On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:57:14 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:59:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:12:48 -0600, G. Morgan
wrote:


I'm sure the speed limit is adjusted for weather. By law, you're
supposed to do it yourself without any prodding by electrical speed
limit signs.

Some states have traffic violations for speed, exceeding driving
conditions ...something like that.

Driving too fast for conditions - and if you argue that they throw
"driving without due care and attention " - or "careless driving".
That IS a serious charge.

They might just throw in a charge of "reckless eyeballin'". It is
Texas after all.

Failure to control a vehicle is another.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:54:36 -0500, wrote:

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

There are cases of hot catalytic converters setting grass on fire
under the car. In the South the grasses can be rather high on the
road shoulders.

On Nov 26, 3:52*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:04:07 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



Harry K

*Think about it. *Then think again and consider your answer.

Not only thought about it before posting (more than once BTW) and know
that that iss the advice given by professionals.

It is fine to come up with your own theories of stuff but don't expect
people to buy them because _you_ said so.

Harry K

* You didn't read what I was responding to, did you??? it said - and I
copy / paste the quote - " *that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, prefera".

Read before you respond.

Not only did I read it, I WROTE it and I did not write what you just
quoted. Don't beliee me, read the post you responded to.

YOu are grasping at straws trying to justify your advice that goes
agains all the professionals.

Harry K

On Nov 26, 3:54*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? *And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

On 11-26-2012 13:56, Harry K wrote:
Why don't you read your car's manual and see what _it_ says about it.

Got rid of my car 27 months ago. Pedal power only now.

You are advocating trusting a device to modulate your engine power that ony

I am not advocating trusting a device.

I am stating not my hypothesis about USING a tool and the fact that
several experiments confirmed it as useful for that purpose.

has "on" and "off" with no sense of what the conditions are or what is
needed.

It had a sense of what it was designed to control--the speed of the
wheels. It did not have only "on or off"--it could and did hold a
steady wheel speed anywhere from about 300 to 900 RPM. And it gave me
the freedom to adjust, discontinue, or override whenever my sense of
everything else suggested I should.

--
Wes Groleau

€œGrant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
the courage to change the one I can;
and the wisdom to know it's me.€�
€” unknown

On 11-26-2012 13:56, Harry K wrote: Why don't you read your car's
manual and see what _it_ says about it.

Got rid of my car 27 months ago. Pedal power only now.

You are advocating trusting a device to modulate your engine power
that ony

I did not advocate trusting a device.

I stated my hypothesis about USING a tool and the fact that several
experiments confirmed it as useful for that purpose.

has "on" and "off" with no sense of what the conditions are or what is
needed.

It had a sense of what it was designed to control--the speed of the
wheels. It did not have only "on or off"--it could and did hold a
steady wheel speed anywhere from about 300 to 900 RPM. And it gave me
the freedom to adjust, discontinue, or override whenever my sense of
everything else suggested I should.

-- Wes Groleau

€œGrant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
the courage to change the one I can;
and the wisdom to know it's me.€�
€” unknown

On 11-26-2012 08:35, Pete C. wrote:
Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:
And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a blizzard in south Texas in quite
some time...

Define "south." Define "some time." Weather was nice last time I was
in Texas. Time before that--1973--I didn't see much snow but there sure
was a heck of a lot of ice everywhere.

Anyway, in spite of not changing the subject line, plenty of people in
this thread have been talking about places other than Texas and
conditions other than fog.

--
Wes Groleau

€œGrant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
the courage to change the one I can;
and the wisdom to know it's me.€�
€” unknown

On Nov 26, 11:06*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-26-2012 13:56, Harry K wrote:

Why don't you read your car's manual and see what _it_ says about it.

Got rid of my car 27 months ago. *Pedal power only now.

So borrow your neighbors or are you afraid to check it out?


You are advocating trusting a device to modulate your engine power that ony

I am not advocating trusting a device.

I am stating not my hypothesis about USING a tool and the fact that
several experiments confirmed it as useful for that purpose.


Glad to see you admit it is only your "hypothesis" and BTW even an
hypothesis needs facts. In scientific definitions you don't even have
an hypothesis, only a WAG.

