I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it
with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant
chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg

Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:11:10 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it
with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant
chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg

Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

The only thing I can think of is Unbleach.

My ex-girlfriend, who had no sense, used to use Anti-bleach, but like
I say, she was pretty stupid.

In my mother's day, all they had was Non-Bleach, which my mother used
at first, but then she told me that water was cheaper and just as
good.

"Danny D." wrote:
I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it
with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant
chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg

Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

Sodium sulfide, but leave immediately. Run.

Greg

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:11:10 +0000, Danny D. wrote:
Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

My Mum used to spray blue ammonia window solution on bleach spills.

Danny D. wrote:
I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it
with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant
chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg

Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts
bleach?

They sell a chlorine removal product for spas and pools. "Chlor-out" sodium
thiosulfate.

Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.

I've heard that a variety of chemicals collectively called "Antichlors" are used to remove excess bleach from textiles and paper pulp after beaching them, but that's about all I know about the stuff.

This web site:
Antichlor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

says that sodium metabisulfite can be used as an antichlor. Sodium metabisulfite can be purchased in any beer and wine making shop. It's dissolved in water and used to sterilize the beer or wine making equipement.



Sodium metabisufite is used to sterilize beer and wine making equipment because the sulphur dioxide gas it releases will kill bacteria, but isn't poisonous to us. In fact, sodium metabisulfite is used as a food additive, but I don't know how it's used in food.

On Apr 9, 11:28*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Danny D. wrote:
I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it
with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant
chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg

Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts
bleach?

They sell a chlorine removal product for spas and pools. "Chlor-out" sodium
thiosulfate.

Yes, that was what I was thinking too. Sodium thiosulfate is used
to lower the level of chlorine in a pool. I've never used it, but I
guess
it's for folks who shock it with chlorine and get it high before they
need to use it and they can't wait. The other question is what
effect
sodium thiosulfate itself might have on the carpet? Going back to the
acid/base thing, lye will neutralize acid. That works great in a test
tube. But probably not very practical for a carpet.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.

Urban legend.

There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not going to be more specific.

If you disagree with me, write the equation for the reaction.

On 4/9/2013 11:08 PM, Mohammad wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:11:10 +0000, Danny D. wrote:
Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

My Mum used to spray blue ammonia window solution on bleach spills.


That's cause yo mama was a mad bomber

On 4/10/2013 8:10 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.

Urban legend.

There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not going to be more specific.

If you disagree with me, write the equation for the reaction.


Take it from a retired chemist.
Mixing bleach and ammonia makes chloramine which is not only highly
toxic but also explosive.

On 4/10/2013 12:44 AM, nestork wrote:
I've heard that a variety of chemicals collectively called "Antichlors"
are used to remove excess bleach from textiles and paper pulp after
beaching them, but that's about all I know about the stuff.

This web site:
'Antichlor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichlor)

says that sodium metabisulfite can be used as an antichlor. Sodium
metabisulfite can be purchased in any beer and wine making shop. It's
dissolved in water and used to sterilize the beer or wine making
equipement.

[image:
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j0...y-Jiahua-.jpg]

Sodium metabisufite is used to sterilize beer and wine making equipment
because the sulphur dioxide gas it releases will kill bacteria, but
isn't poisonous to us. In fact, sodium metabisulfite is used as a food
additive, but I don't know how it's used in food.




It will neutralize bleach.
In food, it means that it can be used in quantities sufficient to
sterilize but not cause toxic effects. This is usually a few ppm.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:28:21 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/10/2013 8:10 AM, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.



Urban legend.



There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not going to be more specific.



If you disagree with me, write the equation for the reaction.





Take it from a retired chemist.

Mixing bleach and ammonia makes chloramine which is not only highly

toxic but also explosive.

Uh, yeah. That's why our municipal water supply uses chloramine in our drinking water as a disinfectant.

(for those who don't know: The chlorine formerly used to give us safe drinking water could react with organics in the water supply and produce THMs, which are thought to be carcinogenic. So most water supplies now use chloramine, a mixture of chlorine and ammonia. It is a much weaker disinfectant than chlorine but longer lasting. It's also much harder to keep regulated, which is why sometimes your water may smell like scotch or chlorine. And yes, chloramine is toxic - to koi. Not to much else in reasonable concentrations)

And again I say: urban legend, and I throw the BS flag on your chemistry degree. Do you really not know the effect of pH on the equilibrium solubility of chlorine? Even we stupid engineers have that one figured out.

On 4/10/2013 8:39 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:28:21 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/10/2013 8:10 AM, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.



Urban legend.



There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not going to be more specific.



If you disagree with me, write the equation for the reaction.





Take it from a retired chemist.

Mixing bleach and ammonia makes chloramine which is not only highly

toxic but also explosive.

Uh, yeah. That's why our municipal water supply uses chloramine in our drinking water as a disinfectant.

(for those who don't know: The chlorine formerly used to give us safe drinking water could react with organics in the water supply and produce THMs, which are thought to be carcinogenic. So most water supplies now use chloramine, a mixture of chlorine and ammonia. It is a much weaker disinfectant than chlorine but longer lasting. It's also much harder to keep regulated, which is why sometimes your water may smell like scotch or chlorine. And yes, chloramine is toxic - to koi. Not to much else in reasonable concentrations)

And again I say: urban legend, and I throw the BS flag on your chemistry degree. Do you really not know the effect of pH on the equilibrium solubility of chlorine? Even we stupid engineers have that one figured out.


