On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:06:22 -0800, "Nathan" wrote:

Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes to
over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier. Didn't I say that
I was an engineer in the original post? I was tired and a bit grumpy when I
wrote that first post.

I get a bit ticked off whenever I have to fix anything in the house, it
seems like the builder cut every corner imaginable...I am surprised the
house passed inspections.

That's because you think the building code requires something it
doesn't. Mostly, a house just has to not be actually dangerous.
Since yours hasn't killed anyone, it's probably ok.

I'll wager the building inspector was getting his
palm greased by the builder to look the other way. I have to change out
much more then I should to be able to fix/upgrade anything. Houses should
be built to be easily maintained in the future. I mapped out a schematic of
the house and all the electrical circuits...1/3 of the house is on one
circuit. There is no room to add any extra outlets and still be safe.
Every room should be on an individual circuit. One room can have 3
different circuits in it...that is very bad engineering.

There is, in the US, no upper limit on the number of receptacles
you can have one one circut. There is a lower limit
on the number of available amps you can have in a room, but
that's something trivial like 3 watts/sqft.

Why should circuts and rooms correspond? It makes
far more sense to me to have WALLS and circuts
correspond.





gees, just assume the worst because someone has a bad perspective and a
stereotype of a group of people...HAHAHA

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Nathan" wrote in message
...
HAHAHA successful trolling!


What do you do for a living? It must be something embarrassing. I've asked
twice and you refuse to answer. Are you on permanent disability because
you got scared by a hornet when you were 8 years old?

Goedjn wrote:

Why should circuts and rooms correspond? It makes
far more sense to me to have WALLS and circuts
correspond.

From a homeowner point of view, it would be nice to be able to shut off
the "left bedroom" breaker and not interfere with other stuff.

In my house, for instance, I have to remember that "these two outlets
are on that circuit, but the other one on that wall is this other
circuit, while that one over there shares a circuit with the outside
plugs and is thus GFCI-protected, while the lights are on this other
circuit altogether". One room, five circuits.

It made things really interesting when I wanted to replace the outlets,
as it involved basically mapping out the entire house. I can't just
label the breakers, I need a floorplan with outlets and matching
circuits marked on it.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
Goedjn wrote:

Why should circuts and rooms correspond? It makes
far more sense to me to have WALLS and circuts correspond.


From a homeowner point of view, it would be nice to be able to shut off
the "left bedroom" breaker and not interfere with other stuff.

In my house, for instance, I have to remember that "these two outlets
are on that circuit, but the other one on that wall is this other
circuit, while that one over there shares a circuit with the outside
plugs and is thus GFCI-protected, while the lights are on this other
circuit altogether". One room, five circuits.

It made things really interesting when I wanted to replace the outlets,
as it involved basically mapping out the entire house. I can't just
label the breakers, I need a floorplan with outlets and matching
circuits marked on it.

Chris
Take a few minutes to remove all of your receptical/switch covers .. ..
... trace them back to their appropriate breaker, then write the breaker
number on the back of the cover plate & put it back on .. .. .. you'll
never again have to trace back an outlet. Just look on the back .. ..
... very simple.

On Feb 12, 4:01 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
Goedjn wrote:
Why should circuts and rooms correspond? It makes
far more sense to me to have WALLS and circuts
correspond.

From a homeowner point of view, it would be nice to be able to shut off
the "left bedroom" breaker and not interfere with other stuff.

In my house, for instance, I have to remember that "these two outlets
are on that circuit, but the other one on that wall is this other
circuit, while that one over there shares a circuit with the outside
plugs and is thus GFCI-protected, while the lights are on this other
circuit altogether". One room, five circuits.

It made things really interesting when I wanted to replace the outlets,
as it involved basically mapping out the entire house. I can't just
label the breakers, I need a floorplan with outlets and matching
circuits marked on it.

Chris

Sounds to Me like both ideas have merit..Letting a room determine a
circuit would simplify things for the user,,but,,if a problem
developes with that circuit then all the outlets might be dead in
there till it's fixed..Sounds kinda like 6 of one and half dozen of
another..An Electrician may well have the last/best say on it tho..
Dean

"Nathan" wrote in message
news
Sorry Steve, You need money to make money. I will likely be retired by
30 and living off the stock market.

I have money. Last P&L statement was $3.2 million. And that's not counting
the living trust where most of the family money rests. I am 58, and have
been retired for two and a half years now. I own property and real estate
in three states. The stock market is a sucker bet, so, I am content to get
from 12% to 25% on first trust deeds, placed through a CFP I know from high
school days. I netted $72k on that last year. Then, with income
properties, pension, and other income streams, it runs about $180k a year
with HEFTY business deductions.

