I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that could
be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and charge
the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a contractor to
replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized list. One of the
items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for less then $50. I was
quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a 3-piece unit. I could have
bought the parts at Home Depot for less then $500. The quote also said that
it would take a week for demo...I did it in a few hours of my spare time,
and thats without using the proper tools. I ended up doing the job myself.
I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath surround, tile floor, new light fixtures
and plumbing fixtures for the tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp
sub-panel in the garage, ran 3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office.
(the second 20 amp for the tub is for a possible expansion in the future if
I ever decide to buy a heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but
they are slightly more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a
ceiling fan in my office. The building permits for everything cost me less
to $100. The total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building
inspector even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most
contractors work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the cost
of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor tell
me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even show up
to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have to take
time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't even show
up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money! I will hire
the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an appointment for a
few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an appointment and never shows
up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I saw
a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one if the
guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping around. I can
understand charging a little more if the guy wants to watch...maybe an extra
hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in answering some questions.
Does it really matter if someone watches or checks in on you, at least the
CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good job. Or is it that the contractors
don't want their customers to see their hack job and get scared away? See,
I am an engineer, I am used to having people cooperate and double check
eachothers work. I will probably never hire a contractor to do work that I
know anything about. I know that they will hate me for being too anal. I
EXPECT the work to be done AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily upgradable
or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are on one 15 amp
circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual circuit in each
room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business, they
should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too much.
To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from auto
mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

Nathan inspired greatness with:

I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that could
be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and charge
the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a contractor to
replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized list. One of the
items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for less then $50. I was
quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a 3-piece unit. I could have
bought the parts at Home Depot for less then $500. The quote also said that
it would take a week for demo...I did it in a few hours of my spare time,
and thats without using the proper tools. I ended up doing the job myself.
I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath surround, tile floor, new light fixtures
and plumbing fixtures for the tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp
sub-panel in the garage, ran 3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office.
(the second 20 amp for the tub is for a possible expansion in the future if
I ever decide to buy a heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but
they are slightly more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a
ceiling fan in my office. The building permits for everything cost me less
to $100. The total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building
inspector even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most
contractors work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the cost
of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor tell
me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even show up
to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have to take
time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't even show
up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money! I will hire
the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an appointment for a
few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an appointment and never shows
up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I saw
a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one if the
guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping around. I can
understand charging a little more if the guy wants to watch...maybe an extra
hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in answering some questions.
Does it really matter if someone watches or checks in on you, at least the
CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good job. Or is it that the contractors
don't want their customers to see their hack job and get scared away? See,
I am an engineer, I am used to having people cooperate and double check
eachothers work. I will probably never hire a contractor to do work that I
know anything about. I know that they will hate me for being too anal. I
EXPECT the work to be done AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily upgradable
or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are on one 15 amp
circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual circuit in each
room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business, they
should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too much.
To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from auto
mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.



Let me get back to you in two weeks with an answer. You will be
charged for this online consultation of course, it's $75. Thank You
for your patronage.

All that being said, you need to quit your job at Goldman-Sachs and become a
contractor





"Nathan" wrote in message
...
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot for less then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for demo...I did it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the proper tools.
I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the garage, ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second 20 amp for the
tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever decide to buy a
heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a ceiling fan in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less to $100. The
total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building inspector
even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most contractors
work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer, I am used to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I will probably
never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything about. I know
that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the work to be done
AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

"Nathan" wrote in message
...


So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do such a good job,
when in my experience it is utterly false.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

You has some bad experiences, and yes, there are many sleazy contractors.
There are also many very good ones. They are honest, charge fair prices,
make a fair profit, use good materials, do quality work.

As for estimating, I have no idea how some come up with the prices. I just
had a big siding job done. The bids were $81,000, $48,000, and $41,000. Any
one of the three could have done the job, but that is a huge difference in
price, mostly for labor as they were all using similar priced material.
After the job was done, the contractor happily took the final check, but did
say he had about $1500 in unanticipated costs. (he had to rent a lift for
two days because his pump jack did not go high enough for one section)

I just had my sewer line repaired. It took six hours, involved the town,
the power company, backhoe, etc. I never even saw the contractor but talked
with him on the phone. I was at work when the job was done. I just got the
bill last night and was anticipating about $3000. It was $1300. This is a
very reputable company with a golden opportunity to make a few bucks as it
was not bid and is being paid for by the power company. He charged a very
fair price.

HAHAHA I actually like my job. I have considered gardener work. You know
those guys charge $80 a month or more. Thats like $20 each time they show
up, and they only stay about 20-30 minutes. That puts their wage at around
$40 an hour. Plus most don't pay any taxes, that raises their pay to maybe
$60 an hour. I wonder how many are on food stamps and other taxpayer
subsidies while paying nothing in taxes...shoot some even file false tax
returns and get tax refunds. If I was a total scumbag I would do it, but I
wouldn't be able to live with myself. I will take the honest path in life.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
All that being said, you need to quit your job at Goldman-Sachs and become
a contractor





"Nathan" wrote in message
...
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with
full price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My
nephew witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot for less then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for demo...I did it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the proper
tools. I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the garage, ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second 20 amp for
the tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever decide to buy
a heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a ceiling fan in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less to $100.
The total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building
inspector even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most
contractors work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors
do such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer, I am used to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I will
probably never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything about.
I know that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the work to
be done AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could
find reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots
of people will stick with a fair and honest business.

