wrote:


You have a choice. In his hypothetical case of several homes sharing
a transformer, you can either design for worst case or ignore it. The
latter could very well result in the transformer overloading and the
homes being without power.

As with any other big addition of power using equipment, you let the power Cc.
know what you are doing (By getting a permit?) The transformer problem is then
their responsibility. At least that was what I was told when I added a hot tub
years ago.

On Feb 16, 11:00*am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:

You have a choice. * In his hypothetical case of several homes sharing
a transformer, you can either design for worst case or ignore it. *The
latter could very well result in the transformer overloading and the
homes being without power.

As with any other big addition of power using equipment, you let the power Cc.
know what you are doing (By getting a permit?) The transformer problem is then
their responsibility. At least that was what I was told when I added a hot tub
years ago.


You're the first residential user that I ever heard of that notified
the power company because they were installing a hot tub. In the
rest of the residential world, no one is keeping track of what loads
get added. You put in a 200amp service and that's the end of the
story. If you need more capacity, THEN you call the electric company
and upgrade to 300amps.

You have a choice. * In his hypothetical case of several homes sharing
a transformer, you can either design for worst case or ignore it. *The
latter could very well result in the transformer overloading and the
homes being without power.


It puts me in awe of the power of gasoline when you consider that the
equivalent POWER flow through an ordinary filling station hose at the
gas station when you fill up your car is measured in MEGAWATTS!!!

Mark

On Feb 16, 12:38*pm, Mark wrote:
You have a choice. * In his hypothetical case of several homes sharing
a transformer, you can either design for worst case or ignore it. *The
latter could very well result in the transformer overloading and the
homes being without power.

It puts me in awe of the power of gasoline when you consider that the
equivalent POWER flow through an ordinary filling station hose at the
gas station when you fill up your car is measured in MEGAWATTS!!!

Mark

Right now it's not an even comparison. But I think you'll all agree
we're closer to the end of reasonably priced gas than we are from the
beginning. No matter how much you think is left it's definitely a
finite resource. On the other hand there are all sorts of potential
new sources of electricity. Many that are of limited practicality
right now have potential to become more practical either because of
technology improvements or just volume increase. Most are "green" and
do not add to the carbon dioxide load. Like it or not the days of
gasoline powered transportation are numbered.

wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:00 am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:

You have a choice. In his hypothetical case of several homes sharing
a transformer, you can either design for worst case or ignore it.
The latter could very well result in the transformer overloading
and the homes being without power.

As with any other big addition of power using equipment, you let the
power Cc. know what you are doing (By getting a permit?) The
transformer problem is then their responsibility. At least that was
what I was told when I added a hot tub years ago.


You're the first residential user that I ever heard of that notified
the power company because they were installing a hot tub. In the
rest of the residential world, no one is keeping track of what loads
get added. You put in a 200amp service and that's the end of the
story. If you need more capacity, THEN you call the electric company
and upgrade to 300amps.

So no one you know gets an electrical permit when adding a major circuit?

jamesgangnc wrote:

Right now it's not an even comparison. But I think you'll all agree
we're closer to the end of reasonably priced gas than we are from the
beginning. No matter how much you think is left it's definitely a
finite resource.

The SUN is a finite resource!

Just yesterday:

"HOUSTON - ExxonMobil Corp. added two billion barrels of oil equivalent to
its proved oil and gas reserves in 2009, or 133 per cent of its production
for that year, the largest U.S. oil company said Tuesday..."
http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...#ixzz0fnNPrPNg

That is, Exxon FOUND a third more oil than they recovered.




On the other hand there are all sorts of potential
new sources of electricity. Many that are of limited practicality
right now have potential to become more practical either because of
technology improvements or just volume increase. Most are "green" and
do not add to the carbon dioxide load. Like it or not the days of
gasoline powered transportation are numbered.

I agree. If you had asked the average New Yorker in 1910 what would
transportation be like in a hundred years, with a population increase of
five-fold, he'd have probably wondered a) Where would we get enough horses,
and b) What would we do with all the horse ****.

I'm personally rooting for teleportation.

On Feb 16, 7:26*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:00 am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:

You have a choice. In his hypothetical case of several homes sharing
a transformer, you can either design for worst case or ignore it.
The latter could very well result in the transformer overloading
and the homes being without power.

As with any other big addition of power using equipment, you let the
power Cc. know what you are doing (By getting a permit?) The
transformer problem is then their responsibility. At least that was
what I was told when I added a hot tub years ago.

