Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.

But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.

Jerks.

Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
| Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
| they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
| buggering the heads.
|
| I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
| and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
| so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
| screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
| found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
| Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
| crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.
|
| But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
| that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.
|
| Jerks.

Jerks, was that _your_ autosig?

Check carefully the brands sold at Sears. Sears brand is the standard
imported crap, while Craftsman has become standard imported, but only
slightly better. I quit shopping at Sears a long time ago for tools. I can
go to my local tool store or HF and buy Pittsburgh (sp?) or CK tools which
are decent for the money. I wanted to waste my money, Sears would surely be
the place to go. They seem to feel like HF is their direct competitor!

"carl mciver" wrote in message
nk.net...
Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
| Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
| they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
| buggering the heads.
|
| But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
| that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.
|

go to my local tool store or HF and buy Pittsburgh (sp?) or CK tools which
are decent for the money. I wanted to waste my money, Sears would surely
be
the place to go. They seem to feel like HF is their direct competitor!


You mean HF is NOT their direct competitor ???? There is a reason
their tools (especially the power stuff) has been called "crapsman" for
a long time. Do a search on "Craftsman Routers" and see what kind
of comments you find !! ;-)

mikey

"Mike Fields" wrote in message
news

"carl mciver" wrote in message
nk.net...
Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
| Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
| they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
| buggering the heads.
|
| But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
| that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.
|

go to my local tool store or HF and buy Pittsburgh (sp?) or CK tools
which
are decent for the money. I wanted to waste my money, Sears would surely
be
the place to go. They seem to feel like HF is their direct competitor!


You mean HF is NOT their direct competitor ???? There is a reason
their tools (especially the power stuff) has been called "crapsman" for
a long time. Do a search on "Craftsman Routers" and see what kind
of comments you find !! ;-)

mikey

Their power tools are junk, but are the Pittsburgh wrenches and sockets
really comparable to Craftsman?
For a lot of tools and products I do agree that what you get at Sears or
Home Depot, especially from no name imported brands, has been HF quality or
less for a long time. Only difference is you pay retail prices for it.

Those Blue/Clear handled tools are Companion brand. Basically import
crap sold at Sears. I use the Black handled ergo grip drivers a LOT and
they are worth the money, I did manage to break one but it wasn't being
used as a screwdriver at the time.....

Most of the current Craftsman line is now Stanley tool made. With some
being S&K.
Air tools are imports from the same outfit that makes 90 percent of
Snap-On air tools. Even CP and IR are over 90 percent imports now, they
just assemble some tools in Carolina.




"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.

But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.

Jerks.




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Jim Stewart wrote:

Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.

But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.

Jerks.
I think you would be better off with the screw driver handles that
hold hex inserts. Then buy a box of inserts. Wear them out (they are tough)
and just buy some inserts.

Philips are common to the building trades and are packaged in various volumes.
Dry wall screws are just some uses...

Just my opinion based on various fractured screw driver heads - seems to be
a powered composite to make the Philips... hum. Bad process maybe.

I have used the trade type for some time now. Put them in screw guns and
even battery drills.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

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lionslair at consolidated dot net wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:

Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.

But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.

Jerks.

I think you would be better off with the screw driver handles that
hold hex inserts. Then buy a box of inserts. Wear them out (they are
tough)
and just buy some inserts.

Your point is well taken and I use inserts alot
at home. The problem is that I'm working with
18-19 year old kids and they don't see the big
picture. We use #1 tips to assemble one product
with power screwdrivers. We use #2 screws on
another product that has to be assembled with
hand screwdrivers. If I give them #2 inserts,
they will put them in the power screwdrivers and
I'll have more problems.

I know it's a stupid reason, but I gotta work
with what I've got.

Philips are common to the building trades and are packaged in various
volumes.
Dry wall screws are just some uses...

Just my opinion based on various fractured screw driver heads - seems to be
a powered composite to make the Philips... hum. Bad process maybe.

I have used the trade type for some time now. Put them in screw guns and
even battery drills.

Martin

Your point is well taken and I use inserts alot
at home. The problem is that I'm working with
18-19 year old kids and they don't see the big
picture. We use #1 tips to assemble one product
with power screwdrivers. We use #2 screws on
another product that has to be assembled with
hand screwdrivers. If I give them #2 inserts,
they will put them in the power screwdrivers and
I'll have more problems.

