On Nov 25, 5:10*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 01:58:53 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:
On 11-24-2012 21:54, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
In my case, what momentarily confused me was that I was not
trying to drive faster. *In fact, I was paying close attention to
not varying the power at all (to avoid loosing traction).

If you have room, i.e., not a lot of traffic, front-wheel drive and
cruise control is great.

If the drive wheels begin to slip, CC keeps them going at a speed
consistent with the car's speed, so that as soon as the road gets a
little less slippery, they grip again.

But fog and traction aren't related.

Maybe on older cars, but not on new ones with traction control or
Electronic Stability Control. *As soon as the computer senses a slip
of a wheel, it cuts of the CC.


What year did that begin? My car is a 2005 and it would be nicee to
have that. Dunno if it doe.

Besides, CC keeps the wheel going at a speed consistent with what the
care "should" be traveling at so if it slows down due to slippage it
is going to provide more power so it slips even more.

Ummm, sorta. It will actually _decrease_ power while the wheels are
spinning as less power is neededd to keep them rotating at the set
speed. It _will_ increase power to reaccelerate the vehicle to set
speed when traction is regained - that is the cuase of that "It will
take off like an airplane" moronic old wives tail that circulated
around e-mail for awhile.

Harry K

On Nov 24, 5:40*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:41:45 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per :
Decent ice and snow tires can handle snow at 55 without any problem.

Problems I've had were on long gradual ascents.

At some point in the increasing grade, the load on the drive
tires exceeds their traction and they start to spin.

Not a big deal once you figure out what's going on, but the first
time the vehicle starts slewing side-to-side for no apparent
reason, there's a "WTF?" moment.

* Or like the time i hit black ice on the road along the Conestoga
River with the 69 dart. I was just poking along and I thought it felt
like I had a slack tire. I got out and promptly sat on my ass on the
pavement. I couldn't stand on it - yet I could drive on it - and that
was without studs.

Same here. Came out of Boise ID back in the late 50s doing 65 on a 4-
lane. Stopped with no problem out in the country to "releive the main
vein" and went flat on my back. There was no clue that black ice had
developed. Slowed WAY down after that.

Harry K

On Nov 24, 5:43*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:57:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 23, 8:58*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:08:22 -0600, wrote:

A good driver will pull on the shoulder and park when the fog gets as
bad as it did in Texas. *I'd rather lose a few hours, than get killed or
my car wrecked. *Then again, when the fog is that bad, I avoid getting
on a freeway, or get off the nearest ramp when it begins. *Some drivers
have no brains.

Only stupid drivers would park on the side of the road and become a
target. *Smart drivers will take the exit ramp and get to a safe
place.

Smart drivers, if the conditions permit, will be off, way off, on the
berms and not wait for an exit.

Harry K

*Pretty hard to get past the Jersey Barriers or the Armco on a lot of
highways.

Odd, I thought that was self evident...but apparently not. You also
forgot to mention guard rails, deep ditchs, rock cliffs, etc.

Harry K

On Nov 24, 8:10*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:57:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 23, 8:58 pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:08:22 -0600, wrote:

A good driver will pull on the shoulder and park when the fog gets as
bad as it did in Texas. I'd rather lose a few hours, than get killed or
my car wrecked. Then again, when the fog is that bad, I avoid getting
on a freeway, or get off the nearest ramp when it begins. Some drivers
have no brains.

Only stupid drivers would park on the side of the road and become a
target. Smart drivers will take the exit ramp and get to a safe
place.

Smart drivers, if the conditions permit, will be off, way off, on the
berms and not wait for an exit.

Harry K

Assuming there are berms. *In many places, there is but a normal width
shoulder, a very dangerous place to stop in good weather, let alone in
fog. *If no place to hide, I'm getting off.

It is the rare freeway that does not have wide, shallow berms. Of
course the byways are another sory.

You are in dense fog and will wait for an exit? Not me, I will be as
far off the road as I can get (withoing reason) as soon as I can find
the edge of the highway.

Harry K

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:33:24 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:


You are in dense fog and will wait for an exit? Not me, I will be as
far off the road as I can get (withoing reason) as soon as I can find
the edge of the highway.


