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#1
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. He is spraying on vertical surfaces. There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option. Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent? Thanks. |
#2
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 9, 9:09?am, wrote:
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors..... Before you think about getting one of these, read these articles. http://www.allergyclean.com/article-...dknowozone.htm http://healthandenergy.com/ozone_damages_health.htm http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm Regards |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear shazl...:
On Apr 9, 6:09 am, wrote: Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. Who desexed him? It may have been the civic-minded thing to do, but did he go voluntarily? Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent? If the cat were telling you what it thinks of being desexed, making it breathe ozone until dead might cure the problem. As an occasional area-wide treatment of unoccupied spaces, ozone works well. Otherwise it is hazardous to breathe, hard on most polymers (like carpet backing), and not a good idea as you intend. Change cats. Preferably for a dog. Of course, they "mark" if male... David A. Smith |
#4
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
wrote in message oups.com... Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. He is spraying on vertical surfaces. There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option. We had a similar problem. My wife thought it was manageable until the cat decided to **** on her pillow and she got a face full when she laid down. Why not insist that the Mrs. diaper the cat unless he is in his sand box, in his crate, or outside? This of course will require that the cat be bathed on a daily basis or perhaps shaved on the diaper area so he can be cleaned of the offending smell, but the repeated blood loss when shaving the cat ought to go along way to convince you wife that declawing and disposing are viable alternatives to tolerating a poorly behaved cat. Another idea would be to have a large hollow plastic ball made and put the cat inside. If the cat wants to spray when he is inside the ball then he can enjoy his scent and you don't. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 9, 8:09 am, wrote:
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. He is spraying on vertical surfaces. There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option. Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent? Thanks. You should have had your cat neutered much earlier. My vet says 4 months old is the right time. If you fail to neuter him or do it too late that is what happens. Of course you cannot get rid of the cat. It is your responsiblity to give him a lifetime home. A cat that sprays is a big problem for which there are few good solutions. You can try the ozone generator for sure. Try everthing else you can think of as well. It will not change the cats behaviour. The cat is mad at you. Sometimes giving the cat some quality time will change his behaviour. When you come home, immediatly pick the cat up and give lots of scratches on his head and ears. Then carry him to the bedroom and let him on your chest for a little while giving him lots of pets. If you have been using a spray bottle to keep him off the counters, stop doing that and all other negative style training. Keeping interior doors closes will confine the cat and his undesirable activities. Something cat enthusiasts often do is give the cat his own room complete with other cats and large climbing posts and playthings he can play on. Then he stays in that room forever. Many people will put down a cat that ****es on the family belongings. You won't do it and neither will I but it is the only permanent solution. |
#6
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
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#7
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
"Lawrence" wrote in message ups.com... Of course you cannot get rid of the cat. It is your responsiblity to give him a lifetime home. A cat that sprays is a big problem for which there are few good solutions. You can try the ozone generator for sure. Try everthing else you can think of as well. It will not change the cats behaviour. Yes, but as the owner of the cat, you get to decide just how long that lifetime is. The cat is mad at you. Sometimes giving the cat some quality time will change his behaviour. When you come home, immediatly pick the cat up and give lots of scratches on his head and ears. Then carry him to the bedroom and let him on your chest for a little while giving him lots of pets. If you have been using a spray bottle to keep him off the counters, stop doing that and all other negative style training. Keeping interior doors closes will confine the cat and his undesirable activities. Something cat enthusiasts often do is give the cat his own room complete with other cats and large climbing posts and playthings he can play on. Then he stays in that room forever. Many people will put down a cat that ****es on the family belongings. You won't do it and neither will I but it is the only permanent solution. Enjoy the next 15 years of smelling cat **** and the joy you bring to the potential owners of the home when you go to sell the place. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
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#10
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
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#11
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Goedjn wrote:
On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, wrote: Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. He is spraying on vertical surfaces. There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option. Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent? Thanks. Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards. Then he'll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can't win. FK |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:35:09 -0500, Fred Kasner
wrote: Goedjn wrote: On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, wrote: Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. He is spraying on vertical surfaces. There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option. Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent? Thanks. Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards. Then he'll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can't win. FK High voltage elecrical grid on the baseboards, then.... |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Fred Kasner wrote:
Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was not neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early neutering is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males had such problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the medication lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very cooperative. When he was having an attack he would **** in the bathtub and we could see the blood in his urine. The other cried to indicate the pain. Sprays that would drive him from spraying a vertical surface will merely force him to find a different vertical surface to spray. Crystals are caused by cheap food, high in Magnesium content. Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be avoided. You can't go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina, Iams, Science Diet) but you can kill your kitty with store brands. |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:38:33 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote: Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be avoided. You can't go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina, Iams, Science Diet) Most months. but you can kill your kitty with store brands. |
#15
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 9, 9:09 am, wrote:
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to [snip] Ozone (O3) is in the news a lot these days and has its place in the world of chemistry, but as a consumer product has pretty much been a failure. O3 is a very reactive material and can combine with many chemicals very rapidly. In your case it MIGHT react with the stink in kittys pee. The problem is that most of the 03 is used up before it ever gets to the stinky chemicals. In order to be effective you would have to use high concentrations of O3 which could damage you or the surfaces you are trying to deodorize or rarely cause health problems. There are a couple of approaches I would take - both "natural" or biological. (O3 is "natural" but not at high concentrations.) First, there are products available, through vets I imagine, that contain enzymes that act naturally to degrade the urine and the odors that are there. Second, there are commercial cleaners that are used in public bathrooms that contain bacteria that eat urine and odors that come from urine. These bacteria are common harmless ones that are found in the environment. Both these approaches are sold by Novazyme Biologicals, and I suspect many others. Sorry but I don't buy all the psychological approaches - but I'm a chemist not a pet psychologist. Try both, what do you have to lose but some stink. I have 2 cats and 4 dogs. I swore if any of them developed bad habits such as you're dealing with that they would have to spend pee-time outside. We now have one inside cat and one outside cat, and it works well for all concerned. The outside guy keeps the mouse population in check and has a warm place to sleep and food to eat and goes to the vet when he needs it. If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please let the group know. I'd like to file it away for future reference. Good luck. Harry |
#16
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear hebintn:
On Apr 10, 6:18 am, "hebintn" wrote: .... If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please let the group know. I'd like to file it away for future reference. Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination. None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer". David A. Smith |
#17
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Try the John Wayne Bobbitt solution - amazing what doctors can do!
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#18
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 10, 10:56 am, "dlzc" wrote:
Dear hebintn: On Apr 10, 6:18 am, "hebintn" wrote: ... If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please let the group know. I'd like to file it away for future reference. Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination. None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer". David A. Smith Dave, O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking deodorization or disinfection? Doesn't matter O3 sucks at concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3 efficacy in real world surfaces. Sounds like you've been around O3 projects. 8 ) Are you the Dave Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company? Harry |
#19
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Goedjn wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:35:09 -0500, Fred Kasner wrote: Goedjn wrote: On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, wrote: Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a much-needed ****. He is spraying on vertical surfaces. There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option. Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent? Thanks. Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards. Then he'll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can't win. FK High voltage elecrical grid on the baseboards, then.... The screams will keep you awake all night long. Until he ****es on one and then is electrocuted to death. FK |
#20
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
HeyBub wrote:
Fred Kasner wrote: Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was not neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early neutering is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males had such problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the medication lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very cooperative. When he was having an attack he would **** in the bathtub and we could see the blood in his urine. The other cried to indicate the pain. Sprays that would drive him from spraying a vertical surface will merely force him to find a different vertical surface to spray. Crystals are caused by cheap food, high in Magnesium content. Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be avoided. You can't go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina, Iams, Science Diet) but you can kill your kitty with store brands. They were fed with ground horsemeat and some added table scraps. So much for your purported expertise. FK |
#21
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear hebintn:
On Apr 10, 10:26 am, "hebintn" wrote: On Apr 10, 10:56 am, "dlzc" wrote: .... Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination. None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer". Dave, O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking deodorization or disinfection? Mox nix. Lysing the little fat pockets that cells breathe through takes very little longer than getting double carbon bonds. Doesn't matter O3 sucks at concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3 efficacy in real world surfaces. Carpet would suck, and would no longer be recognizeable as carpet after treatment. Sounds like you've been around O3 projects. 8 ) I had a Co-60 gamma sterilizer in El Paso, so I made ozone in air with a blue glow. Then I worked for an ozone manufacturer making ozone in air or oxygen with a purple to blue glow. Then I worked for a gas-to- liquid contacting company, and ozone came up a lot there also. Are you the Dave Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company? I "designed" (physics, my assistant, and my boss helped much) the cell in this ozone generator, and had much to do with the internal layout: http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf So probably not me. But nice to make your aquaintance. David A. Smith |
#22
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
dlzc wrote:
Dear hebintn: On Apr 10, 10:26 am, "hebintn" wrote: On Apr 10, 10:56 am, "dlzc" wrote: ... Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination. None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer". Dave, O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking deodorization or disinfection? Mox nix. Lysing the little fat pockets that cells breathe through takes very little longer than getting double carbon bonds. Doesn't matter O3 sucks at concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3 efficacy in real world surfaces. Carpet would suck, and would no longer be recognizeable as carpet after treatment. Sounds like you've been around O3 projects. 8 ) I had a Co-60 gamma sterilizer in El Paso, so I made ozone in air with a blue glow. Then I worked for an ozone manufacturer making ozone in air or oxygen with a purple to blue glow. Then I worked for a gas-to- liquid contacting company, and ozone came up a lot there also. Are you the Dave Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company? I "designed" (physics, my assistant, and my boss helped much) the cell in this ozone generator, and had much to do with the internal layout: http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf So probably not me. But nice to make your aquaintance. David A. Smith Hi Dave, I have a friend who has designed some very high efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings, I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for bubble diffusers as a replacement for injectors. (90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8' of water IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I can't remember the exact operating pressure ~20" water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an unproven technology esp in water treatment. Some were sold for special applications and proved very effective. I know he has some ideas for improving transfer efficiency even further - but could this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve? Thanks in advance for any input, Gregg |
#23
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear Gregg:
"Gregg" wrote in message ... .... Hi Dave, I have a friend who has designed some very high efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic I've seen and used porous teflon membranes too... and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings, I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for bubble diffusers as a replacement for injectors. (90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8' of water IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I can't remember the exact operating pressure ~20" water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an unproven technology esp in water treatment. Diffusers have been used in municipal water treatment since the early 1900s. Turndown ratios for diffusers are on the order of 50%, which is fine for some applications. If the growing bubble is filled too slowly, it doesn't distribute over the whole surface... just on the "high spots". Some were sold for special applications and proved very effective. I know he has some ideas for improving transfer efficiency even further - but could this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve? Thanks in advance for any input, There is a great lot of competition in diffusers. If you can do it without polymeric seals of any sort, you will have a leg up on the competition. I personally *hate* diffuser systems. The diffusers are constantly requiring service, since ozone will cause iron (among other things) to go insoluble right on the diffuser. This requires a full shutdown of the process to remove / replace / refurbish. Then you have to build huge tanks for contacting. And you have to make sure the manifold is level and self-draining. And you require high flow rates, or multi-tier delivery manifolds for large gas turn-down ratios. Finally, with large exposed volumes you get very high dissolved oxygen levels, which pose serious corrosion problems in municipal systems. I'll put my salesman's hat on for a second, even though the company I used to work for doesn't work out of Arridzona any more. Injector systems reside outside the contacting area, allowing service on components without draining (or wearing a wetsuit). Injector systems can be arranged to deliver ozone in just a few tens of feet of pipe... even for huge flow rates, and mixed to get (in most cases) better then 95% mass transfer. Injector systems can even be made to keep DO levels close to ambient saturation, so that you don't end up with air binding in filtration systems downstream. Salesman's hat comes off... I added 100 ppd of ozone at 12 wt% to a 350 gpm semiconductor wastewater flow stream, got about 99% mass transfer (very high instantaneous demand), and only took about 60 sq feet of floor space including contacting and destruction of excess gas. Diffusers don't require additional power to contact. But that really is their only benefit. Sorry. David A. Smith |
#24