I know it's a stupid reason, but I gotta work
with what I've got.


Not true. Hire someone who has a clue. Isn't it true that you get what you
pay for, wouldn't it also be true in hiring employees, not just tooling?
Just my opinion, and possible rant.
Lane

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

The problem is that I'm working with
18-19 year old kids and they don't see
the big picture.

Excuse me for saying so, but it sounds like you have more of an
instructional problem (and perhaps, a disciplinary one also) than a tooling
problem. I'd rather opt to teach the children to do the job correctly, than
trick them into doing it correctly by limiting their tooling choices.

Remember: at some point, they will be on their own and having to make their
own decisions. Guide them now and rest assured that they will make the right
choices later on. On the other hand, if they're only doing the job correctly
now because of your artificial constraints, what will happen once they no
longer have you imposing those constraints upon them?

Regards,
Michael

DeepDiver wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

The problem is that I'm working with
18-19 year old kids and they don't see
the big picture.


Excuse me for saying so, but it sounds like you have more of an
instructional problem (and perhaps, a disciplinary one also) than a tooling
problem. I'd rather opt to teach the children to do the job correctly, than
trick them into doing it correctly by limiting their tooling choices.

Remember: at some point, they will be on their own and having to make their
own decisions. Guide them now and rest assured that they will make the right
choices later on. On the other hand, if they're only doing the job correctly
now because of your artificial constraints, what will happen once they no
longer have you imposing those constraints upon them?

Believe me, I'm trying. But I can't
be watching them every minute and I've
got too much invested in them to let
them go.

They are good kids. They keep the
stockroom in order and they don't steal
from me or argue with me. I'm teaching
them and they are learning. They are
the best I've found so far and they
know that the job beats mucking out the
fat fryer at Burger King.

They are good kids. They keep the
stockroom in order and they don't steal
from me or argue with me. I'm teaching
them and they are learning. They are
the best I've found so far and they
know that the job beats mucking out the
fat fryer at Burger King.


Nobody starts out knowing it all. You sound like you have some potentially
good material there to mold and work with. In today's world, that is not
the norm. Many of today's young people are just eaten up with apathy
........... the "I don't give a ****" approach.

And they mean it!

Steve

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
DeepDiver wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

The problem is that I'm working with
18-19 year old kids and they don't see
the big picture.


Excuse me for saying so, but it sounds like you have more of an
instructional problem (and perhaps, a disciplinary one also) than a
tooling problem. I'd rather opt to teach the children to do the job
correctly, than trick them into doing it correctly by limiting their
tooling choices.

Remember: at some point, they will be on their own and having to make
their own decisions. Guide them now and rest assured that they will make
the right choices later on. On the other hand, if they're only doing the
job correctly now because of your artificial constraints, what will
happen once they no longer have you imposing those constraints upon them?

Believe me, I'm trying. But I can't
be watching them every minute and I've
got too much invested in them to let
them go.


When I first read you post, I thought you were talking about your own
children, not employees. That said, the priciples of mentoring and managing
are the same: teach, reward, dicipline, and punish.

Tell them how you want it done, period: no exceptions. For those who do it
right, reward them with praise, a raise, and/or a bonus (doesn't have to be
cash: it could be a hour off early on Friday, your treating them to lunch,
movie tickets, etc.). For those who do it wrong, discipline with some
one-on-one performance reviews. If they still don't learn, then apply
punishment (e.g., deduct the cost of their damage from their paycheck). If
ultimately, an employee is unwilling to do it the right way, then I'd fire
him because there is a bigger problem involved than just your buggered
screws.

Simply lay down the rules, explain the consequences, and then stick to your
guns. (This, btw, is perhaps the greatest failing of parents and employers
alike: they either don't make the rules and consequences clear and
well-defined, or they fail to enforce them.) Your employees, like children,
will be happy knowing exactly what is expected of them in their jobs, you
will have your management duties clearly outlined so you'll never have to
wonder how to handle a problem situation, and you will ultimately benefit
from a well-run shop.

