So, I decided to spend Christmas Eve replacing a wall outlet that no
longer held electrical plugs very well.

Swapped out the single white wire, the single red wire, the single
black wire and connected the green ground wire.

Now, said outlet works fine....but...

Originally, I had a wall switch across the room that turned off the
power to the outlet I just replaced, as well as to a second outlet in
the same room.

Now, the wall switch no longer controls the power to the outlets.

The wall toggle switch can be on or off, doesn't matter, power still
flows to both outlets.

What did I screw up. In other words, how can I get it back to where
when I put the toggle switch to off, both table lamps turn off....

tim birr wrote:
So, I decided to spend Christmas Eve replacing a wall outlet that no
longer held electrical plugs very well.

Swapped out the single white wire, the single red wire, the single
black wire and connected the green ground wire.

Now, said outlet works fine....but...

Originally, I had a wall switch across the room that turned off the
power to the outlet I just replaced, as well as to a second outlet in
the same room.

Now, the wall switch no longer controls the power to the outlets.

The wall toggle switch can be on or off, doesn't matter, power still
flows to both outlets.

What did I screw up. In other words, how can I get it back to where
when I put the toggle switch to off, both table lamps turn off....


Typically you only need black, white, and ground for a receptacle. The
presence of a red wire leads me to believe that only half the recep was
controlled by the switch and that the other half was always hot. Do you
still have the recep that you removed? Fish it out of the trash, I bet
you will find that between the two screws on the neutral side there is a
tab bridging the two connections, but on the hot side that tab will have
been broke noff. So if that is the case pull the new recep out and
break that tab off (do I need to say turn off the power?) and whichever
side of the recep is connected to the switch, probably the red wire not
the black, will now be controlled by the switch again.

good luck

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
tim birr wrote:
So, I decided to spend Christmas Eve replacing a wall outlet that no
longer held electrical plugs very well.

Swapped out the single white wire, the single red wire, the single
black wire and connected the green ground wire.

Now, said outlet works fine....but...

Originally, I had a wall switch across the room that turned off the
power to the outlet I just replaced, as well as to a second outlet
in the same room.

Now, the wall switch no longer controls the power to the outlets.

The wall toggle switch can be on or off, doesn't matter, power still
flows to both outlets.

What did I screw up. In other words, how can I get it back to where
when I put the toggle switch to off, both table lamps turn off....


Typically you only need black, white, and ground for a receptacle. The
presence of a red wire leads me to believe that only half the
recep was controlled by the switch and that the other half was always
hot. Do you still have the recep that you removed? Fish it out of
the trash, I bet you will find that between the two screws on the
neutral side there is a tab bridging the two connections, but on the
hot side that tab will have been broke noff. So if that is the case
pull the new recep out and break that tab off (do I need to say turn
off the power?) and whichever side of the recep is connected to the
switch, probably the red wire not the black, will now be controlled
by the switch again.
good luck

nate

That is the solution for a common problem with outlets that are replaced by
people who are not familiar with this method of wiring switched outlets.

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:46:36 -0800 (PST), tim birr
wrote:

So, I decided to spend Christmas Eve replacing a wall outlet that no
longer held electrical plugs very well.

Swapped out the single white wire, the single red wire, the single
black wire and connected the green ground wire.

Now, said outlet works fine....but...

Originally, I had a wall switch across the room that turned off the
power to the outlet I just replaced, as well as to a second outlet in
the same room.

Now, the wall switch no longer controls the power to the outlets.

The wall toggle switch can be on or off, doesn't matter, power still
flows to both outlets.

What did I screw up. In other words, how can I get it back to where
when I put the toggle switch to off, both table lamps turn off....

There are "break off" tabs between the screw terminals on each side of
the receptacle. Normally you don't break them off and then you can
hook the wires to either of the two screws on a side. But when you
have one of the outlets on a switch you need to break off the tab on
the side that had two wires going to it. I can't be certain of the
colors that were used on yours but I would expect that one side of the
switch has one white wire going to it and you would not break off the
tab on that side. The other side probably has a black and red wire
going to it's two screws. You would break off the tab that goes
between the two screws. That's assuming it has a tab, it's possible
that cheap ones don't have the tab.
There's a picture here
http://www.handymanclub.com/uploaded...rass-tab-1.jpg

The black and red should be connected to the brass colored screws and
the white (neutral) wire to the silver colored ones.

tim birr wrote:
So, I decided to spend Christmas Eve replacing a wall outlet that no
longer held electrical plugs very well.

