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#41
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really old phone lines
In article ,
wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC), ...snipped... Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer. You don't get anything at telco expense anymore. I also haven't seen an interior phone wired by a real telco installer repairman in years either. They are usually contractors who are basically clueless. Back before the US v ATT decision if you had 2 lines, they ran 2 cables or a 25 pair if you were in an office that might get a call director phone. BSP said you did not run 2 lines in one cable without using twisted pair. IF the telco installed a demarc box, that is true. However, at least in my area, a lot of homes were missed. If the owner of such a home calls for a line problem today, the telco is required to repair the line even if it is inside the home, at least up to the junction blocks installed by the phone company back in the ancient past. That is where you will find the funky repairs I was describing. The technicians who make these repairs may well be contractors for the telephone co, I don't know. The telco won't install a demarc box on such a home without a lot of persuasion. I guess their bean counters figure it is cheaper to just repair the wiring, than to repair the wiring AND install the box. Is that still true today about no demarc? Where are you located? I'm curious. I was under the impression if there wasn't a modern demarc box, or if there wasn't one, they were required to install one. The new demarcs also have the advantage of getting rid of the old 600V gas tubes in favor of better components for the first-level surge protection. What bothers me about that is that even if there is no demarc box, the demarcation point is still considered to be the wall where the wiring enters from outside and from that point on it's the customer's responsibility. From my experience, knowledge the demarcation point can never go inside a building's walls without special waivers etc. for factories, etc. where outside access would be dangerous or impossible for whatever reason. An example would be a prison but there are lots of others. And they require 24/7 access to the demarcs. Strange Cheers, |
#42
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really old phone lines
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote: [snip] More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair, blue/white for a third line. Hmm, please cite your source? I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm wondering if you aren't mixing up different RJ families of connectors or something or whether something has changed. At least from CFR data on the 'net, nothing has changed so it would have had to have happened within the last say two to three years at the most. But there are of course, multi-line phone jacks and cabling required to cable them up. But you can't plug a "normal" telephone into them; they're made for special equipment. Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets, PBXs and what not. I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK. TIA, Twayne I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use yellow/black) obsolete? |
#43
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really old phone lines
On Mon 25 Aug 2008 10:54:00a, Mark Lloyd told us...
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne" wrote: [snip] More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair, blue/white for a third line. I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use yellow/black) obsolete? Not if you still have those type of phones. Many people still do. You can still buy small key systems; quite a few places make them. I know Mitel Inc. manufactures them for their North American market. |
#44
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really old phone lines
Ralph Mowery wrote:
"wendylee815" wrote in message ... ------------------------------------- we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,, how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three colored wires? Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires and forget the yellow. Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them. While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. This voltage probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful. EEK! Wrong voltage! The nominal DC voltage on a phone line (on hook) is 48 volts DC. The (off hook) voltage can be anywhere between 6 and 12 volts DC. It's the (off hook) loop current in milliamperes that important. 15-36 ma is what I typically see. The US standard ring voltage is 90 volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party line and the ringers will be of the type that are filtered to ring at different AC frequencies. The 48 volts can tingle but the 90 volts will definitely bite you. Don't strip a live phone line with your teeth because that's the exact moment that one of those damn telemarketers will decide to call. If you're looking for good info on phone systems and a source of parts, try http://www.sandman.com/ I've purchased phones and parts from the company for years. Oh, the green (tip) and red (ring) wires are the only ones you need for a standard single line telephone as was previously mentioned. I'll bet you don't know what an "octothorp" is. It's a part of every pushbutton phone. *snicker* [8~{} Uncle Monster Heck, it's just the column 3 row 4 key (#)! |
#45
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really old phone lines
