3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

Don't know what you are talking about or asking. If you don't know how to
describe a simple setup, possibly you should not be touching anything.

"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

Each wire goes to one side at 120 volts. The ground is common.

If you don't know about this, I'd advise two things.
1. Don't touch anything yet
2. Get a basic electricity book

There is nothing magical about electricity in the home, but the learning
curve can be deadly so don't overstep your skill level.

It's called buss. There are two separate busses, one for each leg. When your
main breaker is "on" the current passes to each of the two busses and the
circuit breakers are snapped onto this buss to send the electricity to the
individual loads


"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

BoyntonStu wrote:
3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

Your 100A breaker takes 4 spaces. But no they can't - each incoming wire
connects to only one of the panel busses even though each half of the
breaker covers both busses. The breaker might actually use connection to
only 2 of the spaces or if it might use all 4 but stager the connection
inside the breaker.

--
bud--

On Dec 13, 10:47 am, bud-- wrote:
BoyntonStu wrote:
3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

Your 100A breaker takes 4 spaces. But no they can't - each incoming wire
connects to only one of the panel busses even though each half of the
breaker covers both busses. The breaker might actually use connection to
only 2 of the spaces or if it might use all 4 but stager the connection
inside the breaker.

--
bud--

Bud,

OK One bus must be longer in length than the other in order for the
top part to reach over the shorter bus and contact the 2nd breaker
output.


An electrician found an error in my breaker box and I was curious.

He measured 240 VAC between a black wire and a white wire.

Someone had connected the white wire to the panel neutral side of a
GFCI breaker? Duh!

I could not understand how 240 VAC could exist.

He simply grounded the white wire everything was dandy.


Do you understand the situation?

I'm not understanding you. On some panels, one leg of buss would be longer
to reach a horizontally installed main breaker. A 120 volt GFCI breaker has
a white wire on it that gets installed on the neutral buss.



"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
On Dec 13, 10:47 am, bud-- wrote:
BoyntonStu wrote:
3 wires coming into panel.

1 wire to ground.

2 other wires have 240 volts between them.

Each wire is connected to a 100 Amp breaker that is ganged to another.

Where do these wires connect to when the breaker is ON?

IOW If there is 240 VAC between these 2 wires they can't connect to
the same strip, can they?

Your 100A breaker takes 4 spaces. But no they can't - each incoming wire
connects to only one of the panel busses even though each half of the
breaker covers both busses. The breaker might actually use connection to
only 2 of the spaces or if it might use all 4 but stager the connection
inside the breaker.

--
bud--

Bud,

OK One bus must be longer in length than the other in order for the
top part to reach over the shorter bus and contact the 2nd breaker
output.


An electrician found an error in my breaker box and I was curious.

He measured 240 VAC between a black wire and a white wire.

Someone had connected the white wire to the panel neutral side of a
GFCI breaker? Duh!

I could not understand how 240 VAC could exist.

He simply grounded the white wire everything was dandy.


Do you understand the situation?

On Dec 13, 3:44 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm not understanding you. On some panels, one leg of buss would be longer
to reach a horizontally installed main breaker. A 120 volt GFCI breaker has
a white wire on it that gets installed on the neutral buss.



Yes, it had the 20 volt GFCI breaker with a white wire on it
installed on the neutral buss.

The other white wire from the black/white pair, was initially
connected to the neutral of the GFCI.

When it was removed, it measured 240 VAC to the black of another
circuit breaker output.

That was the surprise and confusion.

In article , BoyntonStu wrote:
On Dec 13, 3:44 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm not understanding you. On some panels, one leg of buss would be longer
to reach a horizontally installed main breaker. A 120 volt GFCI breaker has
a white wire on it that gets installed on the neutral buss.



Yes, it had the 20 volt

Obviously a typo -- but what digit is missing? Was that supposed to be 120, or
240?

GFCI breaker with a white wire on it
installed on the neutral buss.

The other white wire from the black/white pair, was initially
connected to the neutral of the GFCI.

On a 120V GFCI breaker, that's where it's *supposed* to be connected.