Swapped out the single white wire, the single red wire, the single
black wire and connected the green ground wire.

Now, said outlet works fine....but...

Originally, I had a wall switch across the room that turned off the
power to the outlet I just replaced, as well as to a second outlet in
the same room.

Now, the wall switch no longer controls the power to the outlets.

The wall toggle switch can be on or off, doesn't matter, power still
flows to both outlets.

What did I screw up. In other words, how can I get it back to where
when I put the toggle switch to off, both table lamps turn off....

Disconnect the black wire, put a wire-nut on it and call it good.

If you do this, both outlets will be energized by the switch. If you want
only ONE of the two outlets switched and the other live all the time,
there's more to it.

Original poster here again:

Well, Miracle on 34th Street, or maybe "Circle Place."

Cutting the tab did the trick and all works fine now. Thank you all.

All the "original outlets" here are "stick the wire in the hole" types
where the red, black and white wires are held by some sort of spring
"thing" in the outlet. The theory is that you stick a screwdriver in a
slot and the wires pop free -- but they don't

I can never get them out, so I always end up breaking the old wall
outlet apart to get the wires free.

I always replace with Seymour Pass 20 amp outlets that have a very
easy way to fasten the wires down. It involves a screw, but the wire
is crushed between plates, no wrapping around screws.

I'm curious about "Hey Bub's" solution. I did not see it until I had
already "broke the tab."

The reason I am curious is because breaking the tab was not all that
easy. The top half broke right off, but it took a lot of digging with
a galvanized nail, screwdriver etc. to break the other half of the
tab. It took me about 20 minutes. There has to be a better
way...maybe if I had needlenose "nippers," but I don't.

Anyway, thanks again all. Solution worked perfectly.

Tim

tim birr wrote:

The reason I am curious is because breaking the tab was not all that
easy. The top half broke right off, but it took a lot of digging with
a galvanized nail, screwdriver etc. to break the other half of the
tab. It took me about 20 minutes. There has to be a better
way...maybe if I had needlenose "nippers," but I don't.

You can spend thousands of dollars on tools, and fill a whole shop with
them. More importantly, however, is acquiring a couple dozen types and
sizes of "pliers": needle-nose, slip-ring, locking, nippers, dikes,
tweezers, forceps, and the like.

Same with screwdrivers.

Basic hand tools are the backbone of any well-equipped shop.

Jon

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
tim birr wrote:

The reason I am curious is because breaking the tab was not all that
easy. The top half broke right off, but it took a lot of digging with
a galvanized nail, screwdriver etc. to break the other half of the
tab. It took me about 20 minutes. There has to be a better
way...maybe if I had needlenose "nippers," but I don't.

You can spend thousands of dollars on tools, and fill a whole shop with
them. More importantly, however, is acquiring a couple dozen types and
sizes of "pliers": needle-nose, slip-ring, locking, nippers, dikes,
tweezers, forceps, and the like.

Same with screwdrivers.

Basic hand tools are the backbone of any well-equipped shop.

Jon

And then there's those kind of things you use once a year, but when you need
them, they will save you either hours of work, or destroying what you are
trying to fix. Sometimes you even have to build a tool that you may only
use once, or just a few times after that.

Steve

Jon Danniken wrote:
tim birr wrote:

The reason I am curious is because breaking the tab was not all that
easy. The top half broke right off, but it took a lot of digging with
a galvanized nail, screwdriver etc. to break the other half of the
tab. It took me about 20 minutes. There has to be a better
way...maybe if I had needlenose "nippers," but I don't.

You can spend thousands of dollars on tools, and fill a whole shop with
them. More importantly, however, is acquiring a couple dozen types and
sizes of "pliers": needle-nose, slip-ring, locking, nippers, dikes,
tweezers, forceps, and the like.

Same with screwdrivers.

Basic hand tools are the backbone of any well-equipped shop.

Jon


Hmm,
I'd say basic hand tools are for every home owner.

tim birr wrote:
nk you all.



Anyway, thanks again all. Solution worked perfectly.

Tim



Hi,
I wonder if you wear glasses(vision problem)?

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:46:36 -0800 (PST), tim birr
wrote:

So, I decided to spend Christmas Eve replacing a wall outlet that no
longer held electrical plugs very well.

