In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC),
...snipped...
Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer. You
don't get anything at telco expense anymore. I also haven't seen an
interior phone wired by a real telco installer repairman in years
either. They are usually contractors who are basically clueless.
Back before the US v ATT decision if you had 2 lines, they ran 2
cables or a 25 pair if you were in an office that might get a call
director phone. BSP said you did not run 2 lines in one cable without
using twisted pair.


IF the telco installed a demarc box, that is true. However, at least
in my area, a lot of homes were missed. If the owner of such a home
calls for a line problem today, the telco is required to repair the
line even if it is inside the home, at least up to the junction
blocks installed
by the phone company back in the ancient past. That is where you will
find the funky repairs I was describing. The technicians who make
these repairs may well be contractors for the telephone co, I don't
know.
The telco won't install a demarc box on such a home without a lot of
persuasion. I guess their bean counters figure it is cheaper to just
repair the wiring, than to repair the wiring AND install the box.

Is that still true today about no demarc? Where are you located? I'm
curious. I was under the impression if there wasn't a modern demarc
box, or if there wasn't one, they were required to install one. The new
demarcs also have the advantage of getting rid of the old 600V gas tubes
in favor of better components for the first-level surge protection.
What bothers me about that is that even if there is no demarc box,
the demarcation point is still considered to be the wall where the
wiring enters from outside and from that point on it's the customer's
responsibility. From my experience, knowledge the demarcation point can
never go inside a building's walls without special waivers etc. for
factories, etc. where outside access would be dangerous or impossible
for whatever reason. An example would be a prison but there are lots of
others. And they require 24/7 access to the demarcs.

Strange

Cheers,

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

[snip]

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks)
say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair,
blue/white for a third line.

Hmm, please cite your source? I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm
wondering if you aren't mixing up different RJ families of connectors or
something or whether something has changed. At least from CFR data on
the 'net, nothing has changed so it would have had to have happened
within the last say two to three years at the most. But there are of
course, multi-line phone jacks and cabling required to cable them up.
But you can't plug a "normal" telephone into them; they're made for
special equipment.
Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector
combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores
that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets, PBXs and what
not. I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK.

TIA,

Twayne


I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use
yellow/black) obsolete?

On Mon 25 Aug 2008 10:54:00a, Mark Lloyd told us...

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

[snip]

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even
though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for
jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a
third pair, blue/white for a third line.

I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use
yellow/black) obsolete?

Not if you still have those type of phones. Many people still do.

You can still buy small key systems; quite a few places make them. I
know Mitel Inc. manufactures them for their North American market.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"wendylee815" wrote in
message ...

-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?


Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires
and forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on
them. While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line.
This voltage probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.


EEK! Wrong voltage! The nominal DC voltage
on a phone line (on hook) is 48 volts DC.
The (off hook) voltage can be anywhere
between 6 and 12 volts DC. It's the (off
hook) loop current in milliamperes that
important. 15-36 ma is what I typically
see. The US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies. The 48 volts can tingle
but the 90 volts will definitely bite you.
Don't strip a live phone line with your
teeth because that's the exact moment that
one of those damn telemarketers will decide
to call. If you're looking for good info
on phone systems and a source of parts, try
http://www.sandman.com/ I've purchased
phones and parts from the company for years.
Oh, the green (tip) and red (ring) wires
are the only ones you need for a standard
single line telephone as was previously
mentioned.

I'll bet you don't know what an "octothorp"
is. It's a part of every pushbutton phone.
*snicker*

[8~{} Uncle Monster

Heck, it's just the column 3 row 4 key (#)!

TWayne wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?


More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


Wrong. It is quite common. Most recent time I ran across it was in
this very house, where the kid's bedrooms were wired with yellow and
black to the center conductors. Pre-cellphone era, Mama Bell heavily
sold getting a second line for the kids. Was also quite common with
roommates sharing a house (like at college) and wanting private lines
to talk to their sweeties, and to make sure there was no question
about who pays LD charges. (Back in school, I used to do a lot of
moonlight phone wiring for young ladies. Nothing illegal, mind you,
just putting outlets where they wanted them.)

I didn't mean it was illegal; I SAID, the TELCO will not wire a
residential RJ-11 that way. Read!

On Aug 25, 10:54*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
When the tel companies were deregulated, years ago. My Dad bought a little
book on phone wiring. I remember it saying 48 volts DC when the phone is not
in use "on hook" and about 5 volts DC when the phone is in use "off hook"..
90 VAC ring sounds correct.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message

m...

Phones normally use just two wires. *Hook up the red and green wires and
forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them.
While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. *This voltage
probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.