There's no easy answer if you can't see where you're going, unless you
really know the road.
Plenty of interstates have steep drop-offs past the edge.
Am I driving into a river?
I'm sure that many won't leave the road for that reason.
And with drainage at the sides, you're probably looking at a tow and
maybe some repairs.
If it came to it, I'd probably go left into the median. But hell, you
can't see that either.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:22:45 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:




Maybe on older cars, but not on new ones with traction control or
Electronic Stability Control. *As soon as the computer senses a slip
of a wheel, it cuts of the CC.


What year did that begin? My car is a 2005 and it would be nicee to
have that. Dunno if it doe.


My 2001 Buick was like that and my 2007, 2010, 2013 Hyundai Sonatas
are like that.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:25:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:




* Or like the time i hit black ice on the road along the Conestoga
River with the 69 dart. I was just poking along and I thought it felt
like I had a slack tire. I got out and promptly sat on my ass on the
pavement. I couldn't stand on it - yet I could drive on it - and that
was without studs.

Same here. Came out of Boise ID back in the late 50s doing 65 on a 4-
lane. Stopped with no problem out in the country to "releive the main
vein" and went flat on my back. There was no clue that black ice had
developed. Slowed WAY down after that.

Harry K

Wow you guys don't know how to easily recognize it? No need to risk
your life getting out of the car. You know it is there when you are
suddenly going 50 mph backwards in the other lane. Slow rotation, but
no loss of speed. Came to a gentle stop against a snow bank. All I
had to do was turn around, change my underwear, and proceed much
slower.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 01:58:53 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-24-2012 21:54, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
In my case, what momentarily confused me was that I was not
trying to drive faster. In fact, I was paying close attention to
not varying the power at all (to avoid loosing traction).

If you have room, i.e., not a lot of traffic, front-wheel drive and
cruise control is great.

If the drive wheels begin to slip, CC keeps them going at a speed
consistent with the car's speed, so that as soon as the road gets a
little less slippery, they grip again.


Pardon?????
Cruise control on a slippery surface? You've got a death wish, buddy.
Read ANY operators manual - they expressly warn AGAINST using cruise
on a slippery surface. Even with traction control, the Mystique warned
against it - and that was ALL SPEED traction control - front drive.

Even worse if you happen to have a trac-loc front diff.


But fog and traction aren't related.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:30:18 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 24, 5:43Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:57:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 23, 8:58Â*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:08:22 -0600, wrote:

A good driver will pull on the shoulder and park when the fog gets as
bad as it did in Texas. Â*I'd rather lose a few hours, than get killed or
my car wrecked. Â*Then again, when the fog is that bad, I avoid getting
on a freeway, or get off the nearest ramp when it begins. Â*Some drivers
have no brains.

Only stupid drivers would park on the side of the road and become a
target. Â*Smart drivers will take the exit ramp and get to a safe
place.

Smart drivers, if the conditions permit, will be off, way off, on the
berms and not wait for an exit.

Harry K

Â*Pretty hard to get past the Jersey Barriers or the Armco on a lot of
highways.

Odd, I thought that was self evident...but apparently not. You also
forgot to mention guard rails, deep ditchs, rock cliffs, etc.

Harry K
Canadian Sheild rock-cuts

On 11-25-2012 08:10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote:
If you have room, i.e., not a lot of traffic, front-wheel drive and
cruise control is great.

If the drive wheels begin to slip, CC keeps them going at a speed
consistent with the car's speed, so that as soon as the road gets a
little less slippery, they grip again.

But fog and traction aren't related.

Maybe on older cars, but not on new ones with traction control or
Electronic Stability Control. As soon as the computer senses a slip
of a wheel, it cuts of the CC.

That sucks. The engine quickly slows the wheel down to almost stopped,
and the car's momentum keeps it sliding.

Besides, CC keeps the wheel going at a speed consistent with what the
care "should" be traveling at so if it slows down due to slippage it
is going to provide more power so it slips even more.

Every cruise control I have ever had and every speedometer I have ever
had measured speed from the drive train, not by GPS or radar or
Pitot-Static.

