I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro

It really depends on what the panel is listed to do, however typically you
can install two ground wires under one screw, but not two neutral wires



"Jethro" wrote in message
...
I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro

Jethro wrote:
I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

I have done it with no problem

Well, then, I guess I should take another look to see if all neutrals
are singular and only grounds are doubled up.

Thanks

Jethro


On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 08:35:48 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

It really depends on what the panel is listed to do, however typically you
can install two ground wires under one screw, but not two neutral wires



"Jethro" wrote in message
.. .
I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro

"Lawrence" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jethro wrote:
I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

I have done it with no problem

So have I , but sadly that doesn't prove it is okay.
My house had a multiwire circuit all on one leg, and my cottage had three
#12 wires connected to one 50a breaker. The fact that they had been like
that for 20 years certainly didn't prove they were okay.

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


TOM - you have scared the Hell out of me!

Jethro

TOM - you have scared the Hell out of me!

I have never seen a wire come off the buss, though I expect it can happen; I
have had them fall off breakers and it is not too different.
If it did, 999 times out of 1000 you would simply have a dead circuit if it
were a neutral. If it were a ground, you would probably never know, though
it would be pretty obvious if you ever encountered a situation where you
need a ground.

Even that 1 chance in 1000 probably wouldn't be serious. But of course, it
could be. Since you don't want to gamble with your life, it is important to
follow code.

So, be scared enough to follow code, but not scared enough to lose sleep.

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

You can always add a ground-neutral buss


"Jethro" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:16:55 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can always add a ground-neutral buss

You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if
there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large.
Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what
that's worth.

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

HD has them. A small one is a couple of dollars
"Jethro" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:16:55 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can always add a ground-neutral buss

You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if
there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large.
Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what
that's worth.

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:20:50 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

HD has them. A small one is a couple of dollars

One more -

I can examine breaker boxes in the store I guess to see how two
ground-busses are linked, but do you know? That is, should a second
new buss be connected to the first one (which of course is grounded)?
Or does a second buss need its own ground?

Thanks

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:16:55 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can always add a ground-neutral buss

You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if
there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large.
Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what
that's worth.

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

If it doesn't come as a kit, get a short piece of #4 to link them together


"Jethro" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:20:50 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

HD has them. A small one is a couple of dollars

One more -

I can examine breaker boxes in the store I guess to see how two
ground-busses are linked, but do you know? That is, should a second
new buss be connected to the first one (which of course is grounded)?
Or does a second buss need its own ground?

Thanks

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:16:55 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can always add a ground-neutral buss

You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if
there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large.
Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what
that's worth.

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
m...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 19:17:56 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

If it doesn't come as a kit, get a short piece of #4 to link them together



Thanks

Jethro
"Jethro" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:20:50 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

HD has them. A small one is a couple of dollars

One more -

I can examine breaker boxes in the store I guess to see how two
ground-busses are linked, but do you know? That is, should a second
new buss be connected to the first one (which of course is grounded)?
Or does a second buss need its own ground?

Thanks

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:16:55 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can always add a ground-neutral buss

You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if
there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large.
Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what
that's worth.

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 19:17:56 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

If it doesn't come as a kit, get a short piece of #4 to link them together


Look at your panel. Many times the neutral bar is bonded to the case
via a screw. It might be a very pale green. By adding your ground
bar to the panel (usually screwed right into the back metal panel),
the two are now bonded on your main panel.

Just a guess, didn't look up your specific panel.

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com





"Jethro" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:20:50 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

HD has them. A small one is a couple of dollars

One more -

I can examine breaker boxes in the store I guess to see how two
ground-busses are linked, but do you know? That is, should a second
new buss be connected to the first one (which of course is grounded)?
Or does a second buss need its own ground?

Thanks

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:16:55 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can always add a ground-neutral buss

You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if
there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large.
Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what
that's worth.