When it was removed, it measured 240 VAC to the black of another
circuit breaker output.

That was the surprise and confusion.

Not surprising at all if you stop and think about it. Disconnect (carefully!!)
the neutral wire for any circuit from the bus bar. Turn on some load on
that circuit (e.g. a light bulb). Then measure the voltage between that
neutral wire and the terminal of an adjacent circuit breaker (which in most
panels will be on the opposite leg of the service). 240VAC is exactly what you
should see.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Dec 14, 8:16 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , BoyntonStu wrote:

On Dec 13, 3:44 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm not understanding you. On some panels, one leg of buss would be longer
to reach a horizontally installed main breaker. A 120 volt GFCI breaker has
a white wire on it that gets installed on the neutral buss.

Yes, it had the 20 volt

Obviously a typo -- but what digit is missing? Was that supposed to be 120, or
240?

GFCI breaker with a white wire on it
installed on the neutral buss.

The other white wire from the black/white pair, was initially
connected to the neutral of the GFCI.

On a 120V GFCI breaker, that's where it's *supposed* to be connected.

When it was removed, it measured 240 VAC to the black of another
circuit breaker output.

That was the surprise and confusion.

Not surprising at all if you stop and think about it. Disconnect (carefully!!)
the neutral wire for any circuit from the bus bar. Turn on some load on
that circuit (e.g. a light bulb). Then measure the voltage between that
neutral wire and the terminal of an adjacent circuit breaker (which in most
panels will be on the opposite leg of the service). 240VAC is exactly what you
should see.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Yes 240 VAC. (typo)

"Not surprising at all if you stop and think about it.

3 wires coming into panel.

1 is neutral wired to ground.

There is 240VAC between the 2 others and each is wired to a bus.


We are examining the left (odd) side column of breakers; 13 and 15.

Question 1. Are 13 and 15 on the same leg?

Question 2. What should the black of 15 measure to a lifted white
wire?

In article , BoyntonStu wrote:
On Dec 14, 8:16 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
BoyntonStu wrote:

On Dec 13, 3:44 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I'm not understanding you. On some panels, one leg of buss would be longer
to reach a horizontally installed main breaker. A 120 volt GFCI breaker has
a white wire on it that gets installed on the neutral buss.

Yes, it had the 20 volt

Obviously a typo -- but what digit is missing? Was that supposed to be 120, or
240?

GFCI breaker with a white wire on it
installed on the neutral buss.

The other white wire from the black/white pair, was initially
connected to the neutral of the GFCI.

On a 120V GFCI breaker, that's where it's *supposed* to be connected.

When it was removed, it measured 240 VAC to the black of another
circuit breaker output.

That was the surprise and confusion.

Not surprising at all if you stop and think about it. Disconnect (carefully!!)
the neutral wire for any circuit from the bus bar. Turn on some load on
that circuit (e.g. a light bulb). Then measure the voltage between that
neutral wire and the terminal of an adjacent circuit breaker (which in most
panels will be on the opposite leg of the service). 240VAC is exactly what you
should see.

Yes 240 VAC. (typo)

"Not surprising at all if you stop and think about it.

3 wires

Now wait a minute. Above, you referred to a "black/white pair". Here, you're
talking about three wires. Which is it?

coming into panel.

Do you mean they are bringing power *into* the panel? If so, then what do they
have to do with the GFCI breaker in the panel?

1 is neutral wired to ground.

There is 240VAC between the 2 others and each is wired to a bus.

To a bus? Not to a breaker?

We are examining the left (odd) side column of breakers; 13 and 15.

Question 1. Are 13 and 15 on the same leg?

No. Not in most panels, anyway.

Question 2. What should the black of 15 measure to a lifted white
wire?

Impossible to answer, without knowing what type of circuit that white wire is
part of, and what breaker(s) the other wire(s) in the circuit is/are connected
to.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Gentlemen re-start your engines!

3 wires from the outside come inside to the breaker box.

A 100 AMP double breaker labeled "MAIN" receives the 2 hot wires.

The neutral is wired to ground.