--
Wes Groleau

People would have more leisure time if it weren't
for all the leisure-time activities that use it up.
€” Peg Bracken

On 11-25-2012 11:18, Harry K wrote:
Wrong: CC will maintain the same engine RPM needed to maintain a
certain speed
Set it for 60, hit a spot where it looses traction and those drive
wheels will still be doing 60mph until traction is resumed.

Running CC in bad conditions is NOT recommended.

You are almost correct. The wheels will continue at the same speed but
the car will be going at almost the same speed, slowing down gradually
until traction is regained or the driver takes over. With the wheel
speed and road speed difference being small, there is greater chance of
regaining traction quickly.

Without CC, the instant the wheel loses its grip, the engine revs up and
the wheels speed up, preventing the regain of traction. Most drivers
will instinctively let go of the fuel pedal, making the wheels slow way
down, also preventing the regain of traction.

If you don't have CC, the best thing to do is keep your RPM close to
what it was and keep the wheels pointed in the direction the car is
moving.

Unless there is a slow obstacle in that direction. I've occasionally
avoided a crash when skidding by flooring it and oversteering. Even
though the rubber isn't gripping the _pavement_, a lot of slush gives
the tires some resistance, and I can modify the direction of motion
slightly that way.

BTW, I wouldn't be doing any of this at 60 even if I could see there are
no other cars or curves for miles.

--
Wes Groleau

A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent
of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets
surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like
Heinlein or Dr. Who.
€” Chris Maeda
Ha, ha, Dr. ..... Who's Chris Maeda?
€” Wes Groleau

On 11-25-2012 13:17, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 01:58:53 -0500, Wes Groleau
Cruise control on a slippery surface? You've got a death wish, buddy.

Nope, just doing what works.

--
Wes Groleau

€œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
€” Larry Wall

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:54:27 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-25-2012 11:18, Harry K wrote:
Wrong: CC will maintain the same engine RPM needed to maintain a
certain speed
Set it for 60, hit a spot where it looses traction and those drive
wheels will still be doing 60mph until traction is resumed.

Running CC in bad conditions is NOT recommended.

You are almost correct. The wheels will continue at the same speed but
the car will be going at almost the same speed, slowing down gradually
until traction is regained or the driver takes over. With the wheel
speed and road speed difference being small, there is greater chance of
regaining traction quickly.

Without CC, the instant the wheel loses its grip, the engine revs up and
the wheels speed up, preventing the regain of traction. Most drivers
will instinctively let go of the fuel pedal, making the wheels slow way
down, also preventing the regain of traction.

With a standard trans, hit the clutch. With an automatic, put it in
neutral, and krrl your foot off the brakes - steer into the skid, very
carefully.

If you don't have CC, the best thing to do is keep your RPM close to
what it was and keep the wheels pointed in the direction the car is
moving.

Unless there is a slow obstacle in that direction. I've occasionally
avoided a crash when skidding by flooring it and oversteering. Even
though the rubber isn't gripping the _pavement_, a lot of slush gives
the tires some resistance, and I can modify the direction of motion
slightly that way.

BTW, I wouldn't be doing any of this at 60 even if I could see there are
no other cars or curves for miles.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:25:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 24, 5:40Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:41:45 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per :
Decent ice and snow tires can handle snow at 55 without any problem.

Problems I've had were on long gradual ascents.

At some point in the increasing grade, the load on the drive
tires exceeds their traction and they start to spin.

Not a big deal once you figure out what's going on, but the first
time the vehicle starts slewing side-to-side for no apparent
reason, there's a "WTF?" moment.

Â* Or like the time i hit black ice on the road along the Conestoga
River with the 69 dart. I was just poking along and I thought it felt
like I had a slack tire. I got out and promptly sat on my ass on the
pavement. I couldn't stand on it - yet I could drive on it - and that
was without studs.

Same here. Came out of Boise ID back in the late 50s doing 65 on a 4-
lane. Stopped with no problem out in the country to "releive the main
vein" and went flat on my back. There was no clue that black ice had
developed. Slowed WAY down after that.