Those voltage numbers are tyoical and correct. Most telephone sytems
apply 48 volts DC to the line while waiting for a call to be made.
When the phone is 'off hook' (in use) a small portion of that 48 is
cross the phone, to activate the microphone in the handset etc. There
are a few systems (not common in North America or the UK) that used 24
volts. (Worked in the industry 1952 to 1992).

As mentioned ringing is AC (Alternating current) typically at around
20 hertz (cycles per second) compared to ouir regular electric supply
which is 60 hertz (In North America, but often 50 hertz elswhere!), at
around 90 volts. That can give a bit of a bite but not likely harm
you.

Assuming we are talking North American telephone systems; since it
isn't clear where the OP is located?

Yes; use the red and green wires to hook up the phone. If the added
phone does not ring (and you want it to) try hooking say the yellow
from the phone itself (not the yellow wire from the wall) to red or
the green and get somebody to call you. If that doesn't work you may
have to make a jumper change inside the phone itself; depending on
what model of the many thousands of phones that have been made!

Also make sure any jacks into which the phones plug are in nice dry
locations. Outside walls are not good places (in a cold climate
anyway) and some when they get damp can cause problems which can hold
up a telephone line and/or trip ringing before one answers. If wiring
is deteriorated replace it; nothing worse for both you and the telco.
of a faulty telephone line and if a problem is inside the house can be
costly in terms of a telco billing for trouble shooting it.

a wrote:
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
You only need 2. Pick two that are good and go with them.

s


Indeed! Others will say what colours to hook up, but in my experience -
the colours are meaningless in low voltage wiring.

a

Colors don't matter if YOU are the
only one to ever service the system.
Understand that there are people who
are supposed to be service techs who
are lost when the wire colors don't
match up. That's why there are color
codes and standards to go by. It makes
it easier for those who need a little
hand holding.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?

My house (built about 1974) has 3 wires, red/green/yellow. It was
probably just what wire the builder had. Unless you're on a party
line, phones just need red and green (these connect to the middle 2
wires in the jack).

[snip]

Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time
but a check of their site doesn't show it now.
I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand
3 wire somewhere.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote:
Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time
but a check of their site doesn't show it now.
I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand
3 wire somewhere.

I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote:
Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time
but a check of their site doesn't show it now.
I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand
3 wire somewhere.

I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire.

May have something to do w/ the old Western Electric thing???

In '78 the new house was wired by WE and the basement wasn't yet
finished but was intended. The very kind installer left me an end spool
of cable to use when I got the walls up. A number of years later there
was a service call -- when I got home that evening, I noticed the
remaining spool of wire had left w/ the telephone guy--still protective
after all those years!!!

--

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote:
Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time
but a check of their site doesn't show it now.
I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand
3 wire somewhere.

I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire.

Well, that's specific.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

TWayne wrote:
TWayne wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:

-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?


More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.
A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


Wrong. It is quite common. Most recent time I ran across it was in
this very house, where the kid's bedrooms were wired with yellow and
black to the center conductors. Pre-cellphone era, Mama Bell heavily
sold getting a second line for the kids. Was also quite common with
roommates sharing a house (like at college) and wanting private lines
to talk to their sweeties, and to make sure there was no question
about who pays LD charges. (Back in school, I used to do a lot of
moonlight phone wiring for young ladies. Nothing illegal, mind you,
just putting outlets where they wanted them.)

I didn't mean it was illegal; I SAID, the TELCO will not wire a
residential RJ-11 that way. Read!


No, I meant I wasn't doing anything illegal, like helping the young
ladies steal service.

As to my place- Ma bell 1960's 4-color non-twisted prewire, ma bell
fittings inside, and a ma bell demarc with the yellow and black neatly
plugged into the second rj11 on the customer-accessible side, hooked up
to the second pair on the 1978-vintage drop. Smells like telco to me. A
lot of the houses where I ran across it WERE wired in the pre-modular
era, with the old 4-pin jacks or hardwired plates, the lovely round
ones. Most had been 'upgraded' to modular at some point. (But the phones
still had build dates from the 50s and 60s on them, in many cases. I
miss real phones....)

--
aem sends...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:14:23 -0500, dpb wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster wrote:
Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time
but a check of their site doesn't show it now.
I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand
3 wire somewhere.

I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire.

May have something to do w/ the old Western Electric thing???

In '78 the new house was wired by WE and the basement wasn't yet
finished but was intended. The very kind installer left me an end spool
of cable to use when I got the walls up. A number of years later there
was a service call -- when I got home that evening, I noticed the
remaining spool of wire had left w/ the telephone guy--still protective
after all those years!!!

I have had wire around when calling for service. I'd hide it (and
tools too).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:10:48 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote:

New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing.

The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the
Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for
party line selective ringing.

That's what I thought it was for.