Last year, I had to pay the big total of $7800 income tax. I drive a $38k
new Dodge truck, which I was allowed to totally deduct last year as a
business expense. Almost every lunch I eat, all the gas I buy, and every
meal I eat at a restaurant goes down as a business expense.

I travel a lot. I go to Mazatlan, Maui, Cabo, and fishing a couple of times
a year on the Kenai. I sleep until I am ready to get up. I own ATVs,
boats, and so many guns I don't have count. I have a fully equipped 1500 sf
shop. I camp and fish and do photography. Life is good.

How you doing?

We can all talk about what we're GOING to do. I'm only interested in what's
REALLY happening.

You're not going to believe this, but then, I really don't give a **** about
clueless twits like you.

With your attitude, you'll smart off to the wrong fellow, and you'll be worm
food. I doubt if you live to be thirty.

Steve

tsk, tsk, tsk...such an attitude. Sounds like you are doing good...why are
you getting so upset when I am pointing out common knowledge? Anyone that I
have asked about contractors has the same complaints as me, so it seems to
be a pervasive problem. Perhaps someone should pass some truth in
advertising type laws for contractors so everything can be compared
apples-to-apples. I was complaining about my bad luck with contractors. I
am stating logical facts and my observations. It seems like I have touched
a nerve. Perhaps you are haunted by nightmares of ripping people off?


"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Nathan" wrote in message
news
Sorry Steve, You need money to make money. I will likely be retired by
30 and living off the stock market.

I have money. Last P&L statement was $3.2 million. And that's not
counting the living trust where most of the family money rests. I am 58,
and have been retired for two and a half years now. I own property and
real estate in three states. The stock market is a sucker bet, so, I am
content to get from 12% to 25% on first trust deeds, placed through a CFP
I know from high school days. I netted $72k on that last year. Then,
with income properties, pension, and other income streams, it runs about
$180k a year with HEFTY business deductions.

Last year, I had to pay the big total of $7800 income tax. I drive a $38k
new Dodge truck, which I was allowed to totally deduct last year as a
business expense. Almost every lunch I eat, all the gas I buy, and every
meal I eat at a restaurant goes down as a business expense.

I travel a lot. I go to Mazatlan, Maui, Cabo, and fishing a couple of
times a year on the Kenai. I sleep until I am ready to get up. I own
ATVs, boats, and so many guns I don't have count. I have a fully equipped
1500 sf shop. I camp and fish and do photography. Life is good.

How you doing?

We can all talk about what we're GOING to do. I'm only interested in
what's REALLY happening.

You're not going to believe this, but then, I really don't give a ****
about clueless twits like you.

With your attitude, you'll smart off to the wrong fellow, and you'll be
worm food. I doubt if you live to be thirty.

Steve

Yeah, I agree with you. Though wouldn't the best solution be to have two
circuits per room. It would cost a bit more, especially with the price of
copper now days, but theye would always be room to expand. And if you
needed to work on a circuit, you still have the other circuit to provide
light or operate tools.


It really comes down to how much money the customer wants to
spend...unfortunately most people only care about the lowest price, not good
quality.


"Dean" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 12, 4:01 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
Goedjn wrote:
Why should circuts and rooms correspond? It makes
far more sense to me to have WALLS and circuts
correspond.

From a homeowner point of view, it would be nice to be able to shut off
the "left bedroom" breaker and not interfere with other stuff.

In my house, for instance, I have to remember that "these two outlets
are on that circuit, but the other one on that wall is this other
circuit, while that one over there shares a circuit with the outside
plugs and is thus GFCI-protected, while the lights are on this other
circuit altogether". One room, five circuits.

It made things really interesting when I wanted to replace the outlets,
as it involved basically mapping out the entire house. I can't just
label the breakers, I need a floorplan with outlets and matching
circuits marked on it.

Chris

Sounds to Me like both ideas have merit..Letting a room determine a
circuit would simplify things for the user,,but,,if a problem
developes with that circuit then all the outlets might be dead in
there till it's fixed..Sounds kinda like 6 of one and half dozen of
another..An Electrician may well have the last/best say on it tho..
Dean

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:15:20 -0800, "Nathan" wrote:

Yeah, I agree with you. Though wouldn't the best solution be to have two
circuits per room. It would cost a bit more, especially with the price of
copper now days, but theye would always be room to expand. And if you
needed to work on a circuit, you still have the other circuit to provide
light or operate tools.

