My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.

On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.





It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

On 3/2/2014 11:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:
--
Bobby G.

Possibly, might help. Since it's possible
to shock oneself from a hot wire through
the body, to ground under your feet.
Not wicked expensive, and might help.

Dry wood such as plywood can also help.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 3/2/2014 11:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.

When I did heating and AC, I learned to use two
wrenches, so as to concentrate the torque in a
small area. Also good to know where is the gas
shut off, for moments like this. Glad the gas guys
arrived in time. Most fire department guys know
how to shut off natural gas.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 3/3/2014 6:45 AM, philo wrote:
On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

Less likely to have a current path to
ground through your legs and feetsies.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, March 3, 2014 7:37:04 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/2/2014 11:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer

for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said

the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow

yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have

dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial the

last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were

located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he

fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,

either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they

rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.



--

Bobby G.



When I did heating and AC, I learned to use two

wrenches, so as to concentrate the torque in a

small area. Also good to know where is the gas

shut off, for moments like this. Glad the gas guys

arrived in time. Most fire department guys know

how to shut off natural gas.



There should have been a shut-off valve right before
the flex pipe at the dryer.

Rubber mat at the panel can't hurt. How much good it
does depends on how good of an insulator it actually is,
what material it's really made of, etc.

Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 3/3/2014 6:45 AM, philo wrote:
On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

Less likely to have a current path to
ground through your legs and feetsies.

Most shoes are pretty good insulators at 120V which is the most you
would get to ground (in the US) anyway. Since the panel enclosure is
grounded and there are terminals of both phases (polarity technically)
in the panel, you have a much better chance of getting across 120V or
even 240V in the panel itself. This is of course where the old "one
hand" idea came from, but as we all know in today's overstuffed panels
that's simply not viable.

The two most important safety things you can do are to make sure you
have good footing i.e. you aren't climbing on junk to get to the panel,
and that you have good lighting so you can clearly see inside the panel
to avoid contact with exposed terminals and bus bars.

On Monday, March 3, 2014 9:28:39 AM UTC-5, Pete C. wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:



On 3/3/2014 6:45 AM, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:

My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick

rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the

panel

would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.



It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but

it's not likely to make anything safer.



Less likely to have a current path to

ground through your legs and feetsies.



Most shoes are pretty good insulators at 120V which is the most you

would get to ground (in the US) anyway. Since the panel enclosure is

grounded and there are terminals of both phases (polarity technically)

in the panel, you have a much better chance of getting across 120V or

even 240V in the panel itself. This is of course where the old "one

hand" idea came from, but as we all know in today's overstuffed panels

that's simply not viable.



The two most important safety things you can do are to make sure you

have good footing i.e. you aren't climbing on junk to get to the panel,

and that you have good lighting so you can clearly see inside the panel

to avoid contact with exposed terminals and bus bars.

I like those panels that they use in Canada that you see on
the Holmes TV shows. They use a separate cover for the area at
and above the main breaker. Without removing that, nothing below
it that you could come in contact with is energized with the main
open. Even with a regular panel, with the main off, it's pretty
hard to contact the incoming service wires as you're usually not
doing anything near that and if you are, well you just need to know
what you;re doing and be careful. Personally, I'm most worried
when I'm taking off the panel cover on one where you haven't been
before. You don't know what someone may have done inside there, so I'm
always careful to take the panel straight off, not let it tip back
inside. My worst fear is the panel comes off, a corner dips back
inside, touches something, and there you are, with the steel panel
in both hands, standing on a concrete floor.

On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:03:30 -0700, Robert Green
wrote:

My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires
aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

...snip...

Most damage is done arm to arm, across the heart. Some from top to bottom,
but not quite as much.

Rubber mat is ok, but double layers of rubber gloves are better. Since
you're putting finger in there.

Why double layer? Talk to the ex-utilities employees that are on
disability for 'hurrying' a repair and NOT checking for pinhole leaks in
their gloves and then working on HOT hi-tension wires where the discharge
almost killed them.

Turn it OFF first.

Plus don't assume anything is off. use one of those cheap neon indicators.
You hold one end, or ground it, and probe around first.

On 3/2/2014 11:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.



Certainly it could help in some circumstances although I doubt that any
home electrical panel would need such safeguards (assuming that anybody
tinkering with the panel isn't a total arse). But if you must then you
might as well buy the real thing and not take chances that your choice
won't do the job:
http://www.highvoltagesupplies.com/s...anket-1086.cfm

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 07:35:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Dry wood such as plywood can also help.