You're the first residential user that I ever heard of that notified
the power company because they were installing a hot tub. * In the
rest of the residential world, no one is keeping track of what loads
get added. *You put in a 200amp service and that's the end of the
story. *If you need more capacity, THEN you call the electric company
and upgrade to 300amps.

So no one you know gets an electrical permit when adding a major circuit?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You get permit for electrical work from the local municipality. They
usually charge a fee and send out an inspector to make sure the work
is done according to code. What does any of that have to do with
your claim that the power company routinely gets notified when you add
a large residential load like a hot tub? Please provide a cite for
that. I'd also welcome hearing from anyone else here that notified
the power company that they were adding a hot tub or similar load.
You notify the power company when you need an upgrade in the service
capacity to the house.

On Feb 17, 1:19*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 17, 9:46 am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:00 am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:

You have a choice. In his hypothetical case of several homes
sharing a transformer, you can either design for worst case or
ignore it. The latter could very well result in the transformer
overloading and the homes being without power.

As with any other big addition of power using equipment, you let
the power Cc. know what you are doing (By getting a permit?) The
transformer problem is then their responsibility. At least that
was what I was told when I added a hot tub years ago.

You're the first residential user that I ever heard of that
notified the power company because they were installing a hot
tub. In the rest of the residential world, no one is keeping
track of what loads get added. You put in a 200amp service and
that's the end of the story. If you need more capacity, THEN you
call the electric company and upgrade to 300amps.

So no one you know gets an electrical permit when adding a major
circuit?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You get permit for electrical work from the local municipality. They
usually charge a fee and send out an inspector to make sure the work
is done according to code. What does any of that have to do with
your claim that the power company routinely gets notified when you
add a large residential load like a hot tub? Please provide a cite
for that. I'd also welcome hearing from anyone else here that
notified the power company that they were adding a hot tub or
similar load. You notify the power company when you need an upgrade
in the service capacity to the house.

Just as I said. The power utility told me they need to know about
major additions. They said if I added something large, and they did
not know, I could be responsible for damage to the transformer. I
assumed that they generally got the info from the permit process,
since a permit is required for any electrical addition.

Complete nonsense. *As long as your usage is within your service
capabilities you have no obligation to inform anyone of added loads.
In some jurisdictions you're required to (though few do) pull a permit
for electrical work, though in reality this is for *tax* purposes.
The power company doesn't know anything about it. *You assume
government is looking out for something other than themselves.
Laughable.

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's laughable?

Well, there's the confusion right there. Many utilities are in the
private
sector. For example, my "city" is Pittsfield Township. My electric
utility is
DTE Energy, a publicly traded corporation.

Cindy Hamilton

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's laughable?



I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Bob F wrote:

Just as I said. The power utility told me they need to know about
major additions. They said if I added something large, and they did
not know, I could be responsible for damage to the transformer. I
assumed that they generally got the info from the permit process,
since a permit is required for any electrical addition.

I used to work as a programmer for a company that monitored electric loads
for smaller power companies, typically Rural Electric Cooperatives. One of
the selling points of our software was the administrators would be better
able to correct transformer loading. One director told our sales
representative:

"What's to monitor? If a transformer blows, we replace it with a bigger one.
End of story."

On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think of
just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city",
so you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think
of just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?

Yeah, but that's California where the word for government ownership of the
means of production is "normal."

Now my city owns the water system - and makes a small profit. The real
reason for city ownership, I've been told, is so the city can keep up with
buildings and so forth for tax purposes.

"HeyBub" wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think
of just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?

Yeah, but that's California where the word for government ownership of the
means of production is "normal."

Several cities in that greatest of red states, Texas, own their electric
utilities, including the capital, Austin (a blue island in a sea of red). Also,
Garland, near Dallas, as red as you can get.

OK, when did red shift from liberal pinko commie red to god fearing conservative
red?

-- Doug

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think of
just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".


I didn't say that. Read it again.


I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city"


Doesn't say they aren't the same in some places, but it does say it
isn't true everywhere. Two cities near me by bulk electric, then rip
off residents and business by doubling the cost to everyone else in the
area.


Now who's laughing?


Me, at you for your very poor reading skills.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Douglas Johnson wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think
of just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?

Yeah, but that's California where the word for government ownership of the
means of production is "normal."

Several cities in that greatest of red states, Texas, own their electric
utilities, including the capital, Austin (a blue island in a sea of red). Also,
Garland, near Dallas, as red as you can get.

OK, when did red shift from liberal pinko commie red to god fearing conservative
red?