Jethro



"Jethro" wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:10:28 -0400, tom wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:27:52 GMT, Jethro wrote:

I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I
found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with
existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two
white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it
would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and
bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two
wires.

Any problem here?

Thanks

Jethro


2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.

110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for
to connect aluminum shall be so identified"

- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by
the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal
screw.

110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing
or lableing"

- Get information from the manufacturer

110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and
workmanlike manner"

- No guessing allowed.

408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within
the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for
another conductor"

There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you
description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.


Conclusion?

1. Get information for your panel. Find out if you grounds can be
doubled up. In my square-d panel, equipment grounding conductors
"grounds" can be doubled up if they are of the same guage "size".

2. Following manufactures instructions, re-manage your wires, and if
you run out of room, invest in installing a seperate ground bar, if
allowed.

3. Get a qualified electrician!

Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to
understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical
equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided
house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse,
loss of life.

hth,

tom


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

I saw a loose neutral wire, one time. The lady had a socket in the
front room which didn't want to run the window AC. However, the socket
in the kitchen was OK, but that didn't cool the house as well.

I pulled the panel box open, and went to turn on the AC. She noticed
the sparking "up in the corner there". Tightened all the neutrals, and
found the one that was loose.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:59:42 GMT, Jethro wrote:


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)

As to twins, I'm like a newbie. Do you mean physically coupled
together? Why? I've only seen that with 220 circuits like stoves and
water heaters, where one wants to diconnect both sides of one thing at
the same time. Does your garage freezer lose power when a garage
light trips the breaker?
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?

never double up neutral wires! if you remove a neutral wire from the
neutral buss and the circuit is under a load, that wire will become
energized and you could fry your self.
you should not see white wires connected to the grounding terminals. i
suggest you have an electrician have a look at your panel.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:46:50 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:59:42 GMT, Jethro wrote:


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)

As to twins, I'm like a newbie. Do you mean physically coupled
together? Why? I've only seen that with 220 circuits like stoves and
water heaters, where one wants to diconnect both sides of one thing at
the same time. Does your garage freezer lose power when a garage
light trips the breaker?
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?


Maybe 'twins' is the wrong term. I was told that the term was the
correct descriptor. There are regular size 15A breakers about some 1"
wide. There are other 15A breakers that are the same size but
contain two (yes two) actual 15A breakers completely not associated
with each other. What you end up with is two 15A breakers that occupy
the breaker panel space of one normal 15A breaker. Thus you have two
15A breakers that function as two breakers normally would, but the use
less pane space. I hope I described this clearly.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:57:57 GMT, Jethro wrote:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:46:50 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:59:42 GMT, Jethro wrote:


Tom

My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R

It is now full with 8 breakers:
left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat
(double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single)
110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)

right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior)
110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next)
110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with
prior)

As to twins, I'm like a newbie. Do you mean physically coupled
together? Why? I've only seen that with 220 circuits like stoves and
water heaters, where one wants to diconnect both sides of one thing at
the same time. Does your garage freezer lose power when a garage
light trips the breaker?
220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)

It has a 200A Main Breaker

What do you think?


Maybe 'twins' is the wrong term. I was told that the term was the
correct descriptor. There are regular size 15A breakers about some 1"
wide. There are other 15A breakers that are the same size but
contain two (yes two) actual 15A breakers completely not associated
with each other.

I haven't seen those. I've seen half-height (or half-wide?) but not
two that are in the same case.

I don't know yours are called or what they should be called.

But that's why I asked.

What you end up with is two 15A breakers that occupy
the breaker panel space of one normal 15A breaker. Thus you have two
15A breakers that function as two breakers normally would, but the use
less pane space. I hope I described this clearly.

Gotcha

On 12 Sep 2006 14:11:09 -0700, "matt"
wrote:


never double up neutral wires! if you remove a neutral wire from the
neutral buss and the circuit is under a load, that wire will become
energized and you could fry your self.
you should not see white wires connected to the grounding terminals. i
suggest you have an electrician have a look at your panel.


