Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
....
1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

In my experience, yes; but everybody is different. We raised four kids
and don't recall running out of hot water being a significant issue.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

Well, certainly it will go up -- how much will depend on how much more
hot water you end up actually using.

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

Some jurisdictions, possibly altho I've not heard of it doesn't mean
there aren't...

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

No data...



Comments --

1. There's a middle between 40 and 80, too. What about 50/60???

2. If there's a particular bath that tends to be the problem area,
might consider the on-demand solution for the overloaded area.

3. Depending on house layout, two smaller each located strategically
might be a better solution than the single larger, too...

--

Glenn said something like:
"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com
wrote in message news:VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01...

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10
years old, which I hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal
water heater, they all complain that they run out of
hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

When I had two daughters home, I had two 40gal set up
in series. They make a 60 gal but 2 - 40's probably
would be cheaper.

Another question that has always bugged me raises in me noggin.

What happens when half a tank is used up? Does ice cold water rush in and
cool everything down? Is it thus better to gang two together somehow to
have the 2nd take over when the first is refilling?

On Apr 7, 1:24 pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/ I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

R

Cold water sinks so it pushes the hot water up, although you will get some
"warm" water before cold as the hot water runs out.

I would agree that 40 is enough most of the time but you will run short
every now and then. I can't imaging a 60 gal not being adequate for you.
The idea of 2 x 40 gal is interesting, but I suspect it would use more
energy than 1 X 80 check the ratings, certainly more than 1 x 60 gal.


"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:MftKj.3026$_I1.667@trnddc02...
Glenn said something like:
"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com
wrote in message news:VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01...

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10
years old, which I hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal
water heater, they all complain that they run out of
hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

When I had two daughters home, I had two 40gal set up
in series. They make a 60 gal but 2 - 40's probably
would be cheaper.

Another question that has always bugged me raises in me noggin.

What happens when half a tank is used up? Does ice cold water rush in and
cool everything down? Is it thus better to gang two together somehow to
have the 2nd take over when the first is refilling?

Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/ I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.


Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

On Apr 7, 11:50*am, "Bill" wrote:
Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. *They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: *http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/*I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.

On Apr 7, 2:59 pm, mike wrote:
On Apr 7, 11:50 am, "Bill" wrote:



Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/ I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.

No, they don't run constantly, but they do maintain a large amount of
mass at a substantially higher temperature with relatively little
insulation. There's only one way to do that - throw money at it. The
standard water heater tank doesn't have a setback or vacation setting,
so it maintains that higher temperature regardless of the amount of
hot water actually needed, time of day, etc. Tankless is a superior
system for almost everyone. I don't buy anything based on what a
salesman or marketing department states without performing some due
diligence and investigating on my own.

R

Salesman I'm not, someone who likes to save money, I am.
I'm sorry you are that naive to technology.

Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/ I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it
will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:24:05 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:


Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.


Sounds a lot, but maybe that is what you need. Teenagers use the most
hot water for some reason.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

Maybe. If you have more hot water, there may be less effort to
conserve.

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?


No. But 80 sounds large. A tank with a different height may present
some installation issues, so allow for more time.

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

Stick with well-known brands. I added a thermal blanket to my water
heater, plus insulated all the hot water tubes. I set the water
temperature to 125 degrees. Anything lower than 120 can grow bacteria.
Flush your tank twice a year and it should last longer than 10 years.




I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

On 04/07/08 01:24 pm Thomas G. Marshall wrote:

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.


ISTR that the standard capacity in Australia was 60 gallons, with 80
gallons as a common upgrade -- and remember that these are "Real
gallons," each consisting of eight 20-ounce pints. The one already in
the house we bought in the US Midwest, however, is 50 (mini-)gallons.

I don't know how the various brands rate here in the USA, but Rheem was
common in Australia. When we built our house in Australia, however, we
used a local (I mean really local, not marketed outside that State,
AFAIK) brand that had a 25-yr warranty. One day I was wandering through
a shopping mall and got accosted by the salesdroid at a Rheem booth who
asked me how old my water heater was; when I told him "12 years," he
said, "Oh, so you'll be needing a new one soon"; when I told him the
brand I had, he said, "Oh, then you won't be needing a new one for a
long time yet." IOW, widely advertised brands aren't always the best.