Aren't wooden ladders used by electricians? I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.

On 3/3/2014 2:15 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 07:35:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Dry wood such as plywood can also help.

Aren't wooden ladders used by electricians? I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.


Primarily, fiberglass ladders are used. Wood ladders suck, in general,
and metal ladders are forbidden by OSHA. :-)

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xb5itwx82cx0wh@ajm...
On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:03:30 -0700, Robert Green
wrote:

My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a
little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires
aside to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

...snip...

Most damage is done arm to arm, across the heart. Some from top to bottom,
but not quite as much.

Rubber mat is ok, but double layers of rubber gloves are better. Since
you're putting finger in there.

Why double layer? Talk to the ex-utilities employees that are on
disability for 'hurrying' a repair and NOT checking for pinhole leaks in
their gloves and then working on HOT hi-tension wires where the discharge
almost killed them.

Ah yes, been there, done that with mixing 100 gallon vats of color film
developing chemicals. Now I am a great fan of nitrile surgical gloves under
the gauntlet style rubber outer glove for noxious chemical work. But as
arthritic as my hands have become, I can't imagine being able to do any sort
of fine mechanical work "gloved up" like that. I've been looking at OSHA
rules and regs to see if they have a standard for rubber insulating devices
and they have nothing BUT standards:

Insulating equipment with any of the following defects may not be used:
1910.137(b)(2)(iii)(A)
A hole, tear, puncture, or cut;

To which I say "duh, really?"

Turn it OFF first.

Agreed. That's another interesting point. The A/C installers didn't kill
the main breaker when they installed a new 240VAC breaker for the outside
compressor. I was concerned about doing controlled shutdowns on my PCs but
they said it wasn't an issue. Obviously it's possible to install new
breakers without using the main 100A breaker or the service disconnect.

Plus don't assume anything is off. use one of those cheap neon indicators.
You hold one end, or ground it, and probe around first.

Got a very nice one with an adjustable sensitivity setting thanks to
Gfretwell's recommendation. Stuck some neo mags on it and now it lives
attached to the cover door of the panel. I figured if I made the circuit
box its home base I would never be tempted to proceed without it. Tossed my
Radio Shack Mircronta neon voltage tester because it was a piece of junk.

Thanks for your input, Robert.

--
Bobby G.

"philo " wrote in message
...
On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:

My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

stuff snipped

It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

At least it would make for more comfortable standing when working on the
panel. The issue seems to be the choice of mats - some types of material
are better insulators than others. The search continues.

--
Bobby G.

No one has asked what the added mat would be covering. In my house, it would be on top of carpeting with an underpad above a wood floor. Adddint the rubber mat would not have any effect unless I was working on voltages of several thousand volts. Double rubber gloves is good, long-sleeved shirts to cover the arms up to the gloves also important.

On 3/3/2014 6:15 PM, wrote:
No one has asked what the added mat would be covering. In my house, it would be on top of carpeting with an underpad above a wood floor. Adddint the rubber mat would not have any effect unless I was working on voltages of several thousand volts. Double rubber gloves is good, long-sleeved shirts to cover the arms up to the gloves also important.

You know, that was negligent of us. Me,
especially. Thanks for point that out.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 3/3/2014 3:15 PM, Oren wrote:
Aren't wooden ladders used by electricians? I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.


You need to get on a wooden high horse?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 3/3/2014 5:18 PM, Robert Green wrote:
At least it would make for more comfortable standing when working on the
panel. The issue seems to be the choice of mats - some types of material
are better insulators than others. The search continues.

--
Bobby G.

I put a carpet sample on the cement floor
in front of a circuit panel box, one time.
Much more comfortable feetsies while checking
breakers.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 3/3/2014 5:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:
Agreed. That's another interesting point. The A/C installers didn't kill
the main breaker when they installed a new 240VAC breaker for the outside
compressor. I was concerned about doing controlled shutdowns on my PCs but
they said it wasn't an issue. Obviously it's possible to install new
breakers without using the main 100A breaker or the service disconnect.

Plus don't assume anything is off. use one of those cheap neon indicators.
You hold one end, or ground it, and probe around first.