TWayne wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT, (wendylee815) wrote: ------------------------------------- we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,, how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three colored wires? More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. Wrong. It is quite common. Most recent time I ran across it was in this very house, where the kid's bedrooms were wired with yellow and black to the center conductors. Pre-cellphone era, Mama Bell heavily sold getting a second line for the kids. Was also quite common with roommates sharing a house (like at college) and wanting private lines to talk to their sweeties, and to make sure there was no question about who pays LD charges. (Back in school, I used to do a lot of moonlight phone wiring for young ladies. Nothing illegal, mind you, just putting outlets where they wanted them.) I didn't mean it was illegal; I SAID, the TELCO will not wire a residential RJ-11 that way. Read! |
#46
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really old phone lines
On Aug 25, 10:54*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: When the tel companies were deregulated, years ago. My Dad bought a little book on phone wiring. I remember it saying 48 volts DC when the phone is not in use "on hook" and about 5 volts DC when the phone is in use "off hook".. 90 VAC ring sounds correct. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "Ralph Mowery" wrote in message m... Phones normally use just two wires. *Hook up the red and green wires and forget the yellow. Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them. While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. *This voltage probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful. Those voltage numbers are tyoical and correct. Most telephone sytems apply 48 volts DC to the line while waiting for a call to be made. When the phone is 'off hook' (in use) a small portion of that 48 is cross the phone, to activate the microphone in the handset etc. There are a few systems (not common in North America or the UK) that used 24 volts. (Worked in the industry 1952 to 1992). As mentioned ringing is AC (Alternating current) typically at around 20 hertz (cycles per second) compared to ouir regular electric supply which is 60 hertz (In North America, but often 50 hertz elswhere!), at around 90 volts. That can give a bit of a bite but not likely harm you. Assuming we are talking North American telephone systems; since it isn't clear where the OP is located? Yes; use the red and green wires to hook up the phone. If the added phone does not ring (and you want it to) try hooking say the yellow from the phone itself (not the yellow wire from the wall) to red or the green and get somebody to call you. If that doesn't work you may have to make a jumper change inside the phone itself; depending on what model of the many thousands of phones that have been made! Also make sure any jacks into which the phones plug are in nice dry locations. Outside walls are not good places (in a cold climate anyway) and some when they get damp can cause problems which can hold up a telephone line and/or trip ringing before one answers. If wiring is deteriorated replace it; nothing worse for both you and the telco. of a faulty telephone line and if a problem is inside the house can be costly in terms of a telco billing for trouble shooting it. |
#47
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really old phone lines
a wrote:
Steve Barker DLT wrote: You only need 2. Pick two that are good and go with them. s Indeed! Others will say what colours to hook up, but in my experience - the colours are meaningless in low voltage wiring. a Colors don't matter if YOU are the only one to ever service the system. Understand that there are people who are supposed to be service techs who are lost when the wire colors don't match up. That's why there are color codes and standards to go by. It makes it easier for those who need a little hand holding. [8~{} Uncle Monster |
#48
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really old phone lines
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT, (wendylee815) wrote: ------------------------------------- we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,, how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three colored wires? My house (built about 1974) has 3 wires, red/green/yellow. It was probably just what wire the builder had. Unless you're on a party line, phones just need red and green (these connect to the middle 2 wires in the jack). [snip] Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time but a check of their site doesn't show it now. I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand 3 wire somewhere. [8~{} Uncle Monster |
#49
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote:
Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time but a check of their site doesn't show it now. I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand 3 wire somewhere. I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire. |
#50
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really old phone lines
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote: Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time but a check of their site doesn't show it now. I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand 3 wire somewhere. I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire. May have something to do w/ the old Western Electric thing??? In '78 the new house was wired by WE and the basement wasn't yet finished but was intended. The very kind installer left me an end spool of cable to use when I got the walls up. A number of years later there was a service call -- when I got home that evening, I noticed the remaining spool of wire had left w/ the telephone guy--still protective after all those years!!! -- |
#51
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really old phone lines
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote: Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time but a check of their site doesn't show it now. I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand 3 wire somewhere. I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire. Well, that's specific. [8~{} Uncle Monster |
#52
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really old phone lines