Concentration, Moron. Nothing in ppm quantities is going to explode.
How about you dump a quart each of household ammonia and bleach into
your toilet and report back to us?

On Apr 10, 8:39Â*am, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:28:21 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/10/2013 8:10 AM, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.

Urban legend.

There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not going to be more specific.

If you disagree with me, write the equation for the reaction.

Take it from a retired chemist.

Mixing bleach and ammonia makes chloramine which is not only highly

toxic but also explosive.

Uh, yeah. Â*That's why our municipal water supply uses chloramine in our drinking water as a disinfectant.

You do realize that in drinking water the chloramine is
at a few PPM, don't you? How does that have anything
to do with inhaling a concentrated gas right in front
of you when you're mixing bleach and ammonia?
To follow that silly analogy, then chlorine gas is also harmless
because chlorine at a few PPM in drinking water is a safe
disinfectant.
We all know that chlorine gas is deadly.



(for those who don't know: Â*The chlorine formerly used to give us safe drinking water could react with organics in the water supply and produce THMs, which are thought to be carcinogenic. Â*So most water supplies now use chloramine, a mixture of chlorine and ammonia. Â*It is a much weaker disinfectant than chlorine but longer lasting. Â*It's also much harder to keep regulated, which is why sometimes your water may smell like scotch or chlorine. Â*And yes, chloramine is toxic Â*- to koi. Â*Not to much else in reasonable concentrations)

Who says the concentration is going to be "reasonable"
when you mix bleach and ammonia?





And again I say: Â*urban legend, and I throw the BS flag on your chemistry degree. Â*Do you really not know the effect of pH on the equilibrium solubility of chlorine? Â*Even we stupid engineers have that one figured out.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


It would be the first urban legend that has numerous govt
sources, health sources, chemists, etc all saying it's true.
And with the medical reports to back it up.
You asked for the specific chemical reactions, here is
one source from a PHD:

http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicc...nd-Ammonia.htm

Chemicals Involved
Note that each and every one of these chemicals is toxic, except for
the water and salt.

€¢NH3 = ammonia
€¢HCl = hydrochloric acid
€¢NaOCl = sodium hypochlorite (bleach)
€¢Cl = chlorine
€¢Cl2 = chlorine gas
€¢NH2Cl = chloramine
€¢N2H4 = hydrazine
€¢NaCl = sodium chloride or salt
€¢H2O = water

Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia
The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid, which reacts with
ammonia to form toxic chloramine fumes:
First the hydrochloric acid is formed:

NaOCl †’ NaOH + HOCl

HOCl †’ HCl + O

And then the ammonia and chlorine gas react to form chloramine, which
is released as a vapor:

NaOCl + 2HCl †’ Cl2 + NaCl + H2O

2NH3 + Cl2 †’ 2NH2Cl



And here is an example of the real world results from the New England
Journal of Medicine:


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...99909093411115


Severe Lung Injury after Exposure to Chloramine Gas from Household
Cleaners

N Engl J Med 1999; 341:848-849September 9, 1999DOI: 10.1056/
NEJM199909093411115


The inhalation of the noxious fumes associated with the mixing of
household cleaners can lead to pulmonary irritation and pneumonitis.
Household ammonia (3 to 10 percent aqueous NH3) and bleach (5 percent
NaOCl) are two of the most common cleaning agents. Combining them
releases chloramine gas, which is a combination of monochloramines
(NH2Cl) and dichloramines (NHCl2). When inhaled, chloramines react
with the moisture of the respiratory tract to release ammonia (NH3),
hydrochloric acid (HCl), and oxygen free radicals. Typically,
exposures to low concentrations of chloramines produce only mild
respiratory tract irritation. In higher concentrations, the
combination of hydrochloric acid, ammonia, and oxygen free radicals
may cause corrosive effects and cellular injury, resulting in
pneumonitis and edema.1-4

Emergency tracheostomy was required in a patient because of upper-
airway compromise induced by chloramine gas. The patient, a previously
healthy 53-year-old woman, was cleaning a walk-in freezer at her
workplace with over-the-counter liquid ammonia and bleach. The door to
the freezer was closed, and there was no air exchange with the
outside. Approximately 30 minutes after beginning to clean, she noted
shortness of breath and called 911. Over the next three hours, she had
increased tightness of the throat and became unable to speak above a
whisper. Despite aggressive use of nebulized albuterol,
racepinephrine, and intravenous steroids, her symptoms progressively
worsened. Rapid-sequence intubation was attempted but was unsuccessful
because of swelling of the upper airway. Emergency tracheostomy was
performed. The initial chest radiograph was unremarkable, but
radiologic evidence of pneumonitis developed over the next four hours
(Figure 1Figure 1Chest X-Ray Film Showing Changes Characteristic of
Pneumonitis Four Hours after Exposure to Chloramine Gas from Household
Cleaners.). At the time the second radiograph was obtained, the
arterial-blood gas showed a pH of 7.23, partial pressure of carbon
dioxide of 49 mm Hg, and partial pressure of oxygen of 102 mm Hg while
the patient was breathing 100 percent oxygen with assisted
ventilation. The patient received supportive care. Her tracheostomy
was removed within five days, and she was discharged from the hospital
within seven days."