Harry K
Then there was the time I had to deliver/install about 20 CD Rom
servers to libraries across eastern/northern Ontario in late November
- rented cube-van, and away I went.Heading out the 401 eastboud around
Kingston or Belleville I noticed vehicles starting to go "slideways".
I was only doing about 85Kph, but when I lifted my foot to slow down.,
I felt the big van start to go too - popped it into neutral, foot off
the brake, and right down the first ramp to the first Motel I could
find. Then coming back around Bancroft a couple days later - with no
load left in the truck and a pretty good snow going, I came down a
hill and I felt it getting loose again - was getting dark, and there
was a "motel" sign up the hill to the right. I just let the van into
the turnoff lane and called it a night.

On Nov 25, 9:53*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:22:45 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



Maybe on older cars, but not on new ones with traction control or
Electronic Stability Control. As soon as the computer senses a slip
of a wheel, it cuts of the CC.

What year did that begin? *My car is a 2005 and it would be nicee to
have that. *Dunno if it doe.

My 2001 Buick was like that and my 2007, 2010, 2013 Hyundai Sonatas
are like that.

I'll have to try it out the next time the roads are slick. 2005 Ford

Harry K

On Nov 25, 2:39*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 08:10, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote:
If you have room, i.e., not a lot of traffic, front-wheel drive and
cruise control is great.

If the drive wheels begin to slip, CC keeps them going at a speed
consistent with the car's speed, so that as soon as the road gets a
little less slippery, they grip again.

But fog and traction aren't related.

Maybe on older cars, but not on new ones with traction control or
Electronic Stability Control. *As soon as the computer senses a slip
of a wheel, it cuts of the CC.

That sucks. *The engine quickly slows the wheel down to almost stopped,
and the car's momentum keeps it sliding.

Besides, CC keeps the wheel going at a speed consistent with what the
care "should" be traveling at so if it slows down due to slippage it
is going to provide more power so it slips even more.

Every cruise control I have ever had and every speedometer I have ever
had measured speed from the drive train, not by GPS or radar or
Pitot-Static.

--
Wes Groleau

People would have more leisure time if it weren't
for all the leisure-time activities that use it up.
* * * * * * * * * * * * — Peg Bracken

Yep. It always amazes me how many people know so little about how
those things work.

Haryr K

On Nov 25, 2:54*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 11:18, Harry K wrote:

Wrong: *CC will maintain the same engine RPM needed to maintain a
certain speed
Set it for 60, hit a spot where it looses traction and those drive
wheels will still be doing 60mph until traction is resumed.

Running CC in bad conditions is NOT recommended.

You are almost correct. *The wheels will continue at the same speed but
the car will be going at almost the same speed, slowing down gradually
until traction is regained or the driver takes over. *With the wheel
speed and road speed difference being small, there is greater chance of
regaining traction quickly.

Without CC, the instant the wheel loses its grip, the engine revs up and
the wheels speed up, preventing the regain of traction. *Most drivers
will instinctively let go of the fuel pedal, making the wheels slow way
down, also preventing the regain of traction.

If you don't have CC, the best thing to do is keep your RPM close to
what it was and keep the wheels pointed in the direction the car is
moving.

Unless there is a slow obstacle in that direction. *I've occasionally
avoided a crash when skidding by flooring it and oversteering. *Even
though the rubber isn't gripping the _pavement_, a lot of slush gives
the tires some resistance, and I can modify the direction of motion
slightly that way.

BTW, I wouldn't be doing any of this at 60 even if I could see there are
no other cars or curves for miles.

--
Wes Groleau

* * A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent
* * of a black velvet clown painting. *It's a rectangle of carets
* * surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like
* * Heinlein or Dr. Who.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *— Chris Maeda
* * Ha, ha, Dr. ..... Who's Chris Maeda?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *— Wes Groleau

Interesting theory but it flys in the face of what is taught in
drivers ed and articles on driving in mags. They all say "do not use
CC in bad conditions".

Harry K

On Nov 25, 5:24*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:25:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 24, 5:40*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:41:45 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per :
Decent ice and snow tires can handle snow at 55 without any problem.

Problems I've had were on long gradual ascents.

At some point in the increasing grade, the load on the drive
tires exceeds their traction and they start to spin.

Not a big deal once you figure out what's going on, but the first
time the vehicle starts slewing side-to-side for no apparent
reason, there's a "WTF?" moment.

