said something like:
On Apr 8, 7:27?am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
mike said something like:

On Apr 7, 12:34 pm, "Bill" wrote:

...[snip]...

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're the one who thought that standard water heaters run
continuously and that tankless are 80% more efficient than tanks!
SNORT.

Maybe you should listen to someone besides your tankless salesman:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../02/08/ST20080...

But if you want spend dollars to chase pennies, more power to ya.

I think Bill was actually agreeing with that article, but that
article pretty much sells me on the tanks. ?Anyone here debunk that
article at all?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whats to debunk the savings will take longer than the life of the
heater......

please explain how this is a advantage?

I don't believe it is an advantage. Are you asking for me to explain? I
need not---I agree with the article.

You may have misread both Bill and I.

On Apr 8, 3:43 pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
said something like:



On Apr 8, 7:27?am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
mike said something like:

On Apr 7, 12:34 pm, "Bill" wrote:

...[snip]...

When tankless salesmen feel the need to trot out BS like that, it
makes me distrust any further "data" they want to push.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're the one who thought that standard water heaters run
continuously and that tankless are 80% more efficient than tanks!
SNORT.

Maybe you should listen to someone besides your tankless salesman:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../02/08/ST20080...

But if you want spend dollars to chase pennies, more power to ya.

I think Bill was actually agreeing with that article, but that
article pretty much sells me on the tanks. ?Anyone here debunk that
article at all?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whats to debunk the savings will take longer than the life of the
heater......

please explain how this is a advantage?

I don't believe it is an advantage. Are you asking for me to explain? I
need not---I agree with the article.

You may have misread both Bill and I.

He seems to be in one of 'those' moods.

http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/against.wav

Whatever It Is, I'm Against It

I don't know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway --
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I'm against it.

Your proposition may be good
But let's have one thing understood --
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it.

I'm opposed to it --
On general principles I'm opposed to it!

Chorus: He's opposed to it!
In fact, in word, in deed,
He's opposed to it!

For months before my son was born,
I used to yell from night till morn,
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
And I've kept yelling since I first commenced it,
I'm against it!

By Harry Ruby (music) and Bert Kalmar (lyrics)
Performed by Groucho Marx in "Horse Feathers" (1932)

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 3:43 pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
said something like:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whats to debunk the savings will take longer than the life of the
heater......

please explain how this is a advantage?

I don't believe it is an advantage. Are you asking for me to explain? I
need not---I agree with the article.

You may have misread both Bill and I.

He seems to be in one of 'those' moods.

http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/against.wav

Whatever It Is, I'm Against It

Or, maybe he's just wrong... http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q-5d5IfdYK4

now THAT's funny. I don't care who you are. LMMFAO!!

s


"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in message
...

Or, maybe he's just wrong... http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q-5d5IfdYK4

"Thomas G. Marshall" wrote

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

Should be 15 but if it's hard worked, perhaps 10 is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

40G is ok. Not optimal for long showers if there are several and need to
take them within 20 mins of each other (night time shower with several
kids).

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

Yup. If you can, go 50/60G. More is overkill.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

Yes though it will let all 4 shower within minutes of each other.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

Not with a mere 10-20G difference

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

Has more to do with construction of your place. If it has to fit in a
cabinet for example, that cabinet may not be sized safely to hold a larger
unit. There may be distance from the walls for example involved.

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

Sorry, cant answer. If it helps though I have a 40G GE 'Smart Saver' gas
hot water heater. I do have to be a bit careful to not take a shower or
bath right after running the dishwasher or another's shower. 20 mins seems
to work for the wait. It's 14 years old and i seem to recall the wait 10
years ago was about 10 mins so we may be getting near replacement time.
IT's in the garage so there is no space problem if we get a bigger one.

On Apr 8, 11:57*am, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:26:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
I don't think that's fair. * Ransley says he's actually bought one for
$500 and installed it himself relatively easy. *And he's happy with
the results. * I think his opinion is worth more than most here most
of whom don't have one and just sling mud. * *Especially those that
continue to spout misleading information, like "The heat loss from a
tank unit helps heat your home in the winter." * It's been pointed out
repeatidly that much of the waste heat in a gas tank unit goes up the
flue. *And the heat that escapes the sides of the tank only helps heat
the house if it happens to be in the living space, which isn't where
most are located. * * And then, in summer, the heat is still added to
the house and if you have AC as most do, then you're paying to remove
that heat. * *Yet, this same sad misinformation continues.