Perce

On Apr 7, 12:34*pm, "Bill" wrote:
Salesman I'm not, someone who likes to save money, I am.
I'm sorry you are that naive to technology.





Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link:http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it
will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. *Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. *They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're the one who thought that standard water heaters run
continuously and that tankless are 80% more efficient than tanks!
SNORT.

Maybe you should listen to someone besides your tankless salesman:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020802253.html

But if you want spend dollars to chase pennies, more power to ya.

the best solution really again falls back on supervision and discipline.
(something parents don't think they have to do anymore) Make rules and
enforce them. Teenager showers are 5 minutes long. Period. No hot water
problem, no outrageous water bills, no septic problems. (for those on
septics). We raised 2 boys and had countless others living with us over the
years and made do just fine on a gas 40 gallon unit.

and the tankless boys can stick them. I like HOT water. Not lukewarm
water.

s


"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01...

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

On Apr 7, 5:45*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 04/07/08 01:24 pm Thomas G. Marshall wrote:





Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. *About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids)..

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? *Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

ISTR that the standard capacity in Australia was 60 gallons, with 80
gallons as a common upgrade -- and remember that these are "Real
gallons," each consisting of eight 20-ounce pints. The one already in
the house we bought in the US Midwest, however, is 50 (mini-)gallons.

I don't know how the various brands rate here in the USA, but Rheem was
common in Australia. When we built our house in Australia, however, we
used a local (I mean really local, not marketed outside that State,
AFAIK) brand that had a 25-yr warranty. One day I was wandering through
a shopping mall and got accosted by the salesdroid at a Rheem booth who
asked me how old my water heater was; when I told him "12 years," he
said, "Oh, so you'll be needing a new one soon"; when I told him the
brand I had, he said, "Oh, then you won't be needing a new one for a
long time yet." IOW, widely advertised brands aren't always the best.

Perce- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



Before concluding that 40gallons is the problem, I'd check the shower
heads and flow rates. You may find that reducing the shower flow a
bit means you will have enough hot water from a 40 and save energy
too. Also, it's possible the existing one has some serious
problems. If it's full of sediment, has a broken dip tube, etc, it
may not be performing anywhere near what a new one is capable of.

Check the first hour rating on the ones you are considering. That'a
a good indicator of how much water they can supply in typical high
demand hour.

If you do decide to go larger, I'd think a 50 with a good first hour
rating would probably be enough for most families of 4.

As others have pointed out, you can also consider tankless. Main
issues there are unit and installation cost, which can be higher
depending on existing gas lines. The TL needs a much larger gas
supply.

regular 40 gallon hot water tank BTU vary anywhere from 34,000 btu to
75,000 btu. the higher the BTU the better.

Because we ran out occasionally we went from a 34,000 BTU 40 gallon
tank to a 75,000 BTU 50 gallon tank. I wanted a 75 gallon tank but it
wouldnt fit the available space between toilet and furnace.

Tankless tends to be a hot topic here........ from inadquate heat, =
cool showers if you live in areas that freeze in the winter, no hot
water at all in a power failure, if the tankless uses line voltage to
operate, no hot water with valve just open a little, super expensive
install, needing new gas line and occasionally a new meter. teenagers
given unlimited hot water might live in the shower. expensive service,
tankless are complex and require occasional service, standby losses in
current tanks is actually low, and stanby losses help heat your home
in the winter, so most of the heat isnt really lost. life is full of
sytandby losses, tv, cable boxes clocks etc etc. anything that draws
power when not in use is a standby loss......

your old tank is probably full of sludge decreasing its hot water
ability.

a new tankless will cost a fortune.......... 3 to 4 times a standard
tank which is highly reliable.

so lets talk tanks

upgrade from your old 40 gallon probably 40,000 btu to a 75 or 80
gallon 75,000 btu will likely give you about 4 times or more your
current hot water capacity. and in its life probably never need
service

you double the gallon capacity and double the burners BTU rating,
roughly 4 times the hot water.

no more cold showers

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Apr 7, 2:59 pm, mike wrote:


Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.

I was going to jump on Mike but then you proved him totally correct!