* Or like the time i hit black ice on the road along the Conestoga
River with the 69 dart. I was just poking along and I thought it felt
like I had a slack tire. I got out and promptly sat on my ass on the
pavement. I couldn't stand on it - yet I could drive on it - and that
was without studs.

Same here. *Came out of Boise ID back in the late 50s doing 65 on a 4-
lane. *Stopped with no problem out in the country to "releive the main
vein" and went flat on my back. *There was no clue that black ice had
developed. *Slowed WAY down after that.

Harry K

* Then there was the time I had to deliver/install about 20 CD Rom
servers to libraries across eastern/northern Ontario in late November
- rented cube-van, and away I went.Heading out the 401 eastboud around
Kingston or Belleville I noticed vehicles starting to go "slideways".
I was only doing about 85Kph, but when I lifted my foot to slow down.,
I felt the big van start to go too - popped it into neutral, foot off
the brake, and right down the first ramp to the first Motel I could
find. *Then coming back around Bancroft a couple days later - with no
load left in the truck and a pretty good snow going, I came down a
hill and I felt it getting loose again - was getting dark, and there
was a "motel" sign up the hill to the right. I just let the van into
the turnoff lane and called it a night.

Reminds me of the time I got caught in a "Norther" in north Texas.
Conditions got so bad I couldn't see to een turn around and go back to
where I had spent the night. Slow, very careful driving got me into
Amarillo where I hit a red light, steped on brake gently and went
through light backwards. First Motel got my business.

Harry K

On Nov 24, 12:01*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.


Why so? You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

Harry K

On Nov 25, 9:49*am, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:33:24 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



You are in dense fog and will wait for an exit? *Not me, I will be as
far off the road as I can get (withoing reason) as soon as I can find
the edge of the highway.

There's no easy answer if you can't see where you're going, unless you
really know the road.
Plenty of interstates have steep drop-offs past the edge.
Am I driving into a river?
I'm sure that many won't leave the road for that reason.
And with drainage at the sides, you're probably looking at a tow and
maybe some repairs.
If it came to it, I'd probably go left into the median. *But hell, you
can't see that either.

Exactly but I'd rather smash up my car than have it smashed between
two other vehicles.
Tow bills are cheap over hospital bills.

Harry K

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:19:41 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01Â*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.


Why so? You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

Harry K
How are you going to keep from freezing to death in a howling 50 MPH
wind at -4F if you get out of your car? And how are you going to get
OFF the road in the first place if there is a snow-plow ridge 5 feet
high on each side of the road??

Think about it. Then think again and consider your answer.

On 11-25-2012 23:08, Harry K wrote:
Interesting theory but it flys in the face of what is taught in
drivers ed and articles on driving in mags. They all say "do not use
CC in bad conditions".

Yeah, I've read a lot of things that turned out to be false when tested.
Do any of those say why? Do they say what happens? Did they test it
or just make it up, like the cholesterol myth?

--
Wes Groleau

€œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
€” Larry Wall

On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:
On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

€œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
€” Larry Wall

Wes Groleau wrote:

On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:
And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a blizzard in south Texas in quite
some time...

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:10:27 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:25:44 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:




* Or like the time i hit black ice on the road along the Conestoga
River with the 69 dart. I was just poking along and I thought it felt
like I had a slack tire. I got out and promptly sat on my ass on the
pavement. I couldn't stand on it - yet I could drive on it - and that
was without studs.

Same here. Came out of Boise ID back in the late 50s doing 65 on a 4-
lane. Stopped with no problem out in the country to "releive the main
vein" and went flat on my back. There was no clue that black ice had
developed. Slowed WAY down after that.

Harry K

Wow you guys don't know how to easily recognize it? No need to risk
your life getting out of the car. You know it is there when you are
suddenly going 50 mph backwards in the other lane. Slow rotation, but
no loss of speed. Came to a gentle stop against a snow bank. All I
had to do was turn around, change my underwear, and proceed much
slower.

At night it's easy to tell when you've hit black ice, even before the
front end points backwards. It's called "black ice" for a reason. You
can't see it because there is no back-scatter from the headlights.

When we lived in Vermont, I'd hit it occasionally. I usually found
the shoulder (where the sand and other debris accumulates) before
things got out of control but once in NY, I did the multiple 360s
trick before I found the shoulder. I *didn't* see that one coming
(though I should have). No paint lost, though.