Swapped out the single white wire, the single red wire, the single
black wire and connected the green ground wire.

Now, said outlet works fine....but...

Originally, I had a wall switch across the room that turned off the
power to the outlet I just replaced, as well as to a second outlet in
the same room.

Now, the wall switch no longer controls the power to the outlets.

The wall toggle switch can be on or off, doesn't matter, power still
flows to both outlets.

What did I screw up. In other words, how can I get it back to where
when I put the toggle switch to off, both table lamps turn off....

Go to sleep. Santa will fix it.

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:01:07 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

tim birr wrote:

The reason I am curious is because breaking the tab was not all that
easy. The top half broke right off, but it took a lot of digging with
a galvanized nail, screwdriver etc. to break the other half of the
tab. It took me about 20 minutes. There has to be a better
way...maybe if I had needlenose "nippers," but I don't.

Did you try to cut it or just bend it back and forth until it breaks?
I think you're supposed to do the latter.

And I think they're designed so you can put in a moderately wide
screwdriver under the "horizontal" part and bend it one direction with
that. What they often call an electrician's screwdriver, iirc, pretty
long an dnarrow enough for the screws that hold the wall plates on.
Anyhow, that's what Santa uses.

You can spend thousands of dollars on tools, and fill a whole shop with
them. More importantly, however, is acquiring a couple dozen types and
sizes of "pliers": needle-nose, slip-ring, locking, nippers, dikes,
tweezers, forceps, and the like.
Same with screwdrivers.
Basic hand tools are the backbone of any well-equipped shop.
Jon

I've found that no matter many tools I have, at home or with me at the
time, I need every one of them.

And no matter how few tools I have with me, I can still get it done.

It's amazing.

"tim birr" wrote in message
...
Original poster here again:

Well, Miracle on 34th Street, or maybe "Circle Place."

Cutting the tab did the trick and all works fine now. Thank you all.

All the "original outlets" here are "stick the wire in the hole" types
where the red, black and white wires are held by some sort of spring
"thing" in the outlet. The theory is that you stick a screwdriver in a
slot and the wires pop free -- but they don't

I can never get them out, so I always end up breaking the old wall
outlet apart to get the wires free.

I always replace with Seymour Pass 20 amp outlets that have a very
easy way to fasten the wires down. It involves a screw, but the wire
is crushed between plates, no wrapping around screws.

I'm curious about "Hey Bub's" solution. I did not see it until I had
already "broke the tab."

The reason I am curious is because breaking the tab was not all that
easy. The top half broke right off, but it took a lot of digging with
a galvanized nail, screwdriver etc. to break the other half of the
tab. It took me about 20 minutes. There has to be a better
way...maybe if I had needlenose "nippers," but I don't.

Anyway, thanks again all. Solution worked perfectly.

Tim

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage rated
one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp
circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.

On Dec 25, 5:06*am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage rated
one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp
circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of course
cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of material
instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed original
outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."

tim birr wrote:
....
All the "original outlets" here are "stick the wire in the hole" types
where the red, black and white wires are held by some sort of spring
"thing" in the outlet. The theory is that you stick a screwdriver in a
slot and the wires pop free -- but they don't

I can never get them out, so I always end up breaking the old wall
outlet apart to get the wires free.
....

Never had one yet that wouldn't assuming you have a small-enough blade
to actually insert into the opening and push it sufficiently far enough
to actually release the spring.

Even w/o, a pair of pliers and pulling while rotating back and forth and
the wire will "walk" back out. Certainly no need to destroy the
receptacle (or switch/whatever).

--

dpb wrote:
tim birr wrote:
...
All the "original outlets" here are "stick the wire in the hole" types
where the red, black and white wires are held by some sort of spring
"thing" in the outlet. The theory is that you stick a screwdriver in a
slot and the wires pop free -- but they don't

I can never get them out, so I always end up breaking the old wall
outlet apart to get the wires free.
...

Never had one yet that wouldn't assuming you have a small-enough blade
to actually insert into the opening and push it sufficiently far enough
to actually release the spring.

Even w/o, a pair of pliers and pulling while rotating back and forth and
the wire will "walk" back out. Certainly no need to destroy the
receptacle (or switch/whatever).

--

I"ve had some pretty cheap ones where I would release the tab but the
tab would break off the contact. I replaced 'em all with new spec grade
ones with wires under the screw terminals.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

tim birr wrote:
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage rated
one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp
circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -


Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.