And remember: always praise in public, and reprimand in private!

Regards,
Michael

In article ,
"Steve W." wrote:

Those Blue/Clear handled tools are Companion brand. Basically import
crap sold at Sears. I use the Black handled ergo grip drivers a LOT and
they are worth the money, I did manage to break one but it wasn't being
used as a screwdriver at the time.....

Maybe some Companion stuff is Blue/Clear, but so is Craftsman. I have a
'sand cast looking tip' #2 Blue/Clear Phillips right here on my desk...
a number 41295, and plainly marked 'Made In USA' right on it.

It's a warranty replacement, and I haven't actually used it yet.
However, after reading this thread, tried it on for fit in a couple of
screws close at hand... fit feels a lot better than it looks, to be
honest.

At least they seem to be plating their screwdrivers again.

Erik

On Wed, 11 May 2005 14:23:48 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:
snip
I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.
snip
This seems to be a worldwide problem for all products. Value
analysis is running amok. Sears lost their once dominant
retailing position because of the continual slow slide in their
product quality in tools, paint and clothing. The same thing is
true of autos made by General Motors and Ford.

In the short term, a little additional profit may be made by
imperceptible cuts in quality, service and innovation, but in the
long term, it is a sure-fire receipt for disaster for the company
and the long-term employees. For the short-term company
executives and their hedge-fund cohorts it is a quick buck, and
the devil take the hindmost.

In article ,
"Steve W." wrote:

Air tools are imports from the same outfit that makes 90 percent of
Snap-On air tools.

Huh?

Snap-On makes their own air tools and are not currently vending
out to anyone.

Blue Point branded is a different story, but then, Blue Point is
not Snap-On.

In article , DeepDiver says...

And remember: always praise in public, and reprimand in private!

Amazing how many supervisors simply can *not* get that
one right!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 12 May 2005 09:03:45 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , DeepDiver says...

And remember: always praise in public, and reprimand in private!

Amazing how many supervisors simply can *not* get that
one right!

Yup. That's something a very early boss of mine taught me -
great guy. Told me "If your boss doesn't do that, find a better boss".

This is the same guy whose idea of a job interview was to hand me
a part and a micrometer, and say "measure this". I held it right,
used the slip-clutch to tighten it, and gave him the answer down
to tenths. "OK, great. I start you out at (number), next week
that'll either double or I'll be looking for someone else."

Later, he set my hourly wage to be double my grade point average.
Theory being, I could work as much as I wanted, but if my grades
started to suffer, my pay would reflect that. As this was the
'80s, and I was a college student, it paid pretty damn good to
keep my grades up, so I did. The right kind of motivation for
the right reasons, there. Didn't hurt that we were building
airplane components, so it was interesting work.

Dave Hinz

On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:13:17 -0700, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


Your point is well taken and I use inserts alot
at home. The problem is that I'm working with
18-19 year old kids and they don't see the big
picture. We use #1 tips to assemble one product
with power screwdrivers. We use #2 screws on
another product that has to be assembled with
hand screwdrivers. If I give them #2 inserts,
they will put them in the power screwdrivers and
I'll have more problems.

I know it's a stupid reason, but I gotta work
with what I've got.


Not true. Hire someone who has a clue. Isn't it true that you get what you
pay for, wouldn't it also be true in hiring employees, not just tooling?
Just my opinion, and possible rant.
Lane

Based on my experience in manufacturing..at that age..you are
suggesting he hire illegal aliens, not the average mind numbed
American kid.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Thu, 12 May 2005 06:00:07 GMT, the renowned "DeepDiver"
wrote:

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...


When I first read you post, I thought you were talking about your own
children, not employees. That said, the priciples of mentoring and managing
are the same: teach, reward, dicipline, and punish.

Tell them how you want it done, period: no exceptions. For those who do it
right, reward them with praise, a raise, and/or a bonus (doesn't have to be
cash: it could be a hour off early on Friday, your treating them to lunch,
movie tickets, etc.). For those who do it wrong, discipline with some
one-on-one performance reviews. If they still don't learn, then apply
punishment (e.g., deduct the cost of their damage from their paycheck). If
ultimately, an employee is unwilling to do it the right way, then I'd fire
him because there is a bigger problem involved than just your buggered
screws.