TWayne wrote:
TWayne wrote: On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT, (wendylee815) wrote: ------------------------------------- we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,, how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three colored wires? More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. Wrong. It is quite common. Most recent time I ran across it was in this very house, where the kid's bedrooms were wired with yellow and black to the center conductors. Pre-cellphone era, Mama Bell heavily sold getting a second line for the kids. Was also quite common with roommates sharing a house (like at college) and wanting private lines to talk to their sweeties, and to make sure there was no question about who pays LD charges. (Back in school, I used to do a lot of moonlight phone wiring for young ladies. Nothing illegal, mind you, just putting outlets where they wanted them.) I didn't mean it was illegal; I SAID, the TELCO will not wire a residential RJ-11 that way. Read! No, I meant I wasn't doing anything illegal, like helping the young ladies steal service. As to my place- Ma bell 1960's 4-color non-twisted prewire, ma bell fittings inside, and a ma bell demarc with the yellow and black neatly plugged into the second rj11 on the customer-accessible side, hooked up to the second pair on the 1978-vintage drop. Smells like telco to me. A lot of the houses where I ran across it WERE wired in the pre-modular era, with the old 4-pin jacks or hardwired plates, the lovely round ones. Most had been 'upgraded' to modular at some point. (But the phones still had build dates from the 50s and 60s on them, in many cases. I miss real phones....) -- aem sends... |
#53
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:14:23 -0500, dpb wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote: On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote: Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time but a check of their site doesn't show it now. I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand 3 wire somewhere. I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire. May have something to do w/ the old Western Electric thing??? In '78 the new house was wired by WE and the basement wasn't yet finished but was intended. The very kind installer left me an end spool of cable to use when I got the walls up. A number of years later there was a service call -- when I got home that evening, I noticed the remaining spool of wire had left w/ the telephone guy--still protective after all those years!!! I have had wire around when calling for service. I'd hide it (and tools too). -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
#55
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:36:47 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne" wrote: [snip] More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair, blue/white for a third line. Hmm, please cite your source? For one thing, it isn't A source, but multiple sources. No way would I be able to remember every little thing. However, I do remember the latest one. About 2 and a half years ago I bought some 6P6C modular plugs (called RJ12 IIRC) from Lowe's. The instructions on the package describe them being used for up to 3 lines. Sorry I couldn't help with that. I never even wanted that information (I was using the connectors for something else*), let alone felt a need to keep it around. I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm wondering if you aren't mixing up different RJ families of connectors or something or whether something has changed. At least from CFR data on the 'net, nothing has changed so it would have had to have happened within the last say two to three years at the most. But there are of course, multi-line phone jacks and cabling required to cable them up. But you can't plug a "normal" telephone into them; they're made for special equipment. I've never seen one for 3 lines, but 2-line adapters seem commonly available here. I'm looking at one now. It has a 6P4C male with 3 female connectors, wired as follows: first jack (marked L1): 1 - 2- 3 - wired to 3 4 - wired to 4 5 - 6 - second jack (marked L2): 1 - 2- 3 - wired to 5 4 - wired to 2 5 - 6 - third jack (marked L1+L2): 1 - 2 - wired to 2 3 - wired to 3 4 - wired to 4 5 - wired to 5 6 - For some reason the second jack has the connections reversed. Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets, That's wrong, considering what I found in Lowe's (see above). IIRC that's all they sell. PBXs and what not. I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK. Pure blue? What sort of impure blue did you see? TIA, Twayne I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use yellow/black) obsolete? * - holiday light control, which I've posted about elsewhere and isn't really on topic here. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
#56
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really old phone lines
Mark Lloyd wrote:
.... I have had wire around when calling for service. I'd hide it (and tools too). If I'd have thought of it, I would have, too...still ticked off about that one... -- |
#57
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:26:52 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote: [snip] For one thing, it isn't A source, but multiple sources. No way would I be able to remember every little thing. [snip] I haven't found anything with those particular instructions (which were real ones)., but have found 3 items all of which say "for 1, 2, or 3 lines:" 6-conductor wire (red/green/yellow/black/blue/white): Philips UL/CMX round wire (there's no part number on this spool, maybe it came off with the customer annoyance device) 6P6C plugs: Ideal 85-345 6P6C wall plate with F-connector: Philips PH60627 -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
#58
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really old phone lines
In article ,