I would recommend using 15A "spec grade" receptacles, and also use "spec
grade" for any replacement switches as well. I too have done the
"replace the receps because they won't hold a plug anymore" dance.
Yeah, the "residential grade" stuff will probably last 10 years or so,
but why not use the best stuff when most of the "cost" of the job is
your labor?

if your new recep looks like this:

http://www.dale-electric.com/detail?itemnumber=CR15-I

then you're good.

if it looks like this:

http://www.dale-electric.com/detail?itemnumber=CR20-I

that's a 20A recep (note the added sideways slot on the neutral side;
it'll accept a NEMA 5-15 (standard household 120V) plug or a 5-20 (120V
20A) plug. Those should only be used on a circuit with a 20A breaker.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
tim birr wrote:
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage rated
one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp
circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as you didn't
mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -


Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.


I would recommend using 15A "spec grade" receptacles, and also use "spec
grade" for any replacement switches as well. I too have done the
"replace the receps because they won't hold a plug anymore" dance. Yeah,
the "residential grade" stuff will probably last 10 years or so, but why
not use the best stuff when most of the "cost" of the job is your labor?

if your new recep looks like this:

http://www.dale-electric.com/detail?itemnumber=CR15-I

then you're good.

if it looks like this:

http://www.dale-electric.com/detail?itemnumber=CR20-I

that's a 20A recep (note the added sideways slot on the neutral side;
it'll accept a NEMA 5-15 (standard household 120V) plug or a 5-20 (120V
20A) plug. Those should only be used on a circuit with a 20A breaker.

nate


Which reminds me of something I was curious about - I've seen in older
houses (predating grounded wiring) some duplex receps that have two
vertical slots, like a modern NEMA 5-15R without the ground pin, but
also a horizontal slot for *both* the hot and neutral side. Not knowing
the proper name/designation of these I can't find a pic, but hopefully
someone knows what I'm talking about. What was the purpose of the two
horizontal slots?

thanks

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:53:44 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

[snip]

Which reminds me of something I was curious about - I've seen in older
houses (predating grounded wiring) some duplex receps that have two
vertical slots, like a modern NEMA 5-15R without the ground pin, but
also a horizontal slot for *both* the hot and neutral side. Not knowing
the proper name/designation of these I can't find a pic, but hopefully
someone knows what I'm talking about. What was the purpose of the two
horizontal slots?

thanks

nate

I've seen those a lot in old houses, but have no idea what those are
for. Could this be the missing 2-15R on the NEMA charts? Possibly some
240V heating appliances would work on 120V (just not heat as much)?
--
10 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

dpb wrote:

Even w/o, a pair of pliers and pulling while rotating back and forth
and the wire will "walk" back out. Certainly no need to destroy the
receptacle (or switch/whatever).

Why not destroy it?

"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be using
is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage rated
one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp
circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as you didn't
mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of course
cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of material
instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed original
outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had several
main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires in your new
panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on or off.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:40:41 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:20:30 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:53:44 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

[snip]

Which reminds me of something I was curious about - I've seen in older
houses (predating grounded wiring) some duplex receps that have two
vertical slots, like a modern NEMA 5-15R without the ground pin, but
also a horizontal slot for *both* the hot and neutral side. Not knowing
the proper name/designation of these I can't find a pic, but hopefully
someone knows what I'm talking about. What was the purpose of the two
horizontal slots?

thanks

nate

I've seen those a lot in old houses, but have no idea what those are
for. Could this be the missing 2-15R on the NEMA charts? Possibly some
240V heating appliances would work on 120V (just not heat as much)?

2-15
It is not missing everywhere

http://www.quail.com/nema.cfm

I didn't say 2-15, I said 2-15R. That is missing from the table you
linked to. Only 2-15P is there.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles
on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as
you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of course
cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of material
instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed original
outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel, and the
only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing, nada, on
the power bars or anywhere else. I know for sure; I always check for power
presence either with a meter or the ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the
entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

Twayne
--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:08:23 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles
on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as
you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of course
cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of material
instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed original
outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel, and the
only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing, nada, on
the power bars or anywhere else. I know for sure; I always check for power
presence either with a meter or the ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the
entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

What is the ol' screwdriver test?

