Hickory Dr. They (two guys with a cherrypicker truck) had that
tree cleared in 20 minutes. They didn't remove the tree, just cut it
well clear of the powerlines so they could fix the lines. Further
tree work will be (electrically) safe for neighbor Dan or whomever he
might hire. Dan is a metro guy, doesn't want any help. I tried.

An Xcel crew (another two guys with another cherrypicker) was right
behind them, had the line spliced and made taut with a new insulator
in another 20 minutes. Similar things were happening in several
locations around the neighborhood. The lights went on 20 minutes
after they were done here, just before dark.

These crews had undoubtedly been working dawn-to-dark since Thu AM.
They've probably been knocking down some serious overtime pay, but
I'll bet they'll be glad to be done. A huge amount of work got
done in 95 hours. Someone did a superb job of organization and
perhaps preparedness. The crews I saw working were pros, no wasted
motion and no hardhats loafing and watching. They get there, "get
her done right" and go on to the next job.

This being Minnesota, there were lots of examples of neighbors
helping neighbors. The sound of chainsaws (including mine) has been
about constant for the past few days. I sustained no damage other
than a lot of debris in my yard (cleaned up on Thursday) so I spent
a coupla days bucking and swamping for a neighbor with a problem,
big tree fallen on her garage. Neighbor Ms Lillian's rellie
Lester, no younger than I but a damned good tree man, kept the timber
raining down for me and some others to buck and swamp. We "got her
done". I'm not a strong young man, but I can work a little now and
then. I enjoyed working with those guys. Ms Lillian, about 70,
noted that Dan is a metro neighbor but "you guys are like small town
neighbors." I took that as a huge compliment. Ms Lillian says
exactly what she thinks when she says anything at all. She is one
neat lady. She had power days before we did, invited us to run an
extension cord from her garage for minimal needs e.g. freezer.
Gratefully accepted. I also kiped my 'puter on the feed to keep
meself from going nuts. I'd read three novels by flashlight, was
getting owly because I couldn't make chips.

I didn't like being without power for 95 hours any better than anyone
else would, but I think Xcel and its crews did an impressive and
thoroughly professional job of dealing with the aftermath of a storm.

I'll be buying a generator soon. Summertime outage is inconvenient,
nothing more. We do primitive just fine. But an ice storm causing
a similar outage midwinter could be serious. Frozen plumbing can be a
very costly mess. There isn't a genny within 75 miles of Mnpls
just now, but they'll restock eventually. I'm looking at a Honda
5.5KW per recommendation from Fitch.

Ig would no doubt find one for $9.99. I'm not that good at finding
bargains. I want something I can count on, bargain or not. Onan is
right here in Fridley and I recall from army days that Onan made
seriously good gennys -- but I just need a small one. Honda has an
excellent rep with small gennys.

....

I'll be buying a generator soon. Summertime outage is inconvenient,
nothing more. We do primitive just fine. But an ice storm causing
a similar outage midwinter could be serious. Frozen plumbing can be a
very costly mess. There isn't a genny within 75 miles of Mnpls
just now, but they'll restock eventually. I'm looking at a Honda
5.5KW per recommendation from Fitch.
....

This one strikes a nerve at home. When I was a newlywed (26 years ago), we
bought an old farm house way out in the country. The SO was still carrying
laundry to town when I came home with a portable generator that I had got a
deal on. No talk about it ahead of time. My point that life out in the
country without power in case of an ice storm didn't carry squat against the
washer/dryer combo that she had spotted on sale. AND now we couldn't afford
it. We've still never had that ice storm. AND its still a sore subject.

Don,
I'm glad to see "Minnesota Nice" exists in the Metro area. With the folks
we've seen move out to our little spec of Paradise from the Metro, I
wondered if it was gone.

Karl

We had a bad ice storm here in NH in the late 90's that took out
electricity for a week. I managed to patch the dozen holes in the roof
with a battery Makita panel saw recharged by a lunchbox-sized ham radio
generator but it taught me to have spare plywood and a generator large
enough to run power tools.

Snow mixed with salt cools down to about 5 F and can keep the contents
of the freezer frozen. Other food keeps well outdoors in coolers, which
protect it from freezing and small animals.

jw

In article . net, Karl Townsend
says...

This one strikes a nerve at home. When I was a newlywed (26 years ago), we
bought an old farm house way out in the country. The SO was still carrying
laundry to town when I came home with a portable generator that I had got a
deal on. No talk about it ahead of time. My point that life out in the
country without power in case of an ice storm didn't carry squat against the
washer/dryer combo that she had spotted on sale. AND now we couldn't afford
it. We've still never had that ice storm. AND its still a sore subject.

Ah, but flip that around, and have a storm like that.

"well, if we had a generator we could keep the boiler and well
pump running, but we don't. So there's gonna be no water and
no heat till it comes back up."

Wimmin folks get squirrely when there's no indoor plumbing. You would
have been out shopping for the best generator you could want, in short
order.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

We're glad you're ok, Don; sort of wondered where you went - I guess
"fishing" wasn't the right guess. It is good to hear stories like your's of
self sufficiency .

Bob Swinney
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
We had a storm. Not Katrina or Rita scale, but it did tear things up
some in Minneapolis.

95 hours down, but we're up and running again. YAY!

I'm impressed with how Xcel handled the aftermath of this storm. On
Wed nite they had over 200,000 customers without power.
They must triage things so the early work goes to fixing problems that
affect the greatest number, which includes safety matters like traffic
signals on arterials and perhaps businesses to minimize temptation to
loot. Smaller neighborhood pockets like us had to wait our turn.
Someone has to. We must have been near the end of the list, because
as of 10PM tonight they were down to 12,000 still without power.