The OP has an electric water heater and electric units do not have
stack related losses. The only loss is through the tank wall and these
losses are less than 1 kWh per day if the tank has an EF of 0.93 or
better (the new minimum standard is 0.91).

Yes, but that has nothing to do with much of the mis-information and
slams directed against tankless units. All I'm saying is Ransley
actually has one, paid $500 for it, installed it without too much
effort and says it works well for him. That's some actual data,
instead of speculation.

Also, the vast majority of tankless are not going to be compared to
electric water heaters, but instead to gas ones. That's because
almost everywhere, it's cheaper to heat water with gas than electric.
So, someone looking for a water heater with gas available, isn't going
to be looking at electric and then you do have the heat loss via flue.



Secondly, if the tank is located inside a conditioned space any heat
loss through the wall *will* offset a portion of the home's space
heating demand. *If the home is electrically heated the net loss is
effectively zero during the heating season and for those who heat with
oil, the losses could result in a net positive gain now that
residential fuel oil is more expensive than electricity in many parts
of the country.

With respect to air conditioning, a central air unit with a SEER of 10
would eliminate 2.94 kWh of heat for every 1.0 kWh consumed (the ratio
is 3.8 kWh to 1 for a 13 SEER unit). *Thus, the additional a/c burden
for a 10 SEER model if tank losses are 0.91 kWh/day would be less than
10 kWh/month.

Cheers,
Paul

Yes, that's true, but as I already pointed out:


1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the winter
benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water heater is
located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

2 - Most water heaters are not located in a conditioned space.

3 - In the grand scheme of things, this whole heat loss benefit is a
nit.

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the winter
benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water heater is
located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

2 - Most water heaters are not located in a conditioned space.

3 - In the grand scheme of things, this whole heat loss benefit is a
nit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most water heaters are in basements, heat rises, so standby losses
help heat your home. or in a closet on a living floor, again standby
loss heats its suroundings, thats where you live.

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

since the cost beween a regular tank and a tankless can easily be a
grand, that $ could be spent for added insulation and weatherstripping

On Apr 8, 7:25 pm, " wrote:
1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the winter
benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water heater is
located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Doing otherwise would be inconvenient for their argument.

2 - Most water heaters are not located in a conditioned space.

Well, it's semi-conditioned if you're in a heating climate and it's
winter.

3 - In the grand scheme of things, this whole heat loss benefit is a
nit.

It's not a nit, it's a distraction. It's also a semi-effective
distraction as only some of the heat radiates into the space and a
larger part goes up the chimney. I guess it would be akin to a
bumpkin earning thousands a month with their new found fame and
fortune and being thrilled, when they should be earning far more if
their business manager wasn't robbing them blind. It's good, but it
could be a lot better.

most water heaters are in basements, heat rises, so standby losses
help heat your home. or in a closet on a living floor, again standby
loss heats its suroundings, thats where you live.

Heat doesn't rise, hot air does. As Bud Abbott would say, "What's
holding you down?" =:O
Heat radiates and basement walls are a notorious heat sink in cold
climates. I think that heat should be applied in the proper amount
where it's needed, and not in a basement with hopes that it will find
its way to the correct location.

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

You mean like this one?
http://www.hpac.com/Issue/Article/27...o****er_System
An excerpt: "Energy efficiency is another problem with a typical
direct-fired water heater. A standard water heater is rated at about
84-percent steady state efficiency. That means that while the fire is
on, 84 percent of the heat from the fire enters the tank, while 16
percent of the heat goes up the chimney. That sounds pretty good, but
a water heater is not a steady state device: the fire turns on and
off. While the heater is off heat is still going up the chimney.

The annual fuel utilization efficiency (AFUE) rating of a typical
water heater is much lower, in the range of 70 percent for a 40-gal.
heater and dropping to 51 percent for a 75-gal. heater. An AFUE of 51
percent means that 51 percent of the heat in the fuel leaves the
heater by going out the hot water pipe. Except for a little heat lost
through the jacket of the heater, the rest goes up the chimney. So
while about 16 percent of the heat goes up the chimney while the fire
is burning, about another 15 to 35 percent, called "standby loss" goes
out the chimney while the fire is not burning."

Some of the Tagaki tankless heaters have EFs in the low 90s...

since the cost beween a regular tank and a tankless can easily be a
grand, that $ could be spent for added insulation and weatherstripping

There's no doubt that there are other ways to save energy and that
your average house could benefit, but we're discussing the relative
merits of tank v. tankless and not where someone should spend their
money. That decision is best left to the individual, no?