Got a very nice one with an adjustable sensitivity setting thanks to
Gfretwell's recommendation. Stuck some neo mags on it and now it lives
attached to the cover door of the panel. I figured if I made the circuit
box its home base I would never be tempted to proceed without it. Tossed my
Radio Shack Mircronta neon voltage tester because it was a piece of junk.

Thanks for your input, Robert.

--
Bobby G.



Most panels, it's no big deal to add a breaker
with the mains on. And yes, having a voltage
indicator or neon is great idea. I have some
thing like that in my tools. I often double
check with VOM to ground.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Pete C." wrote in message news:5314924f$0$58969

stuff snipped

Most shoes are pretty good insulators at 120V which is the most you
would get to ground (in the US) anyway. Since the panel enclosure is
grounded and there are terminals of both phases (polarity technically)
in the panel, you have a much better chance of getting across 120V or
even 240V in the panel itself. This is of course where the old "one
hand" idea came from, but as we all know in today's overstuffed panels
that's simply not viable.

I wonder how many electrocutions occur at the circuit panel? Wiki says:
There were 550 electrocutions in the US in 1993, which translates to 2.1
deaths per million inhabitants. At that time, the incidence of
electrocutions was decreasing.[15] Electrocutions in the workplace make up
the majority of these fatalities. From 1980-1992, an average of 411 workers
were killed each year by electrocution.[13]

The two most important safety things you can do are to make sure you
have good footing i.e. you aren't climbing on junk to get to the panel,
and that you have good lighting so you can clearly see inside the panel
to avoid contact with exposed terminals and bus bars.

Amen. I even have two clamp lamps pulling from different circuits aimed at
the panel to increase the chances that they'll always be sufficient light.
And two LED flashlights with magnets. And a lighted magnifying glass (it's
been hell trying to read the label!). And even a little set of shelves next
to the box that hold tools, meters, spare breakers, etc. Fortunately my
panel is just at eye level and fairly easy to access.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message news:2c7c3e6e-b03d-4b38-aeea-

stuff snipped

There should have been a shut-off valve right before
the flex pipe at the dryer.

As I recall, he was installing flex pipe for the first time, and very long
run of it. This is a person who refuses to look at the internet before
starting such a project condemning it all as "worthless." I couldn't
conceive of doing something like that without a *lot* of research on the
net. It would also come under the heading of the gas lines in that house
being dangerous enough and old enough to require someone experienced and
competent doing the job. I have no idea, really, why he thought he was
competent to do gasfitting work. Obviously he was not.

This person is mostly a "swapper" or "plugger" and tends to diagnose things
by replacing things he believes are at fault. Replaced a perfectly good
ignitor when the problem was a vent sensor. Was about to pull the dashboard
on his wife's car because the fan would not stop running, even after the
ignition was turned off.

I had to step him through the idea that the fan only gets power when the
ignition/acc circuits are energized and that the dashboard switch was an
unlikely culprit. More likely was some ignition relay or electronic control
module that succumbed to the cold and starting sticking.

IOW, a decent technical ability but not good diagnostic skills. One thing I
like about Usenet is that it's very easy to evaluate the problem-solving
ability of most posters by the solutions they recommend. Some people don't
bother to read the question thoroughly (although to be fair, many enter a
thread well after the "setup" has been described) and others don't consider
the circumstances of the OP. As you've noted many times, people often post
woefully incomplete descriptions of their problems. That doesn't stop some
people from offering specific solutions. (-:.

Rubber mat at the panel can't hurt. How much good it
does depends on how good of an insulator it actually is,
what material it's really made of, etc.

That may be difficult to determine unless I get one of the $160 mats
suggested elsewhere that will protect me to 17,000 volts. I'm thinking
anything is better than nothing and in any event, it will make standing
there more comfortable. 17,000 volts seems a little bit of overkill for the
panel.

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:15:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

...,,,snip....
Aren't wooden ladders used by electricians? I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.

You were indeed lucky.

When young i 'inherited' many electrical tools from my father, such as
wire strippers and pliers. The reason he gave them to me was that they
were damaged by discharges. So, I had to file off some section of 'welded'
metal blobs to make them work. Still have a few of them. He got them from
people on his job site who either didn't check, or didn't put a red flag
and tape on the breakers, or in one case 'just turned on for a second' ?!
because someone needed electricity for just that simple little time. That
someone got fired. And, everyone breathed a sigh of relief.