Our turn came this afternoon. The crews were all over this
neighborhood like locusts. A tree crew from Des Moines, IA took
care of the tree that took out the 8000-volt line serving our end of
Hickory Dr. They (two guys with a cherrypicker truck) had that
tree cleared in 20 minutes. They didn't remove the tree, just cut it
well clear of the powerlines so they could fix the lines. Further
tree work will be (electrically) safe for neighbor Dan or whomever he
might hire. Dan is a metro guy, doesn't want any help. I tried.

An Xcel crew (another two guys with another cherrypicker) was right
behind them, had the line spliced and made taut with a new insulator
in another 20 minutes. Similar things were happening in several
locations around the neighborhood. The lights went on 20 minutes
after they were done here, just before dark.

These crews had undoubtedly been working dawn-to-dark since Thu AM.
They've probably been knocking down some serious overtime pay, but
I'll bet they'll be glad to be done. A huge amount of work got
done in 95 hours. Someone did a superb job of organization and
perhaps preparedness. The crews I saw working were pros, no wasted
motion and no hardhats loafing and watching. They get there, "get
her done right" and go on to the next job.

This being Minnesota, there were lots of examples of neighbors
helping neighbors. The sound of chainsaws (including mine) has been
about constant for the past few days. I sustained no damage other
than a lot of debris in my yard (cleaned up on Thursday) so I spent
a coupla days bucking and swamping for a neighbor with a problem,
big tree fallen on her garage. Neighbor Ms Lillian's rellie
Lester, no younger than I but a damned good tree man, kept the timber
raining down for me and some others to buck and swamp. We "got her
done". I'm not a strong young man, but I can work a little now and
then. I enjoyed working with those guys. Ms Lillian, about 70,
noted that Dan is a metro neighbor but "you guys are like small town
neighbors." I took that as a huge compliment. Ms Lillian says
exactly what she thinks when she says anything at all. She is one
neat lady. She had power days before we did, invited us to run an
extension cord from her garage for minimal needs e.g. freezer.
Gratefully accepted. I also kiped my 'puter on the feed to keep
meself from going nuts. I'd read three novels by flashlight, was
getting owly because I couldn't make chips.

I didn't like being without power for 95 hours any better than anyone
else would, but I think Xcel and its crews did an impressive and
thoroughly professional job of dealing with the aftermath of a storm.

I'll be buying a generator soon. Summertime outage is inconvenient,
nothing more. We do primitive just fine. But an ice storm causing
a similar outage midwinter could be serious. Frozen plumbing can be a
very costly mess. There isn't a genny within 75 miles of Mnpls
just now, but they'll restock eventually. I'm looking at a Honda
5.5KW per recommendation from Fitch.

Ig would no doubt find one for $9.99. I'm not that good at finding
bargains. I want something I can count on, bargain or not. Onan is
right here in Fridley and I recall from army days that Onan made
seriously good gennys -- but I just need a small one. Honda has an
excellent rep with small gennys.

My point that life out in the country without power in case
of an ice storm didn't carry squat against the
washer/dryer combo that she had spotted on
sale. AND now we couldn't afford it.

You should've bought the internal-combustion powered Maytag :-). It'll
wash your clothes AND run when the power is out!

I think they made them up through the 60's, they still show up at farm
auctions etc.

jim rozen writes:

Wimmin folks get squirrely when there's no indoor plumbing. You would
have been out shopping for the best generator you could want, in short
order.

Jim

I start the major plumbing jobs after SWMBO hits the sack- swing over to
the 24hr Home Despot at 3am for more bit & pieces and chat with the
other SOBs in the same boat. Theres always a few...

I'm not going to be the one to tell her she can't wash her hair because
the water main isn't hooked up yet.

Gregm

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:36:44 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

I'll be buying a generator soon. Summertime outage is inconvenient,
nothing more. We do primitive just fine. But an ice storm causing
a similar outage midwinter could be serious. Frozen plumbing can be a
very costly mess. There isn't a genny within 75 miles of Mnpls
just now, but they'll restock eventually. I'm looking at a Honda
5.5KW per recommendation from Fitch.

Ig would no doubt find one for $9.99. I'm not that good at finding
bargains. I want something I can count on, bargain or not. Onan is
right here in Fridley and I recall from army days that Onan made
seriously good gennys -- but I just need a small one. Honda has an
excellent rep with small gennys.


Check with an RV dealer as to where crashed, burned and busted
Motorhomes go when they die. Most have decent Onan or equiv gensets,
along with big battery banks in the belly of the beasts. Sometimes you
can get a hell of a deal. And consider snagging a reefer out of one
too..they will run on propane, 110 or 12vt (usually) which makes it
easy to snag food out of your regular fridge and keep it cold using
alternative methods.

Geeze Don..you and others here are starting to sound like
Survivalists..

Whoda thunkit?

G

Gunner, with a 25 yr headstart.

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:51:45 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:

...

I'll be buying a generator soon. Summertime outage is inconvenient,
nothing more. We do primitive just fine. But an ice storm causing
a similar outage midwinter could be serious. Frozen plumbing can be a
very costly mess. There isn't a genny within 75 miles of Mnpls
just now, but they'll restock eventually. I'm looking at a Honda
5.5KW per recommendation from Fitch.
...

This one strikes a nerve at home. When I was a newlywed (26 years ago), we
bought an old farm house way out in the country. The SO was still carrying
laundry to town when I came home with a portable generator that I had got a
deal on. No talk about it ahead of time. My point that life out in the
country without power in case of an ice storm didn't carry squat against the
washer/dryer combo that she had spotted on sale. AND now we couldn't afford
it. We've still never had that ice storm. AND its still a sore subject.

It is admittedly unlikely, but I'll consider it as cheap insurance.
Convenience during summer storms and outages will be a bonus.

Don,
I'm glad to see "Minnesota Nice" exists in the Metro area. With the folks
we've seen move out to our little spec of Paradise from the Metro, I
wondered if it was gone.