"TWayne" wrote: More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations. People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on the yellow and black wires. You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used. But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired system. You, kind sir, are mistaken. The yellow/black pair in the old "light olive green D-Station Wire" was most certainly - and commonly - used to provide a second line within the same cable (along side the red/green pair). This is true whether in a residential or commercial application. This practice was enumerated in the BSPs (Bell System Practice)s. A telco will - and does - work on such a two-line arrangement to this day. It's "legal", proper and [ta da!] works just fine. Up your reading comprehension skills. The OP read your words just fine. They were wrong. -- JR |
#59
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really old phone lines
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#60
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really old phone lines
In article ,
"TWayne" wrote: Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer. Which was a real blessing! Actually, the ownership of inside station wiring was transferred to the property owner shortly after Divestitu January 1, 1984. ....and it was NOT a blessing for at least 7-8 years. Shortly after it became legal for non-telco personnel to install inside wiring, every electrical contractor forced their employees to install wire that was made improperly (no twist). It was a mess: Non-standard (crosstalk) wire installed by those that were MAD because they felt forced to add it to their existing job - and they felt it was NOT their job. They were not privy to the politics of Divestiture. It used to be done by their own technicians "back when" but no more. The confidence with which you write belies your expertise; rather, your LACK of it. Inside (deregulated) wiring is still done today, EVERY day, by telco employees - not just contractors. You can even do your own digital wiring Just what *IS* "digital" wiring? you almost can't go wrong with digital except that there are so many different kinds. For those, excepting some DSL lo speed stuff, you really have to have CAT5 or the new CAT6 depending, or the lines just won't work well. I respectfully disagree. Particularly with DSL, data-rated cable (Cat 5e, etc) is NOT required. Think about it: The DSL signal is delivered to the end user over as much as 3-4 MILES of non-data-rated cable that was made before DSL was even thought of. It makes no sense to attach Cat 5e wire when its fed with (probably) "Cat 2-1/2" cable. Data-rated, twisted pair cable is required for high-speed networks - not the POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) system. And DSL - ALL "flavors" of it - are delivered over the POTS network. I ran new CAT 5 for all my wiring as soon as I discovered we were goint to get DSL Nice wire but unnecessary for DSL (phone line-to-the-modem). so I don't know how bad it gets with the old wiring. Not bad as long as the pair is good. In fact, DSL will operate, albeit more slowly, on a faulted pair on just ONE conductor (the other being OPEN.) Pretty bad I imagine, esp if it's old enough to not be twisted pair cable. Nope. You can deliver a reliable DSL signal to the modem using well insulated bailing wire. Of course, I would avoid running that hack near any motors, ballasts or other working pairs. I haven't seen it, but I understand you can even get CAT5 or 6 cable with a sheath for grounding That is otherwise known as shielded cable. It, too, is overkill on the POTS side of things - DSL included. -- JR |
#61
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really old phone lines
In article ,
"TWayne" wrote: The telco won't install a demarc box on such a home without a lot ofpersuasion. I guess their bean counters figure it is cheaper to just repair the wiring, than to repair the wiring AND install the box. There sure is a lot of half and misinformation here. Sheesh! Since 1984, ALL telephone services (read: ALL) have had a demarc - a DEMARCATION point. That was - and still is - usually the Minimum Point of Presence or Penetration (MPOP). Services installed or upgraded since about 1986 were done using a Standard Network Interface Device (SNI or NID). Is that still true today about no demarc? Remember the difference between a demarc and SNI/D. When a premise visit is made, and no SNI/D is present, one is SUPPOSED to be installed, at no extra charge to the customer, at that time. Of course, if the weather is crappy, the work load is heavy, the installer/repairdroid is in a bad mood or Jupiter is not in alignment with Mars, the retrofit may be ahem deferred. I was under the impression if there wasn't a modern demarc box, or if there wasn't one, they were required to install one. I am not sure that there is an OFFICIAL requiring entity (FCC, whatever?) but I believe it is official PRACTICE of all telcos. The new demarcs also have the advantage of getting rid of the old 600V gas tubes Old? ARGH!! Listen, Sonny-boy: I UPGRADED many a protector from the old carbon block protectors to the "new" gas tube variety. And the new stuff is NO better than the old carbon blocks. The "protector" (within the SNI/D if present) is not to provide "first-level" surge protection. Instead, it is to keep your house from burning down in the event of a near-direct lightning strike. Even the modern stuff passes-through MOST transients. If it didn't, a phone company would have HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of service call in the hours after every thunder storm. No way. What bothers me about that is that even if there is no demarc box, the demarcation point is still considered to be the wall where the wiring enters from outside and from that point on it's the customer's responsibility. From my experience, knowledge the demarcation point can never go inside a building's walls without special waivers etc. for factories, etc. where outside access would be dangerous or impossible for whatever reason. An example would be a prison but there are lots of others. And they require 24/7 access to the demarcs. Again, please remember the DISTINCT difference between a "demarc" and a SNI/D. In a grandfathered situation (one with no SNI/D), the telco responsibility extends INTO the premise (residential, commercial and industrial) to - and including - the protector block. Most installations have the protection within a few feet of the service entrance. Those that extend great distances through the building BEFORE being protected are rare. In those cases, an upgrade would include installing the SNI/D at the entrance, thereby deregulating the rest of the formerly telco-owned cable that extends through the building to the former (divested) demarc. At that point, the protection is either removed or disabled in favor of that provided at the entrance and new SNI/D. -- JR |