The thing that kills me is that the $300 federal tax credit for high
EF water heaters just expired in December - good timing! I wonder how
long it will be until they come up with some new credit program?

R

On 2008-04-08, wrote:

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

Take a look at http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm,
in particular the life-cycle costs comparison. This shows a typical
gas tank water heater has an energy factor of 0.60, and a typical gas
tankless has an energy factor of 0.80. The difference of 20%
represents the standby losses. Prior computations suggest that of
those standby losses, 7% represents the loss through the tank
insulation, and 13% represents the loss through the gas flue.

Cheers, Wayne

On Apr 8, 11:09 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
There's only one way to do that - throw money at it. The
standard water heater tank doesn't have a setback or vacation setting,

Been a long long long long time since you've bought or even looked at a
water heater, I'd say

Reading what I wrote, I'm wondering what I wrote, and am overwrought
by that writing. How wrong my writing was.

I can only assume temporary insanity, or possession by demons.

R

There's only one way to do that - throw money at it. The
standard water heater tank doesn't have a setback or vacation setting,

Been a long long long long time since you've bought or even looked at a
water heater, I'd say

"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01...

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.





If the users of said hot water are old enough, yet not too old to move out
of the way quickly, just bump the temp setting up higher. Adjustment to
less hot water for comfort should save some hot water for other purposes.
Extremely lengthy showers are always a concern. They may be longer as a
result, with same lack of hot water. The predominant male is in order to
fix that lack of discipline.
--
Dave

Hi everyone.

I'd like to try and elevate the tankless vs. tank discussion a little
bit. Let me just say however, kudos for actually bringing a citation into
the conversation (WP article). Unfortunately the cited article is
severely flawed. It attempts to generalize from anecdotal evidence, and
neglects to mention a key benefit of tankless systems: they have an
expected life time of OVER 20 YEARS (citation below).

The US department of energy discusses the pros and cons of the system, and
I hope we can all agree that they are a reasonably reliable and unbiased
source.

Check out:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/...ing/index.cfm/
mytopic=12820

I recommend reading the whole page. It's brief and highly informative.
QUOTED from the DOE website:

-Most tankless water heaters have a life expectancy of more than 20
years. They also have easily replaceable parts that extend their
life by many more years. In contrast, storage water heaters last 10€“15
years.

-[tankless water heaters] don't produce the standby energy losses
associated with storage water heaters, which can save you money.

Whether or not a tankless system is good for your requires a little
thought. If you have a problem with instantaneous flow (e.g. you want to
be able to run your washer, dishwasher, and have everyone take a shower
simultaneously), a tankless system to meet your needs will likely be
impractical. Your problem seems to be more length periods of continuous
use, which would indicate that you could seriously benefit from a tankless
system.

If you really need water 140F, they probably aren't a good solution for
you. The vast majority of homeowners however do not.

If all you care about is the dollars and cents of it, the solution is to
get a couple of quotes from reliable contractors, look at your personal
energy rates, and do the math. It's pretty easy math, but if you have
trouble with it, I'll be glad to help.

If you care about energy conservation, then you can rest assured that you
will be doing a good thing for the environment, you won't lose any money
in the long run, and you might even profit from it. The latter case seems
to be the most likely, in my analysis.

GS
www.glenstark.net

On Apr 7, 10:24*am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. *About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? *Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.


I think like other people posted in this group, a 60 or 80 would
probably be your best bet. I mean, why make this complicated? All you
want is a little more hot water. In.. out... done.


Adam
Protect our national fresh water supply with just a click! - The
National Water Conservatory
http://waterforever.blogspot.com/

On Apr 9, 7:51�am, wrote:
On Apr 7, 10:24�am, "Thomas G. Marshall"





. com wrote:
Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. �About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they all
complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and kids)..

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? �Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.

I think like other people posted in this group, a 60 or 80 would
probably be your best bet. I mean, why make this complicated? All you
want is a little more hot water. In.. out... done.

Adam
Protect our national fresh water supply with just a click! - The
National Water Conservatoryhttp://waterforever.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yeah and since i have a high BTU 50 gallon tank, and personal
experience says little effect on gas bill.........

you can check the energy guide labels to see what i mean.....

On Apr 9, 6:25 am, glen stark wrote:
Hi everyone.