No, they don't run constantly, but they do maintain a large amount of
mass at a substantially higher temperature with relatively little
insulation.

The insulation in most water heaters today is good and easily
supplicated as well. That's not a valid point at all.

There's only one way to do that - throw money at it. The
standard water heater tank doesn't have a setback or vacation setting,

Sure it does. Gas water heaters do have (and have had for years) such
as setting. An electric heater has the circuit breaker--kick it off
and the hot water cost is then zero.

so it maintains that higher temperature regardless of the amount of
hot water actually needed, time of day, etc. Tankless is a superior
system for almost everyone.

Nope, not even slightly.

I don't buy anything based on what a
salesman or marketing department states without performing some due
diligence and investigating on my own.

Which you didn't do here. There are many situations where tankless is
far from optimal.

Oh, and FYI, I've had both, and I'm totally satisfied with the results
of my 40 gal *tanked* water heater! We're not talking investigation
here, but real world experience.

On Apr 7, 1:24*pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. *About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? *Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.



Get an 80 gallon water heater. Check the efficiency rating tag on the
heater and get the most efficient one. Ignore all other comments --
sometimes you can get too much information.

.

Get an 80 gallon water heater. �Check the efficiency rating tag on the
heater and get the most efficient one. �Ignore all other comments --
sometimes you can get too much information.

your far better off with a higher BTU tank........

incidently 2 tanks in series is best for added capacity....... but
doubles standby losses..

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:50:30 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

This is totally false. According to the U.S. DOE, the standby losses
of a conventional electric water heater with an EF rating of 0.93 are
331 kWh a year. At $0.10 per kWh, these losses amount to less than
$3.00 per month. And if you live in an area where heating demands
dominate and the tank is located inside a conditioned space, your
actual out-of-pocket expense would be even less.

In addition, if you install a tankless water heater and it results in
excessive strain on the utility's distribution system or adversely
impacts power quality (e.g., flickering lights due to high transient
load), you could be held personally liable for the full cost of any
necessary transformer and line upgrades; a next door neighbour
complaining to the power company about "bad power" could very well
cost you several thousands of dollars.

http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Cheers,
Paul

In article VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01,
"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:

1. Is 80 gallons overkill?

Yes.

The 40-gallon water heater in our old house died just as our three
daughters "discovered" hot water.

I installed a 50-gallon. It was a PERFECT fit for the five of us.

In our next house, built in 1991 with one full and two 3/4 baths, we
have a 50-gallon heater and have virtually never run out of hot water.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

Probably not a LARGE increase. Your hot water consumption is what it
is, whether it is delivered using a 40-gallon tank or an 80. The cost
to heat a gallon of water will be the same with either tank. It's the
standby loss that would make the biggest difference between the two
sizes.

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I think they're all the same. Price difference will be dictated by
length of tank warranty and BTU input.

Have your plumber install his spec model 50. Done. Have fun!
--

JR

On Apr 7, 2:01�pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Apr 7, 1:24 pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"





. com wrote:
Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. �About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids)..

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? �Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. �They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: �http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/�I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thought we needed watr heatr and researched tankless but was afraid
we'd lose our on demand feature and waitng 4 hot water would b an
issue..mayb ok 4 auxiliary hot water...good luck..sherry

mike said something like:
On Apr 7, 12:34 pm, "Bill" wrote:

....[snip]...

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

You're the one who thought that standard water heaters run
continuously and that tankless are 80% more efficient than tanks!
SNORT.

Maybe you should listen to someone besides your tankless salesman:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020802253.html

But if you want spend dollars to chase pennies, more power to ya.


I think Bill was actually agreeing with that article, but that article
pretty much sells me on the tanks. Anyone here debunk that article at all?

On Apr 8, 7:27�am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
mike said something like:

On Apr 7, 12:34 pm, "Bill" wrote:

...[snip]...

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

You're the one who thought that standard water heaters run
continuously and that tankless are 80% more efficient than tanks!
SNORT.

Maybe you should listen to someone besides your tankless salesman:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../02/08/ST20080...

But if you want spend dollars to chase pennies, more power to ya.

I think Bill was actually agreeing with that article, but that article
pretty much sells me on the tanks. �Anyone here debunk that article at all?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whats to debunk the savings will take longer than the life of the
heater......

please explain how this is a advantage?