It exists in pockets. I'm lucky to live in a neighborhood of nice
folks in a northern 'burb. I'm pretty sure I would not like living
in the flossy western and southern 'burbs. I don't even like driving
on 394 anymore. Courtesy seems to be something expected but not
practiced by the Lakies and westies. Get there first, grab the most.

Karl

On 26 Sep 2005 05:04:59 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article . net, Karl Townsend
says...

This one strikes a nerve at home. When I was a newlywed (26 years ago), we
bought an old farm house way out in the country. The SO was still carrying
laundry to town when I came home with a portable generator that I had got a
deal on. No talk about it ahead of time. My point that life out in the
country without power in case of an ice storm didn't carry squat against the
washer/dryer combo that she had spotted on sale. AND now we couldn't afford
it. We've still never had that ice storm. AND its still a sore subject.

Ah, but flip that around, and have a storm like that.

"well, if we had a generator we could keep the boiler and well
pump running, but we don't. So there's gonna be no water and
no heat till it comes back up."

Wimmin folks get squirrely when there's no indoor plumbing. You would
have been out shopping for the best generator you could want, in short
order.

You wouldn't have found one within 50 miles. I checked as far west
as Rogers and as far north as Forest Lake. All gone.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:29:32 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Check with an RV dealer as to where crashed, burned and busted
Motorhomes go when they die. Most have decent Onan or equiv gensets,
along with big battery banks in the belly of the beasts. Sometimes you
can get a hell of a deal. And consider snagging a reefer out of one
too..they will run on propane, 110 or 12vt (usually) which makes it
easy to snag food out of your regular fridge and keep it cold using
alternative methods.

We have a Danfoss propane reefer in the truck camper, but the freezer
is just adequate to make a few ice cubes. I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Geeze Don..you and others here are starting to sound like
Survivalists..

Whoda thunkit?

G

Many Minnesotans, particularly those ex-metro, are quiet
survivalists of a sort though they probably wouldn't acknowledge the
label. They just regard it as common sense. Survival kits go
into the car trunks every year about 1 November. Breaking and
entering in the nighttime is almost unheard of in the northern suburbs
for some reason.....perhaps the burglars are "Minnesota nice"?

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:51:45 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:


It exists in pockets. I'm lucky to live in a neighborhood of nice
folks in a northern 'burb. I'm pretty sure I would not like living
in the flossy western and southern 'burbs. I don't even like driving
on 394 anymore. Courtesy seems to be something expected but not
practiced by the Lakies and westies. Get there first, grab the most.

Don,

Whereabouts do you live? I'm in the northern part of Andover, just south of
Oak Grove between Round Lake Blvd and Hanson.

I was fortunate enough to come out of the storm unscathed but a coworker of
mine who lives off of Bunker had two nice large trees down and most of his
privacy fence was destroyed. He will need a new roof, new siding, and new
facia due to the hail. Our work (in north Minneapolis) was out of power
Thursday, so I spent the day at his house practicing my chainsaw skills.
The whole day there I heard nothing but chainsaws and the sound of the news
helicopters overhead. I hope he has good insurance.

I have a fellow church-goer who has seven trees down in her place in
Brooklyn Park. I'll be over there soon to assess the situation. Maybe some
can be saved, but we will see.

It was good to see all the neighbors come to each other's aid.

Relz

In article , Don Foreman says...


We have a Danfoss propane reefer in the truck camper, but the freezer
is just adequate to make a few ice cubes. I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Interesting approach. I would worry of course that the main might
be stuck closed for some unlikely reason. If you *do* go about
doing something illicit like this, you might want to pull *all*
the breakers in the panel, and then test across both poles of the
main with a proper wigger tester that measures continuity on hot
stuff. Then close the load breakers and tie in.

That way you'll be sure the main is open and nobody can get hurt.

And of course, tag the main out so nobody shows up and flips it
closed at a 'bad' time.

*If* you were thinking of doing this, hypothetically speaking and all.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:24:22 -0500, "Relz"
wrote:


Don,

Whereabouts do you live? I'm in the northern part of Andover, just south of
Oak Grove between Round Lake Blvd and Hanson.

I was fortunate enough to come out of the storm unscathed but a coworker of
mine who lives off of Bunker had two nice large trees down and most of his
privacy fence was destroyed. He will need a new roof, new siding, and new
facia due to the hail. Our work (in north Minneapolis) was out of power
Thursday, so I spent the day at his house practicing my chainsaw skills.
The whole day there I heard nothing but chainsaws and the sound of the news
helicopters overhead. I hope he has good insurance.

I have a fellow church-goer who has seven trees down in her place in
Brooklyn Park. I'll be over there soon to assess the situation. Maybe some
can be saved, but we will see.

It was good to see all the neighbors come to each other's aid.

Relz

I'm in Fridley, just west of East River Road and south of Osborne
Road. I think Andover got hit harder than we did, though there are
still parts of Fridley that are without power.

On 26 Sep 2005 15:39:22 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Don Foreman says...


We have a Danfoss propane reefer in the truck camper, but the freezer
is just adequate to make a few ice cubes. I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Interesting approach. I would worry of course that the main might
be stuck closed for some unlikely reason. If you *do* go about
doing something illicit like this, you might want to pull *all*
the breakers in the panel, and then test across both poles of the
main with a proper wigger tester that measures continuity on hot
stuff. Then close the load breakers and tie in.

That way you'll be sure the main is open and nobody can get hurt.

And of course, tag the main out so nobody shows up and flips it
closed at a 'bad' time.

*If* you were thinking of doing this, hypothetically speaking and all.