Also, I remember one house built in 1969 that had 6 wire cable:

orange
orange stripe on white
green
green stripe on white
blue
blue stripe on white

The only wires connected were the 2 in use (I don't remember which 2
it was).

They always used the center-pair for the first one.

Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using the center
pair.

That way no matter
what happened with polarities, there would at least always be a
connection. Something I found in an old, POTS history book once.


These 3 pairs weren't in a row, so "center pair" here is meaningless.
It would mans something on a jack, but not this non-connected cable.

I never got to see the connections to the only jack installed when the
house was now. There were provisions for jacks in the bedrooms. Wire
was installed, but no jacks. I later added a couple of jacks, and used
an 8-ohm speaker to find the active pair.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:36:47 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

[snip]

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks)
say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair,
blue/white for a third line.

Hmm, please cite your source?

For one thing, it isn't A source, but multiple sources. No way would I
be able to remember every little thing.

However, I do remember the latest one. About 2 and a half years ago I
bought some 6P6C modular plugs (called RJ12 IIRC) from Lowe's. The
instructions on the package describe them being used for up to 3
lines.

Sorry I couldn't help with that. I never even wanted that information
(I was using the connectors for something else*), let alone felt a
need to keep it around.

I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm
wondering if you aren't mixing up different RJ families of connectors or
something or whether something has changed. At least from CFR data on
the 'net, nothing has changed so it would have had to have happened
within the last say two to three years at the most. But there are of
course, multi-line phone jacks and cabling required to cable them up.
But you can't plug a "normal" telephone into them; they're made for
special equipment.

I've never seen one for 3 lines, but 2-line adapters seem commonly
available here. I'm looking at one now. It has a 6P4C male with 3
female connectors, wired as follows:

first jack (marked L1):

1 -
2-
3 - wired to 3
4 - wired to 4
5 -
6 -

second jack (marked L2):

1 -
2-
3 - wired to 5
4 - wired to 2
5 -
6 -

third jack (marked L1+L2):

1 -
2 - wired to 2
3 - wired to 3
4 - wired to 4
5 - wired to 5
6 -

For some reason the second jack has the connections reversed.

Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector
combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores
that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets,

That's wrong, considering what I found in Lowe's (see above). IIRC
that's all they sell.

PBXs and what
not. I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK.


Pure blue? What sort of impure blue did you see?

TIA,

Twayne


I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use
yellow/black) obsolete?



* - holiday light control, which I've posted about elsewhere and isn't
really on topic here.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Mark Lloyd wrote:
....
I have had wire around when calling for service. I'd hide it (and
tools too).

If I'd have thought of it, I would have, too...still ticked off about
that one...

--

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:26:52 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

[snip]


For one thing, it isn't A source, but multiple sources. No way would I
be able to remember every little thing.

[snip]

I haven't found anything with those particular instructions (which
were real ones)., but have found 3 items all of which say "for 1, 2,
or 3 lines:"

6-conductor wire (red/green/yellow/black/blue/white): Philips UL/CMX
round wire (there's no part number on this spool, maybe it came off
with the customer annoyance device)

6P6C plugs: Ideal 85-345

6P6C wall plate with F-connector: Philips PH60627
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

In article ,
"TWayne" wrote:

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires.
The black and yellow wires would be used for a second line
if you had one. In a normal residential system, they are
not used, even though they may be hooked to terminals as
if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a
second line with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are
for lights and grounds in key systems, etc..

You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes
on the yellow and black wires.

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using
those wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires
could be used. But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever
again; all they would offer to do would be to rip it out and
replace it with properly wired system.

You, kind sir, are mistaken.

The yellow/black pair in the old "light olive green D-Station Wire" was
most certainly - and commonly - used to provide a second line within the
same cable (along side the red/green pair). This is true whether in a
residential or commercial application.

This practice was enumerated in the BSPs (Bell System Practice)s.

A telco will - and does - work on such a two-line arrangement to this
day. It's "legal", proper and [ta da!] works just fine.

Up your reading comprehension skills.

The OP read your words just fine. They were wrong.
--

JR

wrote:

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

In 1960's era houses they often used three conductor cable, and the
yellow wire was for lighted phone dials, via a transformer. Then they
went to four wire cable, with the red and green for the primary line,
and black and yellow for the secondary line. Often they'd install
multiple RJ11 jacks with only the inner pair used for each line, but
often they'd hook the black and yellow to the outer contacts, and the
red and green to the inner contacts.

You can often find two line phones that connect with a single cable,
pinned out that way.

In article ,
"TWayne" wrote:

Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer.

Which was a real blessing!

Actually, the ownership of inside station wiring was transferred to the
property owner shortly after Divestitu January 1, 1984.