On 3/4/2014 10:03 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
When young i 'inherited' many electrical tools from my father, such as
wire strippers and pliers. The reason he gave them to me was that they
were damaged by discharges. So, I had to file off some section of
'welded' metal blobs to make them work. Still have a few of them. He got
them from people on his job site who either didn't check, or didn't put
a red flag and tape on the breakers, or in one case 'just turned on for
a second' ?! because someone needed electricity for just that simple
little time. That someone got fired. And, everyone breathed a sigh of
relief.

I had a helper one time. I was reaching into a
roof HVAC unit to check for motor belt tension.
I heard a voice behind me say "Hey, I'm going to
turn it on to see how it works". As you can
expect, I backed away from the equipment, rapidly.

Foolishly, I did let him work with me, cleaning
carpets on another job He sprinkled water on the
shampooer (ancient equipment, two wire plug).
Told him not to, he did a second time. I fired
him again.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:22:36 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
IOW, a decent technical ability but not good diagnostic skills. One thing I

like about Usenet is that it's very easy to evaluate the problem-solving

ability of most posters by the solutions they recommend. Some people don't

bother to read the question thoroughly (although to be fair, many enter a

thread well after the "setup" has been described) and others don't consider

the circumstances of the OP. As you've noted many times, people often post

woefully incomplete descriptions of their problems. That doesn't stop some

people from offering specific solutions. (-:.

I work with some engineers like that. They're pretty good at design, they'll single mindedly focus until they solve the problem, however difficult.

And they think they're good at diagnosis, but they're a disaster. They fixate on the first idea, and then that same single minded focus prevents them from considering any other root cause, regardless of how much evidence says they're wrong.

The key to good troubleshooting is to resist finding the cause as long as possible. As soon as you know what's wrong, you are incapable of seeing the other symptoms that prove it couldn't be that.

On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 08:03:44 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:15:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

..,,,snip....
Aren't wooden ladders used by electricians? I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.

You were indeed lucky.

When young i 'inherited' many electrical tools from my father, such as
wire strippers and pliers. The reason he gave them to me was that they
were damaged by discharges. So, I had to file off some section of 'welded'
metal blobs to make them work. Still have a few of them. He got them from
people on his job site who either didn't check, or didn't put a red flag
and tape on the breakers, or in one case 'just turned on for a second' ?!
because someone needed electricity for just that simple little time. That
someone got fired. And, everyone breathed a sigh of relief.

I hear ya. One time, much younger, I got sparked up real good with a
12V vehicle battery. Yes you can be shocked g

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 05:45:56 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.





It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

Will it give a false sense of security? I hear that when they put air
bags in cars, people just drove faster. "Law of conservation of risk"

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 05:45:56 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires
aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the
dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line.
Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial
the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs
were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after
they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.





It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

Will it give a false sense of security? I hear that when they put air
bags in cars, people just drove faster. "Law of conservation of risk"

Nah. It would probably just make it more comfortable to stand on the bare
concrete. I've had great respect for the inside of circuit panels ever
since I saw an electrician melt the tip off a screwdriver in the mid-1960's
when we had a new house built. Molten metal sputtered onto the inside of
the box. Very impressive.

--
Bobby G.

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:22:36 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
IOW, a decent technical ability but not good diagnostic skills. One
thing I
like about Usenet is that it's very easy to evaluate the problem-solving
ability of most posters by the solutions they recommend. Some people
don't
bother to read the question thoroughly (although to be fair, many enter
a
thread well after the "setup" has been described) and others don't
consider
the circumstances of the OP. As you've noted many times, people often
post
woefully incomplete descriptions of their problems. That doesn't stop
some
people from offering specific solutions. (-:.

I work with some engineers like that. They're pretty good at design,
they'll single mindedly
focus until they solve the problem, however difficult.

It's amazing how many fields require that sort of focus, from criminal
investigation to archeology. I was reading about the mini-ice age that
occurred 13,000 years ago. Some people think it was caused by the eruption
of a huge volcano:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laacher_See

while others believe it was caused by a large meteorite or comet striking
the North American ice sheet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger...act_hypothesis

There's considerable evidence to support both theories and I think that
eventually the cause will be determined when enough evidence is collected.
Even though a collision with a meteorite/comet probably melted and left no
crater, like a gunshot wound, there are lots of particles left behind that
can tell the story (in this case, it hinges on micro-diamonds and
"fullerenes" - which only form under unusual conditions. Ironically, it's a
little like a criminal investigation - the pieces fill in slowly but
eventually.