I suppose the NEJM just made up all that. And you can find plenty of
other stories where similar happened.

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:12:55 -0700 wrote:

Who says the concentration is going to be "reasonable"
when you mix bleach and ammonia?

I looked up what bleach & ammonia does together:
http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicc...nd-Ammonia.htm
and, "in quantity" it would be a bad thing.

But I think safety is a moot point simply because we're talking about
fewer than 5 or 10 drops of bleach on a carpet, which is then soaked
with the un-chlorine solution, whatever that might be.

The purpose is simply to save the carpet - and it would be easy
to vent the fumes, whatever few their may be from the tiny amount
of bleach compared to the amount of un-bleach used.

So far, the 'unbleach' suggestions seems to be:
- Water
- Ammonia
- Sodium sulfide
- Sodium metabisulfite
- Sodium thiosulfate
- ?

Since the solution has to be readily available in the household,
it seems like only the ammonia is something we'd have on hand
were a few drops of bleach to be accidentally spilled on the carpet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#...l_interactions

I will try it (OUTSIDE!) on a dyed towel and report back for
the team (with pictures). (If I don't report back ... )

On 4/10/2013 7:19 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:12:55 -0700 wrote:

Who says the concentration is going to be "reasonable"
when you mix bleach and ammonia?

I looked up what bleach & ammonia does together:
http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicc...nd-Ammonia.htm
and, "in quantity" it would be a bad thing.

But I think safety is a moot point simply because we're talking about
fewer than 5 or 10 drops of bleach on a carpet, which is then soaked
with the un-chlorine solution, whatever that might be.

The purpose is simply to save the carpet - and it would be easy
to vent the fumes, whatever few their may be from the tiny amount
of bleach compared to the amount of un-bleach used.

So far, the 'unbleach' suggestions seems to be:
- Water
- Ammonia
- Sodium sulfide
- Sodium metabisulfite
- Sodium thiosulfate
- ?

Since the solution has to be readily available in the household,
it seems like only the ammonia is something we'd have on hand
were a few drops of bleach to be accidentally spilled on the carpet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#...l_interactions

I will try it (OUTSIDE!) on a dyed towel and report back for
the team (with pictures). (If I don't report back ... )


sodium thiosulfate is sold in pet stores cheaply. it's used to remove
chlorine and chloromine from water for fish tanks.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:12:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
You asked for the specific chemical reactions, here is

one source from a PHD:



http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicc...nd-Ammonia.htm


Yup, I read that site. Shockingly poor information.



Chemicals Involved

Note that each and every one of these chemicals is toxic, except for

Yup. Toxic. But found in very low concentrations. Why even mention it, if you're not going to include any real information?



Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia


Likely? What kind of language is that, from a supposed chemist? Do the math. Write the equation, show the change in Gibbs energy, you can predict exactly what reaction will occur. Not which ones are likely.

The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid,

Yes. The necessary first step, without which all the following steps fail. What causes that? Under what conditions will it occur? Nothing but silence from this supposed PhD chemist. Because she really doesn't know, she's just passing on urban legend and adding some plausible pseudoscience to it.. What does "decompose" mean, anyway? Is that a chemical term? We learned dissociate in about 6th grade. No real chemist would say decompose. A mortician or a musician, maybe.

Hint: the equilibrium will shift to HCl at low pH, usually below 5. Ammonia is about 11.

No point in continuing. Even a casual reading of that web article shows the kind of sloppy writing and sloppy thinking not used in real science.

Not that I'm a real scientist.

Toilet bowl cleaners are acid, in the pH range of 2 to 3. That's the real cause of most of the reported accidents. If ammonia was even present it was usually a coincidence. But this supposed chemist didn't know about bowl cleaners.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:19:18 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
Since the solution has to be readily available in the household,

it seems like only the ammonia is something we'd have on hand

were a few drops of bleach to be accidentally spilled on the carpet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#...l_interactions



I will try it (OUTSIDE!) on a dyed towel and report back for

the team (with pictures). (If I don't report back ... )

Good idea. I didn't realize at first what you're trying to do - you're just trying to keep a few drops of bleach from leaving a mark on carpet.

Let us know what the ammonia does. Thinking out loud, based on the pH involved (bleach is about 12) you might also want to run a test with vinegar, another household chemical you probably have handy.

On Apr 10, 10:30*am, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:12:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
You asked for the specific chemical reactions, here is

one source from a PHD:

http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicc...leach-And-Ammo...

Yup, I read that site. *Shockingly poor information.



Chemicals Involved

Note that each and every one of these chemicals is toxic, except for

Yup. *Toxic. *But found in very low concentrations. *Why even mention it, if you're not going to include any real information?

Found in low concentrations where? YOU stated that it's an urban
legend
that mixinng ammonia and bleach is dangerous. If you mix ammonia
and bleach you can create gas in high enough concentrations that it
can
seriously injure you or kill you. As for not including any real
information,
that would be you. Just google and you'll find credible sources from
NEJM to govt agencies all saying it's dangerous to mix ammonia and
bleach. I provided you with two such links. Where is YOUR source
that says it's an urban legend that mixing ammonia and bleach can
produce dangerous gasses?






Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia

Likely? *What kind of language is that, from a supposed chemist? *Do the math. *Write the equation, show the change in Gibbs energy, you can predict exactly what reaction will occur. *Not which ones are likely.

So typical. He asks for the equations and now he just
ignores it. Show us the sources that agree with you.




*The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid,

Yes. *The necessary first step, without which all the following steps fail. *What causes that? *Under what conditions will it occur? *Nothing but silence from this supposed PhD chemist. *Because she really doesn't know, she's just passing on urban legend and adding some plausible pseudoscience to it. *What does "decompose" mean, anyway? *Is that a chemical term? *We learned dissociate in about 6th grade. *No real chemist would say decompose. *A mortician or a musician, maybe.

Hint: *the equilibrium will shift to HCl at low pH, usually below 5. *Ammonia is about 11.

No point in continuing. *Even a casual reading of that web article shows the kind of sloppy writing and sloppy thinking not used in real science.

Not that I'm a real scientist.

That you're an idiot was apparent rom the moment you tried to
use the fact that because something is added to drinking water in the
PPM range, that means it's a safe substance when inhaled at
concentrations
5 orders or magnitude greater, from a bucket in front of you.






Toilet bowl cleaners are acid, in the pH range of 2 to 3. *That's the real cause of most of the reported accidents. *If ammonia was even present it was usually a coincidence. *But this supposed chemist didn't know about bowl cleaners.

Sure, so the NEJM case report where mixing ammonia and bleach for
cleaning nearly killed a woman, required her to be hospitalized on
respiratory
support, etc, is just a lie. So are all the other similar reports
that are
available online from news sources, etc.

You really are an imbecile and a dangerous one at that.

On Apr 10, 10:36*am, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:19:18 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
Since the solution has to be readily available in the household,

it seems like only the ammonia is something we'd have on hand

were a few drops of bleach to be accidentally spilled on the carpet.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#...l_interactions

I will try it (OUTSIDE!) on a dyed towel and report back for

the team (with pictures). *(If I don't report back ... )

Good idea. *I didn't realize at first what you're trying to do - you're just trying to keep a few drops of bleach from leaving a mark on carpet.

This from the imbecile telling people it's an urban legend
that mixing bleach and ammonia is dangerous. You can't
even read a simple question that everyone else here understood.

wrote:
Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously.

Sodium thiosulfate is ammonia?

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:46:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Just google and you'll find credible sources from

NEJM to govt agencies all saying it's dangerous to mix ammonia and

bleach. I provided you with two such links.

No, you didn't.

You can't believe everything you read on the internet, including stuff that comes from me.

Your very first link is so badly written your BS detector should have pegged immediately. The fact you didn't notice pretty much ended your credibility, and I didn't pay enough attention to your second link, which was a bit better.

Look, this ammonia and bleach thing has been discussed on the net for decades. Even Uncle Al has weighed in. Much garbage has been written about various toxic gases supposedly produced, most of it totally silly. I mean, phosgene? really?

In some isolated cases, with high usage in a confined space, there have been some medical cases. There have been just as many with ammonia alone under similar circumstances. It's not a good idea to mix the two - but it's not the deadly hazard often claimed. That woman was in a closed freezer with no ventilation for 30 minutes? Doh.

And it's not explosive. Sure, pure chloramine is, at least the trichloro form, but nothing you or I can do will produce that.

And it's dangerous misinformation, because there IS a combination of household chemicals that WILL get you in trouble fast.

On Apr 9, 9:44*pm, nestork wrote:
I've heard that a variety of chemicals collectively called "Antichlors"
are used to remove excess bleach from textiles and paper pulp after
beaching them, but that's about all I know about the stuff.

This web site:
'Antichlor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichlor)

says that sodium metabisulfite can be used as an antichlor. *Sodium
metabisulfite can be purchased in any beer and wine making shop. *It's
dissolved in water and used to sterilize the beer or wine making
equipement.

[image:http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j0...tabisulfit...]

Sodium metabisufite is used to sterilize beer and wine making equipment
because the sulphur dioxide gas it releases will kill bacteria, but
isn't poisonous to us. *In fact, sodium metabisulfite is used as a food
additive, but I don't know how it's used in food.

--
nestork

it CAN trigger severe asthma attack.

On Apr 10, 7:19*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:12:55 -0700 wrote:

Who says the concentration is going to be "reasonable"
when you mix bleach and ammonia?

I looked up what bleach & ammonia does together:
*http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicc...leach-And-Ammo....
and, "in quantity" it would be a bad thing.

But I think safety is a moot point simply because we're talking about
fewer than 5 or 10 drops of bleach on a carpet, which is then soaked
with the un-chlorine solution, whatever that might be.

The purpose is simply to save the carpet - and it would be easy
to vent the fumes, whatever few their may be from the tiny amount
of bleach compared to the amount of un-bleach used.

So far, the 'unbleach' suggestions seems to be:
- Water
- Ammonia
- Sodium sulfide
- Sodium metabisulfite
- Sodium thiosulfate
- ?