....and it was NOT a blessing for at least 7-8 years.

Shortly after it became legal for non-telco personnel to install inside
wiring, every electrical contractor forced their employees to install
wire that was made improperly (no twist).

It was a mess: Non-standard (crosstalk) wire installed by those that
were MAD because they felt forced to add it to their existing job - and
they felt it was NOT their job. They were not privy to the politics of
Divestiture.

It used to be done by their own technicians "back when" but no more.

The confidence with which you write belies your expertise; rather, your
LACK of it.

Inside (deregulated) wiring is still done today, EVERY day, by telco
employees - not just contractors.

You can even do your own digital wiring

Just what *IS* "digital" wiring?

you almost can't go wrong with digital except that there are so
many different kinds. For those, excepting some DSL lo speed
stuff, you really have to have CAT5 or the new CAT6 depending,
or the lines just won't work well.

I respectfully disagree.

Particularly with DSL, data-rated cable (Cat 5e, etc) is NOT required.

Think about it: The DSL signal is delivered to the end user over as
much as 3-4 MILES of non-data-rated cable that was made before DSL was
even thought of. It makes no sense to attach Cat 5e wire when its fed
with (probably) "Cat 2-1/2" cable.

Data-rated, twisted pair cable is required for high-speed networks - not
the POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) system. And DSL - ALL "flavors"
of it - are delivered over the POTS network.

I ran new CAT 5 for all my wiring as soon as I discovered we were
goint to get DSL

Nice wire but unnecessary for DSL (phone line-to-the-modem).

so I don't know how bad it gets with the old wiring.

Not bad as long as the pair is good. In fact, DSL will operate, albeit
more slowly, on a faulted pair on just ONE conductor (the other being
OPEN.)

Pretty bad I imagine, esp if it's old enough to not be
twisted pair cable.

Nope. You can deliver a reliable DSL signal to the modem using well
insulated bailing wire. Of course, I would avoid running that hack near
any motors, ballasts or other working pairs.

I haven't seen it, but I understand you can even get CAT5 or 6 cable
with a sheath for grounding

That is otherwise known as shielded cable. It, too, is overkill on the
POTS side of things - DSL included.
--

JR

In article ,
"TWayne" wrote:

The telco won't install a demarc box on such a home without a
lot ofpersuasion. I guess their bean counters figure it is cheaper
to just repair the wiring, than to repair the wiring AND install
the box.

There sure is a lot of half and misinformation here. Sheesh!

Since 1984, ALL telephone services (read: ALL) have had a demarc - a
DEMARCATION point.

That was - and still is - usually the Minimum Point of Presence or
Penetration (MPOP).

Services installed or upgraded since about 1986 were done using a
Standard Network Interface Device (SNI or NID).

Is that still true today about no demarc?

Remember the difference between a demarc and SNI/D.

When a premise visit is made, and no SNI/D is present, one is SUPPOSED
to be installed, at no extra charge to the customer, at that time.

Of course, if the weather is crappy, the work load is heavy, the
installer/repairdroid is in a bad mood or Jupiter is not in alignment
with Mars, the retrofit may be ahem deferred.

I was under the impression if there wasn't a modern demarc
box, or if there wasn't one, they were required to install one.

I am not sure that there is an OFFICIAL requiring entity (FCC,
whatever?) but I believe it is official PRACTICE of all telcos.

The new demarcs also have the advantage of getting rid of the
old 600V gas tubes

Old? ARGH!!

Listen, Sonny-boy: I UPGRADED many a protector from the old carbon
block protectors to the "new" gas tube variety. And the new stuff is NO
better than the old carbon blocks.

The "protector" (within the SNI/D if present) is not to provide
"first-level" surge protection. Instead, it is to keep your house from
burning down in the event of a near-direct lightning strike. Even the
modern stuff passes-through MOST transients. If it didn't, a phone
company would have HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of service call in the hours
after every thunder storm. No way.

What bothers me about that is that even if there is no demarc box,
the demarcation point is still considered to be the wall where the
wiring enters from outside and from that point on it's the customer's
responsibility. From my experience, knowledge the demarcation point can
never go inside a building's walls without special waivers etc. for
factories, etc. where outside access would be dangerous or impossible
for whatever reason. An example would be a prison but there are lots of
others. And they require 24/7 access to the demarcs.

Again, please remember the DISTINCT difference between a "demarc" and a
SNI/D.

In a grandfathered situation (one with no SNI/D), the telco
responsibility extends INTO the premise (residential, commercial and
industrial) to - and including - the protector block.