All I know is - I have a Siemens box as I said earlier in all this.
It has space for eight breakers, four on each of two sides. It has a
single ground buss. All work that had been done in it was done by
licensed (but maybe incompetent?) electrician. It was inspected, some
time ago.

A week or so ago, when I went into it to add a new breaker, I found
that (1) bare-copper ground wires and white neutral wires were both
all connected to that single buss. All of the buss connections were
used up. In fact, two wires (one bare, one white) had been doubled up
with other similar wires - two wires under each buss screw. So - when
I added my breaker, I figured I could add two more wires to the ground
buss similarly. Then I got to thinking - maybe I should add a small
ground buss to eliminate all the doubling up. I would need just a
six-connector second buss, four connectors for the doubled-up wires,
one on the second buss and one on the first buss to facilitate
connecting the second buss to the first, and one more to free up a
connector on the first buss by moving a ground wire from the first
buss to the second thereby freeing up a connector on the first buss to
accommodate connecting the second buss to it.

I hope this explains things clearly.

Thanks

Jethro

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.

On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.


So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.

Thanks

Jethro

Toller wrote:
TOM - you have scared the Hell out of me!

I have never seen a wire come off the buss, though I expect it can happen; I
have had them fall off breakers and it is not too different.
If it did, 999 times out of 1000 you would simply have a dead circuit if it
were a neutral. If it were a ground, you would probably never know, though
it would be pretty obvious if you ever encountered a situation where you
need a ground.

Even that 1 chance in 1000 probably wouldn't be serious. But of course, it
could be. Since you don't want to gamble with your life, it is important to
follow code.

So, be scared enough to follow code, but not scared enough to lose sleep.

About 3 months ago, being an electrician, I got a call to repair what
electrician's call
a "fire job".....where the Fire Department was called because of an
electrical fire. I talked to several witnesses who said that where the
fault occured in the circuit flames were shooting 20 feet. Even if
that was an exageration it was still shooting some serious flame.
Fortunately it was outside. Must have been a pretty good show since it
was dark when it happened. While fixing the circuit I noticed that the
equipment ground (bare) and the neutral (white) wires were landed under
the same screw on the busbar (as were many others). The neutral wire
was burnt about 12 inches. The connection was loose and corroded and
had a very high resistance. The resulting current during the fault was
under the 20 amp breaker limit, yet large enough to cause some serious
fire damage. So ,Wade, I don't know where you are getting your
numbers, but you are way off. It happens more than you know. All the
more reason to have electrical work done by qualified people.
Something that gets installed by hacks might take 5, 10, even 15 years
to burn.

On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.

So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.


My understanding was that you need keep the ground-buss and the
nuetral-buss separate in sub-panels, but that you can mix and
match in the main service panel, because that's the one and
only place where ground and nuetral are supposed to meet.
(which explains why service panels come with only one buss,
but doesn't explain why there's never enough holes in that buss.)

Further, I was under the impression that whether or not you
can end two wires in any one spot was a function of whether
the connector in question is rated for multiple wires.
Granted that most of them aren't. It SHOULDN'T make
any difference whether the wires in question are
nuetrals, grounds. Either the connection
method is reliable for two wires, and specified that way,
or it's not. (I can see not wanting to mix nuetrals
and grounds, on the theory that the pair might come loose
from the buss, but not from each other. That would be bad.)

Likewise, breakers may or may not be rated for two wires
under the screw. I'd expect most not to be, and any that
are should be labled to say so. I'll confess that I can't
think of all that many reasons to WANT to put two wires
under one breaker.

--Goedjn

Goedjn wrote:

On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:


grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.

So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.



My understanding was that you need keep the ground-buss and the
nuetral-buss separate in sub-panels, but that you can mix and
match in the main service panel, because that's the one and
only place where ground and nuetral are supposed to meet.
(which explains why service panels come with only one buss,
but doesn't explain why there's never enough holes in that buss.)