A: DEAR BOB: Tankless water heaters -- it's one of those topics that
seem to polarize people, and I have come to realize that many
consumers don't stop and ask all the right questions before they get
out their credit cards or checkbooks. It is impossible in this limited
space to fully discuss the topic.

I am going to stick to some basic facts I've gathered from my utility
bill, from water-heater manufacturers and from Web sites that sell
additional installation parts. I am adding a pinch of high school
math.

A tankless water heater can cost up to three times what a traditional
storage-tank water heater does. Some tankless water heaters that use
natural gas or propane require expensive stainless-steel exhaust-
venting pipes. The gas lines feeding the heaters need to be larger
than those required by a traditional model. This is not a challenge in
new construction like your vacation home, but it can add considerable
expense in an existing home where the fuel lines might need to be
redone.

Tankless water heaters are more energy-efficient than traditional
storage-tank heaters. A traditional water heater might be 60 percent
efficient, whereas a newer tankless heater often can produce
efficiencies of 80 percent or higher.

I studied my August 2007 utility bill and found that I spent about $36
on hot water using a traditional storage-tank heater for a family of
five sometimes taking two showers a day. My winter hot-water costs
could be expected to be slightly more because the temperature of the
incoming water is colder and must be heated longer to reach the
desired temperature.

We use our water heater every day. You may be using your water heater
for 40 to 50 days a year.

If I were to switch to a tankless heater today, I might save $7 per
month on the efficiency differential and maybe an additional $2 per
month on the amount of energy lost while the heated water sits in the
tank. This means a tankless water heater could save me $108 per year.
Let's be more aggressive and say $125 per year.

If my existing water heater failed today and I replaced it with a
tankless model sized for my family's needs, I would have to spend an
extra $1,550. It would take me nearly 12 1/2 years to break even. If I
included lost interest income on the extra money I spent for the
tankless model, the payback period would be longer.

In your case, the bottom line is far worse. It could take you at least
30 years to break even because the tankless water heater would sit
idle in your vacation home for most of the year. Tankless water
heaters must work hard every day to make economic sense for many
people.

On Apr 7, 1:59*pm, mike wrote:
On Apr 7, 11:50*am, "Bill" wrote:





Instead of replacing the old with a newer version of the old, you may
want to look into a tankless water heater instead of keeping that 40+
gallons of water at ready-to-be-used temperature 24/7/365 when you
really only need the hot water for _maybe_ an hour a day. *They've
been in use around the world for decades, but are just gaining
momentum in the US.
Here's one link: *http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/*I haven't
read through that link, but it seemed to hit the high points and will
give you an overview - from there it's up to you and your finely honed
Google skills.

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. *Standard water heaters DO
NOT run constantly. *They are well insulated and have a large thermal
mass of water inside.

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only bullship is your knowledge, at my previous location I
installed a $500 Bosch ng tankless, my bill went from 20 to no more
than 10$ in summer, that includes gas dryer and stove, my payback is 4
years, where I am now is Ng Tank and last summers gas bill is back to
no less than 22 with gas stove and dyer. Tank Ng are only near 60%
efficent even with an 82$ efficent burner.

On Apr 7, 7:11*pm, " wrote:
regular 40 gallon hot water tank BTU vary anywhere from 34,000 btu to
75,000 btu. the higher the BTU the better.

Because we ran out occasionally we went from a 34,000 BTU 40 gallon
tank to a 75,000 BTU 50 gallon tank. I wanted a 75 gallon tank but it
wouldnt fit the available space between toilet and furnace.

Tankless tends to be a hot topic here........ from inadquate heat, =
cool showers if you live in areas that freeze in the winter, no hot
water at all in a power failure, if the tankless uses line voltage to
operate, no hot water with valve just open a little, super expensive
install, needing new gas line and occasionally a new meter. teenagers
given unlimited hot water might live in the shower. expensive service,
tankless are complex and require occasional service, standby losses in
current tanks is actually low, and stanby losses help heat your home
in the winter, so most of the heat isnt really lost. life is full of
sytandby losses, tv, cable boxes clocks etc etc. anything that draws
power when not in use is a standby loss......

your old tank is probably full of sludge decreasing its hot water
ability.

a new tankless will cost a fortune.......... 3 to 4 times a standard
tank which is highly reliable.

so lets talk tanks

upgrade from your old 40 gallon probably 40,000 btu to a 75 or 80
gallon 75,000 btu will likely give you about 4 times or more your
current hot water capacity. and in its life probably never need
service

you double the gallon capacity and double the burners BTU rating,
roughly 4 times the hot water.

no more cold showers

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.