Most installations have the protection within a few feet of the service
entrance. Those that extend great distances through the building BEFORE
being protected are rare. In those cases, an upgrade would include
installing the SNI/D at the entrance, thereby deregulating the rest of
the formerly telco-owned cable that extends through the building to the
former (divested) demarc. At that point, the protection is either
removed or disabled in favor of that provided at the entrance and new
SNI/D.
--

JR

In article ,
"TWayne" wrote:

A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for
jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have
a third pair, blue/white for a third line.

Hmm, please cite your source?

Aw, he can cite ME. I did it for 30 years.

I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm wondering if you aren't
mixing up different RJ families of connectors or
something or whether something has changed.

RJ11
RJ14
RJ21X
RJ31
RJ45
Yadda
Yadda

At least from CFR data on the 'net, nothing has changed so it
would have had to have happened within the last say two to
three years at the most.

Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see.
(Will Rogers. http://www.willrogers.org/)

I read it on the net so it MUST be true. sigh

Situation:

40-year-old home wired with four conductor "JK" wire. (red/green &
yellow/black)

Customer wants a second POTS line in his home office.

The telco installer connects the new line to the yellow/black pair of
the quad wire at the demarc/SNI/D.

At the "far end", if the yellow/black pair is not already connected to
the formerly-one-line block, the installer has two choices, either one
will be dictated by the customer's need.

If the customer has a two-line telephone and wishes both lines to be
delivered from the wall outlet (jack) to the phone on a SINGLE base
cord, it must be a two-line cord - four conductors.

Wired thusly, the jack is configured as an RJ14. It's the SAME jack
(four pins) but the outer, two pins have been activated with Line 2.

If the customer wishes the new line to be a stand-alone line, the
installer will ADD a jack/RJ11. Red/green will feed one and
yellow/black the other.

I did it so often I could do it in my sleep. Some unfriendly coworkers
would argue that I occasionally did. sigh

Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector
combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores
that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets, PBXs and what
not.

Where do you GET this info? Man...

White/blue is the color of Pair 1 - yes - the FIRST pair, in any cable.
Mere single-family homes since about the late sixties were wired with
such cable. Such cable is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes.

The white/blue pair is connected to the green/red lugs on a common block
(jack/outlet). White/orange (line/pair 2) is connected to the
black/yellow lugs on the same jack.

I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK.

Aw, we have pure blue here, too. ...in the sky.

I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights
(that use yellow/black) obsolete?

Mostly, yes.

The fourth conductor, to make a second PAIR, was added by the Bell
System many, MANY years ago to facilitate either dial light current, a
spare pair in the event of failure of the first, or the need for a
second line.

Dial light transformers were introduced in the late 50s or early 60s to
illuminate the lamps inside the (then) new Princessr telephone. The
Trimliner phone followed shortly with an illuminated dial.

When dial light became "line powered", it was no longer necessary for a
dedicated transformer somewhere in the house - the ORIGINAL wall wart.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of such transformers still in
service today - virtually unused.
--

JR

Ralph Mowery wrote:

US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies.

Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe
such a thing ever existed.

On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the
other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was
connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side
to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for
DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground
for partyline use.

A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for
ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I
described above.

Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated.

A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side
was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings.

The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to
the TIP side of the pair.

This way, the phones would ring for only TWO parties of the four.

Then there's six and eight-party service. It's just more of the same
with either three or four parties on one side of the pair and the others
wired to the other side of the pair.

Then they got into different ring patterns such as we call today Custom
or Distinctive Ringing: [long]; [short]; [short short]; [short long
short]; [long short long]; and so on.

In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a
single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates.

I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks.
--

JR

In article ,
"TWayne" wrote:

I didn't mean it was illegal; I SAID, the TELCO will not wire a
residential RJ-11 that way. Read!

They did, and still do. Sorry.
--

JR

In article ,
AZ Nomad wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:47 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:
Radio Shack sold 3 wire phone cable at one time
but a check of their site doesn't show it now.
I think I actually have a roll of the RS brand
3 wire somewhere.

I don't recall them ever calling it phone wire.

Probably intercom or thermostat wire. Given the source is Radio
Shaft(sic), the former is likely.
--

JR

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I miss real phones....)

Hehehehehe! I miss talking to those that REMEMBER "real" phones!

Your second line on the yellow/black is right on. BTDT.
--

JR

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

They always used the center-pair for the first one.

Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using
the center pair.

Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are
shorted, for whatever THAT's worth.

Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard
short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in
the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal
modem IN port.
--

JR

Jim Redelfs wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:

US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies.

Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe
such a thing ever existed.

On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the
other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was
connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side
to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for
DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground
for partyline use.

A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for
ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I
described above.

Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated.

A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side
was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings.

The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to
the TIP side of the pair.

This way, the phones would ring for only TWO parties of the four.

Then there's six and eight-party service. It's just more of the same
with either three or four parties on one side of the pair and the others
wired to the other side of the pair.