Since the solution has to be readily available in the household,
it seems like only the ammonia is something we'd have on hand
were a few drops of bleach to be accidentally spilled on the carpet.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#...l_interactions

I will try it (OUTSIDE!) on a dyed towel and report back for
the team (with pictures). *(If I don't report back ... )

When we lived in a flat, the carpet was NOT resistant to bleach, a
little bit not only changed the color, but dissolved it! down to the
backing mat. Carpet unknown origin. Presently, we moved into a home
with a high quality, 'mauve' desert colored carpet throughout sections
[big mistake in Arizona environment!] This carpet only slightly
changed color when over half a cup of bleach dripped onto it once
overnight! But since it does change color, for those occasional
spills, we used to use chemicals to 'negate' the bleach but found that
somehow that seemed to accelerate a slight color change. We abandoned
chemicals and went to distilled water, as much and as fast as you can,
then suck up with our carpet clearner - essentially a wet 'n' dry
vacuum. Then do it again. THAT process seems to be the best.
1. pour distilled water onto the spots, wetting ocmpletely.
2. suck up with carpet vacuum [we have a professional unit cost around
$4k, worth its weight in gold]
3. repeat, repeat.
Then use the incident as an excuse to do the whole room, keeps carpet
looking new.

On Apr 10, 10:57*am, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:46:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Just google and you'll find credible sources from



NEJM to govt agencies all saying it's dangerous to mix ammonia and

bleach. *I provided you with two such links.

No, you didn't.

Yes I did liar. YOU have provided no sources, nothing, to back up
your claim that it's an urban myth that mixing bleach and ammonia
can seriously harm you.




You can't believe everything you read on the internet, including stuff that comes from me.

A strawman. No one here is suggesting anyone should believe
everything they read on the internet. But anyone with google can
find countless CREDIBLE sources for the fact that mixing ammonia
with bleach can produce gas that is deadly. Those sources include
the case report I gave you from the NEJM. Just how stupid are you?




Your very first link is so badly written your BS detector should have pegged immediately. *The fact you didn't notice pretty much ended your credibility, and I didn't pay enough attention to your second link, which was a bit better.

There was nothing BS about either of the links. You wanted chemical
equations, the PHD supplied them. The fact that you don't accept
them
matters not a wit.

Now as for credibility, it was YOU who implied that because something
is used in drinking water to disinfect it, that means that compound is
not
dangerous. What kind of idiot would ignore the fact that the
concentrations
in drinking water are in the PPM range, while what you get out of a
bucket
mixed in front of you is obviously many orders of magnitude greater.
Chlorine gas can be used in drinking water. Even a fool knows that
whiffing it out of a bucket, it could kill you.




Look, this ammonia and bleach thing has been discussed on the net for decades. *Even Uncle Al has weighed in. *Much garbage has been written about various toxic gases supposedly produced, most of it totally silly. *I mean, phosgene? *really?


Read the NEJM article of the woman who nearly died, imbecile.




In some isolated cases, with high usage in a confined space, there have been some medical cases. *There have been just as many with ammonia alone under similar circumstances. *It's not a good idea to mix the two - but it's not the deadly hazard often claimed. *That woman was in a closed freezer with no ventilation for 30 minutes? *Doh.

Sure, who knows better, the Drs and experts that treated the patient
and
found it important to publish, or you?


Here's more for you, from the LA Times:



A Deadly Mix of Household Cleansers : Poisonings Result When Products
Are Combined

February 04, 1986|ALLAN PARACHINI | Times Staff Writer


http://articles.latimes.com/1986-02-...sehold-cleaner



A report about three women who nearly died because they mixed ammonia-
based cleaners and laundry bleach has brought renewed warnings by
poison experts of the potentially deadly dangers of combining
seemingly innocuous household products.

And at the same time, poison center officials in Los Angeles and
Denver agreed that reactions, ranging from nose and throat irritation
to death, are so common among victims of such inadvertent chemical
accidents that they are an almost daily occurrence.

The first of the two reactions was the cause of the three new cases
reported in Chest by Drs. George Reisz and Roger Gammon of the
University of Missouri's pulmonary division. In all three cases, women
cleaning their homes had mixed bleach and ammonia cleaners together,
believing that the combination would improve results.

Instead, the women involved cleaned for several hours in small rooms
with little ventilation--not realizing that slight differences in the
chemistry of ammonia cleaners and bleach lead to a reaction when the
two are combined that produces a gas called chloramine, which can
quickly have potentially deadly effects.

In one case, the victim continued cleaning even though a young man
helping her stopped almost immediately, complaining of eye, nose and
throat irritation. All three women eventually collapsed and were taken
to hospitals by paramedics. In the emergency room, doctors mistook the
symptoms for signs of respiratory distress unrelated to chemical
exposure in all cases.

All three eventually recovered, but they had average hospital stays of
nearly 27 days.






And it's not explosive. *Sure, pure chloramine is, at least the trichloro form, but nothing you or I can do will produce that.

And it's dangerous misinformation, because there IS a combination of household chemicals that WILL get you in trouble fast.


You've earned your addition to the list of the true village idiots.

You didn't provide two good links. You provided one bull**** link and one slightly better one. No lie here.