The output of the 2 MAIN breakers (when switched ON) goes to 2
vertical busses.

We are examining the left (odd) side column of breakers; 13 and 15.

Question 1. Are 13 and 15 on the same leg? (I assume so)

Question 2. What should the black of 15 measure to a lifted white
wire?

In article , BoyntonStu wrote:
Gentlemen re-start your engines!

3 wires from the outside come inside to the breaker box.

A 100 AMP double breaker labeled "MAIN" receives the 2 hot wires.

The neutral is wired to ground.

The output of the 2 MAIN breakers (when switched ON) goes to 2
vertical busses.

We are examining the left (odd) side column of breakers; 13 and 15.

Question 1. Are 13 and 15 on the same leg? (I assume so)

Why do you assume that? The probability is very high that they are *not*. The
typical arrangement is for the stabs to alternate legs vertically. That is,
the top stab in each column will be on leg A, the second stab in each column
on leg B, the third on leg A, and so on -- so with the left column designated
as 1, 3, 5, ... then 1 and 2 are on leg A, 3 and 4 on B, 4 and 5 on A, and so
on.

In any event, there's no need for you to assume anything: the label inside the
panel door will show you exactly how the stabs are connected to the busses.

Question 2. What should the black of 15 measure to a lifted white
wire?

As I said before, that's impossible to answer without knowing what type of
circuit that white wire is part of, and which breaker(s) the other wire(s) in
that circuit connect to.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen re-start your engines!

3 wires from the outside come inside to the breaker box.

A 100 AMP double breaker labeled "MAIN" receives the 2 hot wires.

The neutral is wired to ground.

The output of the 2 MAIN breakers (when switched ON) goes to 2
vertical busses.

We are examining the left (odd) side column of breakers; 13 and 15.

Question 1. Are 13 and 15 on the same leg? (I assume so)

Question 2. What should the black of 15 measure to a lifted white
wire?


If the white wire is from circuit 13 and there is an energized load on it
will probably be between 220 - 240 volts and zero. With no load it should be
zero. If the white wire is from circuit 15 the reading can be anywhere from
120 to zero depending on the load or no-load.
Usually breakers alternate phases on the same column. So between breaker 13
and 15 you should have 220 -240 volts because they are opposite phases.

What brand of circuit breaker panel is this? What was the problem that you
originally experienced that caused you to call an electrician in the first
place?

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:00:06 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu
wrote:

Gentlemen re-start your engines!

3 wires from the outside come inside to the breaker box.

A 100 AMP double breaker labeled "MAIN" receives the 2 hot wires.

The neutral is wired to ground.

The output of the 2 MAIN breakers (when switched ON) goes to 2
vertical busses.

We are examining the left (odd) side column of breakers; 13 and 15.

Question 1. Are 13 and 15 on the same leg? (I assume so)

Question 2. What should the black of 15 measure to a lifted white
wire?

On my panel (Square D), breaker positions down the left side are
numbered:

1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19

and on the right side:

2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20

1,2,5,6,9,10,13,14,17,18

are on one leg.

3,4,7,8,11,12,15,16,19,20

are on the other. Any 2 adjacent positions are on different legs,
allowing the use of a double pole 240V breaker in any 2
vertically-adjacent positions.
--
11 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

why not just call it Merry Christmas? Since that IS the reason for the
season.


s

wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:48:56 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

11 days until the winter solstice celebration

Why don't you celebrate the solstice on the solstice?

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:22:04 -0600, "S. Barker"
wrote:

why not just call it Merry Christmas? Since that IS the reason for the
season.

No it isn't. This season was celebrated much earlier than that event
which probably happened at a different time of year (if it happened at
all).



s

wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:48:56 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

11 days until the winter solstice celebration

Why don't you celebrate the solstice on the solstice?

--
7 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd wrote:
....
...(if it happened at all).

There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone. What you choose to make of it is an
entirely different matter.

--

blah blah blah. You really should go to church and believe the truth.
You'd save a bunch of rhetoric bs you spew.

s


"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
No it isn't. This season was celebrated much earlier than that event
which probably happened at a different time of year (if it happened at
all).