Metspitzer wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:08:23 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles
on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as
you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -

Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of course
cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of material
instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed original
outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.
What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel, and the
only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing, nada, on
the power bars or anywhere else. I know for sure; I always check for power
presence either with a meter or the ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the
entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

What is the ol' screwdriver test?

That's a quick way to burn down a house, as somebody actually proved not
long ago -- I think the news item was even discussed in this newsgroup.

Metspitzer wrote:

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel,
and the only power left in the box is going TO those breakers.
Nothing, nada, on the power bars or anywhere else. I know for
sure; I always check for power presence either with a meter or the
ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

What is the ol' screwdriver test?

It's a near relative of the "Smoke Test."

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp receptacles
on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what you've done, as
you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here several
years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main panel. I think
that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of course
cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of material
instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed original
outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel, and
the only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing, nada,
on the power bars or anywhere else. I know for sure; I always check for
power presence either with a meter or the ol' screwdriver test (but not
inside the entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

Twayne
--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.



From what you've written, I can't tell what you've missed, didn't miss, or
what you're talking about.
My statement to the OP, was that even in a panel with a single main circuit
breaker, there will be live wires even with the main turned off, similar to
that of a split buss panel. The only difference is that the upper buss
always remains live in the split buss panel, even with all the mains turned
off.

wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:57:21 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:40:41 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:20:30 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:53:44 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

[snip]

Which reminds me of something I was curious about - I've seen in older
houses (predating grounded wiring) some duplex receps that have two
vertical slots, like a modern NEMA 5-15R without the ground pin, but
also a horizontal slot for *both* the hot and neutral side. Not knowing
the proper name/designation of these I can't find a pic, but hopefully
someone knows what I'm talking about. What was the purpose of the two
horizontal slots?

thanks

nate
I've seen those a lot in old houses, but have no idea what those are
for. Could this be the missing 2-15R on the NEMA charts? Possibly some
240V heating appliances would work on 120V (just not heat as much)?
2-15
It is not missing everywhere

http://www.quail.com/nema.cfm
I didn't say 2-15, I said 2-15R. That is missing from the table you
linked to. Only 2-15P is there.

If you have the plug, you get a pretty good idea what the receptacle
looks like.

But isn't that a 240VAC plug? what purpose would it serve to have it
fit in a 120V (well, at the time likely 110, and it was 220V plug)
receptacle?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:57:21 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:40:41 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:20:30 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:53:44 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

[snip]

Which reminds me of something I was curious about - I've seen in
older houses (predating grounded wiring) some duplex receps that have
two vertical slots, like a modern NEMA 5-15R without the ground pin,
but also a horizontal slot for *both* the hot and neutral side. Not
knowing the proper name/designation of these I can't find a pic, but
hopefully someone knows what I'm talking about. What was the purpose
of the two horizontal slots?

thanks

nate
I've seen those a lot in old houses, but have no idea what those are
for. Could this be the missing 2-15R on the NEMA charts? Possibly some
240V heating appliances would work on 120V (just not heat as much)?
2-15
It is not missing everywhere

http://www.quail.com/nema.cfm
I didn't say 2-15, I said 2-15R. That is missing from the table you
linked to. Only 2-15P is there.

If you have the plug, you get a pretty good idea what the receptacle
looks like.

But isn't that a 240VAC plug? what purpose would it serve to have it fit
in a 120V (well, at the time likely 110, and it was 220V plug) receptacle?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel


I find those receptacles listed in a 1925 Westinghouse catalog, which I
assume predates NEMA. Some are rated at 10 amps 250 volts, others are rated
10 amps 250 volts - 15 amps 125 volts, however the receptacles are
identical. I suppose, back in 1925 you needed to know how it was wired
before you plugged into it.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:23:30 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:57:21 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:40:41 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:20:30 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:53:44 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

[snip]

Which reminds me of something I was curious about - I've seen in older
houses (predating grounded wiring) some duplex receps that have two
vertical slots, like a modern NEMA 5-15R without the ground pin, but
also a horizontal slot for *both* the hot and neutral side. Not knowing
the proper name/designation of these I can't find a pic, but hopefully
someone knows what I'm talking about. What was the purpose of the two
horizontal slots?

thanks

nate

I've seen those a lot in old houses, but have no idea what those are
for. Could this be the missing 2-15R on the NEMA charts? Possibly some
240V heating appliances would work on 120V (just not heat as much)?