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Gregg: "Gregg" wrote in message ... ... Hi Dave, I have a friend who has designed some very high efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic I've seen and used porous teflon membranes too... and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings, I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for bubble diffusers as a replacement for injectors. (90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8' of water IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I can't remember the exact operating pressure ~20" water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an unproven technology esp in water treatment. Diffusers have been used in municipal water treatment since the early 1900s. Turndown ratios for diffusers are on the order of 50%, which is fine for some applications. If the growing bubble is filled too slowly, it doesn't distribute over the whole surface... just on the "high spots". Some were sold for special applications and proved very effective. I know he has some ideas for improving transfer efficiency even further - but could this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve? Thanks in advance for any input, There is a great lot of competition in diffusers. If you can do it without polymeric seals of any sort, you will have a leg up on the competition. I personally *hate* diffuser systems. The diffusers are constantly requiring service, since ozone will cause iron (among other things) to go insoluble right on the diffuser. This requires a full shutdown of the process to remove / replace / refurbish. Then you have to build huge tanks for contacting. And you have to make sure the manifold is level and self-draining. And you require high flow rates, or multi-tier delivery manifolds for large gas turn-down ratios. Finally, with large exposed volumes you get very high dissolved oxygen levels, which pose serious corrosion problems in municipal systems. I'll put my salesman's hat on for a second, even though the company I used to work for doesn't work out of Arridzona any more. Injector systems reside outside the contacting area, allowing service on components without draining (or wearing a wetsuit). Injector systems can be arranged to deliver ozone in just a few tens of feet of pipe... even for huge flow rates, and mixed to get (in most cases) better then 95% mass transfer. Injector systems can even be made to keep DO levels close to ambient saturation, so that you don't end up with air binding in filtration systems downstream. Salesman's hat comes off... I added 100 ppd of ozone at 12 wt% to a 350 gpm semiconductor wastewater flow stream, got about 99% mass transfer (very high instantaneous demand), and only took about 60 sq feet of floor space including contacting and destruction of excess gas. Diffusers don't require additional power to contact. But that really is their only benefit. Sorry. David A. Smith Thanks for your input Dave. It's good to hear from the other side! - Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before throwing money & time down the drain. I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser (We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare type diffusers for municipal waste water systems - they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30' water column) This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is used - screws right in - the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard diffusers. The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow diffusers in the grid. (If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to prevent clogging (A long explanation is required) I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get 100% transfer in short column depths 8ft so no ozone destruction is needed. Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot of expensive plumbing required and maintenance would be a pain. He's not looking at selling systems - just diffusers... With the additional info - do you think there is any benefit? Gregg |
#25
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear Gregg:
"Gregg" wrote in message ... .... Thanks for your input Dave. It's good to hear from the other side! - Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before throwing money & time down the drain. I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser (We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare type diffusers for municipal waste water systems - they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30' water column) Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the water to get more oxygen in. This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is used - screws right in - How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a *very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin. the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard diffusers. Tell this to Refractron. The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow diffusers in the grid. You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all large municipal applications. (If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to prevent clogging (A long explanation is required) You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting blocked. I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get 100% transfer in short column depths 8ft so no ozone destruction is needed. Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry's law gets thrown out. I don't think a diffuser can change the laws of physics at the surface. Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under the spray-can paint job. Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot of expensive plumbing required and maintenance would be a pain. He's not looking at selling systems - just diffusers... With the additional info - do you think there is any benefit? In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a living at (or not get sued doing), probably not. David A. Smith |
#26
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 9, 6:09 am, wrote:
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray? I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors..... I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining 10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of damage to fabrics and so on. I think it may not have succeeded because, well, 10 ppm is a LOT of ozone, dangerous in even short exposures, and the people that will work for hotel wages are just not well enough trained to work with something that nasty. The low levels of ozone made by the home ozone industry likely won't help much with the odor, but they will, over time, damage materials and possibly cause an asthma-like irritation. The ozone machine has to have a reflexive control on it to maintain ozone levels at 10 ppm too, which ups the cost a lot. We worked for some time on a sensor for that, but most companies investigating the deodorizing application gave up on it, as far as I know, and went into water sterilizing instead. Liability concerns may have had something to do with it. Dangerous Bill |
#27