Further, I was under the impression that whether or not you
can end two wires in any one spot was a function of whether
the connector in question is rated for multiple wires.
Granted that most of them aren't. It SHOULDN'T make
any difference whether the wires in question are
nuetrals, grounds. Either the connection
method is reliable for two wires, and specified that way,
or it's not. (I can see not wanting to mix nuetrals
and grounds, on the theory that the pair might come loose
from the buss, but not from each other. That would be bad.)

Likewise, breakers may or may not be rated for two wires
under the screw. I'd expect most not to be, and any that
are should be labled to say so. I'll confess that I can't
think of all that many reasons to WANT to put two wires
under one breaker.

--Goedjn

All true except the NEC does not allow neutrals to be doubled up. The
label on the panel will indicate if multiple wires are permitted
elsewhere. Tom's post has the relevant code sections.

bud--

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:48:00 -0400, Goedjn wrote:


On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.

So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.


My understanding was that you need keep the ground-buss and the
nuetral-buss separate in sub-panels, but that you can mix and
match in the main service panel, because that's the one and
only place where ground and nuetral are supposed to meet.
(which explains why service panels come with only one buss,
but doesn't explain why there's never enough holes in that buss.)

Further, I was under the impression that whether or not you
can end two wires in any one spot was a function of whether
the connector in question is rated for multiple wires.
Granted that most of them aren't. It SHOULDN'T make
any difference whether the wires in question are
nuetrals, grounds. Either the connection
method is reliable for two wires, and specified that way,
or it's not. (I can see not wanting to mix nuetrals
and grounds, on the theory that the pair might come loose
from the buss, but not from each other. That would be bad.)

Likewise, breakers may or may not be rated for two wires
under the screw. I'd expect most not to be, and any that
are should be labled to say so. I'll confess that I can't
think of all that many reasons to WANT to put two wires
under one breaker.

--Goedjn

The new breaker I got for a square D QO panel is labeled.

2 wires: #14-#10 Cu
1 wi #14-#8 Al/Cu
--
102 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask be to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

Goedjn wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.
So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.


My understanding was that you need keep the ground-buss and the
nuetral-buss separate in sub-panels, but that you can mix and
match in the main service panel, because that's the one and
only place where ground and nuetral are supposed to meet.
(which explains why service panels come with only one buss,
but doesn't explain why there's never enough holes in that buss.)

Further, I was under the impression that whether or not you
can end two wires in any one spot was a function of whether
the connector in question is rated for multiple wires.
Granted that most of them aren't. It SHOULDN'T make
any difference whether the wires in question are
nuetrals, grounds. Either the connection
method is reliable for two wires, and specified that way,
or it's not. (I can see not wanting to mix neutrals
and grounds, on the theory that the pair might come loose
from the buss, but not from each other. That would be bad.)

Likewise, breakers may or may not be rated for two wires
under the screw. I'd expect most not to be, and any that
are should be labled to say so. I'll confess that I can't
think of all that many reasons to WANT to put two wires
under one breaker.

--Goedjn

Goedjn
The reason that some terminals in neutral buss bars are OK for two
Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) but not two Grounded Current
Carrying Conductors (neutrals) is that since neutrals carry current
under normal operating conditions the two neutral conductors might well
be expanding and contracting at different times and to different
degrees. That would cause the connection to loosen over time. EGCs on
the other hand only carry current under fault conditions for a very
brief time so sharing a terminal that is listed for two conductors is
permissible for EGCs but not for neutrals.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:52:08 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:48:00 -0400, Goedjn wrote:


On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.

So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.


My understanding was that you need keep the ground-buss and the
nuetral-buss separate in sub-panels, but that you can mix and
match in the main service panel, because that's the one and
only place where ground and nuetral are supposed to meet.
(which explains why service panels come with only one buss,
but doesn't explain why there's never enough holes in that buss.)