2-15
It is not missing everywhere

http://www.quail.com/nema.cfm

I didn't say 2-15, I said 2-15R. That is missing from the table you
linked to. Only 2-15P is there.

If you have the plug, you get a pretty good idea what the receptacle
looks like.

Do you admit it (2-15R receptacle) is missing from that chart?

If it looks like anything, shouldn't it be in the chart? All the other
plugs have matching receptacles. What happened to this one?

Anyway, would you ever want to plug a 2-15R into the receptacle Nate
was talking about?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:12:13 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

[snip]


But isn't that a 240VAC plug?

Yes it's a 240VAC plug, and the missing 2-15R would be a 240VAC
receptacle.

what purpose would it serve to have it
fit in a 120V (well, at the time likely 110, and it was 220V plug)
receptacle?

I don't know the purpose. I thought there may be some explanation for
the oddity in the NEMA charts, and it might fit.

nate
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:11:02 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

[snip]


I find those receptacles listed in a 1925 Westinghouse catalog, which I
assume predates NEMA. Some are rated at 10 amps 250 volts, others are rated
10 amps 250 volts - 15 amps 125 volts, however the receptacles are
identical. I suppose, back in 1925 you needed to know how it was wired
before you plugged into it.


That could explain no 2-15R on the charts. I wish there was a note
thee, so it doesn't look like an oversight.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:56:52 -0600, cjt
wrote:

[snip]


That's a quick way to burn down a house, as somebody actually proved not
long ago -- I think the news item was even discussed in this newsgroup.

Does it work on FPE panels?

I know a couple of people who had them, but those houses have already
burned down (or was that "burned up"?).

In ,
Metspitzer typed:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:08:23 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp
receptacles on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what
you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here
several years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main
panel. I think that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was
always hot.

Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of
course cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of
material instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed
original outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel,
and the only power left in the box is going TO those breakers.
Nothing, nada, on the power bars or anywhere else. I know for
sure; I always check for power presence either with a meter or the
ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

What is the ol' screwdriver test?

Position the wire ends so a clean screwdrive can be pressed against one wire
while moving the screwdriver over and past the other. If no sparks, solidly
connect the two wires for a quick moment. Got sparks? The power's NOT off!
Alternatively you can take just one wire and pass the screwdriver across
the metal box or ground wire; will tell you if you've got a hot neutral too.
I know some people who'll make a solid contact right away, figureing
they'll pop the breaker that way but that's bad advice. Fire possibility in
the walls, weakening of the breaker mechanism, etc.. The screwdriver test,
done correctly, results in neither of those.
Actually, it's also handy to prove or disprove that the 100V you're
seeing with a meter is a phantom voltage. Or not. g

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
cjt typed:
Metspitzer wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:08:23 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp
receptacles on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what
you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -

Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here
several years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main
panel. I think that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was
always hot. Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater
circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of
course cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort
of material instead of the brittle plastic of the
contractor-installed original outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.
What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel,
and the only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing,
nada, on the power bars or anywhere else. I know for
sure; I always check for power presence either with a meter or the
ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

What is the ol' screwdriver test?

That's a quick way to burn down a house, as somebody actually proved
not long ago -- I think the news item was even discussed in this
newsgroup.

That wasn't a screwdrive test; it was stupidity and ignorance. See my
previous post.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Harry L typed:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:56:52 -0600, cjt
wrote:

[snip]


That's a quick way to burn down a house, as somebody actually proved
not long ago -- I think the news item was even discussed in this
newsgroup.

Does it work on FPE panels?

I know a couple of people who had them, but those houses have already
burned down (or was that "burned up"?).

More ignorance; you don't even know what such a test is.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
RBM typed:
"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp
receptacles on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what
you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here
several years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main
panel. I think that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was
always hot. Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater
circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of
course cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of
material instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed
original outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel,
and the only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing,
nada, on the power bars or anywhere else. I know for
sure; I always check for power presence either with a meter or the
ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

Twayne
--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.



From what you've written, I can't tell what you've missed, didn't
miss, or what you're talking about.
My statement to the OP, was that even in a panel with a single main
circuit breaker, there will be live wires even with the main turned
off, similar to that of a split buss panel. The only difference is
that the upper buss always remains live in the split buss panel, even
with all the mains turned off.