Jim
My neighbor set up his generator in the above method. I told him it
was a bad idea. Someone could get hurt. He used a cord with male plugs
on both ends. Instead of having the one in the house male. Which would
seem to be the way it should be set up, if at all, because the house
is disconnected from the mains and so there would be no power present
at the plug unless it was covered by, and connected to, the generator
receptacle. I didn't help him because it's dangerous. I did tell him
how I would do it if I had to. Anyway, he's at work, and we are having
a windstorm and the power is turning off and on. His wife calls and
asks me to start the generator (she's not so strong) so it will be
running when the power goes out and all she has to do is throw the
switch that disconnects the house from the mains and connects the
generator. I get the generator started and she hands me the cord. It
won't fit into the genny receptacle because one of the blades on the
plug is slightly bent. So I grab the goddamned thing and it shock the
**** out of me! My neighbor had wired the thing up so two switches had
to be thrown and his wife had only thrown one! He had it set up so you
had to throw the main breaker off and then turn on another breaker
toconnect certain circuits. I was so stupid to grab the blade on that
plug. Especially after I had told him what NOT to do, and how to wire
it so that there was no way he could backfeed the mains. Of course he
was gonna do it the wrong way and I should have known better. It's too
bad the plug didn't slide right in to the generator. Because if it did
there would have probably destroyed the generator. I'm still ****ed
about how stupid I was, and how stupid my neighbor is.
ERS

Eric R Snow wrote:
On 26 Sep 2005 15:39:22 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Don Foreman says...


We have a Danfoss propane reefer in the truck camper, but the freezer
is just adequate to make a few ice cubes. I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Interesting approach. I would worry of course that the main might
be stuck closed for some unlikely reason. If you *do* go about
doing something illicit like this, you might want to pull *all*
the breakers in the panel, and then test across both poles of the
main with a proper wigger tester that measures continuity on hot
stuff. Then close the load breakers and tie in.

That way you'll be sure the main is open and nobody can get hurt.

And of course, tag the main out so nobody shows up and flips it
closed at a 'bad' time.

*If* you were thinking of doing this, hypothetically speaking and all.

Jim

My neighbor set up his generator in the above method. I told him it
was a bad idea. Someone could get hurt. He used a cord with male plugs
on both ends. Instead of having the one in the house male. Which would
seem to be the way it should be set up, if at all, because the house
is disconnected from the mains and so there would be no power present
at the plug unless it was covered by, and connected to, the generator
receptacle. I didn't help him because it's dangerous. I did tell him
how I would do it if I had to. Anyway, he's at work, and we are having
a windstorm and the power is turning off and on. His wife calls and
asks me to start the generator (she's not so strong) so it will be
running when the power goes out and all she has to do is throw the
switch that disconnects the house from the mains and connects the
generator. I get the generator started and she hands me the cord. It
won't fit into the genny receptacle because one of the blades on the
plug is slightly bent. So I grab the goddamned thing and it shock the
**** out of me! My neighbor had wired the thing up so two switches had
to be thrown and his wife had only thrown one! He had it set up so you
had to throw the main breaker off and then turn on another breaker
toconnect certain circuits. I was so stupid to grab the blade on that
plug. Especially after I had told him what NOT to do, and how to wire
it so that there was no way he could backfeed the mains. Of course he
was gonna do it the wrong way and I should have known better. It's too
bad the plug didn't slide right in to the generator. Because if it did
there would have probably destroyed the generator. I'm still ****ed
about how stupid I was, and how stupid my neighbor is.
ERS

A spectacular example of "no good deed goes unpunished"

In article , Eric R Snow says...

... I'm still ****ed
about how stupid I was, and how stupid my neighbor is.

Any time I see a suicide cord, I figure it requires *special*
respect. And that goes for cords with alligator clips on one end,
cords with two male cord caps, or cords with bare wires at the
other end.

They don't call 'em suicide cords for nothing.

If I were to set something like this up, I would never allow
anyone to think about setting it in operation.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 26 Sep 2005 15:39:22 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Don Foreman says...


We have a Danfoss propane reefer in the truck camper, but the freezer
is just adequate to make a few ice cubes. I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Interesting approach. I would worry of course that the main might
be stuck closed for some unlikely reason. If you *do* go about
doing something illicit like this, you might want to pull *all*
the breakers in the panel, and then test across both poles of the
main with a proper wigger tester that measures continuity on hot
stuff. Then close the load breakers and tie in.

That way you'll be sure the main is open and nobody can get hurt.

And of course, tag the main out so nobody shows up and flips it
closed at a 'bad' time.

*If* you were thinking of doing this, hypothetically speaking and all.

Jim

Right. Thanks for mentioning those prudent measures for the
hypothetical case where someone might do such a thing.

On 26 Sep 2005 18:28:17 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Eric R Snow says...

... I'm still ****ed
about how stupid I was, and how stupid my neighbor is.

Any time I see a suicide cord, I figure it requires *special*
respect. And that goes for cords with alligator clips on one end,
cords with two male cord caps, or cords with bare wires at the
other end.

They don't call 'em suicide cords for nothing.

If I were to set something like this up, I would never allow
anyone to think about setting it in operation.

Jim

Good points all. I'm the only one that would ever do anything
electrical around here, but I'll still be re-thinking this a bit.

By "pulling the breaker", I meant pulling it so it's in my hand, then
set aside. Perhaps it would have to be inserted into my "transfer
box" at the genny to connect. It can only be in one place at a time.

A double-ended plug does sound like asking for trouble. I'll
contrive some kind of safe connection scheme. Switches and relays are
definitely not to be trusted. An FMEA (Failure Mode Effects Analysis)
is in order here.

No hurry. I'll take the time to get it right. A transfer switch is
the certified "right" way to do it -- about $300 for $15 worth of
stuff.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:41:19 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

On 26 Sep 2005 15:39:22 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Don Foreman says...


We have a Danfoss propane reefer in the truck camper, but the freezer
is just adequate to make a few ice cubes. I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Interesting approach. I would worry of course that the main might
be stuck closed for some unlikely reason. If you *do* go about
doing something illicit like this, you might want to pull *all*
the breakers in the panel, and then test across both poles of the
main with a proper wigger tester that measures continuity on hot
stuff. Then close the load breakers and tie in.