Further, I was under the impression that whether or not you
can end two wires in any one spot was a function of whether
the connector in question is rated for multiple wires.
Granted that most of them aren't. It SHOULDN'T make
any difference whether the wires in question are
nuetrals, grounds. Either the connection
method is reliable for two wires, and specified that way,
or it's not. (I can see not wanting to mix nuetrals
and grounds, on the theory that the pair might come loose
from the buss, but not from each other. That would be bad.)

Likewise, breakers may or may not be rated for two wires
under the screw. I'd expect most not to be, and any that
are should be labled to say so. I'll confess that I can't
think of all that many reasons to WANT to put two wires
under one breaker.

--Goedjn

The new breaker I got for a square D QO panel is labeled.

2 wires: #14-#10 Cu
1 wi #14-#8 Al/Cu


This for the ungrounded conductor, "hot", and once again, you must
follow the manufactures instructions, per code.

later,

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:48:00 -0400, Goedjn wrote:


On 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0700, "matt"
wrote:

grounding bar or lugs should have only bare copper wires only. as long
as the connection is good, it doesnt matter how many grounds per lug.
neutral bar should only have white wires, not doubled up.
breakers or fuses should have only black or red wires, not doubled up.

So you're saying that I really need two ground-busses - one for bare
copper ground wires (doubled up okay), and one for neutral white wires
(but not doubled up)? I think I can do that.

Of course none of my black (hot) wires are doubled up. That seems
common sense, at least to me.


My understanding was that you need keep the ground-buss and the
nuetral-buss separate in sub-panels, but that you can mix and
match in the main service panel, because that's the one and
only place where ground and nuetral are supposed to meet.
(which explains why service panels come with only one buss,
but doesn't explain why there's never enough holes in that buss.)

Further, I was under the impression that whether or not you
can end two wires in any one spot was a function of whether
the connector in question is rated for multiple wires.
Granted that most of them aren't. It SHOULDN'T make
any difference whether the wires in question are
nuetrals, grounds. Either the connection
method is reliable for two wires, and specified that way,
or it's not. (I can see not wanting to mix nuetrals
and grounds, on the theory that the pair might come loose
from the buss, but not from each other. That would be bad.)

Likewise, breakers may or may not be rated for two wires
under the screw. I'd expect most not to be, and any that
are should be labled to say so. I'll confess that I can't
think of all that many reasons to WANT to put two wires
under one breaker.

--Goedjn


Hiya

I have been away and am just now reading the various posts on my
query.

Thanks for your info. I don't know if my panel is a sub-panel of a
main-panel. You see, I live in a manufactured home that has a big
service panel inside the home that services everything within the
home. Then there is a second panel outside the home (on the side,
under the electric meter) that services mainly everything in a
separately built large garage. That box has a 200A main that, when
tripped, cuts off current to the other box in the house. That could
make this outside box a main service box, but if I didn't happen to
have a garage, then I guess the inside box would be the main.

Further, I had an electrician wire a porch addition I had done, and he
connected to the outside box. Further, I had another electrician
install a surge protector to protect my house, and he connected to the
same outside box.

All I wanted to do was add two 15A breakers to the outside box to
handle two new outlets I added - (1) for my porch window A/C and (2)
for my computers/printers. When I added the two breakers to the
outside box, it was then that I discovered the lack of sufficient buss
connections for the ground and neutral wires. I also discovered at
that time that the electricians I mentioned above had doubled up on
the bus connections for their work, and so, I assumed that I could
too. Now I see that is not entirely true, and since not true, I
thought I should add another buss to enable single wire connections on
all the busses. I have bought a buss, and #6 wire to connect it to
the present buss, and am waiting for news group comments before I
proceed.


Thanks

Jethro

Jethro wrote:
Hiya

I have been away and am just now reading the various posts on my
query.