Your "experiments" were not controlled ones and you got the answer
that you were expecting..nay, hoping for. Subjective all.

has "on" and "off" with no sense of what the conditions are or what is
needed.

It had a sense of what it was designed to control--the speed of the
wheels. *It did not have only "on or off"--it could and did hold a
steady wheel speed anywhere from about 300 to 900 RPM.

Exactly what I said, on or off with no modulation due to conditions.
All it knows is wheel speed and it will maintain that up until
something stops the engine or exceeds the engine power to
do so.

If you are so certain of your results, publish a paper somewhere it
will be seen by he expertrs. They should be advised so they can
change their advice.

And it gave me
the freedom to adjust, discontinue, or override whenever my sense of
everything else suggested I should.


My point exactly, stated differently - you did notice you have to
_override_ the system you have controlling you vehicle when conditions
call for it? That is one of the reasons the experts say "don't use it
in bad conditions" - it adds time to the 'reaction cycle" by
requireing a least ond control
operation not needded if the CC is not active.

So far all you have produced to back up your "theory" is "I believe
that..." type of stuff, nor cites, not even very good logic.

I'll take the word of experts over one persons personal opinion.

Harry K

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:29:33 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 3:52Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:04:07 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



Harry K

Â*Think about it. Â*Then think again and consider your answer.

Not only thought about it before posting (more than once BTW) and know
that that iss the advice given by professionals.

It is fine to come up with your own theories of stuff but don't expect
people to buy them because _you_ said so.

Harry K

Â* You didn't read what I was responding to, did you??? it said - and I
copy / paste the quote - " Â*that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, prefera".

Read before you respond.

Not only did I read it, I WROTE it and I did not write what you just
quoted. Don't beliee me, read the post you responded to.

YOu are grasping at straws trying to justify your advice that goes
agains all the professionals.

Harry K
Harry - what advice have I given that goes against the advice of
WHAT professionals?????

Here are just a few quotes and references that agree with me.

from
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/saf...terdrive.shtml

Once in a skid, steer in the direction of the skid. To do this, look
where you want your vehicle to go and steer toward that spot. Be
careful not to oversteer. If you are on ice and skidding in a straight
line, step on the clutch or shift to neutral.

and

What to Do in an EmergencyIf you get stuck or stranded, dont panic.
Stay with your vehicle for safety and warmth. Wait for help to arrive.
If you are in an area with cell phone service and have a cell phone,
call for help. Remember, dialing 911 on your cell phone will connect
you with the emergency services contact centre in the area. Please use
1-888-310-1122 for non-emergencies.

Be careful if you have to get out of your vehicle when on the shoulder
of a busy road. If possible, use the door away from traffic.

If you attempt to free your vehicle from the snow, be careful. Dress
warmly, shovel slowly and do not overexert yourself. Do not attempt to
shovel or push your vehicle if you have a medical condition. Body heat
is retained when clothing is kept dry. Wet clothing, due to the
weather or perspiration, can lead to a dangerous loss of body heat.

Draw attention to your vehicle. Use emergency flashers, flares, or a
Call Police sign. Run your motor sparingly. Be careful of exhaust
fumes. For fresh air, slightly open a window away from the wind. Exit
your vehicle occasionally to make sure the exhaust pipe is clear of
drifting snow before running the engine.

In blizzard conditions, especially overnight, make sure one person
stays awake, because help could take some time to arrive. Maintain
circulation by moving your feet, hands and arms

from http://www.purealpine.com/samoens/winter-driving/

What to do if you get trapped in snow
Call the emergency services to let them know roughly where you are and
your licence number.
Always stay with your vehicle. In heavy snow its easy to get
disoriented and separated from your car.
Keep your car hazard lights on.
Stay warm by running the engine. Its vital to ensure that the exhaust
pipe is not blocked by snow. If the engine fumes cant escape, you
could be overwhelmed by carbon monoxide gas which can kill.
Even if its safe and the exhaust is clear, do not run the engine for
more than 10 or 15 minutes in each hour.