That way you'll be sure the main is open and nobody can get hurt.

And of course, tag the main out so nobody shows up and flips it
closed at a 'bad' time.

*If* you were thinking of doing this, hypothetically speaking and all.

Jim
My neighbor set up his generator in the above method. I told him it
was a bad idea. Someone could get hurt. He used a cord with male plugs
on both ends. Instead of having the one in the house male. Which would
seem to be the way it should be set up, if at all, because the house
is disconnected from the mains and so there would be no power present
at the plug unless it was covered by, and connected to, the generator
receptacle. I didn't help him because it's dangerous. I did tell him
how I would do it if I had to. Anyway, he's at work, and we are having
a windstorm and the power is turning off and on. His wife calls and
asks me to start the generator (she's not so strong) so it will be
running when the power goes out and all she has to do is throw the
switch that disconnects the house from the mains and connects the
generator. I get the generator started and she hands me the cord. It
won't fit into the genny receptacle because one of the blades on the
plug is slightly bent. So I grab the goddamned thing and it shock the
**** out of me! My neighbor had wired the thing up so two switches had
to be thrown and his wife had only thrown one! He had it set up so you
had to throw the main breaker off and then turn on another breaker
toconnect certain circuits. I was so stupid to grab the blade on that
plug. Especially after I had told him what NOT to do, and how to wire
it so that there was no way he could backfeed the mains. Of course he
was gonna do it the wrong way and I should have known better. It's too
bad the plug didn't slide right in to the generator. Because if it did
there would have probably destroyed the generator. I'm still ****ed
about how stupid I was, and how stupid my neighbor is.
ERS

Its also illegal as hell.

Install a proper transfer switch, or use drop cords

The life you save, may be a linemans.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:51:56 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Its also illegal as hell.

Install a proper transfer switch, or use drop cords

The life you save, may be a linemans.

No juice can leave the premises if there is visible air space
between line and local circuits. Got any transfer switches that
could be shipped for $20 or so?

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:51:56 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Its also illegal as hell.

Install a proper transfer switch, or use drop cords

The life you save, may be a linemans.

No juice can leave the premises if there is visible air space
between line and local circuits. Got any transfer switches that
could be shipped for $20 or so?

What I had in mind, when I was thinking about a genny, was a pony panel that
all the emergency power loads goes throught and a big plug. for everyday use
the important stuff ( fridge, furnace hall lights....) gets its power from
the main panel. in a blackout you pull the plug and move it over to the
generator output. Cost a pony panel, 2 welder sockets and a plug.
When the pwoer comes back you know because the TV suddenly turns on.
Pat

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:37:01 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:51:56 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Its also illegal as hell.

Install a proper transfer switch, or use drop cords

The life you save, may be a linemans.

No juice can leave the premises if there is visible air space
between line and local circuits. Got any transfer switches that
could be shipped for $20 or so?

General comment, not directed at you.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:20:16 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:37:01 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:51:56 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Its also illegal as hell.

Install a proper transfer switch, or use drop cords

The life you save, may be a linemans.

No juice can leave the premises if there is visible air space
between line and local circuits. Got any transfer switches that
could be shipped for $20 or so?

General comment, not directed at you.

Gunner

I wondered if that might be so. G You are absolutely right,
transfer switch or drop cords are unquestionably the right
approaches. Transfer switches are undoubtedly well-designed, but
I'd even want to inspect that before I trusted it. I wonder how much
of the price is lawyerproofing, as in gas valves and ladders.

Tim Shoppa wrote:
My point that life out in the country without power in case
of an ice storm didn't carry squat against the
washer/dryer combo that she had spotted on
sale. AND now we couldn't afford it.


You should've bought the internal-combustion powered Maytag :-). It'll
wash your clothes AND run when the power is out!

I think they made them up through the 60's, they still show up at farm
auctions etc.


Yep, and I've got a spark plug from one of those Maytags in my goody box.

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/plug.jpg

It comes apart for cleaning and uses a copper gasket to seal it gas
tight. NPT threads where it screwed into the engine.

Says "Maytag" on it too. You can just see the "g" to the left of The "C"
in Champion in the RH photo.

The serendipidous part related to this thread is that I "poisonally"
gave Don one of the two I'd just found, as a gag gift, when we were in
Fridley a few years ago. :-)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Please don't do that!!! I prefer to see the Excel guys stringing wire,
not swearing at folks back feeding power on them.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:59:56 GMT, RoyJ wrote:


I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Please don't do that!!! I prefer to see the Excel guys stringing wire,
not swearing at folks back feeding power on them.

Not to worry, Roy. I'll not zap a lineman doing his job.

Matter of fact, they ground dead lines to avoid hazards from fools.
I'll have visible air between genny contacts and grid contact.

My training as an electrical engineer 40 years ago included some work
with thick wire and lab work requiring an overhead gantry crane.
Computers were for grad students.

I'm probably not as smart as you are, but I can assure you that I
won't be zapping any linemen.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:59:56 GMT, RoyJ wrote:


I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Please don't do that!!! I prefer to see the Excel guys stringing wire,
not swearing at folks back feeding power on them.

Not to worry, Roy. I'll not zap a lineman doing his job.

Matter of fact, they ground dead lines to avoid hazards from fools.
I'll have visible air between genny contacts and grid contact.

My training as an electrical engineer 40 years ago included some work
with thick wire and lab work requiring an overhead gantry crane.
Computers were for grad students.

I'm probably not as smart as you are, but I can assure you that I
won't be zapping any linemen.




I run my gen. the same way and there'll never be any linemen zapped from my
place. Been a aircraft electrician for 40 yrs. and have got enough sense to
energize and deenergize circuits correctly. Have trained both my grown sons
to operate the setup just_exactly_the right way. There are some of us out
here who understand the danger, run our equipment safely, and get a little
tired of the safety fascists.