#62
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really old phone lines
In article ,
"TWayne" wrote: A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair, blue/white for a third line. Hmm, please cite your source? Aw, he can cite ME. I did it for 30 years. I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm wondering if you aren't mixing up different RJ families of connectors or something or whether something has changed. RJ11 RJ14 RJ21X RJ31 RJ45 Yadda Yadda At least from CFR data on the 'net, nothing has changed so it would have had to have happened within the last say two to three years at the most. Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see. (Will Rogers. http://www.willrogers.org/) I read it on the net so it MUST be true. sigh Situation: 40-year-old home wired with four conductor "JK" wire. (red/green & yellow/black) Customer wants a second POTS line in his home office. The telco installer connects the new line to the yellow/black pair of the quad wire at the demarc/SNI/D. At the "far end", if the yellow/black pair is not already connected to the formerly-one-line block, the installer has two choices, either one will be dictated by the customer's need. If the customer has a two-line telephone and wishes both lines to be delivered from the wall outlet (jack) to the phone on a SINGLE base cord, it must be a two-line cord - four conductors. Wired thusly, the jack is configured as an RJ14. It's the SAME jack (four pins) but the outer, two pins have been activated with Line 2. If the customer wishes the new line to be a stand-alone line, the installer will ADD a jack/RJ11. Red/green will feed one and yellow/black the other. I did it so often I could do it in my sleep. Some unfriendly coworkers would argue that I occasionally did. sigh Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets, PBXs and what not. Where do you GET this info? Man... White/blue is the color of Pair 1 - yes - the FIRST pair, in any cable. Mere single-family homes since about the late sixties were wired with such cable. Such cable is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes. The white/blue pair is connected to the green/red lugs on a common block (jack/outlet). White/orange (line/pair 2) is connected to the black/yellow lugs on the same jack. I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK. Aw, we have pure blue here, too. ...in the sky. I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use yellow/black) obsolete? Mostly, yes. The fourth conductor, to make a second PAIR, was added by the Bell System many, MANY years ago to facilitate either dial light current, a spare pair in the event of failure of the first, or the need for a second line. Dial light transformers were introduced in the late 50s or early 60s to illuminate the lamps inside the (then) new Princessr telephone. The Trimliner phone followed shortly with an illuminated dial. When dial light became "line powered", it was no longer necessary for a dedicated transformer somewhere in the house - the ORIGINAL wall wart. There are probably hundreds of thousands of such transformers still in service today - virtually unused. -- JR |
#63
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really old phone lines
Ralph Mowery wrote:
US standard ring voltage is 90 volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party line and the ringers will be of the type that are filtered to ring at different AC frequencies. Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe such a thing ever existed. On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground for partyline use. A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I described above. Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated. A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings. The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to the TIP side of the pair. This way, the phones would ring for only TWO parties of the four. Then there's six and eight-party service. It's just more of the same with either three or four parties on one side of the pair and the others wired to the other side of the pair. Then they got into different ring patterns such as we call today Custom or Distinctive Ringing: [long]; [short]; [short short]; [short long short]; [long short long]; and so on. In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates. I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks. -- JR |
#64
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really old phone lines
In article ,
"TWayne" wrote: I didn't mean it was illegal; I SAID, the TELCO will not wire a residential RJ-11 that way. Read! They did, and still do. Sorry. -- JR |
#65
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really old phone lines
In article ,
AZ Nomad wrote: On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote: Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time but a check of their site doesn't show it now. I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand 3 wire somewhere. I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire. Probably intercom or thermostat wire. Given the source is Radio Shaft(sic), the former is likely. -- JR |