I'm not the only one skeptical of that "chemist." Here's a snip from a similar thread to this one:

**********
Ann Marie, you have performed an amazing feat. You say:

Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia
The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid, which reacts with ammonia to form toxic chloramine fumes:

First the hydrochloric acid is formed:
NaOCl †’ NaOH + HOCl
HOCl †’ HCl + O

In my 40 year career as an industrial chemist I have never met anyone before who could take two alkaline materials (sodium hypochlorite and ammonium hydroxide) and mix them together to form an acid! I have a favor to ask €“ I have a large lead brick that I would like to send you so you can turn it into gold for me. Ill help you with the equation: Lead + magic = gold
*****************

Now, in all the years we've been discussing this, and all the years before the internet that bleach and ammonia have been used, what is the number of deaths?

Still zero.

(deaths from other combinations are NOT zero)

On Apr 10, 12:01Â*pm, TimR wrote:
You didn't provide two good links. Â*You provided one bull**** link and one slightly better one. Â*No lie here.

I'm not the only one skeptical of that "chemist." Â*Here's a snip from a similar thread to this one:

**********
Ann Marie, you have performed an amazing feat. You say:

Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia
Â*The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid, which reacts with ammonia to form toxic chloramine fumes:

First the hydrochloric acid is formed:
Â*NaOCl †’ NaOH + HOCl
Â*HOCl †’ HCl + O

In my 40 year career as an industrial chemist I have never met anyone before who could take two alkaline materials (sodium hypochlorite and ammonium hydroxide) and mix them together to form an acid! I have a favor to ask €“ I have a large lead brick that I would like to send you so you can turn it into gold for me. Ill help you with the equation: Lead + magic = gold
*****************

Now, in all the years we've been discussing this, and all the years before the internet that bleach and ammonia have been used, what is the number of deaths?

Still zero.

(deaths from other combinations are NOT zero)

THAT is your source? I give you the NEJM and you come up with a
quote from a discussion thread like this? You place credibility in
THAT
versus the NEJM and the dozens of govt agencies, health authorities
that you can find with a simple google?

Here is another example:


http://www.nj.gov/health/eoh/cehsweb/bleach_fs.pdf

What are the dangers of mixing these common cleaning
products?

Mixing bleach and ammonia:
When bleach is mixed with ammonia, toxic gases called chloramines are
produced. Exposure to
chloramine gases can cause:
€¢ coughing
€¢ shortness of breath
€¢ chest pain
€¢ wheezing
€¢ nausea
€¢ watery eyes
€¢ irritation to the throat, nose and eyes
€¢ pneumonia and fluid in the lung


You think the state of NJ is just making this up?
Your source for that no such effects exist, as you claim?

crickets......


You really, really are the village idiot!

On 4/10/2013 10:50 AM, wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:36 am, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:19:18 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
Since the solution has to be readily available in the household,

it seems like only the ammonia is something we'd have on hand

were a few drops of bleach to be accidentally spilled on the carpet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#...l_interactions

I will try it (OUTSIDE!) on a dyed towel and report back for

the team (with pictures). (If I don't report back ... )

Good idea. I didn't realize at first what you're trying to do - you're just trying to keep a few drops of bleach from leaving a mark on carpet.

This from the imbecile telling people it's an urban legend
that mixing bleach and ammonia is dangerous. You can't
even read a simple question that everyone else here understood.




His knowledge of chemistry is below grade school level.

Chloramine generated by using ammonia, even is small quantities where
toxicity and explosion hazards are minimal is still a strong oxidizing
agent which would be harmful to dyed fibers.

No only is he ignorant, he flaunts it

On 4/10/2013 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:01 pm, TimR wrote:
You didn't provide two good links. You provided one bull**** link and one slightly better one. No lie here.

I'm not the only one skeptical of that "chemist." Here's a snip from a similar thread to this one:

**********
Ann Marie, you have performed an amazing feat. You say:

Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia
The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid, which reacts with ammonia to form toxic chloramine fumes:

First the hydrochloric acid is formed:
NaOCl †’ NaOH + HOCl
HOCl †’ HCl + O

In my 40 year career as an industrial chemist I have never met anyone before who could take two alkaline materials (sodium hypochlorite and ammonium hydroxide) and mix them together to form an acid! I have a favor to ask €“ I have a large lead brick that I would like to send you so you can turn it into gold for me. Ill help you with the equation: Lead + magic = gold
*****************

Now, in all the years we've been discussing this, and all the years before the internet that bleach and ammonia have been used, what is the number of deaths?

Still zero.

(deaths from other combinations are NOT zero)

THAT is your source? I give you the NEJM and you come up with a
quote from a discussion thread like this? You place credibility in
THAT
versus the NEJM and the dozens of govt agencies, health authorities
that you can find with a simple google?

Here is another example:


http://www.nj.gov/health/eoh/cehsweb/bleach_fs.pdf

What are the dangers of mixing these common cleaning
products?

Mixing bleach and ammonia:
When bleach is mixed with ammonia, toxic gases called chloramines are
produced. Exposure to
chloramine gases can cause:
€¢ coughing
€¢ shortness of breath
€¢ chest pain
€¢ wheezing
€¢ nausea
€¢ watery eyes
€¢ irritation to the throat, nose and eyes
€¢ pneumonia and fluid in the lung


You think the state of NJ is just making this up?
Your source for that no such effects exist, as you claim?

crickets......


You really, really are the village idiot!