What is it with this "room to expand" crap? If you want
more receptacles on a circut, you stick them in. the only time
there's a problem is if you're adding enough equipment to push
the ampacity of your breakers, in which case, you probably
need a dedicated circut somewhere anyway.

Please excuse the rambling nature of my post but please read it all. It
could lead to some good discussion

This was in response to someone complaining about how much a repair cost
(HVAC or Plumbing). It is rambling, and I am not going to go back and
correct my grammar, sorry. I hope I get some of points across.

Unless you want to deal with a company who will be gone in 1-5 years, you
will pay more to get a job done properly, and have a company stand behind
their work.
You have to consider what is the overhead of that company. What is the
national average time it take to perform that task. For an above average
shop certified techs, clean new trucks, ongoing training, planning on
longevity in the industry, purchase of all new tools and gadgets to keep up
with the new and more complex machinery, lawyers, accountants, consultants,
insurances, taxes. Out of an 8 hour day we may only be able to collect for
4- 6 of them. How many families is the owner of that company responsible to
feed and insure.Wait we need to advertise $2-10,000 per month. Licenses,
Trade organizations, Chamber of Commerce, Lease/Mortgage, utilities, Cell
Phones $800/month, survive during seasonal slow times (overhead doesn't
change), You notice I neglected to put the owner/general manager/ manager
of every hat in business, did not have a salary in there. Trust me the best
tech make more than we do for quite a while. We are trying to make a 5-10%
net profit at the end of the year. Most Companies out there make less than
1-3%. Most companies making that small net will fail with in 5 years.

The average wage of an above average technician is $20-30/hr + about 28% for
taxes and insurances, plus about $6/ hour family health insurance. A company
with over three trucks on the street requires at least one full time person
to run the office $15-20/ hour. Hopefully she has bookkeeping experience,
if not (sometimes if she does) you will need someone to do the books at
least once per week, another $100/week.
We have a drastic shortage of trained personnel in our field, despite these
wages. In addition we need extremely knowledgeable, computer literate,
clean, and organized personnel. Most of our employees make more than alot
of college graduates.

I hope I am getting my point across. There are so many hidden costs, that
the customer doesn't see or have no fathomable knowledge of having to pay.
And lets admit it, the customer has to cover all of the costs.

...and if you use a guy who is doing it on the side, it is really wrong on a
couple of notes. Does he have the insurance and license to perform work on
your you. I know he is a freind or friend of a friend, What is going to
happen when you have to sue him for burning a aprt of your house, or falling
through a ceiling, or flooding your basement. What happens to you if he
breaks a hand or foot while working in your house, and can't work for 6
weeks and your work is half done. Where is that guy going to be when it
breaks down. How many of the parts he is using are stolen from his
employers vehicle, what kind of a warrantee can he give you. what kind of
inferior equipment is he using, because that's all they sell to
moonlighters. There also companies that do business like this. They lack
the advanced training they need now a days to keep current with the new
developments in our industry. You would be shocked if you knew the amount
of repairs we have to go on to fix improperly installed or set-up equipment.
These are the guys that will bid $1-2000 less on installations, and the ones
who can't go back to fix it when it breaks.

Do you know how much it costs to make a hamburger, or a cup of coffee? It
would probably knock your socks off if you knew the net profits on that
stuff. How about new cars. How many hours do really spend in your cars?
How long do you keep it, how much did it cost? Does the dealership send
someone from their establishment to fix or maintain it, you have to drive it
to the dealership or repair person. What kind of net profits do you think
they are making.

Compare that to your home comfort system. You or someone in your home is
with your system almost 24/7. It costs 1/2 to a third of what it costs to
purchase or maintain as your auto did. Yet you want to skimp on costs, you
want the least amount of health saving accessories if any, you don't want to
invest on Comfort Issues that can be done once and improve the overall
quality of life for everyone in the home. By the way the Home Comfort
System will last 5-10 times longer than that new car you bought. I welcome
any debate about what I have just said. Keep it in debate rather than
attacks and look forward to discussing this with one and all, but I will
PLONK you if you just act like jerk
--
Bob Pietrangelo
(home)
(work)
www.comfort-solution.biz

Unless my electrical guide book is wrong, it says that you consider each
outlet as 180 watts and if I recall you are allowed to add 10-12 outlets on
one 15A circuit. Every circuit in my house has around 10 outlets and 2
lights. Wouldn't that be against code if I was to add any more circuits?
Thats why I keep ranting about room to expand.


"Goedjn" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:15:20 -0800, "Nathan" wrote:

Yeah, I agree with you. Though wouldn't the best solution be to have two
circuits per room. It would cost a bit more, especially with the price of
copper now days, but theye would always be room to expand. And if you
needed to work on a circuit, you still have the other circuit to provide
light or operate tools.