Then they got into different ring patterns such as we call today Custom
or Distinctive Ringing: [long]; [short]; [short short]; [short long
short]; [long short long]; and so on.

In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a
single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates.

I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks.
Hi,
In this day and age who is using party lines? and if so every party line
users phone has different selective ring tone? So how many different
phones do we need then? My working days I never heard such thing. This
phone is for Joesa', this phone is Smiths, so on and on?

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

They always used the center-pair for the first one.

Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using
the center pair.

Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are
shorted, for whatever THAT's worth.

Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard
short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in
the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal
modem IN port.
Hmmm,
You mean there are some dumbs who can see the difference between RJ11
and RJ45?

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:04:39 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the
jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three
wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even
though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on
the yellow and black wires.

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be
used. But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all
they would offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with
properly wired system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga
green wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.


You are still wrong. The telco uses yellow/black for a second line in
residential installations. It would make no difference who does the
inside wiring, as the telco would still be the ones to wire it THAT
WAY where it enters the house. If you take apart any modern analog
2-line phone, you will discover that it is MANUFACTURED to expect the
second line to be on the yellow/black pair. Gee, I wonder why?

Please also not that when JK wire is diagramed, the wires are labeled:

green =tip 1
red=ring 2
black= tip 2
yellow ring 2

Case CLOSED

You're bound determined to justify it aren't you? What you showed is
not a RJ-11 jack which is what would be used in the home.

Um. I didn't describe an R-11 jack at all, dunderhead. We are talking
about the WIRES. You also seem to think that the princess phones used
the yellow/black pair for lighting. That's essentially incorrect in
terms of this discussion, and you don/'t even know that much. The
princess phone used the yellow and black wires IN THE PHONE
forlighting power, but the wall connector was actually an adapter
configured as a shunt to prevent those wires from connecting to the
yello/black wiring in the wal, so it could still be used for that
second phone line in the kids rooml. Those wires, IN THE PHONE were
passed to a wall wart for power, and had ZERO to do with the telco
wiring in the wall.


If you plug
any residential phone into a jack such as you described, it will not
work from the yellow/green wires. It will work from the tip/ring pair
at pins 3 & 4 ONLY. You also left out pins; there are 8 on the wiring
you showed, which is shown incorrectly. Telephones do not come with
some wired for pins 3 & 4 and others wired for other pins: In fact,
very often the silver & gray telephone cables only consist of 2 actual
conductors.

Forget pins, pinhead. We are talking about house wiring for
telephones, not termination.

Only in the case of phone to wall cords that come packed with very
cheap phones, will you see 2 wire cables. Not germane to the
discussion at all. Google "red herring" for further information.


If you were to try to use the yellow/black for tip & ring, you would
have to terminate those wires in hte jack the phone connects to at the
normal positions in the box for the red/gree pair. so the yellow wire
would go where it says red and the black to where it says green.
Clearly wrong.

Yet that is EXACTLY what Telco's have done for decades to create a
second line for the kids bedroom upstairs using the existing wiring.
They don't homerun new wiring through a hosue for that, as it would be
almost as stupid as you.


If a telco wires in a 2-line system, they will not use 6-conductor
standard phone cable but will use 8 conductor instead, and 8 pin RJ
jacks vs the 6 pin RJ11 jacks. The specs dictate that so that, where
the wires are no longer twisted within the jacket of the cable, a
distance can be maintained between them to keep line to line crosstalk
from occurring.

I detest misinformation and especially when it comes from some moron who
guesses at what the rules and regs say and want to justify their own
existance by giving incorrect information.

Then why do you keep posting it?

In article _x3tk.43458$hx.13021@pd7urf3no,
Tony Hwang wrote:

In this day and age who is using party lines?

Very few, I'm sure.

I suspect that most remaining multi-party lines in service belong to
independent telcos and, even then, the stations are probably far away
from the Central Office (farm lines, etc).

if so every party line users phone has different selective ring tone?

Not during the remaining years of my career. In fact, in "my" exchange
(local call but just outside Omaha, Nebraska), there were only a handful
of 2FRs and they were eliminated a few years before I retired.

The distinctive ringing I described was used mostly (exclusively?) in
manual (non-dial) exchanges. It was the Operator, manually pushing the
ringback key on her switchboard, that made the patterned ring.

Keep in mind this is some VERY old history. I am not sure that any
automatic (but non-ESS) Central Office was capable of custom ringing.
By then, however, most partyline arrangements had been reduced to TWO
parties - and even they were "bridged" in the Central Office for
convenience.

So how many different phones do we need then?

Just one: The Western Electric 500 (for example) ringer could be wired
for Tip service or Ring service.