Well, the guys doing the line repair to the 8kv line in the last storm
certainly didn't ground that line. They repaired the line by removing
the tree that was on it, flipped in a new fuse and POW! right in the
lineman's face. He dryly observed that there was probably another tree
on the line that they should have checked for.

While YOU may do things correctly, I always worry about someone else
that comes along and either buys the property or does it in your
absence. The two that come along fairly regularly on this NG are hooking
up gensets and running welder ciruits. Hooking up gensets should be
intuitive to a "helper" that your wife got to come over when you were on
a trip (or whatever). Welding circuits can be deliberately overbreakered
(as allowed by the NEC) but what happens when you sell the house, get
infirm, or whatever. The NEXT person uses the circuit for something else.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:59:56 GMT, RoyJ wrote:


I think I want a genny
that makes 220 so I can just pull the main breaker, plug the genny
into a welder outlet and power the house, being very selective about
loads of course.

Please don't do that!!! I prefer to see the Excel guys stringing wire,
not swearing at folks back feeding power on them.


Not to worry, Roy. I'll not zap a lineman doing his job.

Matter of fact, they ground dead lines to avoid hazards from fools.
I'll have visible air between genny contacts and grid contact.

My training as an electrical engineer 40 years ago included some work
with thick wire and lab work requiring an overhead gantry crane.
Computers were for grad students.

I'm probably not as smart as you are, but I can assure you that I
won't be zapping any linemen.

"RoyJ" wrote in message
ink.net...
Well, the guys doing the line repair to the 8kv line in the last storm
certainly didn't ground that line. They repaired the line by removing
the tree that was on it, flipped in a new fuse and POW! right in the
lineman's face. He dryly observed that there was probably another tree
on the line that they should have checked for.

While YOU may do things correctly, I always worry about someone else
that comes along and either buys the property or does it in your
absence. The two that come along fairly regularly on this NG are hooking
up gensets and running welder ciruits. Hooking up gensets should be
intuitive to a "helper" that your wife got to come over when you were on
a trip (or whatever). Welding circuits can be deliberately overbreakered
(as allowed by the NEC) but what happens when you sell the house, get
infirm, or whatever. The NEXT person uses the circuit for something else.


Can't speak for Mr. Foreman, but when I move, the generator goes with me.
Along with the switch box and the short wiring run. If I tell you that
there's never going to be a lineman zapped from my place, then there won't
be. Get over it.

In article . net, RoyJ says...

While YOU may do things correctly, I always worry about someone else
that comes along and either buys the property or does it in your
absence. The two that come along fairly regularly on this NG are hooking
up gensets and running welder ciruits. Hooking up gensets should be
intuitive to a "helper" that your wife got to come over when you were on
a trip (or whatever). ...

When things are idiot-proofed, they just make bigger idiots.

Or, see mr. fulton's reply below...

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 02:46:12 GMT, RoyJ wrote:

Well, the guys doing the line repair to the 8kv line in the last storm
certainly didn't ground that line. They repaired the line by removing
the tree that was on it, flipped in a new fuse and POW! right in the
lineman's face. He dryly observed that there was probably another tree
on the line that they should have checked for.

A nit. Linemen treat ungrounded lines as "hot", and routinly work
with hot 8KV lines. Moot point because local gennys must never
backfeed the grid.

While YOU may do things correctly, I always worry about someone else
that comes along and either buys the property or does it in your
absence. The two that come along fairly regularly on this NG are hooking
up gensets and running welder ciruits. Hooking up gensets should be
intuitive to a "helper" that your wife got to come over when you were on
a trip (or whatever). Welding circuits can be deliberately overbreakered
(as allowed by the NEC) but what happens when you sell the house, get
infirm, or whatever. The NEXT person uses the circuit for something else.

Perhaps you should have phrased that more generically, as 'the wife"
or "my (Roy's) wife". Mary is quite able to deal with situations
that would customarily be mine to deal with. The converse is also
true. **** happens. Help is often most abundantly available when
least needed.

YMMV. Feel free to worry.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 02:46:12 GMT, RoyJ wrote:

Well, the guys doing the line repair to the 8kv line in the last
storm certainly didn't ground that line. They repaired the line by
removing the tree that was on it, flipped in a new fuse and POW!
right in the lineman's face. He dryly observed that there was
probably another tree on the line that they should have checked for.

A nit. Linemen treat ungrounded lines as "hot", and routinly work
with hot 8KV lines. Moot point because local gennys must never
backfeed the grid.

While YOU may do things correctly, I always worry about someone else
that comes along and either buys the property or does it in your
absence. The two that come along fairly regularly on this NG are
hooking up gensets and running welder ciruits. Hooking up gensets
should be intuitive to a "helper" that your wife got to come over
when you were on a trip (or whatever). Welding circuits can be
deliberately overbreakered (as allowed by the NEC) but what happens
when you sell the house, get infirm, or whatever. The NEXT person
uses the circuit for something else.

Perhaps you should have phrased that more generically, as 'the wife"
or "my (Roy's) wife". Mary is quite able to deal with situations
that would customarily be mine to deal with. The converse is also
true. **** happens. Help is often most abundantly available when
least needed.

YMMV. Feel free to worry.

A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National Railroad
we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating Rules (UCOR).
This rule book was a distillate of several centuries of global railroading
experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go wrong.
It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL* the reasons for any
given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if said rule was broken one could
selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in (at the
least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job) and at the worst,
jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those rules to
save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just thinking
about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the possible
consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering oversight' kind of
thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by your
betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may just get
someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable dollars.

Regards.
Ken.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:28:51 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:



A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National Railroad
we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating Rules (UCOR).
This rule book was a distillate of several centuries of global railroading
experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go wrong.
It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL* the reasons for any
given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if said rule was broken one could
selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in (at the
least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job) and at the worst,
jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those rules to
save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just thinking
about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the possible
consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering oversight' kind of
thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by your
betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may just get
someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable dollars.