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I once heard an Atlantic City Expressway police rep characterize
a car parked on the shoulder at night with lights on as a "Drunk
Magnet".

I used to be a police reporter and did lots of "ride alongs" with State
Troopers and the county police. One of Maryland's first female troopers
lost both legs below mid thigh because she stopped on the shoulder, standing
between her cruiser and the car she had just pulled over when a drunk driver
slammed into her cruiser and pinned her between the two cars, crushing her
legs like mashed potatoes.

A veteran trooper gave me a very useful piece of information: When you need
to pull over the the shoulder, get as far off the roadway as you can.
Another important tip was to exit the travel lane very quickly, spending as
little time riding on the shoulder as possible.

If you watch experienced troopers, they stay in the travel lanes as long as
possible and then quickly pull onto the shoulder. The reason is that the
shoulder is often littered with broken glass and all sorts of other debris
that is knocked off the main roadway. The longer you drive on the shoulder,
the more likely you are to get a flat tire.

--
Bobby G.

Pete C. wrote:
Wes Groleau wrote:

On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:
And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as
far off the road as possible, turn off your lights so other
vehicles don't follow your tail lights thinking that's where the
road is, and get out of your vehicle and further away, preferably
beyond guardrails or other barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a blizzard in south Texas in quite
some time...

Depends on what you mean by "blizzard." A few years ago, it snowed THREE
times in Houston, about 1/4" each time. They closed the schools. They closed
the roads. They closed the airports. Those families that didn't huddle in
the family room, filled the church pews. Grocery stores ran out of canned
goods.

Little children, wearing all the clothes they owned, scraped the snow from
car hoods, constructed six-inch tall snowmen and called them good.

We still refer to the "Blizzards of ought-six!"

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 08:10:01 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Nov 24, 3:37*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:28:04 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 15:44:52 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Been lucky I guess. *Only a few times I was caught in heavy fog or
rain/snow on the interstate. *Seems very few people passed me when I
put on my blinkers and went as slow as about 20 mph. * But I could see
maybe 15-30 feet.
Must be terrible to find yourself in zero visibility. *Only thing I
can figure with the big Texas pile-up damage is folks went from good
visibility into a wall of fog that was already pile up with crashed
vehicles.
When I hitch-hiked from Norfolk to Chicago in the '60's I picked up a
ride with dead-heading trucker late at night. *Mack pulling an empty
flatbed.
Never forget it. *Our talking was what kept him from nodding off.
Penn turnpike near Beaver Falls. *Fog for about 20 miles, maybe 50 ft
visibility.
He never went below 80. *Took a year off my life.
I said goodbye at his first fuel stop, out of the fog. *But I wanted
away from him.

A good driver will pull on the shoulder and park when the fog gets as
bad as it did in Texas. *I'd rather lose a few hours, than get killed or
my car wrecked. *Then again, when the fog is that bad, I avoid getting
on a freeway, or get off the nearest ramp when it begins. *Some drivers
have no brains.

The accident may well have begun with someone who pulled to the shoulder
and parked and thus when the next person suddenly found themselves in
dense fog they followed the tail lights directly into that stopped
vehicle. Fog can appear very suddenly and a road that had great
visibility can have a fog bank blow over it from an adjacent area in
seconds. The area in question is reported to be straight and level, a
75mph zone and have some adjacent marsh areas where the fog likely
rolled in from. Exits are miles apart.

Merely speculation, unless you have personally spoken to the person who
was first in the crash. *I'd probably to be the first to intentionally
drive off the road into a corn field if the fog was that bad. *I'd
rather pay for a tow than get into a crash like that. *A marsh.....
well, that's another story!

Getting well off the road, and turning off your lights so other drivers
do not follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is would
be sensible.



By the way, I think 75mph is TOO fast for any highway, anywhere,
anytime.

Total nonsense, may have been correct in the days of the Model T, but
certainly not for any modern auto.