I'd like to try and elevate the tankless vs. tank discussion a little
bit. Let me just say however, kudos for actually bringing a citation into
the conversation (WP article). Unfortunately the cited article is
severely flawed. It attempts to generalize from anecdotal evidence, and
neglects to mention a key benefit of tankless systems: they have an
expected life time of OVER 20 YEARS (citation below).


http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/...0mytopic=12820
note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

For homes that use 41 gallons or less of hot water daily, demand water
heaters can be 24%-34% more energy efficient than conventional storage
tank water heaters. They can be 8%-14% more energy efficient for homes
that use a lot of hot water--around 86 gallons per day. You can achieve
even greater energy savings of 27%-50% if you install a demand water
heater at each hot water outlet.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/...ting/index.cfm...

also note this word of warning

For example, taking a shower and running the dishwasher at the same
time can stretch a demand water heater to its limit. To overcome this
problem, you can install two or more demand water heaters, connected
in parallel for simultaneous demands of hot water. You can also
install separate demand water heaters for appliances--such as a clothes
washer or dishwater--that use a lot of hot water in your home.

then 2 showers and a dishwasher at same time will require multiple
tankless?

it also points out that a tankless with a pilot light can wipe out any
savings.....

wonder if the posters here who say their tankless works in a power
failure have tankless with pilot light? if so they arent saving
anything......

given the tankless high BTU and the flue gas requirements wonder how
many could afford multiple tankless around their home????????

"Dioclese" NONE wrote in message
m...
"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote in message
news:VMsKj.891$NM.653@trnddc01...

Ok, our 40 gal gas water heater is failing. About 10 years old, which I
hear is ok.

But every time I talk to someone about their 40 gal water heater, they
all complain that they run out of hot water (comparable size homes and
kids).

Bur our builder (and all builder's we spoke to when looking to build)
*insist* that 40 gallons is enough.

But we were always worried about running the wash or dishwasher before
showering, or two long showers would result in the 2nd losing water.
Complete with those water saving disks etc.

1. Is 80 gallons overkill? Perhaps I'm reacting viscerally.

2. Am I going to notice a large gas usage increase?

3. Are there rules in place limiting the water tank sizes?

4. Are there any particular brands to look for or stay away from?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions.





If the users of said hot water are old enough, yet not too old to move out
of the way quickly, just bump the temp setting up higher. Adjustment to
less hot water for comfort should save some hot water for other purposes.
Extremely lengthy showers are always a concern. They may be longer as a
result, with same lack of hot water. The predominant male is in order to
fix that lack of discipline.
--
Dave

The simple solution: let the kids shower last. Mom and Dad go first and
take long long showers to use up all the hot water and let the kids learn
that waiting is the result of their taking long showers and being
inconsiderate of others. Either that, or they will take colder shorter
showers until they catch on. If they ever do.

Steve

Most dishwashers use the dryer element to further heat up the incoming water
anyway. Dishwasher actually use much less water than most people realize.

However making the hot water hotter does mean you use less water from the
heated line side in showers and sinks. It will make the difference between
occasionally running out of hot water to rarely running out. I set my heater
higher than the recommended "mark" on the temp dial specifically to get more
shower time out of one tank full of hot water. We have pressure balancing
shower valves so there isn't the danger of full hot water in the shower if
someone flushes a toilet.

When we had our tank replaced a couple of years ago I had to specifically
decline a safety device that would add cold water to the hot water leaving
the tank if it detected it was higher than scalding temp. Apparently it is
now code for new construction around here. In my mind I can't quite figure
out if cooling "very" hot water to "fairly" hot water in the hot water line
rather than at the shower fixture would reduce amount of running time for
showers from one full tank of hot water. I'm thinking it would act the same
as lowering the tank temperature so it would reduce the available run time.

Has anyone installed a hot water recirculator? The theory is that you keep
the water in the hot water line hot so that you do not require any run time
to get your shower or sink up to temperature.

Jeff


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
dishwasher.

s


"George" wrote in message
. ..


Out of curiosity what residential applications need those high water
temperatures?

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:
.







Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post

On Apr 8, 9:37*am, "S. Barker" wrote:
BUT, can you get 140 - 160 degree water out of it?

I thought not. *It doesn't matter if the junk mf's are FREE to run if you
can't get what you need out of them.

s

"ransley" wrote in message

...

The only bullship is your knowledge, at my previous location I
installed a $500 Bosch ng tankless, my bill went from 20 to no more
than 10$ in summer, that includes gas dryer and stove, my payback is 4
years, where I am now is Ng Tank and last summers gas bill is back to
no less than 22 with gas stove and dyer. Tank Ng are only near 60%
efficent even with an 82$ efficent burner.