Thanks for your info. I don't know if my panel is a sub-panel of a
main-panel. You see, I live in a manufactured home that has a big
service panel inside the home that services everything within the
home. Then there is a second panel outside the home (on the side,
under the electric meter) that services mainly everything in a
separately built large garage. That box has a 200A main that, when
tripped, cuts off current to the other box in the house. That could
make this outside box a main service box, but if I didn't happen to
have a garage, then I guess the inside box would be the main.

Further, I had an electrician wire a porch addition I had done, and he
connected to the outside box. Further, I had another electrician
install a surge protector to protect my house, and he connected to the
same outside box.

All I wanted to do was add two 15A breakers to the outside box to
handle two new outlets I added - (1) for my porch window A/C and (2)
for my computers/printers. When I added the two breakers to the
outside box, it was then that I discovered the lack of sufficient buss
connections for the ground and neutral wires. I also discovered at
that time that the electricians I mentioned above had doubled up on
the bus connections for their work, and so, I assumed that I could
too. Now I see that is not entirely true, and since not true, I
thought I should add another buss to enable single wire connections on
all the busses. I have bought a buss, and #6 wire to connect it to
the present buss, and am waiting for news group comments before I
proceed.

The outside box with the meter is the main service equipment. There
must be four wires in conduit feeding the inside box....2 hots, 1
neutral, and one equipment ground. The neutral and the equipment
ground must be separated in the inside panel. If you look under the
house where the inside box is located, you should also notice that
there is a solid bare copper wire that is attached to a lug that is
connected to the metal frame. That wire must also be connected to the
equipment grounding bar. Also your range and dryer, if electric, must
be 4-wire.

In the outside box, if you mounted the new equipment grounding busbar
to the metal cabinet via the factory mounting holes with the provided
machine screws, that should be sufficient. No harm in jumping over to
the existing busbar though.

On 18 Sep 2006 17:57:07 -0700, "volts500" wrote:


Jethro wrote:
Hiya

I have been away and am just now reading the various posts on my
query.

Thanks for your info. I don't know if my panel is a sub-panel of a
main-panel. You see, I live in a manufactured home that has a big
service panel inside the home that services everything within the
home. Then there is a second panel outside the home (on the side,
under the electric meter) that services mainly everything in a
separately built large garage. That box has a 200A main that, when
tripped, cuts off current to the other box in the house. That could
make this outside box a main service box, but if I didn't happen to
have a garage, then I guess the inside box would be the main.

Further, I had an electrician wire a porch addition I had done, and he
connected to the outside box. Further, I had another electrician
install a surge protector to protect my house, and he connected to the
same outside box.

All I wanted to do was add two 15A breakers to the outside box to
handle two new outlets I added - (1) for my porch window A/C and (2)
for my computers/printers. When I added the two breakers to the
outside box, it was then that I discovered the lack of sufficient buss
connections for the ground and neutral wires. I also discovered at
that time that the electricians I mentioned above had doubled up on
the bus connections for their work, and so, I assumed that I could
too. Now I see that is not entirely true, and since not true, I
thought I should add another buss to enable single wire connections on
all the busses. I have bought a buss, and #6 wire to connect it to
the present buss, and am waiting for news group comments before I
proceed.

The outside box with the meter is the main service equipment. There
must be four wires in conduit feeding the inside box....2 hots, 1
neutral, and one equipment ground. The neutral and the equipment
ground must be separated in the inside panel. If you look under the
house where the inside box is located, you should also notice that
there is a solid bare copper wire that is attached to a lug that is
connected to the metal frame. That wire must also be connected to the
equipment grounding bar. Also your range and dryer, if electric, must
be 4-wire.

In the outside box, if you mounted the new equipment grounding busbar
to the metal cabinet via the factory mounting holes with the provided
machine screws, that should be sufficient. No harm in jumping over to
the existing busbar though.


Thanks again everyone. I think I have a clear view now as to what I
have, and what I have to do.

Jethro