Good advice.

gfulton wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:28:51 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:



A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National
Railroad we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating Rules
(UCOR). This rule book was a distillate of several centuries of
global railroading experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go wrong.
It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL* the reasons
for any given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if said rule was
broken one could selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in (at
the least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job) and
at the worst, jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those
rules to save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just
thinking about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the
possible consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering oversight'
kind of thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by
your betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may
just get someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable
dollars.


Good advice.




I'm trying not to belabor the obvious here, but the "damn good
reason" Mr. Davey espouses is in place for those individuals without
any understanding of electrical power, circuitry, and distribution.
Those who don't know what's hot and what's not. And the people who
write these regulations are certainly not anyone's "betters", they
just understand the dangers to linemen from people without any
understanding of electricity backfeeding the distribution circuits.
I'm not one of them. Once again, a lineman will_never_get zapped
from any current that I backfeed into the circuit. It's not going to
happen. My circuitry will never be operated by anyone but myself or
my sons, who know just exactly the dangers and the correct procedure.
We know what we're doing, and judging from Mr. Foreman's posts, he
does also. Unlike him, I just simply can't stomach safety fascists.
And, yeah, feel free to worry Mr. Davey.

And you feel gree to worry as well.
Best case - you won't be around to see the results of your flaunting of the
regulations.

Ken.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:28:51 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:



A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National
Railroad
we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating Rules
(UCOR).
This rule book was a distillate of several centuries of global
railroading
experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go wrong.
It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL* the reasons for
any
given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if said rule was broken one
could
selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in (at the
least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job) and at the
worst,
jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those rules to
save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just thinking
about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the
possible
consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering oversight' kind
of
thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by your
betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may just get
someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable dollars.


Good advice.




I'm trying not to belabor the obvious here, but the "damn good reason" Mr.
Davey espouses is in place for those individuals without any understanding
of electrical power, circuitry, and distribution. Those who don't know
what's hot and what's not. And the people who write these regulations are
certainly not anyone's "betters", they just understand the dangers to
linemen from people without any understanding of electricity backfeeding the
distribution circuits. I'm not one of them. Once again, a lineman
will_never_get zapped from any current that I backfeed into the circuit.
It's not going to happen. My circuitry will never be operated by anyone but
myself or my sons, who know just exactly the dangers and the correct
procedure. We know what we're doing, and judging from Mr. Foreman's posts,
he does also. Unlike him, I just simply can't stomach safety fascists.
And, yeah, feel free to worry Mr. Davey.

gfulton wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
gfulton wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:28:51 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:



A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National
Railroad we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating
Rules (UCOR). This rule book was a distillate of several
centuries of global railroading experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go
wrong. It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL*
the reasons for any given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if
said rule was broken one could selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in
(at the least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job)
and at the worst, jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those
rules to save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just
thinking about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the
possible consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering
oversight' kind of thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by
your betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may
just get someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable
dollars.


Good advice.




I'm trying not to belabor the obvious here, but the " Those who don't
know what's hot and what's not. And the people who
write these regulations are certainly not anyone's "betters", they
just understand the dangers to linemen from people without any
understanding of electricity backfeeding the distribution circuits.
I'm not one of them. Once again, a lineman will_never_get zapped
from any current that I backfeed into the circuit. It's not going to
happen. My circuitry will never be operated by anyone but myself or
my sons, who know just exactly the dangers and the correct
procedure. We know what we're doing, and judging from Mr.
Foreman's posts, he does also. Unlike him, I just simply can't
stomach safety fascists. And, yeah, feel free to worry Mr. Davey.

And you feel gree to worry as well.
Best case - you won't be around to see the results of your flaunting
of the regulations.

Ken.



Don't hold your breath, tough guy.

I note in your apology post the following words
"damn good
reason" Mr. Davey espouses is in place for those individuals without
any understanding of electrical power, circuitry, and distribution."

My point is if one doesn't have a *perfect* understanding (and I doubt you
do reading your posts) one shouldn't mess with the rules *at all*

Ken. (tough guy?)

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
gfulton wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:28:51 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:



A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National
Railroad we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating Rules
(UCOR). This rule book was a distillate of several centuries of
global railroading experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go wrong.
It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL* the reasons
for any given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if said rule was
broken one could selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in (at
the least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job) and
at the worst, jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those
rules to save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just
thinking about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the
possible consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering oversight'
kind of thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by
your betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may
just get someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable
dollars.


Good advice.




I'm trying not to belabor the obvious here, but the "damn good
reason" Mr. Davey espouses is in place for those individuals without
any understanding of electrical power, circuitry, and distribution.
Those who don't know what's hot and what's not. And the people who
write these regulations are certainly not anyone's "betters", they
just understand the dangers to linemen from people without any
understanding of electricity backfeeding the distribution circuits.
I'm not one of them. Once again, a lineman will_never_get zapped
from any current that I backfeed into the circuit. It's not going to
happen. My circuitry will never be operated by anyone but myself or
my sons, who know just exactly the dangers and the correct procedure.
We know what we're doing, and judging from Mr. Foreman's posts, he
does also. Unlike him, I just simply can't stomach safety fascists.
And, yeah, feel free to worry Mr. Davey.

And you feel gree to worry as well.
Best case - you won't be around to see the results of your flaunting of
the
regulations.

Ken.



Don't hold your breath, tough guy.