from http://weather.about.com/od/winterwe...r_survival.htm

In a Car or Truck

€¢Never leave the vehicle. If you are stranded, the vehicle offers a
form of protection from overexposure to the cold. A single person
walking through the snow is also harder to find than a stranded car or
truck.
€¢It is okay to run the car for short periods to provide some heat.
Remember to crack the windows a small amount to allow for the
circulation of fresh air. Dangerous exhaust fumes, including carbon
monoxide, can build up very quickly. This is especially true if the
tailpipe is buried in the snow.
€¢Keep yourself moving. A car offers little room for you to keep your
blood flowing, but exercise is a must. Clap your hands, stomp your
feet, and move around as much as possible at least once an hour. In
addition to keeping your body moving, keep your mind and spirit from
wandering too far into gloom. While potentially dangerous situations
are not a time of joy, keeping yourself from added stress will allow
you to make smarter decisions when necessitated.
€¢Make the car visible for a rescue. Hang bits of bright colored cloth
or plastic from the windows. If the snow has stopped falling, open the
hood of the car as a signal of distress

from http://www.handycanadian.com/article...rm-driving.asp

The following are tips on what to do if you are caught in your car
during a bad snow storm:

€¢If your vehicle becomes immobilized, stay inside the vehicle until
help arrives. Exceptions - to clear the exhaust pipe of ice and snow
and prevent the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning; or other
precautionary measures that must be taken before returning to the
safety of your car.
€¢Tie a bright piece of cloth to the antenna to make your vehicle more
visible.
€¢If you have them, set flares; follow instructions.
€¢Run your engine 10 to 15-minutes out of every hour for heat; crack a
window for ventilation.
€¢€œExercise;€� move your arms, legs, fingers, and toes to keep your
blood circulating.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 3:54Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 26, 4:53Â*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? Â*You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

Â* Â* €œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* €” Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? Â*And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

Â* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K
Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

You STAY WITH THE CAR. That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 02:05:29 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-26-2012 13:56, Harry K wrote:
Why don't you read your car's manual and see what _it_ says about it.

Got rid of my car 27 months ago. Pedal power only now.

You are advocating trusting a device to modulate your engine power that ony

I am not advocating trusting a device.

I am stating not my hypothesis about USING a tool and the fact that
several experiments confirmed it as useful for that purpose.

has "on" and "off" with no sense of what the conditions are or what is
needed.

It had a sense of what it was designed to control--the speed of the
wheels. It did not have only "on or off"--it could and did hold a
steady wheel speed anywhere from about 300 to 900 RPM. And it gave me
the freedom to adjust, discontinue, or override whenever my sense of
everything else suggested I should.
I'm glad it worked for you, Wes - but it is BAD advice and giving
BAD advice is irresponsible.

The advice of EXPERTS is do NOT use cruise control in reduced traction
conditions, and even using OVERDRIVE is not advised under those
conditions.

Harry K wrote:
On Nov 25, 9:53 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:22:45 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



Maybe on older cars, but not on new ones with traction control or
Electronic Stability Control. As soon as the computer senses a slip
of a wheel, it cuts of the CC.

What year did that begin? My car is a 2005 and it would be nicee to
have that. Dunno if it doe.

My 2001 Buick was like that and my 2007, 2010, 2013 Hyundai Sonatas
are like that.

I'll have to try it out the next time the roads are slick. 2005 Ford

Harry K

GM models with traction control in the 90's should have it.

Greg

Most of the TIME, the setting for OVERDRIVE
is at HIGHWAY SPEEDS, so using OVERDRIVE
under limited TRACTION or VISIBILITY
really should be a non ISSUE.

CHRISTOPHER A. Young
Learn MORE about Jesus
www.LDS.org
..

wrote in message
...

The advice of EXPERTS is do NOT use cruise
control in reduced traction conditions, and even
using OVERDRIVE is not advised under those
conditions.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 22:12:54 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Most of the TIME, the setting for OVERDRIVE
is at HIGHWAY SPEEDS, so using OVERDRIVE
under limited TRACTION or VISIBILITY
really should be a non ISSUE.

CHRISTOPHER A. Young
Learn MORE about Jesus
www.LDS.org
.

wrote in message
.. .

The advice of EXPERTS is do NOT use cruise
control in reduced traction conditions, and even
using OVERDRIVE is not advised under those
conditions.