-- Doug



When one of the TV networks news department painted a large US map on
the floor of their studio and chose red and blue for the two major
political parties for a presidential election. We know how liberal most
of MSM is.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Feb 18, 12:07*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's laughable?

* *I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think of
just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. Then he
claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical work.
Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to be run by
the municipality, that when you get an electric permit, that counts as
notifying the utility.

No question there are some electric utilities owned and run by
municipalities. The rest of that is obvious hogwash. Any of us
that have actually pulled permits know that the permit doesn't ask for
or calculate the actual load. You get a permit to put in a new 50
amp sub-panel or a permit to put in six 15 amp circuits. Big deal,
what does that mean? It says nothing about what might or might not
actually be connected to those circuits, only the theoretical
maximum. And the utility already knows what the theoretical maximum
is. It's the service rating installed to the house, eg 200 amps.

wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't
think of just at the moment run their own power systems within their
cities. Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power
authority. So yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. Then he
claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical work.
Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to be run by
the municipality, that when you get an electric permit, that counts as
notifying the utility.

I only relayed what I was told by the city inspector or the utility worker (not
sure which). OK - they must be liers.

On Feb 18, 10:11*am, wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:



On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's laughable?

* *I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't think of
just at the moment run their own power systems within their cities.
Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power authority. So
yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?

I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. * First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. * Then he
claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical work.
Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to be run by
the municipality, that when you get an electric permit, that counts as
notifying the utility.

He also claimed that the muni *always* notified the power company,
even were they weren't under the same political entity.

No question there are some electric utilities owned and run by
municipalities. * The rest of that is obvious hogwash. * Any of us
that have actually pulled permits know that the permit doesn't ask for
or calculate the actual load. * *You get a permit to put in a new 50
amp sub-panel or a permit to put in six 15 amp circuits. * Big deal,
what does that mean? * *It says nothing about what might or might not
actually be connected to those circuits, only the theoretical
maximum. * *And the utility already knows what the theoretical maximum
is. *It's the service rating installed to the house, eg 200 amps.

The only permit I have ever pulled was for a garage and the power was
ancillary. There was no mention of number of circuits or their
ampacity or any other implementation details.
The inspector inspected what was there.

Bob F wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't
think of just at the moment run their own power systems within their
cities. Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power
authority. So yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. Then he
claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical work.
Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to be run by
the municipality, that when you get an electric permit, that counts as
notifying the utility.

I only relayed what I was told by the city inspector or the utility worker (not
sure which). OK - they must be liers.


Liers? You mean 'Liars', unless the 'P' fell off your Pliers.

It's more likely that they are not well trained. Any time I wanted
real answers, I contacted the city engineer or the engineers at what
ever utility was involved.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Douglas Johnson wrote:

Yeah, but that's California where the word for government ownership
of the means of production is "normal."

Several cities in that greatest of red states, Texas, own their
electric utilities, including the capital, Austin (a blue island in a
sea of red). Also, Garland, near Dallas, as red as you can get.

OK, when did red shift from liberal pinko commie red to god fearing
conservative red?


I think it comes from the usual reaction of progressives when they don't get
their way: the hold their breath until they turn blue (sometimes accompanied
by foot-stamping).

Conversely, conservatives maintain a healthy pink constitution. Sometimes
aided by home-made alcohol.

On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:51:56 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far from
where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I can't
think of just at the moment run their own power systems within their
cities. Marin County just decided to set up a county-wide power
authority. So yes, in many places "the power utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. Then he
claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical work.
Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to be run by
the municipality, that when you get an electric permit, that counts as
notifying the utility.

I only relayed what I was told by the city inspector or the utility worker (not
sure which). OK - they must be liers.

Well, there certainly is a LIAR here. Since you "can't remember" who
told you this nonsense...

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?



I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

I've lived where the power utility was owned by the city- it's not uncommon.
However, the utility's mandate is on it's side of the metering. Permits
apply to your side of the metering and code compliance /inspection covers
your ass with the insurance company if something goes wrong. If the utility
underestimated load growth and diversity- it is their problem (which will
filter down to the customer base as a whole, rather than the individual).
Whatever, I agree, it is laughable-the utility can't even detect the
possibility of a grow-op until suspicious meter readings appear or the
secondaries to the house of concern let out magic smoke.

-----
Don Kelly
cross out to reply

wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?



I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city", so
you are laughable.