And they think they're good at diagnosis, but they're a disaster. They
fixate on the first idea, and then that same single minded focus prevents
them from considering any other root cause, regardless of how much evidence
says they're wrong.

That's very similiar to how criminal investigators get a "suspect lock" and
doctors get a "diagnosis lock" and as you say, they stop looking for other
possible explanations. They fixate on bolstering the suspect/disease they've
"locked onto" and tend to exclude all other evidence.

The key to good troubleshooting is to resist finding the cause as long as
possible. As soon as you know what's wrong, you are incapable of seeing the
other symptoms that prove it couldn't be that.

Absolutely. It's a very common problem in troubleshooting and it's zapped
me more that a few times in trying to diagnose computer problems.

--
Bobby G.

"BenignBodger" wrote in message
...
On 3/2/2014 11:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

stuff snipped

Certainly it could help in some circumstances although I doubt that any
home electrical panel would need such safeguards (assuming that anybody
tinkering with the panel isn't a total arse). But if you must then you
might as well buy the real thing and not take chances that your choice
won't do the job:


http://www.highvoltagesupplies.com/s...anket-1086.cfm

Protects to 17,000 volts for close to $200. I am not sure which is the more
disqualifying of the two. I only need 240V protection and I'd rather not
have to spend $200 for a rubber mat if a much less expensive one would
provide at least *some* greater protection than a concrete floor with a
French drain running right underneath that area.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...

No one has asked what the added mat would be covering. In my house, it
would be on top of carpeting with an underpad above a wood floor. Adddint
the rubber mat would not have any effect unless I was working on voltages of
several thousand volts. Double rubber gloves is good, long-sleeved shirts
to cover the arms up to the gloves also important.

Good question - sorry for the important omission. It's covering a concrete
floor that has a French drain running all along the perimeter of the
basement wall.

The problem with double rubber gloves is the loss of dexterity. Even single
rubber gloves make life difficult when working inside close spaces.

--
Bobby G.

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xb7dgiy82cx0wh@ajm...

stuff snipped

When young i 'inherited' many electrical tools from my father, such as
wire strippers and pliers. The reason he gave them to me was that they
were damaged by discharges. So, I had to file off some section of 'welded'
metal blobs to make them work. Still have a few of them. He got them from
people on his job site who either didn't check, or didn't put a red flag
and tape on the breakers, or in one case 'just turned on for a second' ?!
because someone needed electricity for just that simple little time. That
someone got fired. And, everyone breathed a sigh of relief.

I still have the screwdriver an electrician partially melted futzing around
inside a circuit panel. I kept it to remind me of the power of electricity.
Reminds me of the local skeet range that has a board that contains all the
shotgun barrel ends (over 20) that exploded, usually after being fired after
the shooter let the barrel get plugged by mud. Bulged barrels, torn
barrels, shredded barrels and one that looked like an eggbeater because it
shredded in 1/4" ribbons.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:50:06 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 05:45:56 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2014 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the
panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires
aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the
dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line.
Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench. It only took a second to dial
the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs
were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after
they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

--
Bobby G.





It certainly would not hurt anything to place a rubber mat there but
it's not likely to make anything safer.

Will it give a false sense of security? I hear that when they put air
bags in cars, people just drove faster. "Law of conservation of risk"

Nah. It would probably just make it more comfortable to stand on the bare
concrete. I've had great respect for the inside of circuit panels ever
since I saw an electrician melt the tip off a screwdriver in the mid-1960's
when we had a new house built. Molten metal sputtered onto the inside of
the box. Very impressive.

Sounds impressive. I wonder if there is any way to use that breaker-box
method to make jewelry. Or guns.

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:15:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 07:35:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Dry wood such as plywood can also help.

Aren't wooden ladders used by electricians?

I was on the maintenance end of a project where others climbed up a
ladder next to 100's of telephone poles. They got talked into buying an
fiberglass extension ladder for the project, much heavier than aluminum
would have been.

And the ladder actually never went as high as the wires, only high
enough that someone standing on the ladder could reach the lowest wire.

But we still used it.

I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

Me too. The connecting a surge protector is on the list, especially if
it gets opened for any other reason.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.

Isn't your heart in the middle of your chest? That's supposed to be the
weak link when it comes to electricity.