I also learned when I took drivers ed (about 44 years ago),
that a person should maintain a distance of one car length for every 10
mph of travel,

More nonsense. Following distance needs to account for your reaction
time and the potential delta between your braking distance and that of
the vehicle in front of you. This does not need to take speed into
account since speed affects both your vehicle and the one in front of
you. If you are in a big truck and following a small car you need more
following distance since the vehicle you are following can stop in a
shorter distance than you can. Conversely if you are in a small car
following a large truck you need less following distance since you can
stop in a shorter distance than the vehicle you are following.


The drivers aren't thinking simultaneously.. It is a cascade effect.

That's what he said, dummy.

The first driver has finished his thinking process before the second
one starts his.
So you are the one talking crap.

No, harry, once again you're proving yourself to be the illiterate old
git that you are. Do try to read.

On Nov 26, 4:51*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:08, Harry K wrote:

Interesting theory but it flys in the face of what is taught in
drivers ed and articles on driving in mags. *They all say "do not use
CC in bad conditions".

Yeah, I've read a lot of things that turned out to be false when tested.
* Do any of those say why? *Do they say what happens? *Did they test it
or just make it up, like the cholesterol myth?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

Why don't you read your car's manual and see what _it_ says about it.
You are
advocating trusting a device to modulate your engine power that ony
has "on" and "off" with no sense of what the conditions are or what is
needed.

Harry K

On Nov 26, 4:44*am, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:19:41 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 24, 12:01*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

Harry K

*How are you going to keep from freezing to death in a howling 50 MPH
wind at -4F if you get out of your car?

I'm well off the roadway, why would I need to get out of the car?
Cell to call a tow if one is needed and plenty of fuel to sit and
wait.

*And how are you going to get
OFF the road in the first place if there is a snow-plow ridge 5 feet
high on each side of the road??

Already mentioned by me in the very post you replied to.


BTW I am repeating information given in driver's ed manuals, many
articles on "how to drive in bad conditions" and advice given in
newspapers at the start of almost every wingter.

Where is your source for "continue to the next exit"?

Harry K

*Think about it. *Then think again and consider your answer.

Not only thought about it before posting (more than once BTW) and know
that that iss the advice given by professionals.

It is fine to come up with your own theories of stuff but don't expect
people to buy them because _you_ said so.

Harry K

On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

"Harry K" wrote in message news:b0a998e3-e78b-42b9-b41d-
stuff snipped

It is the rare freeway that does not have wide, shallow berms. Of course
the byways are another sory. You are in dense fog and will wait for an exit?
Not me, I will be as
far off the road as I can get (within reason) as soon as I can find the edge
of the highway.

When I was in California, I found myself cresting a small mountain with the
morning rush hour traffic and then entering fog so thick I was not able to
see anything but the tail lights of the car ahead of me and the headlights
of the car behind me. I was panicking but these drivers slowed just a
little bit and all followed the leader for several miles until the fog was
gone. It all depends on how good the "point" driver is, I guess. I think
things would have been much worse outside of rush hour with people traveling
at higher speeds. I really thought we were all going to die but we hust

I thought about pulling over but up there in the mountains, every foot you
stray from the traveling portion of the roadway could be a foot closer to a
very steep drop. Staying in lane (no one passed anyone!) and proceeding
slowly but carefully seemed to work out in that case. Every case is
different, though. I really got the impression this was such a common event
on that particular mountain that people just figured out what worked and
coped.

Fog and blizzard driving are two very different things. Unless you're an
emergency responder, there's little excuse for getting caught in a blizzard
with today's weather forecasting technology. I am not sure I'd go very far
off the road in a blizzard because you could get buried by a snowplow and
end up like Per Hansa from "Giants in the Earth." I would try to find an
exit and a motel ASAP or even a gas station or restaurant, especially if
conditions were worsening. Two years in Buffalo, where snow starts in
October and lingers until May.

--
Bobby G.

Vic Smith wrote:

Been lucky I guess. Only a few times I was caught in heavy fog or
rain/snow on the interstate. Seems very few people passed me when I
put on my blinkers and went as slow as about 20 mph. But I could see
maybe 15-30 feet.
Must be terrible to find yourself in zero visibility. Only thing I
can figure with the big Texas pile-up damage is folks went from good
visibility into a wall of fog that was already pile up with crashed
vehicles.
When I hitch-hiked from Norfolk to Chicago in the '60's I picked up a
ride with dead-heading trucker late at night. Mack pulling an empty
flatbed.
Never forget it. Our talking was what kept him from nodding off.
Penn turnpike near Beaver Falls. Fog for about 20 miles, maybe 50 ft
visibility.
He never went below 80. Took a year off my life.
I said goodbye at his first fuel stop, out of the fog. But I wanted
away from him.


