-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


##-----------------------------------------------##
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Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 308527 messages and counting!
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"wendylee815" wrote in message
...


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires and
forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them.
While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. This voltage
probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.

On Aug 24, 2:48�pm, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:
"wendylee815" wrote in message

...



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?

Phones normally use just two wires. �Hook up the red and green wires and
forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them.
While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. �This voltage
probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.

the yellow wire was for fancy lighted phones, look around and
disconnect any old wall worts. I once found 5 of them plugged into a
basement, in a 100 year old home. stuck up in the cieling. i was
attempting to troubleshoot a DSL problem and got a tingle off the
yellow wire.

since there were no lighted phones they were just a energy waste and
perhaps a fire hazard.

Does your phone havve a NID outside? if it does unplug your home while
connecting new jack, so you dont get a nasty but not life threatening
shock while working on things, or at least take another phone off hook
so line is busy, ringing is the nasty shock

You only need 2. Pick two that are good and go with them.

s

"wendylee815" wrote in message
...


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


##-----------------------------------------------##
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Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 308527 messages and counting!
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On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT, wendylee815 wrote:


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?

You only need one pair, red/green.

wendylee815 wrote:

-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


##-----------------------------------------------##
Delivered via http://www.thestuccocompany.com/
Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 308527 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##


First thing to do is make sure the line is hot. Lots of abandoned wiring
in most old houses. Look in the basement, and try to see where the wire
comes out, and see how many colors it has there. 3 color phone wire is
rare, likely the black was clipped off on the kitchen end. Loosely
attach a phone to the kitchen end, red and green, and see if you have
dial tone. Old real (ma bell) phones often used the yellow as a ground
line (IIRC, red went to L1, green went to L2, and yellow to GND). Modern
disposable phones probably don't care. A pair of alligator clip leads,
or better yet a rj11 breakout connector (jack to several alligator
clips) comes in handy, if you don't have a butt sett, aka lineman phone.
Don't be surprised if the line is garbage, and you need to run new wire.
If you do, resist the temptation to disturb the old wire and install a
splice- run it all the way back to where the wires come together on the
terminal block. If you don't have an outside demarc box, call phone
company and hint you want them to install one. That sometimes will get
you a fresh drop from the pole, and gets you a nice fresh connector
block to play with.

You have my sympathy- the inside wiring in this place is garbage, and I
really need to redo it. But since I now have DSL on a separate pair, and
nobody ever calls me, it isn't likely to get tp the top of the list
anytime soon.

--
aem sends...

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
You only need 2. Pick two that are good and go with them.

s


Indeed! Others will say what colours to hook up, but in my experience -
the colours are meaningless in low voltage wiring.

a

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?

My house (built about 1974) has 3 wires, red/green/yellow. It was
probably just what wire the builder had. Unless you're on a party
line, phones just need red and green (these connect to the middle 2
wires in the jack).

[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"wendylee815" wrote in
message ...


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires and
forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them.
While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. This voltage
probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.

So you might want to unplug the line at the box outside before working on
the lines.
Tony

kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?

Rip out the old wires altogether and put in a new modular wire system, all
the way to where the phone company wire enters the house.

wendylee815 had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...es-327064-.htm
:

wow, i really like to thank you all for your help...who knew that i only
needed two of the wires?..i sure didnt, neither did my husband...lol
i was pleasantly surprised to find a reply to my question so
quickly..again, thank you all..but i do have one more question...you
mentioned that one of the wires are for lighted phones, my question is,
will my cordless phones have lights on the handset since they will be
charged on the regular 110 line?

-------------------------------------
Steve Barker DLT wrote:

You only need 2. Pick two that are good and go with them.

s

"wendylee815"
wrote in message
...


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the
jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three
colored wires?


##-----------------------------------------------##
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Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 308527 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##








##-----------------------------------------------##
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##-----------------------------------------------##

On Aug 25, 7:06�am,
(wendylee815) wrote:
wendylee815 had written this in response tohttp://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Re-really-old-phone-lines...
�:

wow, i really like to thank you all for your help...who knew that i only
needed two of the wires?..i sure didnt, neither did my husband...lol
i was pleasantly surprised to find a reply to my question so
quickly..again, thank you all..but i do have one more question...you
mentioned that one of the wires are for lighted phones, my question is,
will my cordless phones have lights on the handset since they will be
charged on the regular 110 line?



yeah cordless dont depend on phone line power for lights. just forget
about it. other than looking and removing any old wall transformers
connected to the phone line. they are unnecessary and can cause servce
troubles.

On Mon 25 Aug 2008 04:06:08a, wendylee815 told us...

wendylee815 had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...d-phone-lines-
327064-.htm
:

wow, i really like to thank you all for your help...who knew that i only
needed two of the wires?..i sure didnt, neither did my husband...lol
i was pleasantly surprised to find a reply to my question so
quickly..again, thank you all..but i do have one more question...you
mentioned that one of the wires are for lighted phones, my question is,
will my cordless phones have lights on the handset since they will be
charged on the regular 110 line?

The lights in your cordless phones will work fine, since their lights are
operated by the rechargeable batteries in the phones.

The additional wire used to power lights in phones originated when the Bell
System introduced sets like the Princess Phones which had no other source
of power.

--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Monday, 08(VIII)/25(XXV)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Labor Day
6dys 18hrs 54mins
*******************************************
Hey! This is a morgue, not an
amusement park!
*******************************************

When the tel companies were deregulated, years ago. My Dad bought a little
book on phone wiring. I remember it saying 48 volts DC when the phone is not
in use "on hook" and about 5 volts DC when the phone is in use "off hook".
90 VAC ring sounds correct.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...


Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires and
forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them.
While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. This voltage
probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.

-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?


##-----------------------------------------------##
Delivered via http://www.thestuccocompany.com/
Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 308527 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

Assuming it's a normal analog phone system that's no problem.
You only need the red and green wires: The other two aren't used.
When the phone isn't being used, there is arounc 48V DC between the
wires *red negative w/r to the green).
When the phone is picked up, that voltage drops to around 9 to 15 volts,
depending on a few things.
Ringing voltage is nominally 90 Vac riding on top of 48V DC so it's
capable of giving a person a really good kick if you'r handling the
wires when the phone rings! So, disconnect the wires from the point
where they enter the house; there should be a box there where they can
be disconnected.
If not, then leave a phone off hook while you do the work. That will
set off an alarm in the central office and the phone will loudly
complain for awhile, but it stops after about 30 seconds and then the
central office just removes power from your phone lines.
In this case, it might take up to a few minutes of the phone being
back on hook before the central office system gives you back your
voltage and dialtone. Normally it's a pretty quick change but some
older offices can take quite awhile to return your service.

Test the phone after installing hte box. Try dialing a number from
another phone too. If the new phone "tinkles" when the other phone
dials out, then just reverse the red and green wires and it'll stop the
tinkling. It's not unusual for the red & green wires to be reversed in
old installations like you have.

HTH

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with
a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key
systems, etc..

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with
a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key
systems, etc..


You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on the
yellow and black wires.

"wendylee815" wrote in message
...


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


If you have one line, then the voice comes in through green and red, tip and
ring respectively. The yellow and black are for other things - a second line
(if you have one) or for the dial light on fones like the Princess which is
powered by a transformer plugged into an outlet near the fone. Modern fones
don't need the yellow wire for the dial light, these take the power from the
green and red wires. You'll want to have another extention off the hook when
you work on wiring, because the ringing voltage is 90VAC at 20Hz. In other
words, when somebody tries to call you you'll get a painful shock.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on the
yellow and black wires.

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used.
But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would
offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired
system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga green
wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on the
yellow and black wires.

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used.
But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would
offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired
system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga green
wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.


You are still wrong. The telco uses yellow/black for a second line in
residential installations. It would make no difference who does the
inside wiring, as the telco would still be the ones to wire it THAT
WAY where it enters the house. If you take apart any modern analog
2-line phone, you will discover that it is MANUFACTURED to expect the
second line to be on the yellow/black pair. Gee, I wonder why?

Please also not that when JK wire is diagramed, the wires are labeled:

green =tip 1
red=ring 2
black= tip 2
yellow ring 2

Case CLOSED

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:08:08 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:02:57 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even though
they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on the
yellow and black wires.

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used.
But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would
offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired
system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga green
wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.


You are still wrong. The telco uses yellow/black for a second line in
residential installations. It would make no difference who does the
inside wiring, as the telco would still be the ones to wire it THAT
WAY where it enters the house. If you take apart any modern analog
2-line phone, you will discover that it is MANUFACTURED to expect the
second line to be on the yellow/black pair. Gee, I wonder why?

Please also not that when JK wire is diagramed, the wires are labeled:

green =tip 1
red=ring 2
black= tip 2
yellow ring 2

Case CLOSED


That is what an RJ14 jack is labeled but when you use the yellow/black
as the second line you get crosstalk. 2 line station wire will usually
be blue/blue-white, orange/orange-white twisted pair. That really
becomes apparent if you have a modem on one of those pairs. The
carrier will bleed over.

One more time. If a person calls the phone company and asks to change
the existing extension phone in the upstairs bedroom of their 1960's
raised ranch to a second line, the telco will come and use the
existing 2-pair wiring and use the "unused" yellow/black pair for the
second line. The assertion that telcos NEVER do this is pure
unadulterated BULL-OH-NEE.


New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing. There is no
blue/blue-white or orange/orange-white there. Does not exist. As I
corrected stated, they do not need the black and yellow wires at all
unless they want a second line. I told them they just need the
red/green pair for what they asked about.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

[snip]

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with
a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key
systems, etc..


A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks)
say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair,
blue/white for a third line.

I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use
yellow/black) obsolete?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

[snip]

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used.
But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would
offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired
system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga green
wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.


I have had a second line in here, but the telco put in completely
different wiring for it. No cables are shared.

BTW, I later found out they charge over $200 for a little wiring, I
could easily have done myself. It's still take new wire, since the old
wiring has just 3 wires.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Mon 25 Aug 2008 10:54:00a, Mark Lloyd told us...

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

[snip]

More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with
a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key
systems, etc..


A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks)
say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair,
blue/white for a third line.

I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use
yellow/black) obsolete?

Not if you still have those type of phones. Many people still do.

--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Monday, 08(VIII)/25(XXV)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Labor Day
6dys 12hrs 43mins
*******************************************
Hand me that crowbar... I must pry out
this bullet.
*******************************************

In article , TWayne wrote:
...snipped...
A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..
...snipped...
You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be used.
But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all they would
offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with properly wired
system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga green
wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.



Maybe that should read "a telco _should_..." I have seen telco technicians
do all kinds of things in residential wiring, including using black/yellow
pairs, even green/black or red/yellow, or most any other permutation,
if it helps them avoid stringing a new wire at telephone co. expense.
I've seen them use wire nuts or twisted wires covered with electrical
tape to make their connections. Of course, when it is at the consumer's
expense, then they insist on doing everything up to standards. Please don't
generalize what is probably best practice to what is actually being
done the field.




--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use
yellow/black) obsolete?
--

yes but some may still be in use.......

bell telephone here, installed second line for business using black
and yellow wires, sometime in late 70s early 80s.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"wendylee815" wrote in message
...

-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and
went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out
of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three
colored wires?


Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires and
forget the yellow.

Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them.
While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. This voltage
probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.


EEK! Wrong voltage! The nominal DC voltage
on a phone line (on hook) is 48 volts DC.
The (off hook) voltage can be anywhere
between 6 and 12 volts DC. It's the (off
hook) loop current in milliamperes that
important. 15-36 ma is what I typically
see. The US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies. The 48 volts can tingle
but the 90 volts will definitely bite you.
Don't strip a live phone line with your
teeth because that's the exact moment that
one of those damn telemarketers will decide
to call. If you're looking for good info
on phone systems and a source of parts, try
http://www.sandman.com/ I've purchased
phones and parts from the company for years.
Oh, the green (tip) and red (ring) wires
are the only ones you need for a standard
single line telephone as was previously
mentioned.

I'll bet you don't know what an "octothorp"
is. It's a part of every pushbutton phone.
*snicker*

[8~{} Uncle Monster

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote:

New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing.

The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the
Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for party
line selective ringing.

The Princess phone was introduced in the late 1950's. So 4 wire JK has
been around at least 50 years now. I personally know of several houses
that have telco installed wiring from the 1940's that has 4 wire JK.
In 4 wire (two pair) systems, the wires are named as ring and tip ONE
and ring and tip TWO. If that's what you happen to have and you are on
a party line, then, sure, use the yellow wire for selective ringing.
That is NOT however it's official designation ever since the advent of
2-pair wiring - OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO.

Meanwhile, I answered the OP's question correctly, and corrected some
misinformation promulgated by others.

See ya.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:43:41 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:

[snip]



EEK! Wrong voltage! The nominal DC voltage
on a phone line (on hook) is 48 volts DC.
The (off hook) voltage can be anywhere
between 6 and 12 volts DC. It's the (off
hook) loop current in milliamperes that
important. 15-36 ma is what I typically
see. The US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies. The 48 volts can tingle
but the 90 volts will definitely bite you.
Don't strip a live phone line with your
teeth because that's the exact moment that
one of those damn telemarketers will decide
to call. If you're looking for good info
on phone systems and a source of parts, try
http://www.sandman.com/ I've purchased
phones and parts from the company for years.
Oh, the green (tip) and red (ring) wires
are the only ones you need for a standard
single line telephone as was previously
mentioned.


Loop impedance is high (IIRC 400 ohms is normal). This causes the
voltage to drop considerably when a load is applied (same as in a very
old battery). The ring voltage is low impedance.

I'll bet you don't know what an "octothorp"
is. It's a part of every pushbutton phone.
*snicker*


I thought is was an "octothorpe". Another name is "nanogram", although
I don't see that much.

As to something else pushbutton-related, how about the "A" "B" "C" and
"D" keys?

[8~{} Uncle Monster
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote:

New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing.

The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the
Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for party
line selective ringing.

That's what I thought it was for.

Also, I remember one house built in 1969 that had 6 wire cable:

orange
orange stripe on white
green
green stripe on white
blue
blue stripe on white

The only wires connected were the 2 in use (I don't remember which 2
it was).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

TWayne wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:


-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack
and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires
coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?


More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The black
and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had one. In a
normal residential system, they are not used, even though they may be
hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line with
a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds in key
systems, etc..


Wrong. It is quite common. Most recent time I ran across it was in this
very house, where the kid's bedrooms were wired with yellow and black to
the center conductors. Pre-cellphone era, Mama Bell heavily sold getting
a second line for the kids. Was also quite common with roommates sharing
a house (like at college) and wanting private lines to talk to their
sweeties, and to make sure there was no question about who pays LD
charges. (Back in school, I used to do a lot of moonlight phone wiring
for young ladies. Nothing illegal, mind you, just putting outlets where
they wanted them.)

--
aem sends...

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:43:41 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:
(snip)


As to something else pushbutton-related, how about the "A" "B" "C" and
"D" keys?

Ask a hard one- that is the 4th row of buttons for an old AUTOVON phone.
The TT standard was written around a 16-key (4x4) array. Somewhere in my
collection, I have an old gray 2500 without the star and pound keys.
Back in the 50s and 60s, the dividing line between ATT, WE, Bellcore,
and Army Signal Corp, got rather fuzzy in spots. DoD was heavily
involved with the post WWII design of the long-lines buildout. They even
used to have a special area code assigned for the government emergency
comms- now it is just a front door to a virtual network, with a single
phone number assigned to it.

--
aem sends...

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:43:41 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:

[snip]


EEK! Wrong voltage! The nominal DC voltage
on a phone line (on hook) is 48 volts DC.
The (off hook) voltage can be anywhere
between 6 and 12 volts DC. It's the (off
hook) loop current in milliamperes that
important. 15-36 ma is what I typically
see. The US standard ring voltage is 90
volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party
line and the ringers will be of the type
that are filtered to ring at different
AC frequencies. The 48 volts can tingle
but the 90 volts will definitely bite you.
Don't strip a live phone line with your
teeth because that's the exact moment that
one of those damn telemarketers will decide
to call. If you're looking for good info
on phone systems and a source of parts, try
http://www.sandman.com/ I've purchased
phones and parts from the company for years.
Oh, the green (tip) and red (ring) wires
are the only ones you need for a standard
single line telephone as was previously
mentioned.


Loop impedance is high (IIRC 400 ohms is normal). This causes the
voltage to drop considerably when a load is applied (same as in a very
old battery). The ring voltage is low impedance.

I'll bet you don't know what an "octothorp"
is. It's a part of every pushbutton phone.
*snicker*


I thought is was an "octothorpe". Another name is "nanogram", although
I don't see that much.

octothorp / octothorpe / octathorp / octatherp

Also called a hash mark and various other things.
It has an interesting history.

As to something else pushbutton-related, how about the "A" "B" "C" and
"D" keys?

My understanding is that the letters were found
on military phones connected to the AUTOVON phone
systems that's no longer in use. I think phone
company networks use them for network control and
monitoring. I have some butt sets that have the
letter keys and some actual phones somewhere in
my collection. I was talking to someone today about
my great uncle who was a lifer in The US Army Signal
Corp. He joined when they were still using two tin
cans and a string and I'll bet he was familiar with
the AUTOVON system.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC),
...snipped...
Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer. You
don't get anything at telco expense anymore. I also haven't seen an
interior phone wired by a real telco installer repairman in years
either. They are usually contractors who are basically clueless.
Back before the US v ATT decision if you had 2 lines, they ran 2
cables or a 25 pair if you were in an office that might get a call
director phone. BSP said you did not run 2 lines in one cable without
using twisted pair.


IF the telco installed a demarc box, that is true. However, at least
in my area, a lot of homes were missed. If the owner of such a home calls
for a line problem today, the telco is required to repair the line even
if it is inside the home, at least up to the junction blocks installed
by the phone company back in the ancient past. That is where you will find
the funky repairs I was describing. The technicians who make these
repairs may well be contractors for the telephone co, I don't know.
The telco won't install a demarc box on such a home without a lot of
persuasion. I guess their bean counters figure it is cheaper to just
repair the wiring, than to repair the wiring AND install the box.




--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:51:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:45:15 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

IF the telco installed a demarc box, that is true. However, at least
in my area, a lot of homes were missed. If the owner of such a home calls
for a line problem today, the telco is required to repair the line even
if it is inside the home,

I don't know where you heard that but they can put that Dmark on the
first time you call them and walk away if their butt set works from
the Dmark. The next time you will pay a trip charge.
In real life I have not seen a house without a Dmark in almost 30
years. Maybe they are just more proactive in Florida

I don't have one (in east Texas), although a neighbor does.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:52 GMT,
(wendylee815) wrote:



-------------------------------------

we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the
kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the
jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three
wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,,
how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the
three colored wires?



More than likely, all you need are the green and red wires. The
black and yellow wires would be used for a second line if you had
one. In a normal residential system, they are not used, even
though they may be hooked to terminals as if they are.

A telco will NEVER use the yellow and black lines for a second line
with a normal RJ-11 installation. Those are for lights and grounds
in key systems, etc..


You are wrong. This is very common in residential installations.
People have a second line for the kids or whatever and it goes on
the yellow and black wires.

You can't read: READ what I said: "A telco will ... ". Using those
wires for a phone line can of course be done. ANY wires could be
used. But you'll never get a telco to work on them ever again; all
they would offer to do would be to rip it out and replace it with
properly wired system.
Up your reading comprehension skills. Hell, I could use 10 ga
green wires if I wanted to. But come back to earth Scottie.


You are still wrong. The telco uses yellow/black for a second line in
residential installations. It would make no difference who does the
inside wiring, as the telco would still be the ones to wire it THAT
WAY where it enters the house. If you take apart any modern analog
2-line phone, you will discover that it is MANUFACTURED to expect the
second line to be on the yellow/black pair. Gee, I wonder why?

Please also not that when JK wire is diagramed, the wires are labeled:

green =tip 1
red=ring 2
black= tip 2
yellow ring 2

Case CLOSED

You're bound determined to justify it aren't you? What you showed is
not a RJ-11 jack which is what would be used in the home. If you plug
any residential phone into a jack such as you described, it will not
work from the yellow/green wires. It will work from the tip/ring pair
at pins 3 & 4 ONLY. You also left out pins; there are 8 on the wiring
you showed, which is shown incorrectly. Telephones do not come with
some wired for pins 3 & 4 and others wired for other pins: In fact,
very often the silver & gray telephone cables only consist of 2 actual
conductors.

If you were to try to use the yellow/black for tip & ring, you would
have to terminate those wires in hte jack the phone connects to at the
normal positions in the box for the red/gree pair. so the yellow wire
would go where it says red and the black to where it says green.
Clearly wrong.

If a telco wires in a 2-line system, they will not use 6-conductor
standard phone cable but will use 8 conductor instead, and 8 pin RJ
jacks vs the 6 pin RJ11 jacks. The specs dictate that so that, where
the wires are no longer twisted within the jacket of the cable, a
distance can be maintained between them to keep line to line crosstalk
from occurring.

I detest misinformation and especially when it comes from some moron who
guesses at what the rules and regs say and want to justify their own
existance by giving incorrect information. Whether you looked up "tip"
and "ring" or just think they were handy buzz words, they are very real
and have distinct meanings within the installations. You CAN connect
another line to the black/yellow pair, but then you'll have some phones
that don't work and need rewiring at the box, and a very good chance of
crosstalk between the two lines, especially since I doubt you would know
how to keep non-twisted sections short and the rest of the things any
novice installer would know.
If youwant the nitty gritty it exists in the CFR, Title 47, Part 68.
Go educate yourself or quit giving out misinformation that can cause
other people problems.

NOW the case is closed because I've no more food for you to troll on;
you're on your own.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote:

New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing.

The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the
Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for
party line selective ringing.

The Princess phone was introduced in the late 1950's. So 4 wire JK has
been around at least 50 years now. I personally know of several houses
that have telco installed wiring from the 1940's that has 4 wire JK.
In 4 wire (two pair) systems, the wires are named as ring and tip ONE
and ring and tip TWO. If that's what you happen to have and you are on
a party line, then, sure, use the yellow wire for selective ringing.
That is NOT however it's official designation ever since the advent of
2-pair wiring - OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO.

Meanwhile, I answered the OP's question correctly, and corrected some
misinformation promulgated by others.

See ya.

No, you didn't.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:00:42 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:27:54 -0400, wrote:

New installations are no longer done with JK 2-pair They now use cat
5. The OP has described the wiring in their new OLD house as being
2-pair with one of the second pair clipped off or missing.

The old JK only had 3 wires. The 4th (black) wire showed up with the
Princess phone. As has been pointed out here, the yellow was for
party line selective ringing.

That's what I thought it was for.

Also, I remember one house built in 1969 that had 6 wire cable:

orange
orange stripe on white
green
green stripe on white
blue
blue stripe on white

The only wires connected were the 2 in use (I don't remember which 2
it was).

They always used the center-pair for the first one. That way no matter
what happened with polarities, there would at least always be a
connection. Something I found in an old, POTS history book once.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

Maybe that should read "a telco _should_..." I have seen telco
technicians do all kinds of things in residential wiring, including
using black/yellow pairs, even green/black or red/yellow, or most
any other permutation,
if it helps them avoid stringing a new wire at telephone co. expense.
I've seen them use wire nuts or twisted wires covered with electrical
tape to make their connections. Of course, when it is at the
consumer's expense, then they insist on doing everything up to
standards. Please don't generalize what is probably best practice to
what is actually being
done the field.



Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer.

Which was a real blessing! They will still do the wiring though, if you
want them to. And you're right, these days they have a cadre of
"approved" contractors do the wiring. But it's not cheap.
It used to be done by their own technicians "back when" but no more.
You can even do your own digital wiring these days of course and it's
much easier and a lot clearer what to do now; you almost can't go wrong
with digital except that there are so many different kinds. For those,
excepting some DSL lo speed stuff, you really have to have CAT5 or the
new CAT6 depending, or the lines just won't work well. I ran new CAT 5
for all my wiring as soon as I discovered we were goint to get DSL so I
don't know how bad it gets with the old wiring. Pretty bad I imagine,
esp if it's old enough to not be twisted pair cable.
I haven't seen it, but I understand you can even get CAT5 or 6 cable
with a sheath for grounding; I guess Faraday lives on!

Cheers,

Twayne


You
don't get anything at telco expense anymore. I also haven't seen an
interior phone wired by a real telco installer repairman in years
either. They are usually contractors who are basically clueless.
Back before the US v ATT decision if you had 2 lines, they ran 2
cables or a 25 pair if you were in an office that might get a call
director phone. BSP said you did not run 2 lines in one cable without
using twisted pair.