Simply lay down the rules, explain the consequences, and then stick to your
guns. (This, btw, is perhaps the greatest failing of parents and employers
alike: they either don't make the rules and consequences clear and
well-defined, or they fail to enforce them.) Your employees, like children,
will be happy knowing exactly what is expected of them in their jobs, you
will have your management duties clearly outlined so you'll never have to
wonder how to handle a problem situation, and you will ultimately benefit
from a well-run shop.

And remember: always praise in public, and reprimand in private!

Regards,
Michael

And if you're in a country where employees have strong rights (UK,
Europe, Canada, Israel, etc.) keep written records of the reprimands
and be careful that the praise is factual and deserved.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Sorry to disagree, but if you don't want to pay the higher price for the
good stuff then how can you fault them for offering the cheap stuff? Same
arguement for HF and Chinese lathes and stuff. They are filling a market
need. People seem to be willing to accept the inferior stuff because it's
got the right price on it.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.

But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.

Jerks.


#! rnews 1914
Xref: xyzzy comp.sys.mac.system:524105
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Path: xyzzy!nntp
From: James Glidewell
Subject: Partitions?
In-Reply-To:
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Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:59:52 GMT

nospam wrote:
In article , David Magda
wrote:


I would think that putting swap files on a separate disk would help
things. Less disk contention and all that.


on an entirely seperate harddrive it may have a beneficial effect
because you can have simultaneous read/write to different drives.

But only if you actually swap. And if you do, the performance penalty
is so great compared to not swapping that any difference would be
almost impossible to discern.

If you are seeing significant "spinning beach ball" time, then going
to a separate swap drive might reduce the amount of time you spend
staring at the beach ball by 10% or so. But increasing the memory
can come close to eliminating it completely (and/or reducing the
frequency). Sometimes, that isn't an option, due to budget or
hardware, but the number of cases where a swap drive is a better
solution than memory is pretty darned small.

putting the swap on a second partition of the *same* drive is stupid.

In a word, yes.

"Gunner" wrote in message

Not true. Hire someone who has a clue. Isn't it true that you get what you
pay for, wouldn't it also be true in hiring employees, not just tooling?
Just my opinion, and possible rant.
Lane

Based on my experience in manufacturing..at that age..you are
suggesting he hire illegal aliens, not the average mind numbed
American kid.

Gunner


Illegal aliens? Where did that come from? I wasn't even close to suggesting
that.

Lane

In article ,
Ignoramus18353 wrote:

Snap-On makes their own air tools and are not currently vending
out to anyone.

I recently sold a used Snap-On pneumatic motor that was made by
Ingersoll Rand.

Exactly what type of "air tool" is this pneumatic motor, and how
old is it?

Excellent discussion and I agree with each point.

Too bad that I have never had a single boss that has ever done
everything that you have discussed...and I have had many bosses.

A good boss is as hard to find as a good woman is.

Being a good boss is even harder.

In my opinion if one faithfully and completely implements what Michael
has covered, you will have employees that will follow your lead through
hell.

TMT

In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:
DeepDiver wrote:

[ ... ]

Remember: at some point, they will be on their own and having to make their
own decisions. Guide them now and rest assured that they will make the right
choices later on. On the other hand, if they're only doing the job correctly
now because of your artificial constraints, what will happen once they no
longer have you imposing those constraints upon them?

Believe me, I'm trying. But I can't
be watching them every minute and I've
got too much invested in them to let
them go.

They are good kids. They keep the
stockroom in order and they don't steal
from me or argue with me. I'm teaching
them and they are learning. They are
the best I've found so far and they
know that the job beats mucking out the
fat fryer at Burger King.

So -- take the time to *show* them how to tell by feel whether
it is the right size screwdriver or not.

First -- explain to them that usually, with Phillips, the right
size screwdriver *looks* too big.

Then show them how the right and wrong screwdrivers *feel* in the
screw head. There is a difference. You know it. Can you explain it to
them so they will?

Next -- *show* them the problems which arise from using the wrong
size screwdriver. The rounded out sockets -- the worn tips which are
more likely to inflict the same damage on the next screw head.