Only and idiot would want 140-160f, do you have yours to 140? I bet not

On Apr 8, 8:10*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-04-08, wrote:

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

Take a look at http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm,
in particular the life-cycle costs comparison. *This shows a typical
gas tank water heater has an energy factor of 0.60, and a typical gas
tankless has an energy factor of 0.80. *The difference of 20%
represents the standby losses. *Prior computations suggest that of
those standby losses, 7% represents the loss through the tank
insulation, and 13% represents the loss through the gas flue.

Cheers, Wayne

Hey Hallerb, here it is, read and learn.

On Apr 8, 6:25*pm, " wrote:
1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the winter
benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water heater is
located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

2 - Most water heaters are not located in a conditioned space.

3 - In the grand scheme of things, this whole heat loss benefit is a
nit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most water heaters are in basements, heat rises, so standby losses
help heat your home. or in a closet on a living floor, again standby
loss heats its suroundings, thats where you live.

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

since the cost beween a regular tank and a tankless can easily be a
grand, that $ could be spent for added insulation and weatherstripping

Gee mine was 500 with TAX, what a missinformed negative puts you are.

On Apr 9, 9:52�am, "Jeff" wrote:
Most dishwashers use the dryer element to further heat up the incoming water
anyway. �Dishwasher actually use much less water than most people realize.

However making the hot water hotter does mean you use less water from the
heated line side in showers and sinks. It will make the difference between
occasionally running out of hot water to rarely running out. I set my heater
higher than the recommended "mark" on the temp dial specifically to get more
shower time out of one tank full of hot water. We have pressure balancing
shower valves so there isn't the danger of full hot water in the shower if
someone flushes a toilet.

When we had our tank replaced a couple of years ago I had to specifically
decline a safety device that would add cold water to the hot water leaving
the tank if it detected it was higher than scalding temp. Apparently it is
now code for new construction around here. �In my mind I can't quite figure
out if cooling "very" hot water to "fairly" hot water in the hot water line
rather than at the shower fixture would reduce amount of running time for
showers from one full tank of hot water. I'm thinking it would act the same
as lowering the tank temperature so it would reduce the available run time..

Has anyone installed a hot water recirculator? The theory is that you keep
the water in the hot water line hot so that you do not require any run time
to get your shower or sink up to temperature.



- Show quoted text -

the recurircuate lines saves water but wastes energy unless you turn
it on specifically before using a fixture.......

the tempering valves prevent scalds, but keeping a tank hotter
increases standby losses, and leads to shorter lank life from the
thermal shock of very hot water and very cold water mixing.

there are no free lunches, gain a little here lose a little
there.........

i prefer a larger tank, with higher BTU, and a lower temperature so no
one can get scalded.........

your mileage may vary......

tankless owners see more wasted water since the tankless must detect
flow and turn on burners before hot water arrives

On Apr 9, 10:25�am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 8, 8:10�pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2008-04-08, wrote:

again please post a link that says 20% go up the chimney........
please a link....... please........ all i see is someone stating it
must be....

Take a look at http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm,
in particular the life-cycle costs comparison. �This shows a typical
gas tank water heater has an energy factor of 0.60, and a typical gas
tankless has an energy factor of 0.80. �The difference of 20%
represents the standby losses. �Prior computations suggest that of
those standby losses, 7% represents the loss through the tank
insulation, and 13% represents the loss through the gas flue.

Cheers, Wayne

Hey Hallerb, here it is, read and learn.

look all along you have been posting 20% up flue but your own link
says.......

", 7% represents the loss through the tank
insulation, and 13% represents the loss through the gas flue.
"

since stanby helps heat your home in the winter, only 13% is actually
lost.

does your tankless have a pilot, if so the government says your saving
nothing........ this is highly likely since you stated your tankless
works in a power failure

if your home uses a lot of water the standby time is less, and your
tankless saves little, according to the government link here

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:





.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......

On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:





On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.

On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:





On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????

�I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,


so how many tankless did you install? you said them............

them is plural..........

but quote 500 bucks, which is suspiciously low.

please post which tankless you installed for 500 bucks each.

Yes, i do. Would i make a point out of it if i didn't do it?

s


"ransley" wrote in message
...

Only and idiot would want 140-160f, do you have yours to 140? I bet not

On Apr 9, 9:26Â*am, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 9:52�am, "Jeff" wrote:





Most dishwashers use the dryer element to further heat up the incoming water
anyway. �Dishwasher actually use much less water than most people realize.