#66
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really old phone lines
In article ,
aemeijers wrote: I miss real phones....) Hehehehehe! I miss talking to those that REMEMBER "real" phones! Your second line on the yellow/black is right on. BTDT. -- JR |
#67
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really old phone lines
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote: They always used the center-pair for the first one. Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using the center pair. Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are shorted, for whatever THAT's worth. Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal modem IN port. -- JR |
#68
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really old phone lines
Jim Redelfs wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote: US standard ring voltage is 90 volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party line and the ringers will be of the type that are filtered to ring at different AC frequencies. Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe such a thing ever existed. On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground for partyline use. A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I described above. Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated. A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings. The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to the TIP side of the pair. This way, the phones would ring for only TWO parties of the four. Then there's six and eight-party service. It's just more of the same with either three or four parties on one side of the pair and the others wired to the other side of the pair. Then they got into different ring patterns such as we call today Custom or Distinctive Ringing: [long]; [short]; [short short]; [short long short]; [long short long]; and so on. In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates. I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks. Hi, In this day and age who is using party lines? and if so every party line users phone has different selective ring tone? So how many different phones do we need then? My working days I never heard such thing. This phone is for Joesa', this phone is Smiths, so on and on? |
#69
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really old phone lines
Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: They always used the center-pair for the first one. Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using the center pair. Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are shorted, for whatever THAT's worth. Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal modem IN port. Hmmm, You mean there are some dumbs who can see the difference between RJ11 and RJ45? |
#70
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:04:39 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne" wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne" wrote: On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT, (wendylee815) wrote: ------------------------------------- we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,, how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three colored wires? More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are. A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key systems, etc.. You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations. People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on the yellow and black wires. You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used. But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired system. Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga green wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie. You are still wrong. The telco uses yellow/black for a second line in residential installations. It would make no difference who does the inside wiring, as the telco would still be the ones to wire it THAT WAY where it enters the house. If you take apart any modern analog 2-line phone, you will discover that it is MANUFACTURED to expect the second line to be on the yellow/black pair. Gee, I wonder why? Please also not that when JK wire is diagramed, the wires are labeled: green =tip 1 red=ring 2 black= tip 2 yellow ring 2 Case CLOSED You're bound determined to justify it aren't you? What you showed is not a RJ-11 jack which is what would be used in the home. Um. I didn't describe an R-11 jack at all, dunderhead. We are talking about the WIRES. You also seem to think that the princess phones used the yellow/black pair for lighting. That's essentially incorrect in terms of this discussion, and you don/'t even know that much. The princess phone used the yellow and black wires IN THE PHONE forlighting power, but the wall connector was actually an adapter configured as a shunt to prevent those wires from connecting to the yello/black wiring in the wal, so it could still be used for that second phone line in the kids rooml. Those wires, IN THE PHONE were passed to a wall wart for power, and had ZERO to do with the telco wiring in the wall. If you plug any residential phone into a jack such as you described, it will not work from the yellow/green wires. It will work from the tip/ring pair at pins 3 & 4 ONLY. You also left out pins; there are 8 on the wiring you showed, which is shown incorrectly. Telephones do not come with some wired for pins 3 & 4 and others wired for other pins: In fact, very often the silver & gray telephone cables only consist of 2 actual conductors. Forget pins, pinhead. We are talking about house wiring for telephones, not termination. Only in the case of phone to wall cords that come packed with very cheap phones, will you see 2 wire cables. Not germane to the discussion at all. Google "red herring" for further information. If you were to try to use the yellow/black for tip & ring, you would have to terminate those wires in hte jack the