I've lived where the power utility was owned by the city- it's not uncommon.
However, the utility's mandate is on it's side of the metering. Permits
apply to your side of the metering and code compliance /inspection covers
your ass with the insurance company if something goes wrong. If the utility
underestimated load growth and diversity- it is their problem (which will
filter down to the customer base as a whole, rather than the individual).
Whatever, I agree, it is laughable-the utility can't even detect the
possibility of a grow-op until suspicious meter readings appear or the
secondaries to the house of concern let out magic smoke.


No kidding. Local code requires a 200 amp service around here, yet
the primaries are still designed and fused for 60 amp service. This
subdivison was built in the mid '60s, and was designed for about 18 A @
240 V average per home. That was fine when the houses used propane to
cook and for heat. No one had air conditioning or electric stoves. A
60 A fuse in the primary around the corner goes on a regular basis.
Usually on Friday evenings and within a few minutes of 5:00 PM when
everyone gets home from work. They turn up the AC and start cooking.
Then you hear the fuse explode like a shotgun.

It isn't as bad right now because several of the houses are vacant.
It is a mostly senior subdivision and they are empty, awaiting probate.
Others were bought by snowbirds, so they are empty through the summer
but it still goes about once a month.

Most utility workers are trained for a very narrow range of work, and
have little or no idea of the engineering behind the company or the
rules & regulations they set.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

wrote:

I've lived where the power utility was owned by the city- it's not uncommon.


I hit send too fast.

That's similar to living on a military base where they run the
utilities, except they didn't meter the electric. They also supplied
the water, natural gas (Where available), diesel fuel for the generators
at remote bases and steam to heat buildings in cold climates. They
operated the CATV and telephone systems, and in a few places they had
the only local radio or TV station and printed the newspaper.

Ft. Greely, AK. was like that, except for natural gas which wasn't
available.


I live within 15 miles of two city operated electric utilities. The
rates are about double what people outside the city limits pay, and all
the electricity comes from the same power plants. Then they complain
when businesses move out of the city, or the county because of high
taxes & utilities.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

wrote:

I've lived where the power utility was owned by the city- it's not
uncommon.


I hit send too fast.

That's similar to living on a military base where they run the
utilities, except they didn't meter the electric. They also supplied
the water, natural gas (Where available), diesel fuel for the generators
at remote bases and steam to heat buildings in cold climates. They
operated the CATV and telephone systems, and in a few places they had
the only local radio or TV station and printed the newspaper.

Ft. Greely, AK. was like that, except for natural gas which wasn't
available.


I live within 15 miles of two city operated electric utilities. The
rates are about double what people outside the city limits pay, and all
the electricity comes from the same power plants. Then they complain
when businesses move out of the city, or the county because of high
taxes & utilities.
------------------
Actually the rates were competitive. Rates in the whole region, including
the city went up when de-regulation came in with chain store economics-
maximise short term profit.
--
-----
Don Kelly
cross out to reply



--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

wrote:

I've lived where the power utility was owned by the city- it's not
uncommon.


I hit send too fast.

That's similar to living on a military base where they run the
utilities, except they didn't meter the electric. They also supplied
the water, natural gas (Where available), diesel fuel for the generators
at remote bases and steam to heat buildings in cold climates. They
operated the CATV and telephone systems, and in a few places they had
the only local radio or TV station and printed the newspaper.

Ft. Greely, AK. was like that, except for natural gas which wasn't
available.


I live within 15 miles of two city operated electric utilities. The
rates are about double what people outside the city limits pay, and all
the electricity comes from the same power plants. Then they complain
when businesses move out of the city, or the county because of high
taxes & utilities.
------------------
Actually the rates were competitive. Rates in the whole region, including
the city went up when de-regulation came in with chain store economics-
maximise short term profit.


Not around here. The cities base a lot of their budget on the money
they collect by jacking up the utility bills. Now they are crying
because a lot of people have cut back their use, and a lot of
restaurants and small businesses have closed which took a lot of their
revenue.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:37:36 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

wrote:

I've lived where the power utility was owned by the city- it's not
uncommon.


I hit send too fast.

That's similar to living on a military base where they run the
utilities, except they didn't meter the electric. They also supplied
the water, natural gas (Where available), diesel fuel for the generators
at remote bases and steam to heat buildings in cold climates. They
operated the CATV and telephone systems, and in a few places they had
the only local radio or TV station and printed the newspaper.

Ft. Greely, AK. was like that, except for natural gas which wasn't
available.