Only this: In any panel I've ever been into, which doesn't measure in the
hundreds but is quite a few, and this included my own:

Main breakers kill power to the entire iinards of the box except for their
input side. The input side can only connect to the meter, which, unless
pulled, leaves the input sides powered.
Power only exists on the wires coming FROM the meter up TO the main
breakers. There will be NO power on either of the busses, either phase, or
anywhere else. With the Mains turned OFF, NOTHING is powered, no voltage
exists except as noted above, which is kinda a necessity.
What's so hard to understand about that? When you open the two phases
coming INTO the box, nothing else has a source of power. Same as pulling the
meter except there wouldn't even be power to the Main Breakers then.
Transformer feeds meter feeds Mains Breakers, feeds individual house
breakers that hang on the busses. It's that simple, no?

Twayne
--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
RBM typed:
"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
RBM typed:
"tim birr" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 5:06 am, "RBM" wrote:

There are a variety of grades of receptacles. What you should be
using is
a better than residential grade receptacle, not a higher amperage
rated one. In the US, it is incorrect to install 20 amp
receptacles on 15 amp circuits, which may or may not be what
you've done, as you didn't mention
the ampacity of the circuit.- Hide quoted text -



Have no idea about the amps stuff for the electric outlets , just
using what an electrician told me to use after I had him here
several years ago to swap out my "split buss" electrical main
panel. I think that was the term. It had no main shut-off and was
always hot. Made me nervous when I had to replace a faulty water heater
circuit
breaker before I had the panel upgraded. I wore rubber boots. Two
pairs of thick rubber gloves, stood on a board and said my prayers
when I did that circuit breaker swap out.

The new outlets he told me to use seem pretty quality -- and of
course cost $4.50 a pop. They seem to be more "rubberized" sort of
material instead of the brittle plastic of the contractor-installed
original outlets.

I originally asked the electrician how to remove the wires from the
"spring catches" without breaking apart the old outlet. He just
ignored my question and gave me an empty outlet package and told to
replace them with "this kind."



FYI, your old split buss panel didn't have "a" main breaker, it had
several main breakers including the one you changed. The main wires
in your new panel are still live regardless if the breaker being on
or off.

What? Did I miss something? Kill the two Main breakers in my panel,
and the only power left in the box is going TO those breakers. Nothing,
nada, on the power bars or anywhere else. I know for
sure; I always check for power presence either with a meter or the
ol' screwdriver test (but not inside the entrance box!).
Or was that just a bad attempt at sarcasm? g

Twayne
--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.



From what you've written, I can't tell what you've missed, didn't
miss, or what you're talking about.
My statement to the OP, was that even in a panel with a single main
circuit breaker, there will be live wires even with the main turned
off, similar to that of a split buss panel. The only difference is
that the upper buss always remains live in the split buss panel, even
with all the mains turned off.

Only this: In any panel I've ever been into, which doesn't measure in the
hundreds but is quite a few, and this included my own:

Main breakers kill power to the entire iinards of the box except for their
input side. The input side can only connect to the meter, which, unless
pulled, leaves the input sides powered.
Power only exists on the wires coming FROM the meter up TO the main
breakers. There will be NO power on either of the busses, either phase, or
anywhere else. With the Mains turned OFF, NOTHING is powered, no voltage
exists except as noted above, which is kinda a necessity.
What's so hard to understand about that? When you open the two phases
coming INTO the box, nothing else has a source of power. Same as pulling
the meter except there wouldn't even be power to the Main Breakers then.
Transformer feeds meter feeds Mains Breakers, feeds individual house
breakers that hang on the busses. It's that simple, no?

Twayne
--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

That was essentially the point I was making to the OP. There is always live
power in the panel, even with the main off, albeit only at the terminals to
the main breaker. This is not exactly true with a split buss panel however.
The main wires don't connect to a breaker, but instead, they connect to the
terminals feeding the main breaker buss, which generally holds up to six
double pole breakers. One of those breakers feeds the lower buss. This
entire upper buss is live regardless of the position of the main breakers
attached to it, making it a little more dangerous to work in live.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:

Position the wire ends so a clean screwdrive can be pressed against one wire
while moving the screwdriver over and past the other. If no sparks, solidly
connect the two wires for a quick moment. Got sparks? The power's NOT off!

What a moron. Ever hear of a test lamp?

Please, don't take electrical advice from Twayne. He's completely clueless.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:


That wasn't a screwdrive test; it was stupidity and ignorance. See my
previous post.

That's an *excellent* description of your posts: "stupidity and ignorance".