On Apr 7, 12:24*pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. *About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? *Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

Do you have water reducing shower heads and faucet strainers, Your
tank may not have the recovery or as I realy suspect, a waste of hot
water as in long showers and hw faucets run without concern. I would
not recommend a tankless with a large family that is not truely trying
to be conservative on water as it will likely cost more to heat with
tankless, Kids will do the 20 min shower. A 40 with faster recovery, a
bigger tank, will all work, so might education and conservation.

On Apr 7, 10:22*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:50:30 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years..

This is totally false. *According to the U.S. DOE, the standby losses
of a conventional electric water heater with an EF rating of 0.93 are
331 kWh a year. *At $0.10 per kWh, these losses amount to less than
$3.00 per month. *And if you live in an area where heating demands
dominate and the tank is located inside a conditioned space, your
actual out-of-pocket expense would be even less.

In addition, if you install a tankless water heater and it results in
excessive strain on the utility's distribution system or adversely
impacts power quality (e.g., flickering lights due to high transient
load), you could be held personally liable for the full cost of any
necessary transformer and line upgrades; a next door neighbour
complaining to the power company about "bad power" could very well
cost you several thousands of dollars.

http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Cheers,
Paul

Depending on your local rate it could be easily 80% more efficent,
mine was about 75% cheaper converting from electric tank to Ng
tankless. Then again some have cheap hydro and expensive fossile fuel,
and savings could be Zero. Each person has their own unique set of
costs, for some tankless is best, for some that would need large
tankless and major gas work tankless are not worth it.

.


Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........

On Apr 8, 10:03�am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 7, 10:22�pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:





On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:50:30 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

This is totally false. �According to the U.S. DOE, the standby losses
of a conventional electric water heater with an EF rating of 0.93 are
331 kWh a year. �At $0.10 per kWh, these losses amount to less than
$3.00 per month. �And if you live in an area where heating demands
dominate and the tank is located inside a conditioned space, your
actual out-of-pocket expense would be even less.

In addition, if you install a tankless water heater and it results in
excessive strain on the utility's distribution system or adversely
impacts power quality (e.g., flickering lights due to high transient
load), you could be held personally liable for the full cost of any
necessary transformer and line upgrades; a next door neighbour
complaining to the power company about "bad power" could very well
cost you several thousands of dollars.

http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Cheers,
Paul

Depending on your local rate it could be easily 80% more efficent,
mine was about 75% cheaper converting from electric tank to Ng
tankless. Then again some have cheap hydro and expensive fossile fuel,
and savings could be Zero. Each person has their own unique set of
costs, for some tankless is best, for some that would need large
tankless and major gas work tankless are not worth it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

electric almost always costs more than natural gas to heat water

BUT, can you get 140 - 160 degree water out of it?

I thought not. It doesn't matter if the junk mf's are FREE to run if you
can't get what you need out of them.

s


"ransley" wrote in message
...

The only bullship is your knowledge, at my previous location I
installed a $500 Bosch ng tankless, my bill went from 20 to no more
than 10$ in summer, that includes gas dryer and stove, my payback is 4
years, where I am now is Ng Tank and last summers gas bill is back to
no less than 22 with gas stove and dyer. Tank Ng are only near 60%
efficent even with an 82$ efficent burner.

Kind of like the boys with the high dollar K$N filters on their trucks.
..... They'll always tell you they run better when they know good and well
it made no difference whatsoever...


s


wrote in message
...

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 07:03:41 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 7, 10:22*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:50:30 -0400, "Bill"
wrote:

Tankless is the way to go.
Just ask yourself, do you keep your auto running in the driveway so it will
be warm when you get in it?

They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank.
That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.