What is it with this "room to expand" crap? If you want
more receptacles on a circut, you stick them in. the only time
there's a problem is if you're adding enough equipment to push
the ampacity of your breakers, in which case, you probably
need a dedicated circut somewhere anyway.

"Bob Pietrangelo" wrote



This was in response to someone complaining about how much a repair
cost (HVAC or Plumbing)..........

major snip.....I welcome any debate about what I have just said.

Good post, Bob.
You made many excellent points.
I used to try to explain many of the same points you made to customers who
questioned my prices...
I now say "How much would YOU charge ME to leave your wife and kids at the
dinner table or the family room, get in your car, drive to MY house, go
into MY basement, and stick your head into MY furnace and fix it??"
--
Respectfully, Bob

"Bob_Loblaw" wrote in message
...
"Bob Pietrangelo" wrote



This was in response to someone complaining about how much a repair
cost (HVAC or Plumbing)..........

major snip.....I welcome any debate about what I have just said.

Good post, Bob.
You made many excellent points.
I used to try to explain many of the same points you made to customers who
questioned my prices...
I now say "How much would YOU charge ME to leave your wife and kids at the
dinner table or the family room, get in your car, drive to MY house, go
into MY basement, and stick your head into MY furnace and fix it??"
--
Respectfully, Bob


How about the people who can't spare the 3 minutes it takes to shop vac 20
years' worth of cobwebs and spider eggs off the pipes they want a plumber to
work on?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:22:10 -0500, "Bob Pietrangelo"
wrote:

Please excuse the rambling nature of my post but please read it all. It
could lead to some good discussion SNIP

This is a very self-serving bunch of information. No customer needs to
know any of it. They have a job to be done, and they can choose
whomever can do it competently, and at the best price. All of your
details are the business of the contractor, and if he can't manage
them, then he goes out of business. That is the nature of business.

My community has several very competent plumbers, electricians and
carpenters who find no need to overcharge. As a result, they get all
the business that they can handle. People know that they will be
charged a fair price, so nobody hesitates to call them. These guys
don't get rich, but they make a very comfortable living. One of them
doesn't even have a yellow-pages listing. The word-of-mouth
recommendations fill his schedule.

....and you can plonk whomever you wish to plonk. Nobody cares who you
plonk.

Greg

"Greg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:22:10 -0500, "Bob Pietrangelo"
wrote:

Please excuse the rambling nature of my post but please read it all. It
could lead to some good discussion SNIP

This is a very self-serving bunch of information. No customer needs to
know any of it. They have a job to be done, and they can choose
whomever can do it competently, and at the best price. All of your
details are the business of the contractor, and if he can't manage
them, then he goes out of business. That is the nature of business.

My community has several very competent plumbers, electricians and
carpenters who find no need to overcharge. As a result, they get all
the business that they can handle. People know that they will be
charged a fair price, so nobody hesitates to call them. These guys
don't get rich, but they make a very comfortable living. One of them
doesn't even have a yellow-pages listing. The word-of-mouth
recommendations fill his schedule.

...and you can plonk whomever you wish to plonk. Nobody cares who you
plonk.



Plonk!!

--

"Greg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:22:10 -0500, "Bob Pietrangelo"
wrote:

Please excuse the rambling nature of my post but please read it all. It
could lead to some good discussion SNIP

This is a very self-serving bunch of information. No customer needs to
know any of it. They have a job to be done, and they can choose
whomever can do it competently, and at the best price.

Huh? A customer doesn't need to know that this guy just got his license, is
going to use illegal alien subs with no industrial insurance, and has
underbid the next contractor by $235,000 to build your house.

Customers like that deserve (like you) to get whatever befalls them and
their "best price" mentality.

Steve

Steve

Greg wrote





All of your
details are the business of the contractor, and if he can't manage
them, then he goes out of business.


Ummm...that's sort of his point....




My community has several very competent plumbers, electricians and
carpenters who find no need to overcharge.


Who's talking about over-charging?
Were talking about customers who complain about legitimate prices.


These guys don't get rich, but they make a very comfortable living.

Something wrong with getting rich by choosing to step away from the
comfortable, secure, cheque-for-life union job, and putting your home and
family life in a precarious position in order to take a chance for a better
life?



One of them
doesn't even have a yellow-pages listing. The word-of-mouth
recommendations fill his schedule.

Word-of-mouth is great, but even established companies like McDonalds, Home
Depot, Wal Mart, etc...still advertise.
Think maybe they know something about marketing??