However making the hot water hotter does mean you use less water from the
heated line side in showers and sinks. It will make the difference between
occasionally running out of hot water to rarely running out. I set my heater
higher than the recommended "mark" on the temp dial specifically to get more
shower time out of one tank full of hot water. We have pressure balancing
shower valves so there isn't the danger of full hot water in the shower if
someone flushes a toilet.

When we had our tank replaced a couple of years ago I had to specifically
decline a safety device that would add cold water to the hot water leaving
the tank if it detected it was higher than scalding temp. Apparently it is
now code for new construction around here. �In my mind I can't quite figure
out if cooling "very" hot water to "fairly" hot water in the hot water line
rather than at the shower fixture would reduce amount of running time for
showers from one full tank of hot water. I'm thinking it would act the same
as lowering the tank temperature so it would reduce the available run time.

Has anyone installed a hot water recirculator? The theory is that you keep
the water in the hot water line hot so that you do not require any run time
to get your shower or sink up to temperature.

- Show quoted text -

the recurircuate lines saves water but wastes energy unless you turn
it on specifically before using a fixture.......

the tempering valves prevent scalds, but keeping a tank hotter
increases standby losses, and leads to shorter lank life from the
thermal shock of very hot water and very cold water mixing.

there are no free lunches, gain a little here lose a little
there.........

i prefer a larger tank, with higher BTU, and a lower temperature so no
one can get scalded.........

your mileage may vary......

tankless owners see more wasted water since the tankless must detect
flow and turn on burners before hot water arrives- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thats bull **** in relavance to consumption, mine triggers in 1-2
seconds with maybe 1/2 gallon detection. How about tankless can last
30 years and cut your gas bill in half, Or tankless can have a remote
theremostat in your shower so you dont waste money by heating water
hotter than you need, which is 102 for me. Or as you say" Tanks heat
your home" great idea when AC is running, Or the truth that tanks are
really near 60% efficent. Look at a Takagi condensing TK1 its maybe
96% on propane with the SAME energy factor as its efficency rating.
Now can you answer why tankless Energy Factor ratings are about the
same as the efficency of the burner, because Tanks waste freakin
energy up the chimney.

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

note it appears in homes that use more water, the typical 2 adults and
2 teenagers savings are less, probably because the standard tank
spends more time heating water and less time standing by. this is a
new wrinkle on the tank vs tankless discussion

Actually, it doesn't say the savings are less, it says the efficiency
improvement is less. Standby losses are basically independent of
usage. The greater the usage, the smaller the fraction of total costs
attributable to standby losses.

So if you are trying to calculate a payback period, and if the
incremental efficiency of the tank and tankless are the same, then
usage doesn't matter. All you need to do is figure out how much more
expensive the tankless is, and how your savings from standby losses
are.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

then 2 showers and a dishwasher at same time will require multiple
tankless?

No, but it may require a larger, more expensive unit than 1 shower and
a dishwasher at the same time. Personally I don't think dishwashers
are a big issue, it's no problem to defer dishwasher/clothes washer
use until the showering is done.

it also points out that a tankless with a pilot light can wipe out any
savings.....

This shows the article is somewhat out of date. Tankless heaters with
pilot lights are pretty old technology.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2008-04-09, Jeff wrote:

When we had our tank replaced a couple of years ago I had to specifically
decline a safety device that would add cold water to the hot water leaving
the tank if it detected it was higher than scalding temp. Apparently it is
now code for new construction around here. In my mind I can't quite figure
out if cooling "very" hot water to "fairly" hot water in the hot water line
rather than at the shower fixture would reduce amount of running time for
showers from one full tank of hot water. I'm thinking it would act the same
as lowering the tank temperature so it would reduce the available run time.

No, it would act the same as mixing down the "very" hot water at the
shower like you do now. It doesn't matter where you do the mixing--by
raising the tank temperature you are still increased the amount of
heat stored in the tank.

Wayne

On 2008-04-09, wrote:

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

First, I am the source of the 13% up the chimney number. That is just
a rough estimate based on the total 20% standby losses of a gas tank
(gas tankless EF 0.80 - gas tank EF 0.60) compared to the 7% standby
losses of an efficient electric heater (0.98 EF of an electric
tankless - 0.91 EF of an electric tank). The difference is
attributable to the flue on a conventional gas tank.

But the 20% standby losses is the more important figure. The losses
through the tank periphery are still losses--they can only be
considered otherwise if the tank is in conditioned space and you are
in a heating-only climate.

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????

No, there's maybe only one model on the market today with a pilot
light, out of tens of models.