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Gregg: "Gregg" wrote in message ... ... Thanks for your input Dave. It's good to hear from the other side! - Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before throwing money & time down the drain. I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser (We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare type diffusers for municipal waste water systems - they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30' water column) Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the water to get more oxygen in. This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is used - screws right in - How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a *very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin. the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard diffusers. Tell this to Refractron. The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow diffusers in the grid. You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all large municipal applications. (If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to prevent clogging (A long explanation is required) You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting blocked. I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get 100% transfer in short column depths 8ft so no ozone destruction is needed. Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry's law gets thrown out. I don't think a diffuser can change the laws of physics at the surface. Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under the spray-can paint job. Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot of expensive plumbing required and maintenance would be a pain. He's not looking at selling systems - just diffusers... With the additional info - do you think there is any benefit? In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a living at (or not get sued doing), probably not. Thanks for the input Dave... It would only be a minor addition to his product lines. (more of an area of personal interest - water treatment.) As far as getting sued - He wouldn't violate valid patents. (or invalid ones with out a right to practice opinion) He has a very solid background in diffuser technology ... .and some interesting results and stories. I'm pretty sure I don't have all the details right ;-). - I shouldn't relay second hand information, but It sounded like an area of interest for both you and my friend. If you're interested - I can give you contact information - it sounds like you two might have a pretty interesting discussion. (he loves technical banter) Gregg David A. Smith |
#28
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear Gregg:
"Gregg" wrote in message ... .... Thanks for the input Dave... It would only be a minor addition to his product lines. (more of an area of personal interest - water treatment.) As far as getting sued - He wouldn't violate valid patents. (or invalid ones with out a right to practice opinion) It was not "patent" or "opinion" that would get him sued, IMO. It was violation of physical law, and wild claims. Customers are getting wise. He has a very solid background in diffuser technology ... .and some interesting results and stories. I'm pretty sure I don't have all the details right ;-). - I shouldn't relay second hand information, but It sounded like an area of interest for both you and my friend. If you're interested - I can give you contact information - it sounds like you two might have a pretty interesting discussion. (he loves technical banter) That's OK. I am not in the busniess of specifying diffuser systems. But thank you. David A. Smith |
#29
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 11, 6:52 pm, "Bill Penrose" wrote:
I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining 10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of damage to fabrics and so on. Dangerous Bill I have been told that ozone generators work by desensitizing your nose, rather than actually reacting with the odor source. I have not been able to find the source for that statement though it seems reasonable. |
#30
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 12, 7:15 am, wrote:
On Apr 11, 6:52 pm, "Bill Penrose" wrote: I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining 10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of damage to fabrics and so on. Dangerous Bill I have been told that ozone generators work by desensitizing your nose, rather than actually reacting with the odor source. Both are true. When I worked around ozone without enough ventilation, I could detect it only by the itching in my throat and a dry sensation at the back of my nose. This effect started at 50 ppb and increased with concentration. I can tell you that a surprise blast of 30% ozone in the face is no fun at all, and it was a week or more before my throat and nose completely recovered. Luckily I didn't inhale. But it readily destroys some organic compounds, or and renders others sufficiently polar that they are no longer volatile. It's so reactive that you can actually measure a concentration gradient between the center of a room and positions adjacent to the walls. I know that it works well on residual cigarette stink, and not very well on dead animal stench. Other odors may vary. Dangerous Bill |
#31
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear timothy42b:
wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 11, 6:52 pm, "Bill Penrose" wrote: I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining 10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of damage to fabrics and so on. I have been told that ozone generators work by desensitizing your nose, rather than actually reacting with the odor source. I have not been able to find the source for that statement though it seems reasonable. Saying that a microwave cooks from the inside out sounds reasonable, too. It still is not true. Yes ozone will desensitize your nose... to the smell of ozone. Enough of it will have other physiological effects as well. Ozone will not *quite* pass from point of generation to either double carbon bonds or less-than fully oxided sulfur without passing through points in between. But it will come very close to that. David A. Smith |
#32
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 13, 3:56 am, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote: Saying that a microwave cooks from the inside out sounds reasonable, too. It still is not true. Yes ozone will desensitize your nose... to the smell of ozone. Enough of it will have other physiological effects as well. Ozone will not *quite* pass from point of generation to either double carbon bonds or less-than fully oxided sulfur without passing through points in between. But it will come very close to that. David A. Smith And yet I've seen it be quite effective on a mildew smell in a space large enough there is no chance it was really removing the odorant. So I have to believe the desensitization is a bit more general than you think. |