Nobody cares who you
plonk.

I care! Please post pictures of the one you're plonking!





--
Respectfully, Bob

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Greg wrote





All of your
details are the business of the contractor, and if he can't manage
them, then he goes out of business.


Ummm...that's sort of his point....




My community has several very competent plumbers, electricians and
carpenters who find no need to overcharge.


Who's talking about over-charging?
Were talking about customers who complain about legitimate prices.


These guys don't get rich, but they make a very comfortable living.

Something wrong with getting rich by choosing to step away from the
comfortable, secure, cheque-for-life union job, and putting your home and
family life in a precarious position in order to take a chance for a better
life?



One of them
doesn't even have a yellow-pages listing. The word-of-mouth
recommendations fill his schedule.

Word-of-mouth is great, but even established companies like McDonalds, Home
Depot, Wal Mart, etc...still advertise.
Think maybe they know something about marketing??



Nobody cares who you
plonk.

I care! Please post pictures of the one you're plonking!

The salesman for a a local radio station was making a call on a hardware
store owner. The owner said he had been in the same place for fifteen
years and he didn't think he needed to advertise. The Salesman asked
him if the church at the end of the block was there when he opened the
church being over two hundred years old. The owner said of course it
was. Salesman asked why do you suppose they still ring their bell every
Sunday.
--
Tom Horne

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:52:19 -0800, "Nathan" wrote:

Unless my electrical guide book is wrong, it says that you consider each
outlet as 180 watts and if I recall you are allowed to add 10-12 outlets on
one 15A circuit. Every circuit in my house has around 10 outlets and 2
lights. Wouldn't that be against code if I was to add any more circuits?
Thats why I keep ranting about room to expand.

Depends. Where are you?

To the best of my knowledge, the NEC imposes no such limit.
Assorted city codes and/or the Canadian code might.

Whether you SHOULD add another circut when you're adding
outlets depends mostly on why you're adding the outlets
in the first place. If you're trying to find a place
to plug in a treadmill, I think I'd add a new line. If you're
just trying to move a lamp from one end of the couch to the other,
why bother?

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:52:37 GMT, Thomas Horne
wrote:

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Greg wrote





All of your
details are the business of the contractor, and if he can't manage
them, then he goes out of business.


Ummm...that's sort of his point....




My community has several very competent plumbers, electricians and
carpenters who find no need to overcharge.


Who's talking about over-charging?
Were talking about customers who complain about legitimate prices.


These guys don't get rich, but they make a very comfortable living.

Something wrong with getting rich by choosing to step away from the
comfortable, secure, cheque-for-life union job, and putting your home and
family life in a precarious position in order to take a chance for a better
life?



One of them
doesn't even have a yellow-pages listing. The word-of-mouth
recommendations fill his schedule.

Word-of-mouth is great, but even established companies like McDonalds, Home
Depot, Wal Mart, etc...still advertise.
Think maybe they know something about marketing??



Nobody cares who you
plonk.

I care! Please post pictures of the one you're plonking!

The salesman for a a local radio station was making a call on a hardware
store owner. The owner said he had been in the same place for fifteen
years and he didn't think he needed to advertise. The Salesman asked
him if the church at the end of the block was there when he opened the
church being over two hundred years old. The owner said of course it
was. Salesman asked why do you suppose they still ring their bell every
Sunday.

Wow - THAT was a stupid little irrelevant story ....


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Word-of-mouth is great, but even established companies like McDonalds, Home
Depot, Wal Mart, etc...still advertise.
Think maybe they know something about marketing??

Different goals. Mcdonalds is prepared to grow infinately.
Many contractors are perfectly happy with a 3-year backlog
of jobs for them and whatever size crew they're comfortable
managing. Not everyone wants to be multinational.

One of them
doesn't even have a yellow-pages listing. The word-of-mouth
recommendations fill his schedule.
Word-of-mouth is great, but even established companies like McDonalds,
Home
Depot, Wal Mart, etc...still advertise.
Think maybe they know something about marketing??

Marketing can be over rated. I think I would still go to McDonalds if they
did NO advertising.

It all depends on your market niche. I was a steel erection contractor. I
had the smallest yellow page ad you could get. I was AAA Welding, but they
still messed up the alphabet and put me farther back in the listings rather
at the first a few times over the years.

I targeted the businesses I wanted to have as customers. I realized the
size I wanted to grow to. I achieved that, and upon selling the business
had 275 apartment projects and companies as steady clients. I can remember
getting only one good contact from the yellow pages, that one being U-Haul
that I went on to do all their carport repair work for.