Wayne

On Apr 9, 11:14 am, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-04-09, wrote:

then 2 showers and a dishwasher at same time will require multiple
tankless?

No, but it may require a larger, more expensive unit than 1 shower and
a dishwasher at the same time. Personally I don't think dishwashers
are a big issue, it's no problem to defer dishwasher/clothes washer
use until the showering is done.

Particularly now that washing machines are coming equipped with
delayed start options.

Hey Haller, how come you're ignoring the link and quote I posted from
the engineering trade journal about standby loss? Trade journals are
rarely run by wacky *******s that print/post bad information. The
author is an interesting guy: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200..._talk_sullivan

R

"ransley" wrote

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the winter
benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water heater is
located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Actually I didnt mention that but I'll add I 'seem' to get a *small* benefit
there. It isnt much but in the garage, which is cold in winter, a small
amount of heat is added by it. Being in the garage, it's effect on the AC
of the house in summer is negligible.

Mine is nearing end of life cycle so I'm reading the discussion carefully
and looking at replacement units. Newer ones are much better than my old
one.

I note several tank types around 400$ or less which would effectively
replace the existing unit with same style but more efficient, and lots of
tankless systems.

Running through the web page another posted, I seem to be the 'break even'
on gas price to run here with a slight edge to a tank type. The only real
difference seems to be how long the units last? That and a slight residual
heat generated to the garage which in winter for me, is a beneficial but
minor 'nice' towards the tank type.

"ransley" wrote

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the
winter benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water
heater is located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Hi Mark,

The impact of standby loss with respect to added a/c demand is
generally very modest for three reasons:

1) with the exception of some of the southern most states, heating
degree days exceed those of cooling throughout most of North America,
in some cases by a factor of ten or more (e.g., Minneapolis MN).
Pittsburgh PA, a mid-eastern seaboard city, has 5,968 HDD and 654 CDD.
Even in San Diego CA, heating demands exceed those of cooling, i.e.,
1,256 HDD versus 984 CDD;

2) generally speaking, water heaters are located inside conditioned
spaces in colder regions due to the risk of freeze damage whereas they
are typically placed in non-conditioned spaces (e.g., attached
garages) in warmer climates -- located outside the home's thermal
envelope, there would be no impact on cooling demand;

3) for every kWh used, an air conditioner will remove three or more
kWh of heat. A 10 SEER air conditioner will purge 2.93 kWh of heat
for every one kWh consumed and a 13 SEER air conditioner (the current
minimum standard) will eliminate 3.8 kWh of heat. Thus, each kWh of
standby tank loss translates to 0.34 kWh of cooling demand at 10 SEER
and 0.26 kWh at 13 SEER.

Taken together, it's pretty clear the benefits in terms of heat gain
far outweigh any potential loss with respect to added cooling demand.

Cheers,
Paul

On Apr 9, 1:19*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
"ransley" wrote

1 - At least one regular poster here continually mentions the
winter benefit of heat loss without regard to where the water
heater is located and totally ignores the AC impact in the summer.

Hi Mark,

The impact of standby loss with respect to added a/c demand is
generally very modest for three reasons:

*1) with the exception of some of the southern most states, heating
degree days exceed those of cooling throughout most of North America,
in some cases by a factor of ten or more (e.g., Minneapolis MN).
Pittsburgh PA, a mid-eastern seaboard city, has 5,968 HDD and 654 CDD.
Even in San Diego CA, heating demands exceed those of cooling, i.e.,
1,256 HDD versus 984 CDD;

*2) *generally speaking, water heaters are located inside conditioned
spaces in colder regions due to the risk of freeze damage whereas they
are typically placed in non-conditioned spaces (e.g., attached
garages) in warmer climates -- located outside the home's thermal
envelope, there would be no impact on cooling demand;

*3) for every kWh used, an air conditioner will remove three or more
kWh of heat. *A 10 SEER air conditioner will purge 2.93 kWh of heat
for every one kWh consumed and a 13 SEER air conditioner (the current
minimum standard) will eliminate 3.8 kWh of heat. *Thus, each kWh of
standby tank loss translates to 0.34 kWh of cooling demand at 10 SEER
and 0.26 kWh at 13 SEER.

Taken together, it's pretty clear the benefits in terms of heat gain
far outweigh any potential loss with respect to added cooling demand.