phone connects to at the normal positions in the box for the red/gree pair. so the yellow wire would go where it says red and the black to where it says green. Clearly wrong. Yet that is EXACTLY what Telco's have done for decades to create a second line for the kids bedroom upstairs using the existing wiring. They don't homerun new wiring through a hosue for that, as it would be almost as stupid as you. If a telco wires in a 2-line system, they will not use 6-conductor standard phone cable but will use 8 conductor instead, and 8 pin RJ jacks vs the 6 pin RJ11 jacks. The specs dictate that so that, where the wires are no longer twisted within the jacket of the cable, a distance can be maintained between them to keep line to line crosstalk from occurring. I detest misinformation and especially when it comes from some moron who guesses at what the rules and regs say and want to justify their own existance by giving incorrect information. Then why do you keep posting it? |
#71
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really old phone lines
In article _x3tk.43458$hx.13021@pd7urf3no,
Tony Hwang wrote: In this day and age who is using party lines? Very few, I'm sure. I suspect that most remaining multi-party lines in service belong to independent telcos and, even then, the stations are probably far away from the Central Office (farm lines, etc). if so every party line users phone has different selective ring tone? Not during the remaining years of my career. In fact, in "my" exchange (local call but just outside Omaha, Nebraska), there were only a handful of 2FRs and they were eliminated a few years before I retired. The distinctive ringing I described was used mostly (exclusively?) in manual (non-dial) exchanges. It was the Operator, manually pushing the ringback key on her switchboard, that made the patterned ring. Keep in mind this is some VERY old history. I am not sure that any automatic (but non-ESS) Central Office was capable of custom ringing. By then, however, most partyline arrangements had been reduced to TWO parties - and even they were "bridged" in the Central Office for convenience. So how many different phones do we need then? Just one: The Western Electric 500 (for example) ringer could be wired for Tip service or Ring service. In a properly wired situation, given two-party service, neither party would hear ringing if the call was for their partymate. Not so with 4FR, 6FR and 8FR. It was the distinctive ring pattern on one side of the pair that informed the parties as for whom the call was intended. My working days I never heard such thing. This phone is for Joesa', this phone is Smiths, so on and on? That is correct. In later days, as cable infrastructure caught up with and even exceeded the demand, 4FR, 6FR and 8FR services were regraded to two-party service and were bridged in the Central Office. Diehard, remaining two-party subscribers were asked occasionally to regrade to private service. Some did, others hung on to the cheaper service. Here's where the devious "fun" began... As two-party service faded, there were many 2FR-class subscribers bridged ALONE - they had NO partymate. Their partymate had either regraded to private service or had simply disconnected their service. Those that hung on to their 2FR service did so, in part, because they "saw" (heard) NO reason to switch: They hadn't had to share their line with anyone in YEARS. After canvassing the remaining 2FR subscribers in an exchange, the telco would REASSIGN a partymate to the remaining, formerly bridged alone subscribers. Having to share a line again, most of these diehard 2FR subscribers would finally regrade to a private line. "Measured Service" would provide them with the same, lower price as their former partyline service but on a private line. -- JR |
#72
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really old phone lines
In article pB3tk.121173$nD.54050@pd7urf1no,
Tony Hwang wrote: Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal modem IN port. You mean there are some dumbs who [can't] see the difference between RJ11 and RJ45? Oh, yeah. :\ For whatever reason, the customer unplugged the phone cord from the computer's internal modem IN port. Then, probably fumbling around in back where it's dark and without a good, solid view, they inserted the plug into the ethernet port. An RJ11 plug fits nicely into the 8-pin (usually ethernet) RJ45 jack. Doing so places a short across the center pins of the phone cord and, thusly, across the pair, effectively "killing" the phone line. Simply unplugging the phone cord from the ethernet port/jack removed the short and restored the customer's dialtone. -- JR |
#73
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:08:45 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote: New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat 5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being 2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing. The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for party line selective ringing. The Princess phone was introduced in the late 1950's. So 4 wire JK has been around at least 50 years now. I personally know of several houses that have telco installed wiring from the 1940's that has 4 wire JK. In 4 wire (two pair) systems, the wires are named as ring and tip ONE and ring and tip TWO. If that's what you happen to have and you are on a party line, then, sure, use the yellow wire for selective ringing. That is NOT however it's official designation ever since the advent of 2-pair wiring - OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO. Meanwhile, I answered the OP's question correctly, and corrected some misinformation promulgated by others. See ya. No, you didn't. Really? So telling them that the only 2 wires they need to hook up their phone are the red and green ones was incorrect? You are beyond stupid. |
#74