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:27:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
...
...(if it happened at all).

There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone.

Anywhere besides someone's imagination?

What you choose to make of it is an
entirely different matter.

Choice has nothing at all to do with it. I have always had the ability
to recognize BS.
--
6 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:08:33 -0600, "S. Barker"
wrote:

blah blah blah. You really should go to church and believe the truth.
You'd save a bunch of rhetoric bs you spew.


All I can say about that is, LOL, seriously.

s


"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
.. .
No it isn't. This season was celebrated much earlier than that event
which probably happened at a different time of year (if it happened at
all).


--
6 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:27:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
...
...(if it happened at all).
There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone.

Anywhere besides someone's imagination?

Roman history amongst others...

--

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:11:03 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:27:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
...
...(if it happened at all).
There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone.

Anywhere besides someone's imagination?

Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?
--
6 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:11:03 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:27:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
...
...(if it happened at all).
There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone.
Anywhere besides someone's imagination?
Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

It's been a long time since university days (as in 30-40 yrs or so), so
no, I don't have any otomh reference works I could accurately write
guaranteed correctly citeable citations down for, no...I'll only say the
correlation between various writings, events, etc., are enough to pretty
much make it clear there was a person, Herod _was_ administrator from
Rome, etc., etc., etc., ...

What one makes of that is open to interpretation...

--

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:51:35 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote Re Circuit Breaker Panel
Question:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:11:03 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:27:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
...
...(if it happened at all).
There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone.

Anywhere besides someone's imagination?

Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1 by
Gibbon

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/890 or

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/731

Of course, you also need to read Volumes 2 & 3.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 05:20:03 -0600, Caesar Romano
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:51:35 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote Re Circuit Breaker Panel
Question:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:11:03 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:27:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
...
...(if it happened at all).
There's no question of the event--too much historical evidence outside
the religious writings alone.

Anywhere besides someone's imagination?

Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1 by
Gibbon

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/890 or

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/731

Of course, you also need to read Volumes 2 & 3.

I saved that to read later. Any specific sections you recommend?
--
5 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:58:20 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote Re Circuit Breaker Panel
Question:



Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1 by
Gibbon

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/890 or

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/731

Of course, you also need to read Volumes 2 & 3.

I saved that to read later. Any specific sections you recommend?

No. Just start at page 1. Seriously, it's not only facinating history,
but Gibbon's style of writting is beautiful. It has a ticking
clock-like cadence that makes it almost poetry to read. The entire
3000 pages are a joy. I read the paper-books twice (once in college
many years ago and once again about 10-years ago).

Here's a quote from the first paragraph of the first chapter:

===== start quote ========

In the second century of the Christian Æra, the empire of Rome
comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilized
portion of mankind. The frontiers of that extensive monarchy were
guarded by ancient renown and disciplined valor. The gentle but
powerful influence of laws and manners had gradually cemented the
union of the provinces. Their peaceful inhabitants enjoyed and abused
the advantages of wealth and luxury. The image of a free constitution
was preserved with decent reverence: the Roman senate appeared to
possess the sovereign authority, and devolved on the emperors all the
executive powers of government.

=== end quote ==========

If you can't get a hard copy, I reccomend the html version.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:03:21 -0500, wrote Re
Circuit Breaker Panel Question:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:47:01 -0600, Caesar Romano
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:58:20 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote Re Circuit Breaker Panel
Question:



Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1 by
Gibbon

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/890 or

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/731

Of course, you also need to read Volumes 2 & 3.

I saved that to read later. Any specific sections you recommend?

No. Just start at page 1. Seriously, it's not only facinating history,
but Gibbon's style of writting is beautiful. It has a ticking
clock-like cadence that makes it almost poetry to read. The entire
3000 pages are a joy. I read the paper-books twice (once in college
many years ago and once again about 10-years ago).