Reduced traction also occurs on wet pavement in clear weather - still
a TRACTION issue - and my Taurus will shift into OD at 35 - 40MPH when
warm under light load.

On Nov 27, 5:29*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:29:33 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 26, 3:52*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:04:07 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

Harry K

*Think about it. *Then think again and consider your answer.

Not only thought about it before posting (more than once BTW) and know
that that iss the advice given by professionals.

It is fine to come up with your own theories of stuff but don't expect
people to buy them because _you_ said so.

Harry K

* You didn't read what I was responding to, did you??? it said - and I
copy / paste the quote - " *that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, prefera".

Read before you respond.

Not only did I read it, I WROTE it and I did not write what you just
quoted. *Don't beliee me, read the post you responded to.

YOu are grasping at straws trying to justify your advice that goes
agains all the professionals.

Harry K

* Harry - what advice have I given that goes against the advice of
WHAT professionals?????

Basically not to get off the road as far as possible.


Here are just a few quotes and references that agree with me.

fromhttp://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/winterdrive/winterdrive.shtml

Once in a skid, steer in the direction of the skid. To do this, look
where you want your vehicle to go and steer toward that spot. Be
careful not to oversteer. If you are on ice and skidding in a straight
line, step on the clutch or shift to neutral.

and


Has zero to do with the discussion of what to do in bad visibility.

snip a whole bunch about what to do if one gets stuck - nothign at
all to do with the thread.

And just what does getting stuck in snow have to to with getting OFF
THE ROAD in heavy fog or other reduced visibility. The whole point of
doing it is to avoid getting caught in one of theose multi vehicle
pileups.

Harry K

On Nov 27, 5:36*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 26, 3:54*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? *And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. * I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. *It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

*You STAY WITH THE CAR. *That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. *And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

Then quote some of them that say to stay on the highway. I also don't
think you will find one saysng to stay in your vehicle during a multi
car smashup.

Harry K

On Nov 27, 5:36*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 26, 3:54*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? *And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. * I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. *It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

*You STAY WITH THE CAR. *That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. *And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

To avoid going through it again. My advice _and the expert's advice_
in heavy fog GET OFF THE RAOD IF YOU CAN. That is the entire point of
my posts but you keep tying to divert into other things.

Stick to the point and this time try to come up with a reason _not_ to
get as far off the road as possible.

Harry K

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:51:28 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 27, 5:36Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 26, 3:54Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53Â*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? Â*You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

Â* Â* €œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* €” Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? Â*And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

Â* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. Â* I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. Â*It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

Â* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

Â*You STAY WITH THE CAR. Â*That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. Â*And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

To avoid going through it again. My advice _and the expert's advice_
in heavy fog GET OFF THE RAOD IF YOU CAN. That is the entire point of
my posts but you keep tying to divert into other things.

Stick to the point and this time try to come up with a reason _not_ to
get as far off the road as possible.

Harry K
And I NEVER said not to. All I was saying is STAY IN THE DAMNED CAR
IN A BLIZZARD!!!! And YOU said I was going against what the experts
say. NOWHERE did I say not to get off the road - but if you are stuck
and you can NOT get off the road - STAY IN THE VEHICLE. and make the
vehicle conspicous. The chances of getting hit by anything other than
a snowplough after more than a short time after getting stuck is
pretty slim - you can't move, nor can anyone else.

IF you can still move, without hitting anything or running off the
road, get off the road COMPLETELY as soon as possible. - and STAY IN
THE VEHICLE unless you can reach shelter.

On 11-27-2012 12:53, Harry K wrote:
So far all you have produced to back up your "theory" is "I believe
that..." type of stuff, nor cites, not even very good logic.

What I have

1. makes sense with minimal understanding of physics

2, foiled attempts to prove it wrong

I'll take the word of experts over one persons personal opinion.

No skin off my nose, but "Experts" ? A car owners manual that says
"Don't do this" without offering any reason? What is the name of the
expert who wrote it--I want to check his credentials. Oh, no name. Hmmm.

They may be right--but I have learned in researching a lot of things
that there are plenty of "experts" just making stuff up and a lot more
quoting what was made up.