And -- when one of them screws up -- give them the task of
fixing it.

I know that at that age, *I* could have benefited from being
shown how to tell. And back then, I kept coming up with Reed & Prince
screws and tips to make things more complex.

(Of course, now, you can hit the offset Phillips, the Tri-wings,
the secure variants of Allen and Torx, and lord only knows what else. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 12 May 2005 13:10:40 -0700, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message

Not true. Hire someone who has a clue. Isn't it true that you get what you
pay for, wouldn't it also be true in hiring employees, not just tooling?
Just my opinion, and possible rant.
Lane

Based on my experience in manufacturing..at that age..you are
suggesting he hire illegal aliens, not the average mind numbed
American kid.

Gunner


Illegal aliens? Where did that come from? I wasn't even close to suggesting
that.

Lane


Perhaps I didnt make myself clear. Its been my experience that illegal
aliens as a group, are harder working, less willing to bitch, whimper
and tend to be smarter than most modern kids

Gunner

"Veterans, and anyone sensible, take cover when there's incoming.
A cloud of testosterone makes a **** poor flack shield."
Offbreed

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 May 2005 13:10:40 -0700, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message

Not true. Hire someone who has a clue. Isn't it true that you get what
you
pay for, wouldn't it also be true in hiring employees, not just
tooling?
Just my opinion, and possible rant.
Lane

Based on my experience in manufacturing..at that age..you are
suggesting he hire illegal aliens, not the average mind numbed
American kid.

Gunner


Illegal aliens? Where did that come from? I wasn't even close to
suggesting
that.

Lane


Perhaps I didnt make myself clear. Its been my experience that illegal
aliens as a group, are harder working, less willing to bitch, whimper
and tend to be smarter than most modern kids


That's not too difficult!

"lionslair at consolidated dot net" "lionslair at consolidated dot net"
wrote in message ...
Jim Stewart wrote:

Friday I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

I figured I'd swing by swing by Sears on Saturday
and get another handfull of #2 philips screwdrivers
so there would be no excuses. I've bought the
screwdrivers with blue/clear handles for years and
found that they last a long time. Well, I get to
Sears and look at them and what used to be a nice
crisp tip now looks like a poor sand casting.

But not to worry, Craftsman now has a "Pro" screwdriver
that has a nice crisp tip and costs $3 more.

Jerks.
I think you would be better off with the screw driver handles that
hold hex inserts. Then buy a box of inserts. Wear them out (they are
tough)
and just buy some inserts.

Philips are common to the building trades and are packaged in various
volumes.
Dry wall screws are just some uses...

Just my opinion based on various fractured screw driver heads - seems to
be
a powered composite to make the Philips... hum. Bad process maybe.

I have had Klein Philips heads last for years. Insert type screwdrivers are
OK but definitely wouldn't be my first choice due to the thicker barrel,
etc. Klein is quite popular in the electrical trade.
http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/85075.html

snip
I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.
=============
Are you sure they were Phillips and not Posidrive screws?

While the term "Phillips" is still widely used, Posis are
generally used in a production environment. Major change is the
tip of the Posidrive is "dubbed" off. A real Phillips driver
will tend to strip a posi screw head because it can't seat deep
enough. Look to see if there is an "X" across the cruciform of
the "Phillips" if there is you have posi screws and need posi
drivers. You may also want to evaluate using some of the newer
driver styles. The fasteners cost slightly more, but stripping
and camouts are largely eliminated. Also provides some tamper
protection.

GmcD

GmcD

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

I laid into the kids doing assembly because
they kept using #1 philips drivers on #2 screws and
buggering the heads.

=============
Are you sure they were Phillips and not Posidrive screws?

While the term "Phillips" is still widely used, Posis are
generally used in a production environment. Major change is the
tip of the Posidrive is "dubbed" off. A real Phillips driver
will tend to strip a posi screw head because it can't seat deep
enough. Look to see if there is an "X" across the cruciform of
the "Phillips" if there is you have posi screws and need posi
drivers. You may also want to evaluate using some of the newer
driver styles. The fasteners cost slightly more, but stripping
and camouts are largely eliminated. Also provides some tamper
protection.