Here's a quote from the first paragraph of the first chapter:

===== start quote ========

In the second century of the Christian Æra, the empire of Rome
comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilized
portion of mankind. The frontiers of that extensive monarchy were
guarded by ancient renown and disciplined valor. The gentle but
powerful influence of laws and manners had gradually cemented the
union of the provinces. Their peaceful inhabitants enjoyed and abused
the advantages of wealth and luxury. The image of a free constitution
was preserved with decent reverence: the Roman senate appeared to
possess the sovereign authority, and devolved on the emperors all the
executive powers of government.

=== end quote ==========

If you can't get a hard copy, I reccomend the html version.

One maigt argue that any written history would have to include Christ
to make it through the 14th and 15th century without being burned.

One might also argue that you are an ass hole.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:34:39 -0500, wrote Re
Circuit Breaker Panel Question:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:30 -0600, Caesar Romano
wrote:

One maigt argue that any written history would have to include Christ
to make it through the 14th and 15th century without being burned.

One might also argue that you are an ass hole.

An inquisition denier I suppose?

Not at all. I am aware of de Torquemada and his place in history.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:47:01 -0600, Caesar Romano
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:58:20 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote Re Circuit Breaker Panel
Question:



Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1 by
Gibbon

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/890 or

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/731

Of course, you also need to read Volumes 2 & 3.

I saved that to read later. Any specific sections you recommend?

No. Just start at page 1. Seriously, it's not only facinating history,
but Gibbon's style of writting is beautiful. It has a ticking
clock-like cadence that makes it almost poetry to read. The entire
3000 pages are a joy. I read the paper-books twice (once in college
many years ago and once again about 10-years ago).

Here's a quote from the first paragraph of the first chapter:

===== start quote ========

In the second century of the Christian Æra, the empire of Rome
comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilized
portion of mankind. The frontiers of that extensive monarchy were
guarded by ancient renown and disciplined valor. The gentle but
powerful influence of laws and manners had gradually cemented the
union of the provinces. Their peaceful inhabitants enjoyed and abused
the advantages of wealth and luxury. The image of a free constitution
was preserved with decent reverence: the Roman senate appeared to
possess the sovereign authority, and devolved on the emperors all the
executive powers of government.

=== end quote ==========

If you can't get a hard copy, I reccomend the html version.

I now have all 6 volumes saved on my hard disk, which I do intend to
read when I have time.
--
4 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:03:21 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:47:01 -0600, Caesar Romano
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:58:20 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote Re Circuit Breaker Panel
Question:



Roman history amongst others...

Do you have any specific references for that? Something someone could
check out?

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1 by
Gibbon

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/890 or

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/731

Of course, you also need to read Volumes 2 & 3.

I saved that to read later. Any specific sections you recommend?

No. Just start at page 1. Seriously, it's not only facinating history,
but Gibbon's style of writting is beautiful. It has a ticking
clock-like cadence that makes it almost poetry to read. The entire
3000 pages are a joy. I read the paper-books twice (once in college
many years ago and once again about 10-years ago).

Here's a quote from the first paragraph of the first chapter:

===== start quote ========

In the second century of the Christian Æra, the empire of Rome
comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilized
portion of mankind. The frontiers of that extensive monarchy were
guarded by ancient renown and disciplined valor. The gentle but
powerful influence of laws and manners had gradually cemented the
union of the provinces. Their peaceful inhabitants enjoyed and abused
the advantages of wealth and luxury. The image of a free constitution
was preserved with decent reverence: the Roman senate appeared to
possess the sovereign authority, and devolved on the emperors all the
executive powers of government.

=== end quote ==========

If you can't get a hard copy, I reccomend the html version.

One maigt argue that any written history would have to include Christ
to make it through the 14th and 15th century without being burned.

Which probably has a lot to do with historical writings being biased.
The correct ones often didn't survive.
--
4 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:04:42 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:47:14 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

One might argue that any written history would have to include Christ
to make it through the 14th and 15th century without being burned.

Which probably has a lot to do with historical writings being biased.
The correct ones often didn't survive.


The victors always get to write the history

True. Even if the vanquished could have done a better job of it.
--
3 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligable. Early
in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin