On Apr 9, 11:11*am, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-04-09, wrote:

note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

Actually, it doesn't say the savings are less, it says the efficiency
improvement is less. *Standby losses are basically independent of
usage. *The greater the usage, the smaller the fraction of total costs
attributable to standby losses.

So if you are trying to calculate a payback period, and if the
incremental efficiency of the tank and tankless are the same, then
usage doesn't matter. *All you need to do is figure out how much more
expensive the tankless is, and how your savings from standby losses
are.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I was going to point that out too. Sure, in percentage terms,
the more hot water you use, the less in percentage terms you will save
on your energy bill. That's because the big difference is the
standby loss, which is independent of the amount of water used.
However, in dollars saved in gas saved per year from standy losses,
it's still going to be the same amount of money saved, which is what
you need to look at.

Also, am I the only one that thinks it odd that if a tankless has a
pilot light it would negate the entire energy savings compared to a
regular water heater? The regular water heater has a pilot light too
and I would think the overall impact of a pilot light might be a
couple %.

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

Also, am I the only one that thinks it odd that if a tankless has a
pilot light it would negate the entire energy savings compared to a
regular water heater? The regular water heater has a pilot light
too and I would think the overall impact of a pilot light might be a
couple %.

The pilot light on a tank, though, heats the tank water, so it isn't
waste. While on a tankless, it is pretty much a waste. Anyway, it's
pretty moot, as pilot light tankless is fairly old technology, just
like non-modulating tankless.

Cheers, Wayne

On Apr 9, 2:30*pm, wrote:
On Apr 9, 11:11*am, Wayne Whitney wrote:





On 2008-04-09, wrote:

note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

Actually, it doesn't say the savings are less, it says the efficiency
improvement is less. *Standby losses are basically independent of
usage. *The greater the usage, the smaller the fraction of total costs
attributable to standby losses.

So if you are trying to calculate a payback period, and if the
incremental efficiency of the tank and tankless are the same, then
usage doesn't matter. *All you need to do is figure out how much more
expensive the tankless is, and how your savings from standby losses
are.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I was going to point that out too. * Sure, in percentage terms,
the more hot water you use, the less in percentage terms you will save
on your energy bill. * That's because the big difference is the
standby loss, which is independent of the amount of water used.
However, in dollars saved in gas saved per year from standy losses,
it's still going to be the same amount of money saved, which is what
you need to look at.

Also, am I the only one that thinks it odd that if a tankless has a
pilot light it would negate the entire energy savings compared to a
regular water heater? * The regular water heater has a pilot light too
and I would think the overall impact of a pilot light might be a
couple %.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My 5 yr old tankless is battery ignition- 2 d cells. A pilot light I
think is long gone. There were even 5 years ago Hydro generator
pilots, the water runs, turns a blade, it turns a generator. But even
tank that are pilotless cant get above 70 Energy Factor wheras
tankless start at 82. Energy factor is the cost. The best tank I have
seen is 70 EF so $0.30 is wasted, the cheapest Tankless is 82 EF so
only 18% is wasted, and Takagi goes to 94 EF, go figure, its all in
the math. Pilot lights are the wrong way to go.

On Apr 9, 2:30*pm, wrote:
On Apr 9, 11:11*am, Wayne Whitney wrote:





On 2008-04-09, wrote:

note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

Actually, it doesn't say the savings are less, it says the efficiency
improvement is less. *Standby losses are basically independent of
usage. *The greater the usage, the smaller the fraction of total costs
attributable to standby losses.

So if you are trying to calculate a payback period, and if the
incremental efficiency of the tank and tankless are the same, then
usage doesn't matter. *All you need to do is figure out how much more
expensive the tankless is, and how your savings from standby losses
are.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I was going to point that out too. * Sure, in percentage terms,
the more hot water you use, the less in percentage terms you will save
on your energy bill. * That's because the big difference is the
standby loss, which is independent of the amount of water used.
However, in dollars saved in gas saved per year from standy losses,
it's still going to be the same amount of money saved, which is what
you need to look at.

Also, am I the only one that thinks it odd that if a tankless has a
pilot light it would negate the entire energy savings compared to a
regular water heater? * The regular water heater has a pilot light too
and I would think the overall impact of a pilot light might be a
couple %.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am now at a tank location, my last summers gas bills are double and
more than at the tankless location, 9 vs 12$ a month. Same gas dryer,
same gas cooking. So Tankless saves me 13 or so a month at TODAYS gas
prices. Wait 5 years. my payback is 5 years and less and declining as
prices increase. Tankless-pilotless, work and outlast tank , which
looose 1-3 % efficency every year due to scale.

On Apr 9, 2:55*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 9, 2:30*pm, wrote:





On Apr 9, 11:11*am, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

Actually, it doesn't say the savings are less, it says the efficiency
improvement is less. *Standby losses are basically independent of
usage. *The greater the usage, the smaller the fraction of total costs
attributable to standby losses.

So if you are trying to calculate a payback period, and if the
incremental efficiency of the tank and tankless are the same, then
usage doesn't matter. *All you need to do is figure out how much more
expensive the tankless is, and how your savings from standby losses
are.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I was going to point that out too. * Sure, in percentage terms,
the more hot water you use, the less in percentage terms you will save
on your energy bill. * That's because the big difference is the
standby loss, which is independent of the amount of water used.
However, in dollars saved in gas saved per year from standy losses,
it's still going to be the same amount of money saved, which is what
you need to look at.

Also, am I the only one that thinks it odd that if a tankless has a
pilot light it would negate the entire energy savings compared to a
regular water heater? * The regular water heater has a pilot light too
and I would think the overall impact of a pilot light might be a
couple %.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am now at a tank location, my last summers gas bills are double and
more than at the tankless location, 9 vs 12$ a month. Same gas dryer,
same gas cooking. So Tankless saves me 13 or so a month at TODAYS gas
prices. Wait 5 years. my payback is 5 years and less and declining as
prices increase. Tankless-pilotless, work and outlast tank , which
looose 1-3 % efficency every year due to scale.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I should have stated 9 vs 22 -23 a month

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:02:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

Hi paul, I really dont see much of either heat gain winter or summer,
Im just arguing against misinformed oposition. I see a flue going up
the uninsulated part of the tank going outdoors. I guess im a little
****ed at negatives thrown at tankless by people that never owned one,
and post wrong information. I own one, I can see on my 9$ summer gas
bill, I see a short payback, and I cook all food on a gas stove and
have a gas dryer. Tank Energy Factor is what nobody wants to
aknowlegde. Energy Factor for Tanks are about 52-60, and it simply
means, in fact, if your tank is a 60 E.F., $0.40 of every dollar you
pay to heat water is wasted. Tankless EF ratings are near Total
efficencies, Tankless EF ratings are from 82-95 [95 for a condensing
Takagi] We have all these folks here who put down tankless with bogus,
stupid, bad, information. Granted tankless are not for all, but they
are designed to last 30 years since the coil is thick copper pipe,
they save money, they have drawbacks you must learn to live with, but
I like saving money and not paying utilitie companies. I did so well
with a 110 yr old house, lowering utilities from maybe 1500 a year to
550 that the gas company came out to see how was I stealing gas. I was
told by Nipsco my house is the most efficent they have seen. I heat
1800sq for no more than $105 at max -14f lows. Tankless can cost alot
more, but can cost the same, last longer, and save enough to pay you
back, very quickly. Quickly, and that is at todays Ng gas prices, with
oil over 100 a barrel, it`s going to rise real dam fast. Your payback
will be sooner with every Ng price increase, and last I read, new NG
field are not being opened from NIMBY bs, consumption is outpacing
production, that`s why LNG dockyards are being built, so we can IMPORT
gas on tankers, even though we have it in the ground. We have no
energy policy, we have no education. Even England mandates only
Condensing heating units, and England is an Exporter of energy. We are
an Importer. Dam I should run for President and give America an
Energy agenda.

Hi Mark,

I don't like misinformation either and I don't have a strong opinion
on this matter. I don't doubt the operational performance of natural
gas tankless units is superior to that of their electric counterparts
and that the efficiency gains are more impressive. I have no
first-hand experience with tankless gas, but I'm familiar with the
electric variant and that experience left me cold, literally! It may
very well have been undersized (I don't honestly know), but the water
never got what you would call "hot" even though the shower was
equipped with a low-flow head and I was the only user at the time.
Based on this admittedly limited experience, I would be hard pressed
to recommend an electric unit, unless it was a high capacity model and
that, in itself, opens up another can of worms.

If someone could tell me that a conventional gas water heater with an
EF of 0.60 would use X cubic metres (or therms) of gas per year and
that a state-of-the-art tankless version would use Y, it would help me
to better compare these two technologies.

Cheers,
Paul

"Glenn" wrote in message
...
Curious. It's just a damn 'hot' water heater. Why all the passion?

Because it's a paradigm shift and those always bring discomfort.

On Apr 9, 2:19*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
"ransley" wrote

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the
winter benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water
heater is located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Hi Mark,

The impact of standby loss with respect to added a/c demand is
generally very modest for three reasons:

*1) with the exception of some of the southern most states, heating
degree days exceed those of cooling throughout most of North America,
in some cases by a factor of ten or more (e.g., Minneapolis MN).
Pittsburgh PA, a mid-eastern seaboard city, has 5,968 HDD and 654 CDD.
Even in San Diego CA, heating demands exceed those of cooling, i.e.,
1,256 HDD versus 984 CDD;

*2) *generally speaking, water heaters are located inside conditioned
spaces in colder regions due to the risk of freeze damage whereas they
are typically placed in non-conditioned spaces (e.g., attached
garages) in warmer climates -- located outside the home's thermal
envelope, there would be no impact on cooling demand;

*3) for every kWh used, an air conditioner will remove three or more
kWh of heat. *A 10 SEER air conditioner will purge 2.93 kWh of heat
for every one kWh consumed and a 13 SEER air conditioner (the current
minimum standard) will eliminate 3.8 kWh of heat. *Thus, each kWh of
standby tank loss translates to 0.34 kWh of cooling demand at 10 SEER
and 0.26 kWh at 13 SEER.

Taken together, it's pretty clear the benefits in terms of heat gain
far outweigh any potential loss with respect to added cooling demand.

Cheers,
Paul

No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. Some others are in
garages. I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

On Apr 9, 4:28*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:02:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
Hi paul, I really dont see much of either heat gain winter or summer,
Im just arguing against misinformed oposition. *I see a flue going up
the uninsulated part of the tank going outdoors. I guess im a little
****ed at negatives thrown at tankless by people that never owned one,
and post wrong information. I own one, I can see on my 9$ summer gas
bill, I see a short payback, and I cook all food on a gas stove and
have a gas dryer. Tank Energy Factor is what nobody wants to
aknowlegde. Energy Factor for Tanks are about 52-60, and it simply
means, in fact, if your tank is a 60 E.F., $0.40 of every dollar you
pay to heat water is wasted. Tankless EF ratings are near Total
efficencies, Tankless EF ratings are from 82-95 [95 for a condensing
Takagi] We have all these folks here who put down tankless with bogus,
stupid, bad, information. *Granted tankless are not for all, but they
are designed to last 30 years since the coil is thick copper pipe,
they save money, they have drawbacks you must learn to live with, but
I like saving money and not paying utilitie companies. I did so well
with a 110 yr old house, lowering utilities from maybe 1500 a year to
550 that the gas company came out to see how was I stealing gas. I was
told by Nipsco my house is the most efficent they have seen. I heat
1800sq for no more than $105 at max -14f lows. Tankless can cost alot
more, but can cost the same, last longer, and save enough to pay you
back, very quickly. Quickly, and that is at todays Ng gas prices, with
oil over 100 a barrel, it`s going to rise real dam fast. Your payback
will be sooner with every Ng price increase, and last I read, new NG
field are not being opened from NIMBY bs, consumption is outpacing
production, that`s why LNG dockyards are being built, so we can IMPORT
gas on tankers, even though we have it in the ground. We have no
energy policy, we have no education. Even England mandates only
Condensing heating units, and England is an Exporter of energy. We are
an Importer. *Dam I should run for President and give America *an
Energy agenda.

Hi Mark,

I don't like misinformation either and I don't have a strong opinion
on this matter. *I don't doubt the operational performance of natural
gas tankless units is superior to that of their electric counterparts
and that the efficiency gains are more impressive. *I have no
first-hand experience with tankless gas, but I'm familiar with the
electric variant and that experience left me cold, literally! *

So your views are jaundiced. Taking experience from electric and
applying it to gas tankless is like comparing apples to oranges.



It may
very well have been undersized (I don't honestly know), but the water
never got what you would call "hot" even though the shower was
equipped with a low-flow head and I was the only user at the time.
Based on this admittedly limited experience, I would be hard pressed
to recommend an electric unit, unless it was a high capacity model and
that, in itself, opens up another can of worms.

And that has what to do with gas which has far higher output
capability?




If someone could tell me that a conventional gas water heater with an
EF of 0.60 would use X cubic metres (or therms) of gas per year and
that a state-of-the-art tankless version would use Y, it would help me
to better compare these two technologies.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The EF is a measure of how much hot water the unit produces per unit
of energy. It isn't that hard to calculate. If you know the EF of
your current unit, what your bills are and the EF of the other unit,
the math is straightforward.

On Apr 9, 5:59 pm, wrote:

No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. Some others are in
garages. I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces.

And even if it's in conditioned space, it most assuredly is not where
you want it nor when you want it.

R

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. Some others are in
garages. I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Cheers,
Paul

On Apr 9, 6:39�pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. � Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. � Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. �Some others are in
garages. � I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. � In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. �I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. �Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. � And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. � In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. �In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. �Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ahh tank vs tankless, while posters get their panties in a wad, they
could be getting a energy audit where they evaluate your insulation
and check for air leaks.

heating water standby losses are just one of many standby things in
your home eating energy.

how old and how efficent is your furnace? using LED or CF lights to
save power, are all your appliances energy star rated?

how about the SUV in your driveway? or do you drive a small fuel
efficent car?

theres a million ways to waste energy, hot water is just one.........

are all your hot water lines insulated?

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 9, 4:28*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:

Hi Mark,

I don't like misinformation either and I don't have a strong opinion
on this matter. *I don't doubt the operational performance of natural
gas tankless units is superior to that of their electric counterparts
and that the efficiency gains are more impressive. *I have no
first-hand experience with tankless gas, but I'm familiar with the
electric variant and that experience left me cold, literally! *

So your views are jaundiced. Taking experience from electric and
applying it to gas tankless is like comparing apples to oranges.

Let me say this again, but this time more slowly so perhaps you might
come to understand it. I said "I don't doubt the operational
performance of natural gas tankless units is superior to that of their
electric counterparts and that the efficiency gains are more
impressive." I also explicitly stated that "I have no first-hand
experience with tankless gas". I did not in any way knock gas
tankless; my criticism was in regards to *ELECTRIC* units, which
should have been obvious to even the most dim witted amongst us --
guess you proved me wrong.

It may
very well have been undersized (I don't honestly know), but the water
never got what you would call "hot" even though the shower was
equipped with a low-flow head and I was the only user at the time.
Based on this admittedly limited experience, I would be hard pressed
to recommend an electric unit, unless it was a high capacity model and
that, in itself, opens up another can of worms.

And that has what to do with gas which has far higher output
capability?

It has absolutely nothing to do with gas, just electric. Let me spell
it out for you again. *E-L-E-C-T-R-I-C*.

If someone could tell me that a conventional gas water heater with an
EF of 0.60 would use X cubic metres (or therms) of gas per year and
that a state-of-the-art tankless version would use Y, it would help me
to better compare these two technologies.

The EF is a measure of how much hot water the unit produces per unit
of energy. It isn't that hard to calculate. If you know the EF of
your current unit, what your bills are and the EF of the other unit,
the math is straightforward.

And if a homeowner uses natural gas for space heating, cooking,
clothes drying, etc., they can isolate the DHW component from their
bill how?

Cheers,
Paul

On Apr 9, 12:02*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"ransley" wrote

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the winter
benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water heater is
located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Actually I didnt mention that but I'll add I 'seem' to get a *small* benefit
there. *It isnt much but in the garage, which is cold in winter, a small
amount of heat is added by it. *Being in the garage, it's effect on the AC
of the house in summer is negligible.

Mine is nearing end of life cycle so I'm reading the discussion carefully
and looking at replacement units. *Newer ones are much better than my old
one.

I note several tank types around 400$ or less which would effectively
replace the existing unit with same style but more efficient, and lots of
tankless systems.

Running through the web page another posted, I seem to be the 'break even'
on gas price to run here with a slight edge to a tank type. *The only real
difference seems to be how long the units last? *That and a slight residual
heat generated to the garage which in winter for me, is a beneficial but
minor 'nice' towards the tank type.

New tankless may last 30-40yrs +. a copper pipe, finned is the
Exchanger, your answer is how long do your copper pipes last, 60
years ??

On Apr 9, 2:30*pm, wrote:
On Apr 9, 11:11*am, Wayne Whitney wrote:





On 2008-04-09, wrote:

note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

Actually, it doesn't say the savings are less, it says the efficiency
improvement is less. *Standby losses are basically independent of
usage. *The greater the usage, the smaller the fraction of total costs
attributable to standby losses.

So if you are trying to calculate a payback period, and if the
incremental efficiency of the tank and tankless are the same, then
usage doesn't matter. *All you need to do is figure out how much more
expensive the tankless is, and how your savings from standby losses
are.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I was going to point that out too. * Sure, in percentage terms,
the more hot water you use, the less in percentage terms you will save
on your energy bill. * That's because the big difference is the
standby loss, which is independent of the amount of water used.
However, in dollars saved in gas saved per year from standy losses,
it's still going to be the same amount of money saved, which is what
you need to look at.

Also, am I the only one that thinks it odd that if a tankless has a
pilot light it would negate the entire energy savings compared to a
regular water heater? * The regular water heater has a pilot light too
and I would think the overall impact of a pilot light might be a
couple %.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think all tankless are non pilot now. Mine was 5 years ago its 2 d
cell, its battery ignition, and hydro gen was offered then.

On Apr 9, 3:28*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:02:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
Hi paul, I really dont see much of either heat gain winter or summer,
Im just arguing against misinformed oposition. *I see a flue going up
the uninsulated part of the tank going outdoors. I guess im a little
****ed at negatives thrown at tankless by people that never owned one,
and post wrong information. I own one, I can see on my 9$ summer gas
bill, I see a short payback, and I cook all food on a gas stove and
have a gas dryer. Tank Energy Factor is what nobody wants to
aknowlegde. Energy Factor for Tanks are about 52-60, and it simply
means, in fact, if your tank is a 60 E.F., $0.40 of every dollar you
pay to heat water is wasted. Tankless EF ratings are near Total
efficencies, Tankless EF ratings are from 82-95 [95 for a condensing
Takagi] We have all these folks here who put down tankless with bogus,
stupid, bad, information. *Granted tankless are not for all, but they
are designed to last 30 years since the coil is thick copper pipe,
they save money, they have drawbacks you must learn to live with, but
I like saving money and not paying utilitie companies. I did so well
with a 110 yr old house, lowering utilities from maybe 1500 a year to
550 that the gas company came out to see how was I stealing gas. I was
told by Nipsco my house is the most efficent they have seen. I heat
1800sq for no more than $105 at max -14f lows. Tankless can cost alot
more, but can cost the same, last longer, and save enough to pay you
back, very quickly. Quickly, and that is at todays Ng gas prices, with
oil over 100 a barrel, it`s going to rise real dam fast. Your payback
will be sooner with every Ng price increase, and last I read, new NG
field are not being opened from NIMBY bs, consumption is outpacing
production, that`s why LNG dockyards are being built, so we can IMPORT
gas on tankers, even though we have it in the ground. We have no
energy policy, we have no education. Even England mandates only
Condensing heating units, and England is an Exporter of energy. We are
an Importer. *Dam I should run for President and give America *an
Energy agenda.

Hi Mark,

I don't like misinformation either and I don't have a strong opinion
on this matter. *I don't doubt the operational performance of natural
gas tankless units is superior to that of their electric counterparts
and that the efficiency gains are more impressive. *I have no
first-hand experience with tankless gas, but I'm familiar with the
electric variant and that experience left me cold, literally! *It may
very well have been undersized (I don't honestly know), but the water
never got what you would call "hot" even though the shower was
equipped with a low-flow head and I was the only user at the time.
Based on this admittedly limited experience, I would be hard pressed
to recommend an electric unit, unless it was a high capacity model and
that, in itself, opens up another can of worms.

If someone could tell me that a conventional gas water heater with an
EF of 0.60 would use X cubic metres (or therms) of gas per year and
that a state-of-the-art tankless version would use Y, it would help me
to better compare these two technologies.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Go to Takagi.com or www.energystar.gov , If sized right , mainly
meaning NG supply, they work. I have one.

On Apr 9, 4:59*pm, wrote:
On Apr 9, 2:19*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:





"ransley" wrote

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the
winter benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water
heater is located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Hi Mark,

The impact of standby loss with respect to added a/c demand is
generally very modest for three reasons:

*1) with the exception of some of the southern most states, heating
degree days exceed those of cooling throughout most of North America,
in some cases by a factor of ten or more (e.g., Minneapolis MN).
Pittsburgh PA, a mid-eastern seaboard city, has 5,968 HDD and 654 CDD.
Even in San Diego CA, heating demands exceed those of cooling, i.e.,
1,256 HDD versus 984 CDD;

*2) *generally speaking, water heaters are located inside conditioned
spaces in colder regions due to the risk of freeze damage whereas they
are typically placed in non-conditioned spaces (e.g., attached
garages) in warmer climates -- located outside the home's thermal
envelope, there would be no impact on cooling demand;

*3) for every kWh used, an air conditioner will remove three or more
kWh of heat. *A 10 SEER air conditioner will purge 2.93 kWh of heat
for every one kWh consumed and a 13 SEER air conditioner (the current
minimum standard) will eliminate 3.8 kWh of heat. *Thus, each kWh of
standby tank loss translates to 0.34 kWh of cooling demand at 10 SEER
and 0.26 kWh at 13 SEER.

Taken together, it's pretty clear the benefits in terms of heat gain
far outweigh any potential loss with respect to added cooling demand.

Cheers,
Paul

No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. * Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. * Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. *Some others are in
garages. * I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. * In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. *I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. *Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. * And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. * In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A flue is a chimney, it is a heat loss, only controled by Btu input
and airflow. Holes in walls waste energy.

On Apr 9, 5:39*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. * Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. * Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. *Some others are in
garages. * I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. * In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. *I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. *Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. * And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. * In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. *In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. *Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is completely wrong, most heat loss is up the chimney, a total
waste of energy. Tankless only heat water when you need it, not from
whatever = 7pm - 6am.. Tankless saved ME MONEY and Im happy... and
dont sell or work with Tanlkess companies. Now how abourt Foam
Roofing !!! A way to save $$$$

On Apr 9, 11:37*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Apr 9, 11:14 am, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

then 2 showers and a dishwasher at same time will require multiple
tankless?

No, but it may require a larger, more expensive unit than 1 shower and
a dishwasher at the same time. *Personally I don't think dishwashers
are a big issue, it's no problem to defer dishwasher/clothes washer
use until the showering is done.

Particularly now that washing machines are coming equipped with
delayed start options.

Hey Haller, how come you're ignoring the link and quote I posted from
the engineering trade journal about standby loss? *Trade journals are
rarely run by wacky *******s that print/post bad information. *The
author is an interesting guy:http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200..._talk_sullivan

R

hallerb ignores all logic, he just posts ****.

when going on vacation I turn my water heater to vacation setting. i
doubt it comes on then and costs almost nothing. i too am not sold on
the tankless.


On Apr 7, 3:30*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Apr 7, 2:59 pm, mike wrote:





On Apr 7, 11:50 am, "Bill" wrote:

Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. *They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: *http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. *Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. *They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.

No, they don't run constantly, but they do maintain a large amount of
mass at a substantially higher temperature with relatively little
insulation. *There's only one way to do that - throw money at it. *The
standard water heater tank doesn't have a setback or vacation setting,
so it maintains that higher temperature regardless of the amount of
hot water actually needed, time of day, etc. *Tankless is a superior
system for almost everyone. *I don't buy anything based on what a
salesman or marketing department states without performing some due
diligence and investigating on my own.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Apr 9, 3:28*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:02:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
Hi paul, I really dont see much of either heat gain winter or summer,
Im just arguing against misinformed oposition. *I see a flue going up
the uninsulated part of the tank going outdoors. I guess im a little
****ed at negatives thrown at tankless by people that never owned one,
and post wrong information. I own one, I can see on my 9$ summer gas
bill, I see a short payback, and I cook all food on a gas stove and
have a gas dryer. Tank Energy Factor is what nobody wants to
aknowlegde. Energy Factor for Tanks are about 52-60, and it simply
means, in fact, if your tank is a 60 E.F., $0.40 of every dollar you
pay to heat water is wasted. Tankless EF ratings are near Total
efficencies, Tankless EF ratings are from 82-95 [95 for a condensing
Takagi] We have all these folks here who put down tankless with bogus,
stupid, bad, information. *Granted tankless are not for all, but they
are designed to last 30 years since the coil is thick copper pipe,
they save money, they have drawbacks you must learn to live with, but
I like saving money and not paying utilitie companies. I did so well
with a 110 yr old house, lowering utilities from maybe 1500 a year to
550 that the gas company came out to see how was I stealing gas. I was
told by Nipsco my house is the most efficent they have seen. I heat
1800sq for no more than $105 at max -14f lows. Tankless can cost alot
more, but can cost the same, last longer, and save enough to pay you
back, very quickly. Quickly, and that is at todays Ng gas prices, with
oil over 100 a barrel, it`s going to rise real dam fast. Your payback
will be sooner with every Ng price increase, and last I read, new NG
field are not being opened from NIMBY bs, consumption is outpacing
production, that`s why LNG dockyards are being built, so we can IMPORT
gas on tankers, even though we have it in the ground. We have no
energy policy, we have no education. Even England mandates only
Condensing heating units, and England is an Exporter of energy. We are
an Importer. *Dam I should run for President and give America *an
Energy agenda.

Hi Mark,

I don't like misinformation either and I don't have a strong opinion
on this matter. *I don't doubt the operational performance of natural
gas tankless units is superior to that of their electric counterparts
and that the efficiency gains are more impressive. *I have no
first-hand experience with tankless gas, but I'm familiar with the
electric variant and that experience left me cold, literally! *It may
very well have been undersized (I don't honestly know), but the water
never got what you would call "hot" even though the shower was
equipped with a low-flow head and I was the only user at the time.
Based on this admittedly limited experience, I would be hard pressed
to recommend an electric unit, unless it was a high capacity model and
that, in itself, opens up another can of worms.

If someone could tell me that a conventional gas water heater with an
EF of 0.60 would use X cubic metres (or therms) of gas per year and
that a state-of-the-art tankless version would use Y, it would help me
to better compare these two technologies.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You need someone to check Gas Flow or supply with a Manometer. To be
sure at your lowest winter temps, with all competing appliances on,
and calculating winter reduced flow YOU HAVE THE BTUs most installers
are to dumb to do it. .

On Apr 9, 6:31Â*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 6:39�pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:





On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. � Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. � Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. �Some others are in
garages. � I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. � In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. �I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. �Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. � And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. � In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. �In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. �Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ahh tank vs tankless, while posters get their panties in a wad, they
could be getting a energy audit where they evaluate your insulation
and check for air leaks.

heating water standby losses are just one of many standby things in
your home eating energy.

how old and how efficent is your furnace? using LED or CF lights to
save power, are all your appliances energy star rated?

how about the SUV in your driveway? or do you drive a small fuel
efficent car?

theres a million ways to waste energy, hot water is just one.........

are all your hot water lines insulated?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yea and HW is the biggest waste for most, so what is your Point .
Zero. as I see it....Zero in your attacks

On Apr 9, 3:29Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:





On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger..

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Im not showing you anything, its there in print, Â*The only ignorant
one Is you Hallerb. Â*Learn to Google and post fact.

Â*Tankless coil is just thick Copper pipe, What does copper piping
last, 50 Years ? Â*60? 80? go figure Mr Hallerb. 30 year life is a
design and is published.

Â* Scale in tank, is there. I took out a 20 yr old tank with 13"
THIRTEEN inches of scale, yes so the burner is heating Scale. The
facts are there. there is something called Google you can search to
your hearts desire to learn Facts, not the BS you keep ramping about.
You are the one who is uninformed or to dam ignorant to keep posting
BS ,

please post the link to the 30 year lifetime, a water heater is much
more than a copper coil of pipe, a modern no pilot tankless has lots
of electronic controls water use sensors etc that can go bad..... heck
over time technology changes a lot, with ICs your out of business. a
good example is modern high efficency furnaces, they dont last near as
long as the old ones did.....

will the manufacturer even stock a part at a reasonable price after
the warranty has expired?

your rose colored glasses must make everything a garden of eden, even
when its a swamp filled with hungry gators...

so google the 30 year lifetime, and post it............

On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:





On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Show me a tank with 10 year warranaty and I show you a tankkless with
30 year , wake up moron, tankless are pipe with coil

On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:





On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a freakin moron--- learn to Google it might help your ignorance

On Apr 9, 11:37*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Apr 9, 11:14 am, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

then 2 showers and a dishwasher at same time will require multiple
tankless?

No, but it may require a larger, more expensive unit than 1 shower and
a dishwasher at the same time. *Personally I don't think dishwashers
are a big issue, it's no problem to defer dishwasher/clothes washer
use until the showering is done.

Particularly now that washing machines are coming equipped with
delayed start options.

Hey Haller, how come you're ignoring the link and quote I posted from
the engineering trade journal about standby loss? *Trade journals are
rarely run by wacky *******s that print/post bad information. *The
author is an interesting guy:http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200..._talk_sullivan

R

Hallerb ignores all facts , he is Hallerb

On Apr 9, 8:50Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:





On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger..

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Show me a tank with 10 year warranaty and I show you a tankkless with
30 year , wake up moron, tankless are pipe with Â*coil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

so show me the 30 year warranty or expected life............

bottom line you wouldnt because you cant......

calling names just demeanes you.

On Apr 9, 5:39*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. * Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. * Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. *Some others are in
garages. * I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. * In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. *I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. *Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. * And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. * In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. *In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. *Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heat loss, Up chimney, you calculated wrong, sorry bub, your loss is
more than you think. Your loss is 24x7 and its alot of BTUs up and
out, you dont know jack on saving jack.

This thread is worse than Chinese spam, and that is saying something!
If you finish up by
email, you can type dirty words and really vent )

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:01:56 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. *In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. *Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Heat loss, Up chimney, you calculated wrong, sorry bub, your loss is
more than you think. Your loss is 24x7 and its alot of BTUs up and
out, you dont know jack on saving jack.

Hi Mark,

Just to be clear, there is no natural gas service in our neighbourhood
-- there are perhaps 500 homes in the entire province that have access
to it, if that. Consequently, our DHW tanks are electric, although a
small percentage are oil-fired and with rare exception propane (at
$1.25 per litre/$4.70 per gallon, propane is almost three times more
costly than electric). The heat losses I speak of are in relation to
electric water heaters, not gas.

Cheers,
Paul

On Apr 9, 6:31Â*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 6:39�pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:





On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
No, it's not clear at all to me that is the case. � Because contrary
to your claim, in my experience most water heaters I've seen, from NJ
through New England are NOT in conditioned spaces. � Most are in an
unfinished basement. That's where mine is. �Some others are in
garages. � I would say only a minority are in conditioned living
spaces. � In all the condos and homes I've lived in, I have never had
a water heater in the living space. �I know they exist, but the point
is, they are not the majority of cases. �Even where you have one in a
utility closet, it's not clear to me how much of that waste heat gets
into the living space itself, as opposed to just raising the temp of
the closet that it's in.

Now, even hallerb apparently conceeds that most of the standby loss is
up the flue. � And the rest of the loss, that escapes the tank sides,
doesn't by some miracle all go into the living space above. � In fact,
I would bet that in a water heater in the basement, which is a typical
case, only a small amount, probably unmeasureable makes it up there.

As is true of most every home in my neighbourhood, my DHW tank is
located in a finished basement so 100 per cent of its heat loss is
usable over the course of the heating season; in this case, a span of
some seven months -- eight for thermal wimps.

Even unfinished basements, unless the floor joists are well insulated,
are thermally connected to the conditioned space above. �In fact,
according to one Ontario Hydro study, 25 per cent of a home's heat
loss occurs through the basement. �Until it reaches equilibrium, heat
will eventually migrate throughout the building structure, regardless
of its point of origin.

Cheers,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ahh tank vs tankless, while posters get their panties in a wad, they
could be getting a energy audit where they evaluate your insulation
and check for air leaks.

heating water standby losses are just one of many standby things in
your home eating energy.

how old and how efficent is your furnace? using LED or CF lights to
save power, are all your appliances energy star rated?

how about the SUV in your driveway? or do you drive a small fuel
efficent car?

theres a million ways to waste energy, hot water is just one.........

are all your hot water lines insulated?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And HW waste just shows your overalll ignorance

On Apr 9, 7:48Â*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 3:29Â*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Im not showing you anything, its there in print, Â*The only ignorant
one Is you Hallerb. Â*Learn to Google and post fact.

Â*Tankless coil is just thick Copper pipe, What does copper piping
last, 50 Years ? Â*60? 80? go figure Mr Hallerb. 30 year life is a
design and is published.

Â* Scale in tank, is there. I took out a 20 yr old tank with 13"
THIRTEEN inches of scale, yes so the burner is heating Scale. The
facts are there. there is something called Google you can search to
your hearts desire to learn Facts, not the BS you keep ramping about.
You are the one who is uninformed or to dam ignorant to keep posting
BS ,

please post the link to the 30 year lifetime, a water heater is much
more than a copper coil of pipe, a modern no pilot tankless has lots
of electronic controls water use sensors etc that can go bad..... heck
over time technology changes a lot, with ICs your out of business. a
good example is modern high efficency furnaces, they dont last near as
long as the old ones did.....

will the manufacturer even stock a part at a reasonable price after
the warranty has expired?

your rose colored glasses must make everything a garden of eden, even
when its a swamp filled with hungry gators...

so google the 30 year lifetime, and post it............- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Link - you do a google and refute me.............

On Apr 9, 7:48Â*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 3:29Â*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Im not showing you anything, its there in print, Â*The only ignorant
one Is you Hallerb. Â*Learn to Google and post fact.

Â*Tankless coil is just thick Copper pipe, What does copper piping
last, 50 Years ? Â*60? 80? go figure Mr Hallerb. 30 year life is a
design and is published.

Â* Scale in tank, is there. I took out a 20 yr old tank with 13"
THIRTEEN inches of scale, yes so the burner is heating Scale. The
facts are there. there is something called Google you can search to
your hearts desire to learn Facts, not the BS you keep ramping about.
You are the one who is uninformed or to dam ignorant to keep posting
BS ,

please post the link to the 30 year lifetime, a water heater is much
more than a copper coil of pipe, a modern no pilot tankless has lots
of electronic controls water use sensors etc that can go bad..... heck
over time technology changes a lot, with ICs your out of business. a
good example is modern high efficency furnaces, they dont last near as
long as the old ones did.....

will the manufacturer even stock a part at a reasonable price after
the warranty has expired?

your rose colored glasses must make everything a garden of eden, even
when its a swamp filled with hungry gators...

so google the 30 year lifetime, and post it............- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

**** mine is 10 years old and no issues, I dont care of your worries
im insatallin a new unit at a new location, so I save, so you **** it
away , go yourself and waste it Hal boy, you always have. Keep a
waisten Hal Boy.

On Apr 9, 9:45Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 9, 7:48Â*pm, " wrote:





On Apr 9, 3:29Â*pm, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C.. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years..........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Im not showing you anything, its there in print, Â*The only ignorant
one Is you Hallerb. Â*Learn to Google and post fact.

Â*Tankless coil is just thick Copper pipe, What does copper piping
last, 50 Years ? Â*60? 80? go figure Mr Hallerb. 30 year life is a
design and is published.

Â* Scale in tank, is there. I took out a 20 yr old tank with 13"
THIRTEEN inches of scale, yes so the burner is heating Scale. The
facts are there. there is something called Google you can search to
your hearts desire to learn Facts, not the BS you keep ramping about.
You are the one who is uninformed or to dam ignorant to keep posting
BS ,

please post the link to the 30 year lifetime, a water heater is much
more than a copper coil of pipe, a modern no pilot tankless has lots
of electronic controls water use sensors etc that can go bad..... heck
over time technology changes a lot, with ICs your out of business. a
good example is modern high efficency furnaces, they dont last near as
long as the old ones did.....

will the manufacturer even stock a part at a reasonable price after
the warranty has expired?

your rose colored glasses must make everything a garden of eden, even
when its a swamp filled with hungry gators...

so google the 30 year lifetime, and post it............- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

**** mine is 10 years old and no issues, I dont care of your worries
im insatallin a new unit at a new location, so I save, so you **** it
away , go yourself and waste it Hal boy, you always have. Keep a
waisten Hal Boy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ransley posts nothing but complaints, and refuses to post verified
links.....

he just talks like a authority, claims stuff but doesnt know what he
is talking about.........

Hey Haller, how come you're ignoring the link and quote I posted from
the engineering trade journal about standby loss? Trade journals are
rarely run by wacky *******s that print/post bad information. The
author is an interesting guy:http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200..._talk_sullivan

R


heres your link its about boilers, remember were talking hot water
tanks

The Talk of The Town Online Only Subscribe About Us Archive Store
The New Yorker
Welcome to NewYorker.com Log in | Register
In the Basement
The Boiler Man
by Robert Sullivan
March 17, 2003 Text Size:
Small Text
Medium Text
Large Text Print E-Mail Feeds Keywords
Gifford, Henry; Boiler Rooms, Boilers; Tours; New York City; New York
City Boiler Tour; Gifford Fuel Saving, Inc.; Apartments One thing that
distinguishes Henry Gifford's New York City Boiler Tour is the fact
that there are no boiler tours quite like it in New York City, not to
mention anywhere else in the United States or, possibly, the world.
Another is the singular passion for boilers that is exhibited by Henry
Gifford, of Gifford Fuel Saving, Inc. Gifford came to boilers late in
life, when he was twenty and had already worked as a bicycle mechanic,
a window-gate welder, and a landlord. As a landlord, Gifford had
calculated that the biggest variable in terms of expenses was the
boiler. He observed that in the boiler arena there seemed to be what
he called a "knowledge vacuum," and he set out to fill it. "I miss
having buildings," Henry, who is now forty-two, said the other day, as
his tour was about to kick off. "But I would have gotten tired of it
by now, and I would have missed all the fun I've had with boilers."

Not surprisingly, some of the forty-one people who signed up for this
inaugural boiler tour did so as much to be with Henry as to see the
boilers. Tim Baker, the managing editor of a mechanical-engineering
magazine, flew in from Cleveland. "I mean, you can just sense the love
that this guy has for boilers," Baker said.

The three-day tour started early on a cold Thursday on the ground
floor of a multifamily apartment building on East Fifth Street. Over
coffee and bagels, Henry introduced people. "You know when you want to
see what kind of an airflow you've got in a room, so you measure it
with a blower door? Well, this guy makes them," he said, pointing to
Gary Nelson, who had flown in from Minnesota, and who was scanning the
room with an infrared camera, searching for heat leakage. There was
the usual run of boiler enthusiasts: architects, alternative-energy
marketers, officials from the Building Performance Institute, and a
landlord named Ralph, who looked like an old sailor.

Henry began with a lecture, accompanied by slides. In his view, the
two most prominent New York City heat-related phenomena--open windows
in overheated apartments, and clanking radiators--are prime examples of
boiler ignorance and waste. To no one's surprise, Henry's talk went
long.

When he was done, the tour group set out to look at some boilers.
There was a quick stop at a building on Avenue C, to watch a boiler-
related film, "Carmelita Tropicana: Your Kunst is Your Waffen,"
starring Carmelita Tropicana, a superintendent/performance artist.
That was followed by a lunch break at Katz's Delicatessen, on Houston
Street, where a woman in a fur coat said to the group, "What? Are you
bird-watching?" Someone told her what they were up to. "Boilers!" she
said. "Oh, that's not very exciting." In the afternoon, Henry sneaked
his people into the basement of an old church, where they saw the
history of boilers encapsulated: turn-of-the-century coal to eighties
super-efficient natural-gas-fired pulse combustion, then back to oil.
On the way out, an engineer from Massachusetts said, "I feel
excitingly illicit."


from the issuecartoon banke-mail thisThe next day, everyone met up in
Harlem, in a brownstone with hundred-year-old radiators, each with a
thermostat attached, a detail that made Henry ecstatic, even though
Con Edison hadn't hooked up the gas and everyone was shivering. In the
basement, with a single light bulb dangling above his head, he
described the Gifford formula for calculating pipe friction and flow,
a formula that, despite Henry's best efforts, has yet to be embraced
by the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-
Conditioning.

All told, the boiler tour went on for seven days--four days and many
heating systems more than Henry had planned. But it was during the
lecture/slide show, on the first day, that Tim Baker, the engineering-
magazine editor, asked the question that seemed to sum it all up.
"Henry," he said, his pen in the air. "You've talked about the
ignorance, the dishonesty. Why is this?"

Henry's face broke into a grin that was bright enough to heat a loft
space. He turned to an associate, who was working the slide projector.
"Put the Madonna slide on," he said. The slide showed young people
standing in line on a Greenwich Village sidewalk. "O.K., so these
people want to be dancers with Madonna's world tour," Henry said.
"Look at this--the line stretches around the block. I asked these
people, 'How much does this job pay per hour?' And none of them knew.
This has to do with what I call the Gifford Status-Money Ratio: the
amount of money a job pays is inversely correlated to the amount of
status the job has. The dancers get paid with social status. Boiler
work has zero or negative social status. And this ratio also
influences the quality of work to be gotten from a person working in
that field. In the basement, there's money, but there's no status.
This doesn't mean you're dumb if you work in the basement. It just
means that you're not expected to be smart. The fact is, excellence is
not expected in the basement."

On Apr 9, 8:50Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:





On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger..

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Show me a tank with 10 year warranaty and I show you a tankkless with
30 year , wake up moron, tankless are pipe with Â*coil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i walked thru home depot, their longest warranty is on a standard tank
12 years. you can verify this easily, sears etc.

your turn show me a 30 year life for a modern tankless..........

ransley must own stock in a tankless manufacturer, that would explain
his rant.

my only point is to educate people before they buy a tankless so they
arent disappointed.

what they ultimately choose doesnt effect me either way.

but i dont rant and rave like ransley, who undewear must be in a wad

On Apr 10, 8:54 am, " wrote:
Hey Haller, how come you're ignoring the link and quote I posted from
the engineering trade journal about standby loss? Trade journals are
rarely run by wacky *******s that print/post bad information. The
author is an interesting guy:http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200..._talk_sullivan


heres your link its about boilers, remember were talking hot water
tanks

{snip the entire article about the _author_ }

No, the original link with the article from the trade journal, not my
second post asking why you ignored the first. Here's the pertinent
excerpt from the first post.

hallerb wrote:

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

And my response with the link:

You mean like this one?
http://www.hpac.com/Issue/Article/27...stic_Ho****er_...
An excerpt: "Energy efficiency is another problem with a typical
direct-fired water heater. A standard water heater is rated at about
84-percent steady state efficiency. That means that while the fire is
on, 84 percent of the heat from the fire enters the tank, while 16
percent of the heat goes up the chimney. That sounds pretty good, but
a water heater is not a steady state device: the fire turns on and
off. While the heater is off heat is still going up the chimney.

The annual fuel utilization efficiency (AFUE) rating of a typical
water heater is much lower, in the range of 70 percent for a 40-gal.
heater and dropping to 51 percent for a 75-gal. heater. An AFUE of 51
percent means that 51 percent of the heat in the fuel leaves the
heater by going out the hot water pipe. Except for a little heat lost
through the jacket of the heater, the rest goes up the chimney. So
while about 16 percent of the heat goes up the chimney while the fire
is burning, about another 15 to 35 percent, called "standby loss" goes
out the chimney while the fire is not burning."

R

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Dioclese" NONE wrote in message
m...
"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote in message
news:VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01...

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they
all complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and
kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.





If the users of said hot water are old enough, yet not too old to move
out of the way quickly, just bump the temp setting up higher.
Adjustment to less hot water for comfort should save some hot water for
other purposes. Extremely lengthy showers are always a concern. They may
be longer as a result, with same lack of hot water. The predominant male
is in order to fix that lack of discipline.
--
Dave

The simple solution: let the kids shower last. Mom and Dad go first and
take long long showers to use up all the hot water and let the kids learn
that waiting is the result of their taking long showers and being
inconsiderate of others. Either that, or they will take colder shorter
showers until they catch on. If they ever do.

Steve


My dad and mom had a 3 bedroom home. I grew up with 7 brothers and sisters.
We had a 40 gallon natural gas water heater for the house, and another
outside for the washer only. We all knew there was a time interval between
showers and baths for hot water. The hot water heater closet was
immediately next the the single bathroom. It stopped protesting noises when
it was ready again. And, yes, sometimes someone would have to do without
for a day, or stay up later.

Currently, I live alone. I've got a 40 gallon electric version 2 tank
model. It runs out of hot water around the time just before I fill the bath
so I end up with mediocre hot water. I love hot water. The shower always
is less warm than the bath. From the git-go to the end of short shower.
Got one of those one valve jobbers for selecting hot/cold for the shower and
bath. Haven't figured that out yet.
--
Dave

On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:50:31 -0700, Matt W. Barrow wrote:

"Glenn" wrote in message
...
Curious. It's just a damn 'hot' water heater. Why all the passion?

Because it's a paradigm shift and those always bring discomfort.

My opinion is it's caused by a failing in the American educational system
(I'm sure other countries have similar failings, but I'm only an expert on
America). We don't learn analytical thinking, nor how to apply analytical
thinking to practical everyday problems. We aren't taught to be critical
consumers.

I studied physics, and TA'd freshman physics labs at Georgia Tech, a place
where reasonably bright, reasonably well educated types go. They all knew
the algebra necessary to solve the labs (it was 9'th grade level math),
but it was extremely rare to find someone who would, without walking them
through it, be able to take the simple physical problem and translate it
into the simple mathematical equation, and then solve that equation.

American consumers, just like American voters (same people after all) are
far more likely to make an emotional decision than a rational one,
although a goodly number of them go to a lot of effort to rationalize
their decisions afterward. Then they go to a lot of effort to justify
their rationalizations, instead of being flexible and changing their minds
about things as new information and technology arises (look at how much
mileage Bush got out calling Kerry a 'waffler').

Because their decision making is emotional, they get emotional about
justifying the decision, and it becomes next-to-impossible to argue with
them. The more thoroughly you can prove that they are mistaken, the more
****ed off they will get, and impossible to convince.

Additionally, as a culture want simple answers. We like to paint things
in terms of good and evil, right and wrong. The water heater thing isn't
so simple. Whether a tankless system is good for you depends on your use,
and it's worth going over the facts and making an intelligent decision.
On the other hand, the facts seem to indicate it is the right choice for
the majority of people, not to mention the environment.

Finally, we're a pretty prideful people. Humility is not taught as a
virtue in our culture. So we take it as a personal shortcoming, or a loss
of face, when we are proven wrong. The more passionately we argue for
something, the more face we lose if we change our mind. It's important to
struggle against that mode of being since it leads to really sub-optimal
solutions.

For my side,I would hope both this post and the previous one showed more a
passion for analytical thinking and reasonable decision making than they
do for tankless water heaters

glen
www.glenstark.net

Show me a tank with 10 year warranaty and I show you a tankkless with
30 year , wake up moron, tankless are pipe with Â*coil- Hide quoted text

The longest tank heater warranty is the same as the longest tankless, 12
years.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...oling-and-air/
water-heaters/waterheater-tips-205-gas-hot-water-heater-electric-hot-water-
heater/overview/

The expected life of a tankless system however is roughly double the
tank, and maintenance is cheaper. See

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/...ing/index.cfm/
mytopic=12820