On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:03:30 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

My wife asks: "Is there any protection to be gained by placing a thick
rubber mat in front of the circuit panel where someone working on the panel
would normally stand?" It would seem it would have to help a little.

I suspect my turning my head upside inside the box and pushing wires aside
to read the label information has got her worried again. (-:

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line. Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench.

Seriously? Did her husband know or learn later how little faith she
had in him?

The closest story I have to this is from college, one of our fraternity
members was always elected House Manager. Sometimes they knew nothing
about repairs and just called a repairman, but many years they knew more
than that, and my roommate was house manager and I was very impressed by
him. I'd never known anyone before who knew what he was doing.

So one night first-year students were invited over for rush, and Don
hated rush events (and meetings etc.) and because it was old and
rusting, he had removed the metal shower on the third floor so that only
the galvanized pipes were standing there, and a bunch of us are talking
and the pipes are rocking back and forth, only an inch or two, but I'm
thinking Maybe that's bad, But Don knows much more about these things
than I do. And less thana minute later one pipe breaks and water is
going everywhere, and Don goes to the basement and turns off the water,
and gets to spend the whole evening repairing the pipe and doesn't have
to talk to the first-year students at all!!!

I don't know if this was partly intentional or not. Hard to believe it
would be but Don was a complicated guy. From a tiny town, St. Peter
Minnesota, population 8500 then (11,500 now) , maybe grew up on a farm,
enrolled in (and graduated from) U. of Chicago, built his own record
player amplifier, mounted speaker in the closet put a hole in the wall
for the sound to come out (Infinite baffle, he said it was) to listen to
classical music. Built a jammer so the guy across the hall couldn't
listen to his rock music. Rich'd change stations so Don would change
frequencies on the jammer. Rich never found out what was going on.
Enlisted in the army after college, 1967, Viet Nam, became a drill
instructor. Before or after that, he parachuted in behind enemy lines
to do special ops. Came back alive in one piece, I'm told, but I
haven't talked to him since the end of his fourth year.


It only took a second to dial the
last "1" and get emergency services. He had no idea where the shutoffs were
located, either. He figured not much gas would leak out by the time he
fitted the new flexible pipe. jeez The gas guys don't screw around,
either. They immediately shut off the gas at the meter right after they
rolled up and saw the panicked homeowners standing outside.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:41:23 -0500, micky
wrote:

I never do anything in an
open panel, except to change a breaker or add one.

Me too. The connecting a surge protector is on the list, especially if
it gets opened for any other reason.


Same here, a breaker SPD for the panel. I have the space on top for a
double breaker so nothing has to be moved to make room - should be
easy. I'll be nervous though.

I have a great fear. Always nervous about it. Keep one hand in my
pocket. Learned a lesson being stupid and got myself shocked on a
three-way switch - the shock traveled across my chest standing on a
metal ladder.

Isn't your heart in the middle of your chest? That's supposed to be the
weak link when it comes to electricity.

Yes. If you get knocked off the ladder, it helps

I've read that DC contracts your muscles and you cannot let go. AC
pulsates, with a chance to break away.

BUT don't take my advice.

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I saw an electrician melt the tip off a screwdriver in the mid-1960's
when we had a new house built. Molten metal sputtered onto the inside of
the box. Very impressive.

Sounds impressive. I wonder if there is any way to use that breaker-box
method to make jewelry. Or guns.

There are actually a number of sputtering methods used to produce exotic
metals but I don't think they use a circuit panel, a screwdrive and a
careless electrician to do it. (-:

It was a good reminder that even gloved up with long sleeves, goggles are
probably a good thing to wear, too. Pop a blob of melted steel in your eye
and it's probably lights out forever in that eye.

--
Bobby G.

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Might have something to do with my neighbor who was going to move the
dryer
for his wife for her birthday and ended up breaking the main gas line.
Said
the emergency gas tech that responded "it's a miracle you didn't blow
yourselves up." Fortunately the wife had the presence of mind to have
dialed "9 + 1" as he turned the wrench.

Seriously? Did her husband know or learn later how little faith she
had in him?

Yes. He was far more concerned that she told ME about it, though. This is
a guy who suggested that I mount a 12VDC gel cell to the bottom of my DeWalt
drill using SCREWS through the black plastic battery case!!!!! And DEFENDED
that strategy quite vociferously. I asked him to produce one site where
anyone had mounted any sort of AGM battery by screwing into the battery
case. Ot Nay Oo Tay Right Bay. The kicker? He's a Mensan. Solving brain
teasers does NOT equate to having common sense.