This is totally false. *According to the U.S. DOE, the standby losses
of a conventional electric water heater with an EF rating of 0.93 are
331 kWh a year. *At $0.10 per kWh, these losses amount to less than
$3.00 per month. *And if you live in an area where heating demands
dominate and the tank is located inside a conditioned space, your
actual out-of-pocket expense would be even less.

In addition, if you install a tankless water heater and it results in
excessive strain on the utility's distribution system or adversely
impacts power quality (e.g., flickering lights due to high transient
load), you could be held personally liable for the full cost of any
necessary transformer and line upgrades; a next door neighbour
complaining to the power company about "bad power" could very well
cost you several thousands of dollars.

http://www.progress-energy.com/custs...s/tankless.asp

Cheers,
Paul

Depending on your local rate it could be easily 80% more efficent,
mine was about 75% cheaper converting from electric tank to Ng
tankless. Then again some have cheap hydro and expensive fossile fuel,
and savings could be Zero. Each person has their own unique set of
costs, for some tankless is best, for some that would need large
tankless and major gas work tankless are not worth it.

Hi Mark,

We're really speaking of two separate things: efficiency and
cost-effectiveness based upon fuel choice and my comments pertain to
the former. The poster claimed a "tankless is 80% more efficient than
an electric tank" and this statement is categorically false.

As noted above, the standby losses of an electric water heater with an
EF of 0.93 or better are less than 1 kWh/day; at $0.10 per kWh, less
than $3.00 per month and during the winter months the net
out-of-pocket expense would be lower if the tank is located inside a
conditioned space (effectively nil if the home is electrically heated
and potentially net positive if heated with oil now that fuel oil in
many parts of North America is more expensive than electric
resistance).

Cheers,
Paul

On Apr 8, 10:39*am, "S. Barker" wrote:
Kind of like the boys with the high dollar K$N filters on their trucks.
.... * They'll always tell you they run better when they know good and well
it made no difference whatsoever...

s

wrote in message

...

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........

I don't think that's fair. Ransley says he's actually bought one for
$500 and installed it himself relatively easy. And he's happy with
the results. I think his opinion is worth more than most here most
of whom don't have one and just sling mud. Especially those that
continue to spout misleading information, like "The heat loss from a
tank unit helps heat your home in the winter." It's been pointed out
repeatidly that much of the waste heat in a gas tank unit goes up the
flue. And the heat that escapes the sides of the tank only helps heat
the house if it happens to be in the living space, which isn't where
most are located. And then, in summer, the heat is still added to
the house and if you have AC as most do, then you're paying to remove
that heat. Yet, this same sad misinformation continues.

S. Barker wrote:
BUT, can you get 140 - 160 degree water out of it?

I thought not. It doesn't matter if the junk mf's are FREE to run if you
can't get what you need out of them.

s


"ransley" wrote in message
...

The only bullship is your knowledge, at my previous location I
installed a $500 Bosch ng tankless, my bill went from 20 to no more
than 10$ in summer, that includes gas dryer and stove, my payback is 4
years, where I am now is Ng Tank and last summers gas bill is back to
no less than 22 with gas stove and dyer. Tank Ng are only near 60%
efficent even with an 82$ efficent burner.


Out of curiosity what residential applications need those high water
temperatures?

On Apr 8, 10:37 am, "S. Barker" wrote:
BUT, can you get 140 - 160 degree water out of it?

I thought not. It doesn't matter if the junk mf's are FREE to run if you
can't get what you need out of them.

The Bosch units can be dialed up to 140 degrees. I realize that you
get more water at a given temperature when you start with hotter water
and mix in cold, but what do you need 160 degree water for?
Considering that most of the time you'll mix it down to 120 degrees
and the anti-scald showers won't let you go anywhere near 160, what's
the point of heating water just to cool it down? If your system is
undersized for the amount of hot water you need, cranking up the water
temperature is a backwards way of adjusting it.

R

On 2008-04-08, wrote:

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

I don't understand this criticism, we've been over this before. The
energy factor of typical gas tankless is 0.80 and the energy factor of
a typical gas tank is 0.60. The difference, 20% of the theoretical
heat value of the gas used, is the standby losses. Most of the
standby losses go up the central flue of a conventional gas tank water
heater, as there can't be any insulation between the flue and the hot
water.