Many year ago I was present in the chemistry department at CWRU when a
graduate student down the hall of the floor I was on was injured in an
explosion making chloramine for further reaction from bleach and
ammonia. He was cut but not seriously as all safety precautions like
ventilation and shields were in place.

On 4/9/2013 8:11 PM, Danny D. wrote:
I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it
with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant
chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg

Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

There's a product sold for aquariums that neutralizes chlorine &
chloramines in water, that I use for watering my plants. I suppose that
would work.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:09:54 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
His knowledge of chemistry is below grade school level.



Chloramine generated by using ammonia, even is small quantities where

toxicity and explosion hazards are minimal is still a strong oxidizing

agent which would be harmful to dyed fibers.


Let me try some elementary logic here.

Chlorine is used to treat drinking water because it is toxic. It kills stuff, the nasty stuff that would make us sick. I'm using nontechnical terms, some of you are homeschooled.

Chloramine is used to replace chlorine in drinking water. It is not as good. It is nowhere near as toxic, so only a weak disinfectant. It still kills stuff, though not as thoroughly. It is used because it has less environmental impact, not because it's the most effective choice.

You can make either out of bleach.

You could convert most of the hypochlorite.....oops.........well, you could convert most of the bleachey chemical that contains the chlorine to gas by mixing it with the right household cleaner AND reducing the pH. If you were using a strong bleach concentration, that would be a risky thing to do. Chlorine gas is not only a health hazard but has been known to cause death in precisely this scenario.

Or, you could mix the bleach with ammonia. Then (depending on temperature, pH, and relative concentrations) you will convert SOME of the bleachey chemical that contains chlorine to chloramine. You will have less quantity of a less toxic gas. It is strongly irritating, has caused some hospitalizations in confined spaces, and is not known to have actually caused death.

So which would you prefer?

It isn't an urban legend that mixing chlorine and bleach is a bad idea. But it is an urban legend that it makes mustard gas, hydrazine, explosives, lethal levels of chloramine, etc. And the focus on ammonia hides the fact that there are LOTS worse things to mix bleach with.

On Apr 10, 3:38*pm, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:09:54 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
His knowledge of chemistry is below grade school level.

Chloramine generated by using ammonia, even is small quantities where

toxicity and explosion hazards are minimal is still a strong oxidizing

agent which would be harmful to dyed fibers.

Let me try some elementary logic here.

Chlorine is used to treat drinking water because it is toxic. *It kills stuff, the nasty stuff that would make us sick. *I'm using nontechnical terms, some of you are homeschooled.

Chloramine is used to replace chlorine in drinking water. *It is not as good. *It is nowhere near as toxic, so only a weak disinfectant. *It still kills stuff, though not as thoroughly. *It is used because it has less environmental impact, not because it's the most effective choice.

You can make either out of bleach.

You could convert most of the hypochlorite.....oops.........well, you could convert most of the bleachey chemical that contains the chlorine to gas by mixing it with the right household cleaner AND reducing the pH. *If you were using a strong bleach concentration, that would be a risky thing to do. Chlorine gas is not only a health hazard but has been known to cause death in precisely this scenario.

Or, you could mix the bleach with ammonia. *Then (depending on temperature, pH, and relative concentrations) you will convert SOME of the bleachey chemical that contains chlorine to chloramine. *You will have less quantity of a less toxic gas. *It is strongly irritating, has caused some hospitalizations in confined spaces, and is not known to have actually caused death.

So which would you prefer?

It isn't an urban legend that mixing chlorine and bleach is a bad idea. *But it is an urban legend that it makes mustard gas, hydrazine, explosives, lethal levels of chloramine, etc. *And the focus on ammonia hides the fact that there are LOTS worse things to mix bleach with.

Oh, wow, I see, so now there are some things worse than ammonia to
mix bleach with. That's like saying it's an urban legend that
getting shot
with a 22 can kill you because a 44 magnum is worse. Let's recap what
you posted, shall we? First
poster missingch:

"Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously. "

Tim R:

"Urban legend.
There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not
going to be more specific. "

Then you did everything you could to deny that it could
in fact kill you. Denying the many citations that say it can
in fact kill you or seriously injure you, including ignoring the
NEJM case report of a woman who nearly died and spent
weeks in the hospital with lung damage from mixing ammonia
and bleach.


You are indeed the village idiot.

On 4/10/2013 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Apr 10, 3:38 pm, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:09:54 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
His knowledge of chemistry is below grade school level.

Chloramine generated by using ammonia, even is small quantities where

toxicity and explosion hazards are minimal is still a strong oxidizing

agent which would be harmful to dyed fibers.

Let me try some elementary logic here.

Chlorine is used to treat drinking water because it is toxic. It kills stuff, the nasty stuff that would make us sick. I'm using nontechnical terms, some of you are homeschooled.

Chloramine is used to replace chlorine in drinking water. It is not as good. It is nowhere near as toxic, so only a weak disinfectant. It still kills stuff, though not as thoroughly. It is used because it has less environmental impact, not because it's the most effective choice.

You can make either out of bleach.

You could convert most of the hypochlorite.....oops.........well, you could convert most of the bleachey chemical that contains the chlorine to gas by mixing it with the right household cleaner AND reducing the pH. If you were using a strong bleach concentration, that would be a risky thing to do. Chlorine gas is not only a health hazard but has been known to cause death in precisely this scenario.