I live within 15 miles of two city operated electric utilities. The
rates are about double what people outside the city limits pay, and all
the electricity comes from the same power plants. Then they complain
when businesses move out of the city, or the county because of high
taxes & utilities.
------------------
Actually the rates were competitive. Rates in the whole region, including
the city went up when de-regulation came in with chain store economics-
maximise short term profit.


Not around here. The cities base a lot of their budget on the money
they collect by jacking up the utility bills. Now they are crying
because a lot of people have cut back their use, and a lot of
restaurants and small businesses have closed which took a lot of their
revenue.

Out electric rates (city owned electric company) are pretty
reasonable, though I admit I haven't checked the area outside the
city. We're paying under $.10/kWh, which certainly can't be double.
Our highest bill this winter, a cold one, was about $175.

krw wrote:

Out electric rates (city owned electric company) are pretty
reasonable, though I admit I haven't checked the area outside the
city. We're paying under $.10/kWh, which certainly can't be double.
Our highest bill this winter, a cold one, was about $175.


Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:18:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


krw wrote:

Out electric rates (city owned electric company) are pretty
reasonable, though I admit I haven't checked the area outside the
city. We're paying under $.10/kWh, which certainly can't be double.
Our highest bill this winter, a cold one, was about $175.


Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.

The income tax isn't outrageous, and property tax here is cheap. They
do have a real PITA sales tax, though (8%, 10% in Montgomery, but who
would spend money there?).

� �Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.


flororida heavily taxes tourists to help keep residents taxes lower

thins like a 23% room tax.

krw wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:18:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


krw wrote:

Out electric rates (city owned electric company) are pretty
reasonable, though I admit I haven't checked the area outside the
city. We're paying under $.10/kWh, which certainly can't be double.
Our highest bill this winter, a cold one, was about $175.


Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.

The income tax isn't outrageous, and property tax here is cheap. They
do have a real PITA sales tax, though (8%, 10% in Montgomery, but who
would spend money there?).


Sales tax is 6% right now. It keeps changing. My property taxes are
about $700 per year. They went up quite a bit over the last 10 years,
even with the so called 'Homestead Exemption' and '$5,000 'Disability
Exemption' The actual property taxes are low, but they add a lot of
fees which adds over $400 to the annual bill.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

" wrote:

� �Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.


flororida heavily taxes tourists to help keep residents taxes lower

thins like a 23% room tax.


We had to do something so they didn't stay so long. Still, they
get off cheap when compared to what the residents have to pay.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Feb 21, 1:55*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
" wrote:

Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.

flororida heavily taxes tourists to help keep residents taxes lower

thins like a 23% room tax.

* *We had to do something so they didn't stay so long. *Still, they
get off cheap when compared to what the residents have to pay.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

I think the idea that FL heavily taxes tourists because they don't
have a state income tax is bogus. The hotel room tax in Miami or
Orlando is 2.5%. For those of us that travel, that rate isn't out of
line with rates that you can find in other major tourist destinations
in other states that have income taxes.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 01:52:50 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


krw wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:18:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


krw wrote:

Out electric rates (city owned electric company) are pretty
reasonable, though I admit I haven't checked the area outside the
city. We're paying under $.10/kWh, which certainly can't be double.
Our highest bill this winter, a cold one, was about $175.


Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.

The income tax isn't outrageous, and property tax here is cheap. They
do have a real PITA sales tax, though (8%, 10% in Montgomery, but who
would spend money there?).


Sales tax is 6% right now. It keeps changing. My property taxes are
about $700 per year. They went up quite a bit over the last 10 years,
even with the so called 'Homestead Exemption' and '$5,000 'Disability
Exemption' The actual property taxes are low, but they add a lot of
fees which adds over $400 to the annual bill.

My taxes are $1500, with no "fees" other than services (electric,
garbage, water) for a 2600sq.ft. 3-1/2 bath new house. The taxes here
do include a 50% homestead exemption so they do try to rape those with
second homes.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:54:38 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 21, 1:55*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
" wrote:

Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.

flororida heavily taxes tourists to help keep residents taxes lower

thins like a 23% room tax.

* *We had to do something so they didn't stay so long. *Still, they
get off cheap when compared to what the residents have to pay.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

I think the idea that FL heavily taxes tourists because they don't
have a state income tax is bogus. The hotel room tax in Miami or
Orlando is 2.5%. For those of us that travel, that rate isn't out of
line with rates that you can find in other major tourist destinations
in other states that have income taxes.

2.5% is *low*. Many places it's 10% or more.

wrote:

On Feb 21, 1:55 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
" wrote:

Florida brags about no state income tax, but hopes that you don't
notice the thousands of other taxes they use to replace it.

flororida heavily taxes tourists to help keep residents taxes lower

thins like a 23% room tax.