Most people who called me from the yellow pages were tirekickers, and
homeowners who cried when I told them how much I wanted to send a truck, two
experienced men and $25,000 worth of equipment to their house for a couple
of hours to fix their problems. And their conversation usually started
with, "I need you to come finish a job that some unlicensed person flaked
out on."

Referrals were the best. Good customers referring other good customers.
And managers that transferred from property to property, and called me from
each.

I did a good job. I was on time. I didn't overcharge. I guaranteed my
work 100%, and if there was a problem, it was put to the top of the list,
and I didn't tell people they had to wait a week.

The last year in business myself and one helper had a gross intake of $334k.
The man who bought the business went out into all directions of
modifications and new services and new things, bigger building, new car for
wifey, new trucks, and lasted three years before going bankrupt. He drove a
new truck every year, and advertised on TV, something I never considered.

Marketing is a great thing if you're selling advertising.

Steve

"Greg" wrote in message
This is a very self-serving bunch of information. No customer needs to
know any of it. They have a job to be done, and they can choose
whomever can do it competently, and at the best price. All of your
details are the business of the contractor, and if he can't manage
them, then he goes out of business. That is the nature of business.

You make a good point. It is the business of the contractor and no one here
should ever want to better understand what they are paying for and why they
are paying. We should never question authority or contractors. We should
never try to gain knowledge. I also thing we should take some of the TV
shows off the air that tell us how to do things on our own. Education is
evil.

Yep, I agree that the costs of running a professional business are
very high.
That factor along with the fact that the field has an ample percentage
of conmen and hacks has given rise to the DIY option.

New online HVAC sites are popping up left and right. Some even
promote a co-op arrangement where the homeowner does the rough in and
they find you a tech. for final connections/checkout. (just like
buying your tires at Tire Rack and taking them to the shop for
installation and in the process save a bundle).

R410A is making this easier by not requiring EPA licenses. (yes
venting is still illegal but most systems come precharged). New
refrigerant developments with no ODP and no greenhouse gas effect
could really accelerate this shift.

When you can buy and install the components for $2500 that a
contractor normally charges over $10,000 for then the economics will
shift an increasing portion of HVAC to DIY. (Throw in $1000 for misc.
tools and supplies and it's still a huge savings).

The next phase will be when a manufacturer steps up and offers simple
lineset connections and strikes a deal with Home Depot and Lowes. (ie
precharged/no brazing needed)

Steve B said:

Last year, I had to pay the big total of $7800 income tax. I drive a
$38k
new Dodge truck, which I was allowed to totally deduct last year as a
business expense. Almost every lunch I eat, all the gas I buy, and
every
meal I eat at a restaurant goes down as a business expense.


Gee, sounds like tax fraud to me.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
ups.com...
Steve B said:

Last year, I had to pay the big total of $7800 income tax. I drive a
$38k
new Dodge truck, which I was allowed to totally deduct last year as a
business expense. Almost every lunch I eat, all the gas I buy, and
every
meal I eat at a restaurant goes down as a business expense.


Gee, sounds like tax fraud to me.


Are you a tax expert? Where did you get your training? Do you have a
degree? Do you work with the IRS? Are you a tax professional?

Go to the library. Check out the book "101 Ways To Save Money On Your
Income Taxes." All legal. All will survive IRS scrutiny.

There are lots and lots of ways for Joe Six Pack to lessen their tax
obligation, but it involves learning the facts, and educating one's self.
It also involves keeping good records and understanding when there is an
advantage to buy something under the tax structure you fall into.

You posted several items that I wrote about. Which one, in particular do
you take issue with? Perhaps I can quote the proper tax law that pertains
to that issue.

If you want to discuss facts, bring it on.

Gee Willikers!

Steve

Steve, there are a lot of books written that claim you can reduce or
eliminate your tax liability, and sometimes the authors of those books
go to jail.

Simply put, a business expense is a business expense if it's genuinely
used for business. About the only way you could legitimately write
off most of your restaurant meals is if you're a food critic.

If you don't use your truck 100% for business, you can write off only
the percentage of it that's business use-- and there are, I believe, a
couple of ways to do that. But you can't simply say "Gee, since
occasionally I drive around to inspect the properties I own, my truck
is 100% deductible."

And the same goes for gas, and the other stuff you wrote about.

If you want to debate the legality of your deductions, sure-- explain
to everyone here how each meal you eat truly relates to your business.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
ps.com...
Steve, there are a lot of books written that claim you can reduce or
eliminate your tax liability, and sometimes the authors of those books
go to jail.