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:21:19 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC), (Larry W) wrote: Maybe that should read "a telco _should_..." I have seen telco technicians do all kinds of things in residential wiring, including using black/yellow pairs, even green/black or red/yellow, or most any other permutation, if it helps them avoid stringing a new wire at telephone co. expense. I've seen them use wire nuts or twisted wires covered with electrical tape to make their connections. Of course, when it is at the consumer's expense, then they insist on doing everything up to standards. Please don't generalize what is probably best practice to what is actually being done the field. Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer. Which was a real blessing! They will still do the wiring though, if you want them to. And you're right, these days they have a cadre of "approved" contractors do the wiring. But it's not cheap. It used to be done by their own technicians "back when" but no more. You can even do your own digital wiring these days of course and it's much easier and a lot clearer what to do now; you almost can't go wrong with digital except that there are so many different kinds. For those, excepting some DSL lo speed stuff, you really have to have CAT5 or the new CAT6 depending, or the lines just won't work well. Bwhaahahahahahahahahahahaha! They need to come up with a new word for "ignornace" to cover you. "ignorance" just doesn't cover it. |
#76
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:52:57 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote: [snip] In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates. I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks. I believe there were 8 people on the party line my parents were on (and grandparents on that line too). We never heard rings for someone else. I don't know exactly how it was wired, except there were 2 wires entering the house. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
#77
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:03:24 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: They always used the center-pair for the first one. Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using the center pair. Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are shorted, for whatever THAT's worth. Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal modem IN port. I checker the loose ethernet cards I had around. 3 of them (all 100Mbps) and the pins shorted. the other 2 (10Mbps) did not. Maybe it's a speed indicator. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:16:22 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote: [snip] When a premise visit is made, and no SNI/D is present, one is SUPPOSED to be installed, at no extra charge to the customer, at that time. SUPPOSED to. They (Verizon) didn't when I got a second line in 1999. [snip] BTW, the installer also claimed I had poison ivy. I didn't. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
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really old phone lines
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:38:06 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article , "TWayne" wrote: A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair, blue/white for a third line. Hmm, please cite your source? Aw, he can cite ME. I did it for 30 years. Thanks for providing confirmation. I was wondering why there were so many 2-line adapters and other things for that "nonexistent" wiring scheme. [snip] Dial light transformers were introduced in the late 50s or early 60s to illuminate the lamps inside the (then) new Princessr telephone. The Trimliner phone followed shortly with an illuminated dial. When dial light became "line powered", it was no longer necessary for a dedicated transformer somewhere in the house - the ORIGINAL wall wart. Those can not be lit all the time, but only when the phone is "on hook" since there is very little power available before activating the telco's off-hook detection. There are probably hundreds of thousands of such transformers still in service today - virtually unused. I never had one of those phones, but when I moved into my first apartment (an old one) someone had left one of those wall-warts, still connected to the yellow/black wires to the phone jack. I still have the thing. It's beige (dirty white) in color, made by Western Electric, and has screw terminals marked "SEC: 6-8V 1.75VA". -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." |
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really old phone lines
Jim Redelfs wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote: US standard ring voltage is 90 volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party line and the ringers will be of the type that are filtered to ring at different AC frequencies. Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe such a thing ever existed. On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground for partyline use. A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I described above. Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated. A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings. The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to the TIP side of the pair. I looked this one up in an electrical engineering reference ca. 1968. In addition to what you wrote above there was tip-to-ground with positive and negative ringing and similar ring-to-ground positive and negative ringing. That gives 4 party full selective ringing. The text refers to frequency selective ringing. What I remember is the ringers were mechanically or electrically resonant at different frequencies. I have no idea how common either of these schemes were. They require different ringers (frequency selective) or added cold cathode tubes (+/- ringing). -------------------------------- Thanks for all the great phone info (this thread and all the others). Tidbits like construction of quad cable to eliminate crosstalk are priceless. -- bud-- |
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