Cheers,
Paul

Hi paul, I really dont see much of either heat gain winter or summer,
Im just arguing against misinformed oposition. I see a flue going up
the uninsulated part of the tank going outdoors. I guess im a little
****ed at negatives thrown at tankless by people that never owned one,
and post wrong information. I own one, I can see on my 9$ summer gas
bill, I see a short payback, and I cook all food on a gas stove and
have a gas dryer. Tank Energy Factor is what nobody wants to
aknowlegde. Energy Factor for Tanks are about 52-60, and it simply
means, in fact, if your tank is a 60 E.F., $0.40 of every dollar you
pay to heat water is wasted. Tankless EF ratings are near Total
efficencies, Tankless EF ratings are from 82-95 [95 for a condensing
Takagi] We have all these folks here who put down tankless with bogus,
stupid, bad, information. Granted tankless are not for all, but they
are designed to last 30 years since the coil is thick copper pipe,
they save money, they have drawbacks you must learn to live with, but
I like saving money and not paying utilitie companies. I did so well
with a 110 yr old house, lowering utilities from maybe 1500 a year to
550 that the gas company came out to see how was I stealing gas. I was
told by Nipsco my house is the most efficent they have seen. I heat
1800sq for no more than $105 at max -14f lows. Tankless can cost alot
more, but can cost the same, last longer, and save enough to pay you
back, very quickly. Quickly, and that is at todays Ng gas prices, with
oil over 100 a barrel, it`s going to rise real dam fast. Your payback
will be sooner with every Ng price increase, and last I read, new NG
field are not being opened from NIMBY bs, consumption is outpacing
production, that`s why LNG dockyards are being built, so we can IMPORT
gas on tankers, even though we have it in the ground. We have no
energy policy, we have no education. Even England mandates only
Condensing heating units, and England is an Exporter of energy. We are
an Importer. Dam I should run for President and give America an
Energy agenda.

On Apr 9, 9:49Â*am, " wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:44Â*am, ransley wrote:





On Apr 9, 9:35Â*am, " wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18Â*am, ransley wrote:

On Apr 8, 9:30Â*am, " wrote:

.

Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise
offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my
unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.

�Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a
generator for my home for heat.

It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for
you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and
cheap, my meter is original.

Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year.

20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to
anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings

I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year
payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money

Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the
burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom,
its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and
its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you said above

"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed
every year"

then talk of pouring lime away thru yours

"tankless dont do that, and Â*its easy to pour lime away through mine.
""

frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is
way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which
isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.

plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but
refuse to supply a link to verify that

people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to
convince themselves it was a good move........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two valves I open with spigots, no taking apart anything to
flush.

Â*Look Hallerb Energy Factor is a rating, research it , it was posted
here on all tanks made I did not post it, learn to Google and attempt
to disprove me, you cant, can you. Learn then post- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you specifically said tankless require no service.......... yet you
installed service valves and must clean crud from the heat exchanger.

i buy a new tank, install and forget about it till it leaks in about
10 years, well i may wipe dust off the cover occasionally.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Â*I have them installed, I never flushed it, it doesnt need it yet,
with 9$ total NG bill in summer, including gas dryer and gas stove I
know its not limed up yet. BUT IT IS a fact tanks scale, and loose up
to 3 % effeciency every year to scale. It is also a fact my Ng bill is
50% more where I am now with a tank, tankless worked for me to cut my
bill.

Â*Here is something else to **** you off, tankless are rated for 30 yr
life, Tanks are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

show me a 30 year link, longest tankless warranty is 10 years.........

show me a link to 3% a year to scale buildup..........

the last link you posted in my response to your claim 20% went up
chimney said 13 % up chimney.

so more links please to prove you dont know whats up

DOES YOUR TANKLESS HAVE A PILOT LIGHT???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Im not showing you anything, its there in print, The only ignorant
one Is you Hallerb. Learn to Google and post fact.

Tankless coil is just thick Copper pipe, What does copper piping
last, 50 Years ? 60? 80? go figure Mr Hallerb. 30 year life is a
design and is published.

Scale in tank, is there. I took out a 20 yr old tank with 13"
THIRTEEN inches of scale, yes so the burner is heating Scale. The
facts are there. there is something called Google you can search to
your hearts desire to learn Facts, not the BS you keep ramping about.
You are the one who is uninformed or to dam ignorant to keep posting
BS ,

No my tankless has battery ignition, pilotless, works without AC.
Batteries last 2 years. dual D cell.

Fact I save 12$ a month with tankless, or $144 a year. In 5 years it
will be I bet 288 is the price. My 117000 Btu Bosch cost 500 with tax,
and maybe 200 install, My parents 40gal NG tank cost the same , But I
am saving and Hallerb you aint, so wake up or shut up your insanity.