Simply put, a business expense is a business expense if it's genuinely
used for business. About the only way you could legitimately write
off most of your restaurant meals is if you're a food critic.

If you don't use your truck 100% for business, you can write off only
the percentage of it that's business use-- and there are, I believe, a
couple of ways to do that. But you can't simply say "Gee, since
occasionally I drive around to inspect the properties I own, my truck
is 100% deductible."

And the same goes for gas, and the other stuff you wrote about.

If you want to debate the legality of your deductions, sure-- explain
to everyone here how each meal you eat truly relates to your business.


To do that, I would have to reveal too much personal information. Just let
it be said that I am able to eat out a lot, and put it down as a business
expense. I deal with a lot of buyers. I deal with a lot of company reps.

My truck and expenses are mostly deductible because of the locations of my
properties. This year, a vehicle over 6,000# is deductible. I don't know
if this is a new thing this year or not. I go to pick up my taxes tomorrow,
and I will ask.

I pay a CPA to do my taxes each year, and that person is "creative" in doing
them, yet does NOT take anything that is not within the law. She also
advises me of things to do, not to do, or change for the upcoming year to
avoid pitfalls. She stays current on the changing tax laws. She works in
the same office as my CFP, so they can huddle on most every matter.

I do pay for this service. I'd just rather pay a CPA good bucks for good
advice rather than paying the IRS taxes that are not necessary.

My point is that every person can probably pay less taxes if they would just
either educate themselves, or have a professional who can give them good
counsel.

Steve

You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

**** that. I take ski trips, vacations....Everything.

It's all perfectly legal..... Mostly.

"B-Hate-Me" wrote in message
...

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

**** that. I take ski trips, vacations....Everything.

It's all perfectly legal..... Mostly.



This is hilarious.

Yesterday or the day before, I ran across a news article about how our
esteemed swine in Congress have found yet another way to get around the
toothless laws they passed regarding money and gifts from lobbyists. It's OK
for Lockheed or Exxon to give Senator Blowhard to Tahiti, to discuss
terrorism with various hotel bartenders. Meanwhile, someone in this
newsgroup will post probably another fourteen dozen messages, bitching about
your tax deductions, all of which are permitted, but are buried in a big fat
book.

Too bad libraries are so hard to walk into, ya know? And those
books.....full of sharp edges and germs.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

Now, next, if you would like, I can give you medical advice and opinion
based on my current health, conditions, treatments, and prescriptions.

That would make as much sense as me giving out tax advice to people based on
MY particular situation.

As I said, a CPA does my taxes, and IIRC, that will be $1600 this year. For
that, I have a contract that says they will go with me to any audit, or
answer any questions on how they arrived at their totals, and will pay any
additional charges by the IRS.

Now, let's move on to the medical, shall we?

Steve

"B-Hate-Me" wrote in message
...

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

**** that. I take ski trips, vacations....Everything.

It's all perfectly legal..... Mostly.


It's available to everyone. It's just that most people won't take the time
to find out, or can't grasp the information.

Ski trips? I think I will have the next corporate session at a ski resort.

Steve

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

Uh huh.... and just exactly how long have you been in business??
are you incorporated??
or a sole propriator??
how many times have you been audited by the IRS??
by your state tax commission??

Before you spout a bunch more crap, maybe you should walk a mile in out
shoes??

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"B-Hate-Me" wrote in message
...

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
You said you deducted ALL your gas, ALL your meals, all of your
truck... the general guideline is whether your meals and travel are
actually business-related. If you occasionally hire your friend, and
you two eat out five times a week, those meals aren't really a
business expense.

But I'll leave it between you, your accountant, the IRS and possibly a
judge and jury.

**** that. I take ski trips, vacations....Everything.

It's all perfectly legal..... Mostly.



This is hilarious.

Yesterday or the day before, I ran across a news article about how our
esteemed swine in Congress have found yet another way to get around the
toothless laws they passed regarding money and gifts from lobbyists. It's
OK for Lockheed or Exxon to give Senator Blowhard to Tahiti, to discuss
terrorism with various hotel bartenders. Meanwhile, someone in this
newsgroup will post probably another fourteen dozen messages, bitching
about your tax deductions, all of which are permitted, but are buried in a
big fat book.

Too bad libraries are so hard to walk into, ya know? And those
books.....full of sharp edges and germs.


And, as most newsgroup people would write, "Their so hard to reed, two."

Priceless.

Steve

On 14 Feb 2007 19:18:20 -0800, "Shaun Eli"
wrote:

Steve, there are a lot of books written that claim you can reduce or
eliminate your tax liability, and sometimes the authors of those books
go to jail.