GmcD

GmcD
Only "dubbed off" end I have seen were only Phillips, the pointier ones
were Reed Prince. So you are saying Posi Drive are shorter?

George V.

snip
=============
Are you sure they were Phillips and not Posidrive screws?
Only "dubbed off" end I have seen were only Phillips, the pointier ones
were Reed Prince. So you are saying Posi Drive are shorter?
George V.
==============
This is not a unique problem and is far more frequent in assembly
operations than it should be.

Thre are three common cruciform drives in common use.

Reed & Prince with very thin "wings" and a long sharp point --
commonly used in the US only on golf club face inserts.

Phillips with slightly thicker wings and a blunter point that
still is sharp although may be slightly rounded. Sides of the
wings tend to be slightly tapered increasing tendency to cam out.
Generally no marks on top of screw other than cruciform.

Posidrive with thick wings, blunt point that is dubbed off more
or less square on end. Top of screw will generally have light
"x" between the cruciform drive slots. sides of cruciform are
parallel and have no tendency to cam out.

see http://www.justbrits.com/pozi/pozidriv.html

Given the problems you seem to be having, you may wish to
consider another head/driver style such as Robertson/Skrulox.
see http://www.robertsonscrew.com/

If you have more than minimal parts volume you can most likely
realize significant savings in scrap/rework and labor by
contacting a reputable fastener distributor. They can evaluate
your needs and provide the lowest overall cost fasteners. You
may even save on worksman comp by eliminating stab and repetative
stress [carpel tunnel] injuries.

Hope this helps.

GmcD

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

=============
Are you sure they were Phillips and not Posidrive screws?

Only "dubbed off" end I have seen were only Phillips, the pointier ones
were Reed Prince. So you are saying Posi Drive are shorter?
George V.

==============
This is not a unique problem and is far more frequent in assembly
operations than it should be.

Thre are three common cruciform drives in common use.

Reed & Prince with very thin "wings" and a long sharp point --
commonly used in the US only on golf club face inserts.

Phillips with slightly thicker wings and a blunter point that
still is sharp although may be slightly rounded. Sides of the
wings tend to be slightly tapered increasing tendency to cam out.
Generally no marks on top of screw other than cruciform.

Posidrive with thick wings, blunt point that is dubbed off more
or less square on end. Top of screw will generally have light
"x" between the cruciform drive slots. sides of cruciform are
parallel and have no tendency to cam out.

see http://www.justbrits.com/pozi/pozidriv.html

Given the problems you seem to be having, you may wish to
consider another head/driver style such as Robertson/Skrulox.
see http://www.robertsonscrew.com/

If you have more than minimal parts volume you can most likely
realize significant savings in scrap/rework and labor by
contacting a reputable fastener distributor. They can evaluate
your needs and provide the lowest overall cost fasteners. You
may even save on worksman comp by eliminating stab and repetative
stress [carpel tunnel] injuries.

Hope this helps.

GmcD
Personally I don't have any problem with cross point drivers. The OP
seems to be having the problem with the "kids" not knowing the
difference though. The real confusion in the US seems to come from the
fact that many manufactureres, Craftsman as well but not lately, include
RP drivers in their common driver sets. And to the common layman, a
cross point driver is always a Phillips. My solutio (not being a golfer)
is to "lose" any RP drivers that find their way into my toolbox or near
vicinity. Works for me.

George V.

On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:31:45 -0700, F George McDuffee wrote:

Reed & Prince with very thin "wings" and a long sharp point --
commonly used in the US only on golf club face inserts.

Ahhh, _that_ explains why my grandfather's tools included one of
these. Thank you, I'd been wondering.

R&P are also common on older (WW-II vintage) military aircraft.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
snip
Reed & Prince with very thin "wings" and a long sharp point --
commonly used in the US only on golf club face inserts.

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:31:45 -0700, F George McDuffee
wrote:

Reed & Prince with very thin "wings" and a long sharp point --
commonly used in the US only on golf club face inserts.

Ahhh, _that_ explains why my grandfather's tools included one of
these. Thank you, I'd been wondering.

RP is (was?) widely used on furniture as well, at least when furniture
was made in the US.