The closest story I have to this is from college, one of our fraternity
members was always elected House Manager. Sometimes they knew nothing
about repairs and just called a repairman, but many years they knew more
than that, and my roommate was house manager and I was very impressed by
him. I'd never known anyone before who knew what he was doing.

So one night first-year students were invited over for rush, and Don
hated rush events (and meetings etc.) and because it was old and
rusting, he had removed the metal shower on the third floor so that only
the galvanized pipes were standing there, and a bunch of us are talking
and the pipes are rocking back and forth, only an inch or two, but I'm
thinking Maybe that's bad, But Don knows much more about these things
than I do. And less thana minute later one pipe breaks and water is
going everywhere, and Don goes to the basement and turns off the water,
and gets to spend the whole evening repairing the pipe and doesn't have
to talk to the first-year students at all!!!

I don't know if this was partly intentional or not. Hard to believe it
would be but Don was a complicated guy. From a tiny town, St. Peter
Minnesota, population 8500 then (11,500 now) , maybe grew up on a farm,
enrolled in (and graduated from) U. of Chicago, built his own record
player amplifier, mounted speaker in the closet put a hole in the wall
for the sound to come out (Infinite baffle, he said it was) to listen to
classical music. Built a jammer so the guy across the hall couldn't
listen to his rock music. Rich'd change stations so Don would change
frequencies on the jammer. Rich never found out what was going on.
Enlisted in the army after college, 1967, Viet Nam, became a drill
instructor. Before or after that, he parachuted in behind enemy lines
to do special ops. Came back alive in one piece, I'm told, but I
haven't talked to him since the end of his fourth year.

Some people are like that - my Mom's brother built his own house by hand
whereas my other uncle couldn't hammer a nail into a 2 by 4.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:12:24 -0800, Oren wrote:


I've read that DC contracts your muscles and you cannot let go. AC
pulsates, with a chance to break away.

BUT don't take my advice.

Well, I've gotten 110 AC several times (and one time I figured out that
my train transformer was broken, becuase I'd opened it up and had been
handling it for an hour and never got a shock, even though I had
forgotten to unplug it. The plug was broken from the wire.)

And I once got 2000 volts DC, from a television. I didn't hold on and
it knocked me across the room and dislocated a shoulder than hadn't been
out for 15 years. I might have been on my haunches instead of my knees.
That was a violation of Philo's or Robert's rules. I was being careful
and don't even know what I touched.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:56:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:12:24 -0800, Oren wrote:


I've read that DC contracts your muscles and you cannot let go. AC
pulsates, with a chance to break away.

BUT don't take my advice.

Well, I've gotten 110 AC several times (and one time I figured out that
my train transformer was broken, becuase I'd opened it up and had been
handling it for an hour and never got a shock, even though I had
forgotten to unplug it. The plug was broken from the wire.)

And I once got 2000 volts DC, from a television. I didn't hold on and
it knocked me across the room and dislocated a shoulder than hadn't been
out for 15 years. I might have been on my haunches instead of my knees.
That was a violation of Philo's or Robert's rules. I was being careful
and don't even know what I touched.
The beauty of a colour TV (CRT) is you didn't HAVE to touch
anything. With 6000volts you just had to get CLOSE. 6000 was on B&W
sets - big colour sets can be as high as 25000+

I had a REAL old TV transformer straighten me out real quick - and at
6"I was taller than the basement ceiling height. My hard head drove a
nail (head) up through the linoleum flooring , hitting it on the sharp
end from below.

On 3/7/2014 12:25 AM, wrote:
And I once got 2000 volts DC, from a television. I didn't hold on and
it knocked me across the room and dislocated a shoulder than hadn't been
out for 15 years. I might have been on my haunches instead of my knees.
That was a violation of Philo's or Robert's rules. I was being careful
and don't even know what I touched.
The beauty of a colour TV (CRT) is you didn't HAVE to touch
anything. With 6000volts you just had to get CLOSE. 6000 was on B&W
sets - big colour sets can be as high as 25000+

I had a REAL old TV transformer straighten me out real quick - and at
6"I was taller than the basement ceiling height. My hard head drove a
nail (head) up through the linoleum flooring , hitting it on the sharp
end from below.


You had a five inch ceiling height? Sorry to hear that.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..