"Fat causes heart attacks. Forward to all your friends"

"Salt raises blood pressure. Tell everybody"

If I haven't tested it or seen evidence that someone has, I'm very slow
to believe it. Especially when it contradicts simple physics,
mechanics, electronics, etc.

If I had a dollar for every time someone proclaimed something is
impossible after I had already done it. .....

--
Wes Groleau

There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

On 11-27-2012 20:39, wrote:
The advice of EXPERTS is do NOT use cruise control in reduced traction
conditions, and even using OVERDRIVE is not advised under those
conditions.

Can you name one of these experts?

Can you cite the research article explaining how they proved it?

--
Wes Groleau

There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:49:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:




*You STAY WITH THE CAR. *That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. *And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

Then quote some of them that say to stay on the highway. I also don't
think you will find one saysng to stay in your vehicle during a multi
car smashup.

Harry K


Better to stay IN the car than get hit OUT of the car. In the case of
most multi-car, you can't easily move off the highway.

On Nov 27, 10:02*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-27-2012 12:53, Harry K wrote:

So far all you have produced to back up your "theory" is "I believe
that..." type of stuff, nor cites, not even very good logic.

What I have

1. makes sense with minimal understanding of physics

2, foiled attempts to prove it wrong

I'll take the word of experts over one persons personal opinion.

No skin off my nose, but "Experts" ? *A car owners manual that says
"Don't do this" without offering any reason? *What is the name of the
expert who wrote it--I want to check his credentials. *Oh, no name. *Hmmm.

They may be right--but I have learned in researching a lot of things
that there are plenty of "experts" just making stuff up and a lot more
quoting what was made up.

"Fat causes heart attacks. *Forward to all your friends"

"Salt raises blood pressure. *Tell everybody"

If I haven't tested it or seen evidence that someone has, I'm very slow
to believe it. *Especially when it contradicts simple physics,
mechanics, electronics, etc.

If I had a dollar for every time someone proclaimed something is
impossible after I had already done it. .....

--
Wes Groleau

* * There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

Nice tryi but your "theory" remains a personal opinion and you'll find
no expert that back s it up.

Harry K

On Nov 27, 10:04*pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-27-2012 20:39, wrote:

The advice of EXPERTS is do NOT use cruise control in reduced traction
conditions, and even using OVERDRIVE is not advised under those
conditions.

Can you name one of these experts?

Can you cite the research article explaining how they proved it?

--
Wes Groleau

* * There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

Can you cite any research proving your "theory"? Note tht you saying
you tried it out is NOT research.

Harry K

On Nov 28, 2:54*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:49:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



You STAY WITH THE CAR. That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

Then quote some of them that say to stay on the highway. *I also don't
think you will find one saysng to stay in your vehicle during a multi
car smashup.

Harry K

Better to stay IN the car than get hit OUT of the car. *In the case of
most multi-car, you can't easily move off the highway.

sI'm jusst saying what the experts say. "get off the road if you
can". I recall seeing mag articles saying that if caught in the
middle of one of those bashes to "get out of the car and off the road
until the crashing stops"

Harry K

On Nov 27, 9:21*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:51:28 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 27, 5:36*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 3:54*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? *And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. * I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. *It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

*You STAY WITH THE CAR. *That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. *And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

To avoid going through it again. *My advice _and the expert's advice_
in heavy fog GET OFF THE RAOD IF YOU CAN. *That is the entire point of
my posts but you keep tying to divert into other things.

Stick to the point and this time try to come up with a reason _not_ to
get as far off the road as possible.

Harry K

* And I NEVER said not to. All I was saying is STAY IN THE DAMNED CAR
IN A BLIZZARD!!!! And YOU said I was going against what the experts
say. *NOWHERE did I say not to get off the road - but if you are stuck
and you can NOT get off the road - STAY IN THE VEHICLE. and make the
vehicle conspicous. The chances of getting hit by anything other than
a snowplough after more than a short time after getting stuck is
pretty slim - you can't move, nor can anyone else.

IF you can still move, without hitting anything or running off the
road, get off the road COMPLETELY as soon as possible. - and STAY IN
THE VEHICLE unless you can reach shelter.

Nice try but the fact remains that I have been discussin ONLY getting
off the highway with your car if you can.