We had to do something so they didn't stay so long. Still, they
get off cheap when compared to what the residents have to pay.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

I think the idea that FL heavily taxes tourists because they don't
have a state income tax is bogus. The hotel room tax in Miami or
Orlando is 2.5%. For those of us that travel, that rate isn't out of
line with rates that you can find in other major tourist destinations
in other states that have income taxes.


Don't forget the taxes on airports, bus or train tickets or port fees
on cruise ships. If you listen to some of the tourists, Florida is the
most expensive place to vacation.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

krw wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:51:56 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city",
so you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far
from where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I
can't think of just at the moment run their own power systems
within their cities. Marin County just decided to set up a
county-wide power authority. So yes, in many places "the power
utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. Then
he claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical
work. Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to
be run by the municipality, that when you get an electric permit,
that counts as notifying the utility.

I only relayed what I was told by the city inspector or the utility
worker (not sure which). OK - they must be liers.

Well, there certainly is a LIAR here. Since you "can't remember" who
told you this nonsense...

Can you remember the exact details of everything that happened to you years ago?

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:56:11 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:51:56 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city",
so you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far
from where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I
can't think of just at the moment run their own power systems
within their cities. Marin County just decided to set up a
county-wide power authority. So yes, in many places "the power
utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First he
claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly. Then
he claimed it was because you had to get a permit for electrical
work. Then he claimed that because his electric utility happens to
be run by the municipality, that when you get an electric permit,
that counts as notifying the utility.

I only relayed what I was told by the city inspector or the utility
worker (not sure which). OK - they must be liers.

Well, there certainly is a LIAR here. Since you "can't remember" who
told you this nonsense...

Can you remember the exact details of everything that happened to you years ago?

I don't "repeat" lies.

krw wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:56:11 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:51:56 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 18, 12:07 am, David Nebenzahl
wrote:
On 2/17/2010 1:00 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

Bob F wrote:

The permits are the city, the power utility is the city. What's
laughable?

I've never lived anywhere where "the power utility is the city",
so you are laughable.

You've never heard of municipal power companies? Lessee, not far
from where I live, Palo Alto, Sacramento, and several others I
can't think of just at the moment run their own power systems
within their cities. Marin County just decided to set up a
county-wide power authority. So yes, in many places "the power
utility is the city".

Now who's laughing?



I guess we still are laughing because the real issue was that the
poster claimed utilities are routinely notified by residential
customers when they add significant loads to their homes. First
he claimed it was required of homeowners by utilities directly.
Then he claimed it was because you had to get a permit for
electrical work. Then he claimed that because his electric
utility happens to be run by the municipality, that when you get
an electric permit, that counts as notifying the utility.

I only relayed what I was told by the city inspector or the utility
worker (not sure which). OK - they must be liers.

Well, there certainly is a LIAR here. Since you "can't remember"
who told you this nonsense...

Can you remember the exact details of everything that happened to
you years ago?

I don't "repeat" lies.

NO lie!

I just got a callback from a chief inspector at Seattle City Light. He quoted me
the part of the Seattle City Code that requires notification of load additions.
It is the law here. He also said, he didn't personally know who you would
notify. Generally, he said, they find out when service entrance updates are
done, since they hook up the power. But, by law, you are supposed to notify the
utility, and if you don't, you are responsible for repairs, if for instance, the
transformer blows.

krw wrote:

I live within 15 miles of two city operated electric utilities.
The rates are about double what people outside the city limits
pay, and all the electricity comes from the same power plants.
Then they complain when businesses move out of the city, or the
county because of high taxes & utilities.
------------------
Actually the rates were competitive. Rates in the whole region,
including the city went up when de-regulation came in with chain
store economics- maximise short term profit.


Not around here. The cities base a lot of their budget on the
money they collect by jacking up the utility bills. Now they are
crying because a lot of people have cut back their use, and a lot of
restaurants and small businesses have closed which took a lot of
their revenue.

Out electric rates (city owned electric company) are pretty
reasonable, though I admit I haven't checked the area outside the
city. We're paying under $.10/kWh, which certainly can't be double.
Our highest bill this winter, a cold one, was about $175.

Seattle rates are similar to Puget sound Energy which services surrounding
areas.

Seattle 1st 300 kwh/mo $.0439 Additional $.0914

PSE 1st 600 kwh/mo $.084 Additional $.102