Or, you could mix the bleach with ammonia. Then (depending on temperature, pH, and relative concentrations) you will convert SOME of the bleachey chemical that contains chlorine to chloramine. You will have less quantity of a less toxic gas. It is strongly irritating, has caused some hospitalizations in confined spaces, and is not known to have actually caused death.

So which would you prefer?

It isn't an urban legend that mixing chlorine and bleach is a bad idea. But it is an urban legend that it makes mustard gas, hydrazine, explosives, lethal levels of chloramine, etc. And the focus on ammonia hides the fact that there are LOTS worse things to mix bleach with.

Oh, wow, I see, so now there are some things worse than ammonia to
mix bleach with. That's like saying it's an urban legend that
getting shot
with a 22 can kill you because a 44 magnum is worse. Let's recap what
you posted, shall we? First
poster missingch:

"Do not mix bleach and ammonia unless you want to die. Seriously."

Tim R:

"Urban legend.
There ARE some mixtures of products that are dangerous, but I'm not
going to be more specific. "

Then you did everything you could to deny that it could
in fact kill you. Denying the many citations that say it can
in fact kill you or seriously injure you, including ignoring the
NEJM case report of a woman who nearly died and spent
weeks in the hospital with lung damage from mixing ammonia
and bleach.


You are indeed the village idiot.



No sense trying to logically argue with him. He's incredibly dense.
Lets just hope no one follows his advice.

TimR wrote in
:

You didn't provide two good links. You provided one bull****
link and one slightly better one. No lie here.

I'm not the only one skeptical of that "chemist." Here's a snip
from a similar thread to this one:

**********
Ann Marie, you have performed an amazing feat. You say:

Likely Chemical Reactions from Mixing Bleach and Ammonia
The bleach decomposes to form hydrochloric acid, which reacts
with ammonia to form toxic chloramine fumes:

First the hydrochloric acid is formed:
NaOCl †’ NaOH + HOCl
HOCl †’ HCl + O

In my 40 year career as an industrial chemist I have never met
anyone before who could take two alkaline materials (sodium
hypochlorite and ammonium hydroxide) and mix them together to
form an acid!

Well, speaking of bullsh*t... obviously neither you nor the author
of that bunch of nonsense is really a chemist, despite your claims
to be. I am not, and do not claim to be, a chemist -- but I do
remember a few things from General Chem during my freshman year,
one of them being that an aqueous solution of ammonium hydroxide
is an example of what chemists call an amphoteric substance: it
reacts as a base in the presence of strong acids, and as an acid
in the presence of strong bases. Thus, ammonium hydroxide *will*
react with sodium hypochlorite, your insane delusions to the
contrary notwithstanding.

Out of curiosity I took a look at a label on a bottle of bleach.
I'll leave it to Numbnuts to read what they say not to mix bleach with.

Also maybe he will take a look at the Clorox MSDS:

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/down...leach0809_.pdf

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:59:40 -0400, Frank
wrote:

Out of curiosity I took a look at a label on a bottle of bleach.
I'll leave it to Numbnuts to read what they say not to mix bleach with.

Also maybe he will take a look at the Clorox MSDS:

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/down...leach0809_.pdf

Mom told me to never mix bleach and ammonia. Mom knows best!

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:11:10 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
I spilled a few drops of bleach on the rug, and immediately flushed it

with water, but the thought came to me that there might be an instant

chemical "antidote" to bleach (like there is with an acid:base).

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12653214.jpg



Is there something (other than water dilution) that counteracts bleach?

The sun.
If oxygen does not work, use a shot gun.

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:24:57 -0700 Robert Macy wrote:

1. pour distilled water onto the spots, wetting ocmpletely.

I'm curious why distilled water?

I assume speed is of the essence, when drops of bleach spill
on the carpet, so I would think, if the solution is dilution,
that plain old regular water would be as good and certainly
quicker.

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 05:10:04 -0700 wrote:

The other question is what effect sodium thiosulfate itself
might have on the carpet? Going back to the acid/base thing,
lye will neutralize acid. That works great in a test
tube. But probably not very practical for a carpet.

UPDATE:
I don't have a picture yet because I just now put the test towel
towel in the wash, but here's what I did as a basic experiment.
(I'll have a picture in about an hour when it's all
washed and dried.)

As a very crude test, I placed a blue bath town on a slight
slope outside and started dropping bleach drops onto it, but
then I realized the bleach drops were spreading and coalescing
into one another and I hadn't thought ahead to mark the spots
anyway ... so I got a bit impatient and just dumped about a
cup of the household bleach onto the bath towel.

I waited about two or three minutes (which is about the right
amount of panic time were that to happen on my carpet), and then
I poured an equal amount of white ammonia onto the same area.

I waited about an hour, and, to stop the reaction, I flooded
the whole thing with a strong stream of water from a garden
hose (which turned out to be a mistake as it made the towel
all muddy).

Then, I put the mess in the wash with other soiled clothes;
so it's in the middle of its 90-minute cycle right now. In
hind sight, I should have done a control, but I didn't
think of that at the time of the test earlier today.

When it's all done and dried, I'll snap a photo and post
the results. I guess what I'm looking for is for bleach spots
to NOT show up - but I'll wait for the test results before
making any assumptions.