Sorry that you are unable to follow a discussion.

Harry K

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:07:38 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 28, 2:54Â*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:49:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:



You STAY WITH THE CAR. That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

Then quote some of them that say to stay on the highway. Â*I also don't
think you will find one saysng to stay in your vehicle during a multi
car smashup.

Harry K

Better to stay IN the car than get hit OUT of the car. Â*In the case of
most multi-car, you can't easily move off the highway.

sI'm jusst saying what the experts say. "get off the road if you
can". I recall seeing mag articles saying that if caught in the
middle of one of those bashes to "get out of the car and off the road
until the crashing stops"

Harry K
There are often more deaths and serious injuries to those outside the
car than tose inside after the first collision in those MVCs

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:08:33 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 27, 9:21Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:51:28 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 27, 5:36Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 3:54Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53Â*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? Â*You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

Â* Â* €œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* €” Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? Â*And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

Â* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. Â* I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. Â*It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

Â* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

Â*You STAY WITH THE CAR. Â*That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. Â*And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

To avoid going through it again. Â*My advice _and the expert's advice_
in heavy fog GET OFF THE RAOD IF YOU CAN. Â*That is the entire point of
my posts but you keep tying to divert into other things.

Stick to the point and this time try to come up with a reason _not_ to
get as far off the road as possible.

Harry K

Â* And I NEVER said not to. All I was saying is STAY IN THE DAMNED CAR
IN A BLIZZARD!!!! And YOU said I was going against what the experts
say. Â*NOWHERE did I say not to get off the road - but if you are stuck
and you can NOT get off the road - STAY IN THE VEHICLE. and make the
vehicle conspicous. The chances of getting hit by anything other than
a snowplough after more than a short time after getting stuck is
pretty slim - you can't move, nor can anyone else.

IF you can still move, without hitting anything or running off the
road, get off the road COMPLETELY as soon as possible. - and STAY IN
THE VEHICLE unless you can reach shelter.

Nice try but the fact remains that I have been discussin ONLY getting
off the highway with your car if you can.

Sorry that you are unable to follow a discussion.

Harry K
Then how come you've been dissagreeing with me and saying I was
going against the experts opinions when I NEVER said not to get off
the road. I did say sometimes it is IMPOSSIBLE to get off the road. I
think perhaps there is someone else other than, or besides me, that
cannot follow a discussion.

On Nov 28, 7:05*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:07:38 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 28, 2:54*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:49:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

You STAY WITH THE CAR. That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

Then quote some of them that say to stay on the highway. *I also don't
think you will find one saysng to stay in your vehicle during a multi
car smashup.

Harry K

Better to stay IN the car than get hit OUT of the car. *In the case of
most multi-car, you can't easily move off the highway.

sI'm jusst saying what the experts say. *"get off the road if you
can". *I recall seeing mag articles saying that if caught in the
middle of one of those bashes to "get out of the car and off the road
until the crashing stops"

Harry K

*There are often more deaths and serious injuries to those outside the
car than tose inside after the first collision in those MVCs

Which is why the advice is "...until the crashing stops". The point
of getting out of the car and off the road during the crashing is to
keep from getting killed. Once off the road you are (comparitely)
safe.

Harry K

On Nov 27, 9:21*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:51:28 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 27, 5:36*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 3:54*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? *And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. * I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. *It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

*You STAY WITH THE CAR. *That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. *And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

To avoid going through it again. *My advice _and the expert's advice_
in heavy fog GET OFF THE RAOD IF YOU CAN. *That is the entire point of
my posts but you keep tying to divert into other things.

Stick to the point and this time try to come up with a reason _not_ to
get as far off the road as possible.

Harry K

* And I NEVER said not to. All I was saying is STAY IN THE DAMNED CAR
IN A BLIZZARD!!!! And YOU said I was going against what the experts
say. *NOWHERE did I say not to get off the road - but if you are stuck
and you can NOT get off the road - STAY IN THE VEHICLE. and make the
vehicle conspicous. The chances of getting hit by anything other than
a snowplough after more than a short time after getting stuck is
pretty slim - you can't move, nor can anyone else.