In a properly wired situation, given two-party service, neither party
would hear ringing if the call was for their partymate. Not so with
4FR, 6FR and 8FR. It was the distinctive ring pattern on one side of
the pair that informed the parties as for whom the call was intended.

My working days I never heard such thing. This
phone is for Joesa', this phone is Smiths, so on and on?

That is correct.

In later days, as cable infrastructure caught up with and even exceeded
the demand, 4FR, 6FR and 8FR services were regraded to two-party service
and were bridged in the Central Office.

Diehard, remaining two-party subscribers were asked occasionally to
regrade to private service. Some did, others hung on to the cheaper
service. Here's where the devious "fun" began...

As two-party service faded, there were many 2FR-class subscribers
bridged ALONE - they had NO partymate. Their partymate had either
regraded to private service or had simply disconnected their service.

Those that hung on to their 2FR service did so, in part, because they
"saw" (heard) NO reason to switch: They hadn't had to share their line
with anyone in YEARS.

After canvassing the remaining 2FR subscribers in an exchange, the telco
would REASSIGN a partymate to the remaining, formerly bridged alone
subscribers.

Having to share a line again, most of these diehard 2FR subscribers
would finally regrade to a private line. "Measured Service" would
provide them with the same, lower price as their former partyline
service but on a private line.
--

JR

In article pB3tk.121173$nD.54050@pd7urf1no,
Tony Hwang wrote:

Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would
clear a hard short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug
from the ethernet port in the back of the computer and reconnect
it into the nearby, internal modem IN port.

You mean there are some dumbs who [can't] see the difference
between RJ11 and RJ45?

Oh, yeah. :\

For whatever reason, the customer unplugged the phone cord from the
computer's internal modem IN port. Then, probably fumbling around in
back where it's dark and without a good, solid view, they inserted the
plug into the ethernet port.

An RJ11 plug fits nicely into the 8-pin (usually ethernet) RJ45 jack.
Doing so places a short across the center pins of the phone cord and,
thusly, across the pair, effectively "killing" the phone line. Simply
unplugging the phone cord from the ethernet port/jack removed the short
and restored the customer's dialtone.
--

JR

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:08:45 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote:

New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing.

The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the
Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for
party line selective ringing.

The Princess phone was introduced in the late 1950's. So 4 wire JK has
been around at least 50 years now. I personally know of several houses
that have telco installed wiring from the 1940's that has 4 wire JK.
In 4 wire (two pair) systems, the wires are named as ring and tip ONE
and ring and tip TWO. If that's what you happen to have and you are on
a party line, then, sure, use the yellow wire for selective ringing.
That is NOT however it's official designation ever since the advent of
2-pair wiring - OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO.

Meanwhile, I answered the OP's question correctly, and corrected some
misinformation promulgated by others.

See ya.

No, you didn't.


Really? So telling them that the only 2 wires they need to hook up
their phone are the red and green ones was incorrect? You are beyond
stupid.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:21:19 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

Maybe that should read "a telco _should_..." I have seen telco
technicians do all kinds of things in residential wiring, including
using black/yellow pairs, even green/black or red/yellow, or most
any other permutation,
if it helps them avoid stringing a new wire at telephone co. expense.
I've seen them use wire nuts or twisted wires covered with electrical
tape to make their connections. Of course, when it is at the
consumer's expense, then they insist on doing everything up to
standards. Please don't generalize what is probably best practice to
what is actually being
done the field.



Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer.

Which was a real blessing! They will still do the wiring though, if you
want them to. And you're right, these days they have a cadre of
"approved" contractors do the wiring. But it's not cheap.
It used to be done by their own technicians "back when" but no more.
You can even do your own digital wiring these days of course and it's
much easier and a lot clearer what to do now; you almost can't go wrong
with digital except that there are so many different kinds. For those,
excepting some DSL lo speed stuff, you really have to have CAT5 or the
new CAT6 depending, or the lines just won't work well.

Bwhaahahahahahahahahahahaha!


They need to come up with a new word for "ignornace" to cover you.
"ignorance" just doesn't cover it.

In article ,
wrote:

I have 2 lines here and the few old sections of the original wiring
from the 60s had terrible crosstalk when you used both lines at the
same time. That really became obvious when you had a modem on one of
the lines.
I ended up rewiring the whole cludge with twisted pair to stop it

No doubt.

It's pretty simple: If there is crosstalk, the cable is made wrong.

Western Electric's old, light-olive gray D-Station wire (quad wire)
would NOT crosstalk even though it had very little twist. The red and
green conductors were across from - not NEXT to - each other. Likewise
for the yellow and black conductors. They were stacked like this if
viewed as a cross section:

red - black
green - yellow

This configuration prevented POTS crosstalk. The introduction of
Touchtoner and, later, dial-up modems, created some cross, but it was
usually only audible if the CUMULATIVE length of the quad was great.

Following divestiture, the big cable manufacturers (Rome, Cerro,
General, etc) saw a potentially huge, untapped market. They all jumped
on their looms and began cranking out UNTWISTED cable.

They never bothered to inquire of Western Electric or the incumbent
telcos as to how we got 300 people on a 400 pair cable yet they never
heard one another (crosstalk).

There was a period of about 7-8 years after Divestiture where virtually
all new construction was done with garbage wire.

This situation wasn't discovered by the homeowner until they added a
second line - right about the time that dial-up internet was coming on
strong. Suddenly, they reported HOOL (Hears Others On Line). It didn't
take long for us to figure out what was going on.

Heck, for the last twenty years of my career, I installed and maintained
the service to a true MANSION. It is a gated estate complete with
gargoyles and all the toys. During construction, the place was
independently wired with about two bucks-worth of crosstalk quad!!

Of course, this was insufficient from about day one as the owner (a VERY
successful businessman) peaked at about 5 lines and one FX (foreign
exchange) line. He also added a four-wire, high-speed data setup years
before there was DSL.

I installed two, multi-line SNIs on the outside of the huge home and we
"walked away" from the garbage wire inside. Independent phone
contractors dealt with the inside from that day on.

My favorite encounter there in later years was the independently
installed 6-pair station in the third-floor "cupola" room centered in
the middle of the roof - an island in the roof.

The "technician" bored a hole through a window sill, shoved out the
wire, climbed onto the roof and proceed with the installation. When
done, the 6-pair INSIDE cable lay across the sloped roof and ran down
the INSIDE of the downspout! At the bottom, the installer bored a hole
in the elbow near the SNIs, fished out the wire and connected it. I
never did learn how long that hack lasted. Not long, I'm sure.
--

JR

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:52:57 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

[snip]


In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a
single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates.

I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks.

I believe there were 8 people on the party line my parents were on
(and grandparents on that line too). We never heard rings for someone
else. I don't know exactly how it was wired, except there were 2 wires
entering the house.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:03:24 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

They always used the center-pair for the first one.

Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using
the center pair.

Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are
shorted, for whatever THAT's worth.

Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard
short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in
the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal
modem IN port.

I checker the loose ethernet cards I had around. 3 of them (all
100Mbps) and the pins shorted. the other 2 (10Mbps) did not. Maybe
it's a speed indicator.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:16:22 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

[snip]

When a premise visit is made, and no SNI/D is present, one is SUPPOSED
to be installed, at no extra charge to the customer, at that time.


SUPPOSED to. They (Verizon) didn't when I got a second line in 1999.

[snip]

BTW, the installer also claimed I had poison ivy. I didn't.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:38:06 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
"TWayne" wrote:

A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for
jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have
a third pair, blue/white for a third line.

Hmm, please cite your source?

Aw, he can cite ME. I did it for 30 years.


Thanks for providing confirmation. I was wondering why there were so
many 2-line adapters and other things for that "nonexistent" wiring
scheme.

[snip]


Dial light transformers were introduced in the late 50s or early 60s to
illuminate the lamps inside the (then) new Princessr telephone. The
Trimliner phone followed shortly with an illuminated dial.

When dial light became "line powered", it was no longer necessary for a
dedicated transformer somewhere in the house - the ORIGINAL wall wart.

Those can not be lit all the time, but only when the phone is "on
hook" since there is very little power available before activating the
telco's off-hook detection.


There are probably hundreds of thousands of such transformers still in
service today - virtually unused.

I never had one of those phones, but when I moved into my first
apartment (an old one) someone had left one of those wall-warts, still
connected to the yellow/black wires to the phone jack. I still have
the thing. It's beige (dirty white) in color, made by Western
Electric, and has screw terminals marked "SEC: 6-8V 1.75VA".
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Jim Redelfs wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:

US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies.

Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe
such a thing ever existed.

On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the
other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was
connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side
to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for
DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground
for partyline use.

A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for
ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I
described above.

Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated.

A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side
was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings.

The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to
the TIP side of the pair.

I looked this one up in an electrical engineering reference ca. 1968.

In addition to what you wrote above there was tip-to-ground with
positive and negative ringing and similar ring-to-ground positive and
negative ringing. That gives 4 party full selective ringing.

The text refers to frequency selective ringing. What I remember is the
ringers were mechanically or electrically resonant at different frequencies.

I have no idea how common either of these schemes were. They require
different ringers (frequency selective) or added cold cathode tubes (+/-
ringing).

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Thanks for all the great phone info (this thread and all the others).
Tidbits like construction of quad cable to eliminate crosstalk are
priceless.

--
bud--