#33
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear timothy42b:
wrote in message ups.com... On Apr 13, 3:56 am, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" wrote: Saying that a microwave cooks from the inside out sounds reasonable, too. It still is not true. Yes ozone will desensitize your nose... to the smell of ozone. Enough of it will have other physiological effects as well. Ozone will not *quite* pass from point of generation to either double carbon bonds or less-than fully oxided sulfur without passing through points in between. But it will come very close to that. And yet I've seen it be quite effective on a mildew smell in a space large enough there is no chance it was really removing the odorant. So I have to believe the desensitization is a bit more general than you think. You claim it had "no chance" of removing the odorant. You can still smell mildew odors to this day. Ozone's "swamping" or desensitization of the sense of smell (or only certain receptors) is short lived. If the mildew odor is not present the next day, it is because ozone did its job, found / oxidized those double carbon bonds, and decayed fully back to oxygen. So I have to believe you have not thought this all through. I have breathed 10+wt% ozone on a couple of occasions. I can still smell ozone, and a lot of other things. Ozone is not a magic bullet. Even for your sense of smell. David A. Smith |
#34
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 13, 3:11 pm, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote: So I have to believe you have not thought this all through. I have breathed 10+wt% ozone on a couple of occasions. I can still smell ozone, and a lot of other things. David A. Smith- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm sure I have not thought it through in the depth it deserves, nor done any calculations, but I would suggest it is obvious you have not done so either. 1. I did not say ozone permanently destroys your sense of smell, as you are falsely attributing to me. I believe it desensitizes it sufficiently to cover odors when the generator is running and for a short time afterwards. If the smell disappeared permanently, I would agree the ozone had been working on the odorant materials. In the case of mildew in a large water damaged warehouse, without any forced air circulation, I think the effect was on the employee's nose, not on the spores. 2. You claimed that ozone could only desensitize the nose to ozone (and imply that this is a permanent condition.) My mildew example was one where I believe the desensitization was to something other than odor. Ben's cigaret smoke example was one where he believes the desensitization was to something other than ozone. If you have some evidence for your claim now would be a good time to cite it. |
#35
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear timothy:
On Apr 13, 7:34 am, wrote: On Apr 13, 3:11 pm, "N:dlzcD:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" wrote: So I have to believe you have not thought this all through. I have breathed 10+wt% ozone on a couple of occasions. I can still smell ozone, and a lot of other things. I'm sure I have not thought it through in the depth it deserves, Actually you probably have. Because we are straining at gnats here. nor done any calculations, but I would suggest it is obvious you have not done so either. 1. I did not say ozone permanently destroys your sense of smell, as you are falsely attributing to me. I believe it desensitizes it sufficiently to cover odors when the generator is running and for a short time afterwards. If the smell disappeared permanently, I would agree the ozone had been working on the odorant materials. In the case of mildew in a large water damaged warehouse, without any forced air circulation, I think the effect was on the employee's nose, not on the spores. You said: And yet I've seen it be quite effective on a mildew smell in a space large enough there is no chance it was really removing the odorant. Your express claim is that, not in your opinion, ozone could not remove the mildew smell. "No chance" you said. In your example, to which only you have the "rest of the story" you did not say that the smell came back. Ozone is used in mildew remediation. You can eliminate the smell with very little ozone, and as long as the stuff never gets wet again, the *smell* never comes back. Even if the mildew spores and dead "skeletons" might still be present. 2. You claimed that ozone could only desensitize the nose to ozone (and imply that this is a permanent condition.) I made no such claim. I could smell sweat on stainless steel, when I could no longer smell ozone. Your post implied that, again with the "rest of the story missing", they did not smell anything of mildew ever again: Your statement of opinion. So I have to believe the desensitization is a bit more general than you think. "General" seems to read as "permanent" in your "two paragraph" response. My mildew example was one where I believe the desensitization was to something other than odor. Ben's cigaret smoke example was one where he believes the desensitization was to something other than ozone. If you have some evidence for your claim now would be a good time to cite it. There are a host of companies that "decontaminate" used cars, using ozone to counter, among other things, smoke odors... using only ozone. There are a host of companies the remediate water / smoke damaged buildings / structures, and where they don't strip it down to studs, they use ozone to permanently destroy the odor (if not "sterilize" it). Insurance companies accept charges from these companies, and do not accept them as permanently damaging their client's sense of smell. Now I apologize if I have put words in your mouth, that you did not mean to say what I "heard". Unless we are going to talk past one another yet again, the last words can be yours. David A. Smith |
#36
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 13, 8:49 pm, "dlzc" wrote:
Unless we are going to talk past one another yet again, the last words can be yours. David A. Smith While getting the last word can be pleasant, data might be more useful in resolving the disagreement. I am skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on directly reducing odor because of the difficulty controlling concentration and contact time. The people who try to sell me boiler chemicals, swimming pool treatments, drinking water treatments, etc., know what concentrations they want AND how to measure what they are getting. The people who try to sell me magnetic water treatment and ozone odorant control usually know neither. Often they can't even tell you units for flow. You are skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on reducing smell sensitivity, I don't really know why. The data I think would be useful would be the concentrations known to have an effect on the nose, and the concentrations known to have an effect on aerosol odorous compounds. I don't know where to look for that data, I'm assigned to Europe with no access to English language libraries. |
#37
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On Apr 11, 8:16 am, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote: Dear Gregg: "Gregg" wrote in message ... ... Thanks for your input Dave. It's good to hear from the other side! - Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before throwing money & time down the drain. I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser (We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare type diffusers for municipal waste water systems - they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30' water column) Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the water to get more oxygen in. This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is used - screws right in - How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a *very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin. the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard diffusers. Tell this to Refractron. The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow diffusers in the grid. You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all large municipal applications. (If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to prevent clogging (A long explanation is required) You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting blocked. I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get 100% transfer in short column depths 8ft so no ozone destruction is needed. Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry's law gets thrown out. I don't think a diffuser can change the laws of physics at the surface. Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under the spray-can paint job. Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot of expensive plumbing required and maintenance would be a pain. He's not looking at selling systems - just diffusers... With the additional info - do you think there is any benefit? In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a living at (or not get sued doing), probably not. David A. Smith O3 is a lung irritant. Every Gov regulating agency has ppm per hour limits for exposure for o3. Ozone Generators easily surpass the max saftey limits. Read up on o3 before you leap. Start with the EPA and Google Ozones harmfull effects - o3 exposure limits. True Generators can easily overexpose a room with ozone.High o3 fries lungs permanently.. |
#38
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
Dear timothy42b:
wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 13, 8:49 pm, "dlzc" wrote: Unless we are going to talk past one another yet again, the last words can be yours. While getting the last word can be pleasant, data might be more useful in resolving the disagreement. I am skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on directly reducing odor because of the difficulty controlling concentration and contact time. The people who try to sell me boiler chemicals, swimming pool treatments, drinking water treatments, etc., know what concentrations they want AND how to measure what they are getting. The people who try to sell me magnetic water treatment and ozone odorant control usually know neither. Often they can't even tell you units for flow. And I have found chemical salesmen that had the some problems you describe for ozone salesmen. None of them are in business for long. You are skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on reducing smell sensitivity, I don't really know why. Ozone has a half-life in air of minutes to hours, depending on humidity and temperature. An ozone treatment now, is gone tomorrow. The olfactory sense can be swamped for a while. But if you are ever capable of smelling mold in a different building, and smell none in a building recently treated, that is because there is none present. The data I think would be useful would be the concentrations known to have an effect on the nose, The effect is temporary, not permanent. The presence of ozone in air is temporary, not permanent. and the concentrations known to have an effect on aerosol odorous compounds. I don't know where to look for that data, I'm assigned to Europe with no access to English language libraries. On days where ozone levels are high enough to cause the government to issue a warning, people can still taste food. So the "threshold" is higher than this. The concentrations of ozone known to have an effect on odorous compounds is not quite zero... it is the mass produced / reacted, not the instantaneous distribution of said mass... just like with any other first-order rate reaction. You can feed a chemical slowly over a day, or feed it in doses once-a-day, the mass injected is mass reacted (unless it is a cooling tower of course... then some of it is blown down). David A. Smith |
#39
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chem,alt.med.veterinary,sci.bio.microbiology
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
replying to shazlikd, dr joseph wrote:
the only thin that works is enzyme cleaners specifically for urine. This is an old thread but for anyone browsing, theres a product called angry orange (you can buy on amazon ) that works great, its important for the product to sit til it air dries.. it can take days or weeks for the enzymes to eat the pee and sometomes multiple treatments. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ay-208472-.htm |
#40
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
On 11/6/18 6:44 AM, dr joseph wrote:
replying to shazlikd, dr joseph wrote: the only thin that works is enzyme cleaners specifically for urine. This is an old thread but for anyone browsing, theres a product called angry orange (you can buy on amazon ) that works great, its important for the product to sit til it air dries.. it can take days or weeks for the enzymes to eat the pee and sometomes multiple treatments. Sooner or later, cats get ****ed at you and start peeing all over everything in your house.Â* Best thing is to euthanize the phuking cat before it happens. |
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