IF you can still move, without hitting anything or running off the
road, get off the road COMPLETELY as soon as possible. - and STAY IN
THE VEHICLE unless you can reach shelter.

I'm glad you finally agree with what I said way back up thread. If
you had stuck to the subject all this hoo fa ra wouldn't have
happened.

YOu addition of "blizzard" is not an improvement as the same advice
pertains to both blizzard, fog, dust strom . Where-ever there is
greatly reduced visibility.

Your addition of "stay in the car" was alos an unnedded additon as I
had said nothing at all about it until you added it. The advice from
experts (again) is if you can't get the car off the road - GET OUT OF
THE CAR AND OFF THE ROAD until the crashign ends.

Harry K

On Nov 28, 7:07*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:08:33 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:





On Nov 27, 9:21*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:51:28 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 27, 5:36*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:32:11 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 3:54*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:08:36 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 26, 4:53*am, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-25-2012 23:19, Harry K wrote:

On Nov 24, 12:01 pm, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-24-2012 10:38, Pete C. wrote:

And if you are in a place that is far from the next exit, get as far off
the road as possible, turn off your lights so other vehicles don't
follow your tail lights thinking that's where the road is, and get out
of your vehicle and further away, preferably beyond guardrails or other
barriers.

OK for fog; not OK for blizzard.

Why so? *You are just as likely to get smashed in low visibility in a
blizzard as in a fog..
Of course plow berms, etc may prevent getting off the road.

What are you _more_ likely to get in a blizzard if you get away from
your vehicle?

--
Wes Groleau

* * “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * — Larry Wall

WTF is sthat supposed to mean? Care to put it in a form that has some
logic? *And why is it necessary to 'get away from my vehicle" if I am
well off the roadway?

I am repeating the same information you can find from professionals
both instructors, and, ye, even cops.

Harry K

* Around here you are always told to STAY WITH YOUR VEHICLE. If the
vehicle gets hit you stand a chance. If you get hit outside the
vehicle, you are DEAD. If you get lost in the blizzard, you are DEAD.

Stay in the car. Run the car occaisionally to provide some heat to
prevent freezing to death. Keap the exhaust clear to avoid gassing
yourself to death.

Kinda hard to run a car that has beens squashed. * I have never seen
anyone advise staying in a car on the highway in those multi car
bashes. *It is totally idiotic on the face of it.

Harry K

* Harry - I wasn't talking about in an accident - but you are MANY
TIMES safer in a car being hit than out in the open being hit.

I (and I believe WE) were talking about what to do when you cannot see
because of the blowing snow to AVOID becomming part of one of those
chain reaction collisions.

*You STAY WITH THE CAR. *That is the advice from virtually EVERY
winter driving safety expert. *And the same advice we were given when
winter rallying.

To avoid going through it again. *My advice _and the expert's advice_
in heavy fog GET OFF THE RAOD IF YOU CAN. *That is the entire point of
my posts but you keep tying to divert into other things.

Stick to the point and this time try to come up with a reason _not_ to
get as far off the road as possible.

Harry K

* And I NEVER said not to. All I was saying is STAY IN THE DAMNED CAR
IN A BLIZZARD!!!! And YOU said I was going against what the experts
say. *NOWHERE did I say not to get off the road - but if you are stuck
and you can NOT get off the road - STAY IN THE VEHICLE. and make the
vehicle conspicous. The chances of getting hit by anything other than
a snowplough after more than a short time after getting stuck is
pretty slim - you can't move, nor can anyone else.

IF you can still move, without hitting anything or running off the
road, get off the road COMPLETELY as soon as possible. - and STAY IN
THE VEHICLE unless you can reach shelter.

Nice try but the fact remains that I have been discussin ONLY getting
off the highway with your car if you can.

Sorry that you are unable to follow a discussion.

Harry K

* Then how come you've been dissagreeing with me and saying I was
going against the experts opinions when I NEVER said not to get off
the road. I did say sometimes it is IMPOSSIBLE to get off the road. *I
think perhaps there is someone else other than, or besides me, that
cannot follow a discussion.

NO, you brought in everyting else and I was waiting for you to bring
in the kitchen sink. You never actually addressed _anything_ I said
about getting the car off the road.

Harry K