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
gfulton wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
gfulton wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:28:51 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:



A couple of lifetimes ago when I worked for the Canadian National
Railroad we had a book.
This book was called "the Uniform Code Of Operating Operating
Rules (UCOR). This rule book was a distillate of several
centuries of global railroading experience.
In theory, if all the rules were adhered to nothing could go
wrong. It was (unofficially) understood that if one knew *ALL*
the reasons for any given rule and *ALL* that could go wrong if
said rule was broken one could selectively break it.
Any defect in your reasoning that led to a disaster resulted in
(at the least) brownie points (get enough and it was bye bye job)
and at the worst, jail time.
When I was a greenhorn someone decided to break one of of those
rules to save a couple of seconds.
Rather than seem officious I went along with this.
The result was I almost got six people killed.
It was so close that, to this day, I break out in a sweat just
thinking about it.
And it happened more than thirty years ago!

The moral?
Before you break/bend the rules think long and hard about ALL the
possible consequences.
This is not a 'the towers fell because of an engineering
oversight' kind of thing.
It is a 'the rule was there for a damn good reason' worked out by
your betters.
You might just get away with a non-code installation and you may
just get someone killed, all for the saving of a few miserable
dollars.


Good advice.




I'm trying not to belabor the obvious here, but the " Those who
don't
know what's hot and what's not. And the people who
write these regulations are certainly not anyone's "betters", they
just understand the dangers to linemen from people without any
understanding of electricity backfeeding the distribution circuits.
I'm not one of them. Once again, a lineman will_never_get zapped
from any current that I backfeed into the circuit. It's not going to
happen. My circuitry will never be operated by anyone but myself or
my sons, who know just exactly the dangers and the correct
procedure. We know what we're doing, and judging from Mr.
Foreman's posts, he does also. Unlike him, I just simply can't
stomach safety fascists. And, yeah, feel free to worry Mr. Davey.

And you feel gree to worry as well.
Best case - you won't be around to see the results of your flaunting
of the regulations.

Ken.



Don't hold your breath, tough guy.

I note in your apology post the following words
"damn good
reason" Mr. Davey espouses is in place for those individuals without
any understanding of electrical power, circuitry, and distribution."

My point is if one doesn't have a *perfect* understanding (and I doubt you
do reading your posts) one shouldn't mess with the rules *at all*

Ken. (tough guy?)



Apology? Worked as youth doing electrical work in a production plant with
440 3 phase and the control circuits for same. In the 35 yrs. since have
been an aircraft electrician on Lockheed L-1011's, B747's, B707's, DC-6's,
767, Airbus, etc. etc. Been badly shocked several times when someone I
worked with didn't see the "do not activate" placard I placed plain view in
the cockpit and pushed in circuit breakers. 400 cycle, 220 volt hurts like
a bitch. I can't imagine anyone more careful than myself about exposing a
person to a hot circuit. It will_not_happen to any lineman working on my
outage. Just exactly which part of my post led you to believe that I don't
have an understanding of power distribution? "Tough guy" is a derogatory
term used here on the flight line when you run across a particularly
obnoxious know-it-all. Most people with any sense grow out of that stage.

On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 11:17:49 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

It occurred to me today (now that there's a genny in my truck) that
powering a whole house with 220 with or without transfer switch
approved by "my betters" is probably not a good approach for
practical reasons.

Most small gensets, with some exceptions, have current limit on each
110-volt phase. Given a 5 KW genny, you must use 5 KW of 220, or 2.5
KW on each 110. But there's no telling how the key loads (furnace,
freezer, fridge, a few lights, maybe a TV and/or a 'puter) would be
distributed between the two phases and certainly no guarantee that
they'd be anywhere near balanced.

12-gage drop cords w/ powerstrips solve that because then I know
exactly how loads are distributed and balanced. I'll need to make
a transfer block for the furnace if it's hardwired, but it might even
have a plug. Matter of fact, I think it does though it's been a
while since I looked at it. If it doesn't have a plug, it certainly
could have and will have.

I've had some interesting conversation about gennies with a neighbor
at the lake in the last couple of days He has a bidness rewinding
big 3phase irrigation motors, also sells and repairs gennys. That
which might be a good genny for a building contractor (Honda) may not
be a good genny for reserve power backup. He cited reasons: seen
smaller Hondas unable to pick up even a furnace motor load.

I was skeptical about that for a bit, but after some thought it is
plausible. Contractor tools mostly use series-wound universal motors
for light weight, low-end torque and often variable speed.
Universal motors don't have nearly the startup surge that induction
motors have, which is often 10X rated run current. I noted that my
4-amp freezer did not like running on 170 feet of #16 extension cord;
it overheated while trying to start and being unable to do so. #16 is
quite ample for 4 amps, but it couldn't hack the start surge. The
freezer ran great when I replaced the cord with 12-gage.

He said that Honda uses electronic voltage regulation while the Winco
just excites the field with a bridge rectifier. Elex can be designed
to do the job, but they're often used to cut cost: put an inferior
generator inside a feedback loop. That can work well as long as
things are within design parameters, but things go to hell fast when
outside the envelope. Cited example: run out of gas while under
load. Cited typical result: fried elex. New elex: $300. I
could fix the elex under normal condx, but it would be a bit tough
doing it by flashlight (even Luxeon flashlight) with no instruments
save those that are battery-powered and only a butane-powered soldern'
ahrn. Bridge rectifiers can fail too, but they're **** simple to
replace. I have several of those little brix in my goodiebox.

The genny now in my truck is a Winco, made by a company in MN that
has been making gennies since 1927. There's another MN company that
mades good gennies too, in Fridley 2 miles from me: Onan. They're
premium where cost is no object: military, industrial, marine and
RV. Well beyond my need and budget. Onan is now owned by Cummins,
has been for a few years now.

Gunner, I did note your suggestion about getting an Onan genny out of
an RV.
Some issues I had with that:
-don't know whether it has 10 hours or 1000
-don't know if it's been maintained or not
-a lot of such stuff get "sold" to the insurance company and then
"junked". Ya gotta know the RV dealer to know when and where
to go dumpsterdiving.

Roy, you can now park your worry beads on this one. The linemen of
MN will be safe from Foremanian folly not codified by my betters.