Yours, Wayne

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:26:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I don't think that's fair. Ransley says he's actually bought one for
$500 and installed it himself relatively easy. And he's happy with
the results. I think his opinion is worth more than most here most
of whom don't have one and just sling mud. Especially those that
continue to spout misleading information, like "The heat loss from a
tank unit helps heat your home in the winter." It's been pointed out
repeatidly that much of the waste heat in a gas tank unit goes up the
flue. And the heat that escapes the sides of the tank only helps heat
the house if it happens to be in the living space, which isn't where
most are located. And then, in summer, the heat is still added to
the house and if you have AC as most do, then you're paying to remove
that heat. Yet, this same sad misinformation continues.

The OP has an electric water heater and electric units do not have
stack related losses. The only loss is through the tank wall and these
losses are less than 1 kWh per day if the tank has an EF of 0.93 or
better (the new minimum standard is 0.91).

Secondly, if the tank is located inside a conditioned space any heat
loss through the wall *will* offset a portion of the home's space
heating demand. If the home is electrically heated the net loss is
effectively zero during the heating season and for those who heat with
oil, the losses could result in a net positive gain now that
residential fuel oil is more expensive than electricity in many parts
of the country.

With respect to air conditioning, a central air unit with a SEER of 10
would eliminate 2.94 kWh of heat for every 1.0 kWh consumed (the ratio
is 3.8 kWh to 1 for a 13 SEER unit). Thus, the additional a/c burden
for a 10 SEER model if tank losses are 0.91 kWh/day would be less than
10 kWh/month.

Cheers,
Paul

dishwasher.

s


"George" wrote in message
. ..


Out of curiosity what residential applications need those high water
temperatures?

a. if you crank them up that high, you'll get no useable flow to speak of
b. i'd never have an antiscald shower valve
c. the hotter the water is to begin with, the longer it'll last mixed down.


steve


"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 10:37 am, "S. Barker" wrote:
BUT, can you get 140 - 160 degree water out of it?

I thought not. It doesn't matter if the junk mf's are FREE to run if you
can't get what you need out of them.

The Bosch units can be dialed up to 140 degrees. I realize that you
get more water at a given temperature when you start with hotter water
and mix in cold, but what do you need 160 degree water for?
Considering that most of the time you'll mix it down to 120 degrees
and the anti-scald showers won't let you go anywhere near 160, what's
the point of heating water just to cool it down? If your system is
undersized for the amount of hot water you need, cranking up the water
temperature is a backwards way of adjusting it.

R

On Apr 8, 11:57 am, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:26:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
I don't think that's fair. Ransley says he's actually bought one for
$500 and installed it himself relatively easy. And he's happy with
the results. I think his opinion is worth more than most here most
of whom don't have one and just sling mud. Especially those that
continue to spout misleading information, like "The heat loss from a
tank unit helps heat your home in the winter." It's been pointed out
repeatidly that much of the waste heat in a gas tank unit goes up the
flue. And the heat that escapes the sides of the tank only helps heat
the house if it happens to be in the living space, which isn't where
most are located. And then, in summer, the heat is still added to
the house and if you have AC as most do, then you're paying to remove
that heat. Yet, this same sad misinformation continues.

The OP has an electric water heater and electric units do not have
stack related losses. The only loss is through the tank wall and these
losses are less than 1 kWh per day if the tank has an EF of 0.93 or
better (the new minimum standard is 0.91).

No he doesn't. OP wrote: "Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is
failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok."

Secondly, if the tank is located inside a conditioned space any heat
loss through the wall *will* offset a portion of the home's space
heating demand. If the home is electrically heated the net loss is
effectively zero during the heating season and for those who heat with
oil, the losses could result in a net positive gain now that
residential fuel oil is more expensive than electricity in many parts
of the country.

Most of the water heat inefficiency goes up the flue, so do most of
the dollars. It's an odd argument to state that putting a heater
(waste heat from the water heater) in a location that you don't need
it, is a smart move. Maybe we should all go back to the huge ass
furnaces under the house with one central floor grate to heat the
home. Then none of the inefficiency is lost...unfortunately most of
the comfort is.

R