I'm sure the speed limit is adjusted for weather. By law, you're
supposed to do it yourself without any prodding by electrical speed
limit signs.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:12:48 -0600, G. Morgan
wrote:


I'm sure the speed limit is adjusted for weather. By law, you're
supposed to do it yourself without any prodding by electrical speed
limit signs.

Some states have traffic violations for speed, exceeding driving
conditions ...something like that.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:28:37 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Harry K" wrote in message news:b0a998e3-e78b-42b9-b41d-
stuff snipped

It is the rare freeway that does not have wide, shallow berms. Of course
the byways are another sory. You are in dense fog and will wait for an exit?
Not me, I will be as
far off the road as I can get (within reason) as soon as I can find the edge
of the highway.

When I was in California, I found myself cresting a small mountain with the
morning rush hour traffic and then entering fog so thick I was not able to
see anything but the tail lights of the car ahead of me and the headlights
of the car behind me. I was panicking but these drivers slowed just a
little bit and all followed the leader for several miles until the fog was
gone. It all depends on how good the "point" driver is, I guess. I think
things would have been much worse outside of rush hour with people traveling
at higher speeds. I really thought we were all going to die but we hust

I thought about pulling over but up there in the mountains, every foot you
stray from the traveling portion of the roadway could be a foot closer to a
very steep drop. Staying in lane (no one passed anyone!) and proceeding
slowly but carefully seemed to work out in that case. Every case is
different, though. I really got the impression this was such a common event
on that particular mountain that people just figured out what worked and
coped.

Fog and blizzard driving are two very different things. Unless you're an
emergency responder, there's little excuse for getting caught in a blizzard
with today's weather forecasting technology. I am not sure I'd go very far
off the road in a blizzard because you could get buried by a snowplow and
end up like Per Hansa from "Giants in the Earth." I would try to find an
exit and a motel ASAP or even a gas station or restaurant, especially if
conditions were worsening. Two years in Buffalo, where snow starts in
October and lingers until May.


"Today's weather forecasting technology". Now *that's* funny!

We drove through one a couple of decades ago on a trip from Eastern NY
to East-central IL. The snow started about the western 100mi of I80
in PA. From there to Columbus, OH took eight hours, where it turned
into ice. At times it was so bad that the only thing I could see was
the tail lights of the truck I was glued to. If he was driving across
corn fields, so was I. Trucks occasionally passed us at "normal"
highway speeds and it was "dead reckoning" for 20-30 seconds.

I wouldn't have made the trip at all except that the FIL was in the
hospital, for the last time. We wanted to get our son there to see
him for the last time.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:59:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:12:48 -0600, G. Morgan
wrote:


I'm sure the speed limit is adjusted for weather. By law, you're
supposed to do it yourself without any prodding by electrical speed
limit signs.

Some states have traffic violations for speed, exceeding driving
conditions ...something like that.

Speed limits are always "reasonable and proper". ...both the maximum
and minimums, if any.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:04:07 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:


Harry K

Â*Think about it. Â*Then think again and consider your answer.

Not only thought about it before posting (more than once BTW) and know
that that iss the advice given by professionals.

It is fine to come up with your own theories of stuff but don't expect
people to buy them because _you_ said so.

Harry K
You didn't read what I was responding to, did you??? it said - and I
copy / paste the quote - " that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, prefera".

Read before you respond.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53Â*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? Â*You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

Â* Â* €œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* €” Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K
Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:59:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:12:48 -0600, G. Morgan
wrote:


I'm sure the speed limit is adjusted for weather. By law, you're
supposed to do it yourself without any prodding by electrical speed
limit signs.

Some states have traffic violations for speed, exceeding driving
conditions ...something like that.
Driving too fast for conditions - and if you argue that they throw
"driving without due care and attention " - or "careless driving".
That IS a serious charge.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:54:36 -0500, wrote:


Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

And try to stay gassed up. I fill up at half a tank in the winter.