Simply put, a business expense is a business expense if it's genuinely
used for business. About the only way you could legitimately write
off most of your restaurant meals is if you're a food critic.

If you don't use your truck 100% for business, you can write off only
the percentage of it that's business use-- and there are, I believe, a
couple of ways to do that. But you can't simply say "Gee, since
occasionally I drive around to inspect the properties I own, my truck
is 100% deductible."


You wouldn't be allowed to deduct the whole thing in
one year, anyway. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty
sure that vehicals depreciate over either 5 or 7 years.

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On 14 Feb 2007 19:18:20 -0800, "Shaun Eli"
wrote:

Steve, there are a lot of books written that claim you can reduce or
eliminate your tax liability, and sometimes the authors of those books
go to jail.

Simply put, a business expense is a business expense if it's genuinely
used for business. About the only way you could legitimately write
off most of your restaurant meals is if you're a food critic.

If you don't use your truck 100% for business, you can write off only
the percentage of it that's business use-- and there are, I believe, a
couple of ways to do that. But you can't simply say "Gee, since
occasionally I drive around to inspect the properties I own, my truck
is 100% deductible."


You wouldn't be allowed to deduct the whole thing in
one year, anyway. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty
sure that vehicals depreciate over either 5 or 7 years.


I thought so, too. But last week, when we met, the CPA asked questions
about this previous year. One was if we had purchased a business vehicle
that was over 6,000# in weight. I, too, expected it to be depreciated. We
paid cash, so maybe that is the difference. As I said, we are leaving in an
hour or so to go pick up the papers, and I shall ask.

Perhaps it may help someone with their tax burden this year. That is, IF
anyone here (excluding the few open minded individuals we already know) are
interested in paying less in taxes. Legally, and not by evading, or doing
anything that the IRS would not normally allow.

Just the facts, Maam. And nothing against you, (for I know you are an above
average intelligence poster based on your past posts) but I hate words like,
"should", and "I'm pretty sure", and "maybe", especially when applied in
financial, medical, or critical situations.

I'll post this evening after my appointments are completed. Taxes .....
business ....... doctor ........ Oh, yeah. I may take my CPA to lunch.

Business, you know ............... ;-)

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On 14 Feb 2007 19:18:20 -0800, "Shaun Eli"
wrote:

Steve, there are a lot of books written that claim you can reduce or
eliminate your tax liability, and sometimes the authors of those books
go to jail.

Simply put, a business expense is a business expense if it's genuinely
used for business. About the only way you could legitimately write
off most of your restaurant meals is if you're a food critic.

If you don't use your truck 100% for business, you can write off only
the percentage of it that's business use-- and there are, I believe, a
couple of ways to do that. But you can't simply say "Gee, since
occasionally I drive around to inspect the properties I own, my truck
is 100% deductible."


You wouldn't be allowed to deduct the whole thing in
one year, anyway. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty
sure that vehicals depreciate over either 5 or 7 years.


I thought so, too. But last week, when we met, the CPA asked questions
about this previous year. One was if we had purchased a business vehicle
that was over 6,000# in weight.


The weight - that's a clue. There was a stupid deduction for big trucks -
not sure if it was phased out. The law was purchased by the auto industry.
There may still be remnants of it.

"Goedjn" wrote

You wouldn't be allowed to deduct the whole thing in
one year, anyway. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty
sure that vehicals depreciate over either 5 or 7 years.


Look up Section 179. Yes, you can deduct the whole thing in one year if it
is over 6,000#. BUT, when you sell the vehicle, the value of the vehicle at
time of sale has to be determined, and compared with the depreciation
schedule to see if you get charged back for some of the original deduction.

Just got that from the CPA today, and I'm "pretty sure" of that. She used
to work for the IRS.

Steve

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote

The weight - that's a clue. There was a stupid deduction for big trucks -
not sure if it was phased out. The law was purchased by the auto industry.
There may still be remnants of it.

Just got back from the tax lady. IRS Section 179 governs this, and it is in
full force and effect. It is not a new law, either. Of these things I am
"sure."

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
news

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote

The weight - that's a clue. There was a stupid deduction for big trucks -
not sure if it was phased out. The law was purchased by the auto
industry. There may still be remnants of it.

Just got back from the tax lady. IRS Section 179 governs this, and it is
in full force and effect. It is not a new law, either. Of these things I
am "sure."

Steve


OK. I'm vague on this, but there was chatter about changing the tax law,
eliminating vehicles which are clearly recreational, only purchased by
neurosurgeons for their children. Like Hummers. It was the subject of lots
of buzz last year, when gas prices were ramping up.