Were you breast fed?

cm

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot for less then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for demo...I did it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the proper tools.
I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the garage, ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second 20 amp for the
tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever decide to buy a
heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a ceiling fan in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less to $100. The
total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building inspector
even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most contractors
work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer, I am used to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I will probably
never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything about. I know
that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the work to be done
AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot for less then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for demo...I did it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the proper tools.
I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the garage, ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second 20 amp for the
tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever decide to buy a
heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a ceiling fan in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less to $100. The
total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building inspector
even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most contractors
work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer, I am used to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I will probably
never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything about. I know
that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the work to be done
AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

Totally agree with Nathan. Why on earth should contractors actually
be allowed to make a profit? Some of them even can afford vacations.
A few even send their kids to college, if you can believe that. And
why should they be allowed to save for retirement? And then there's
grocery stores. Did you know that when you buy a jug of milk for say
3 bucks, that the store didn't pay that much for it and is actually
making a profit? That really burns me.

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

snipped rambling nonsense


What do YOU do for a living?

Nathan wrote:
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT*
get their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up,
that could be as much as 50% or more.


So why should you care? If you are getting estimates as you should and
getting the lowest possible price for the job, why should you care how the
contractor makes his money or how much he makes? If you do your part of the
job, finding a good contractor and having him compete for the job how is
that more or less fair that what the grocery market charges or a doctor or
any other service or product you buy.

I guess using your logic GM should lower the price of their cars if the
price of steel drops.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

HAHAHA DAMN Right!!!

gees people, did you actually read the whole message. I said they deserve
to make a profit, but not any insane profit on a single job. One of my
friend's dad had a job in the construction business. He only worked 6
months of the year and took the rest of the year off. I wish I could only
work 6 months of the year and get a full year's pay!

Get a decent profit and have steady work throughout the year...that seems
fair enough.


"marson" wrote in message
ups.com...


Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with
full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My
nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In
my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot for less
then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for demo...I did
it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the proper
tools.
I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the garage,
ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second 20 amp for
the
tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever decide to buy a
heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a ceiling fan
in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less to $100.
The
total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building
inspector
even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most
contractors
work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even
meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor
that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors
do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors
even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I
have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely
won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is
money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes?
If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he
will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the
customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price,
one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer, I am used
to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I will
probably
never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything about. I know
that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the work to be
done
AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house
are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far
too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could
find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

Totally agree with Nathan. Why on earth should contractors actually
be allowed to make a profit? Some of them even can afford vacations.
A few even send their kids to college, if you can believe that. And
why should they be allowed to save for retirement? And then there's
grocery stores. Did you know that when you buy a jug of milk for say
3 bucks, that the store didn't pay that much for it and is actually
making a profit? That really burns me.

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
HAHAHA DAMN Right!!!

gees people, did you actually read the whole message. I said they deserve
to make a profit, but not any insane profit on a single job. One of my
friend's dad had a job in the construction business. He only worked 6
months of the year and took the rest of the year off. I wish I could only
work 6 months of the year and get a full year's pay!

Get a decent profit and have steady work throughout the year...that seems
fair enough.


What do you do for a living?

"Nathan" wrote in message
gees people, did you actually read the whole message. I said they deserve
to make a profit, but not any insane profit on a single job. One of my
friend's dad had a job in the construction business. He only worked 6
months of the year and took the rest of the year off. I wish I could only
work 6 months of the year and get a full year's pay!

If you were a school teacher you'd be close. How about life guard? Ice cram
truck sales? How much did the six month contractor make compared to other
workers? You may think $90,000 is a year's pay and work 12 months to earn
it, but another may earn $20,000 in six months and live the year on it.

Why not just quit your job and become a contractor?

Maybe I'm in the wrong area, but I am not aware of these 80%
discounts anywhere in the construction process. As a matter of
fact, homeowners and DIY can get a cheaper price at Home Depot
than builders tend to get at real lumber yards. Beware of quality
issues.

A typical builder's discount is 1 1/2% if he pays his bill before
the tenth. I guess I'll have to ask my suppliers why I'm not
getting this discount you perceive.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Nathan" wrote in message
...
HAHAHA DAMN Right!!!

gees people, did you actually read the whole message. I said
they deserve to make a profit, but not any insane profit on a
single job. One of my friend's dad had a job in the
construction business. He only worked 6 months of the year and
took the rest of the year off. I wish I could only work 6
months of the year and get a full year's pay!

Get a decent profit and have steady work throughout the
year...that seems fair enough.


"marson" wrote in message
ups.com...


Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers
*MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked
up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a
receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging
$20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make
money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an
hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an
estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted
an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the
permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the
bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot
for less then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for
demo...I did it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the
proper tools.
I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub,
tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing
fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the
garage, ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second
20 amp for the
tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever
decide to buy a
heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they
are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a
ceiling fan in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less
to $100. The
total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The
building inspector
even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then
most contractors
work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and
pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done
better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that
don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building
contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the
contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one
contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10
contractors even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be
there. I have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that
likely won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that
time is money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't
make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that
makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest
quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I
believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge
the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make
a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on
this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one
normal price, one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be
shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy
wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of
wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone
watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are
doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their
customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer,
I am used to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I
will probably
never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything
about. I know
that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the
work to be done
AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they
can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't
plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things
easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in
my house are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an
individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a
business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and
cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and
cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and
if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I
think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

Totally agree with Nathan. Why on earth should contractors
actually
be allowed to make a profit? Some of them even can afford
vacations.
A few even send their kids to college, if you can believe that.
And
why should they be allowed to save for retirement? And then
there's
grocery stores. Did you know that when you buy a jug of milk
for say
3 bucks, that the store didn't pay that much for it and is
actually
making a profit? That really burns me.

I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's. Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no work. I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive cut
throat buesiness out there.

I forgot the most important thing You have to deal with people like you

I have my own service business, its demanding and I am NOT rich

Yet people look at my hourly rate and freak, at just under a 100 bucks
a hour I am the cheapest one around.

vehicle expenses, stocking parts, the list of costs is endless.

Used to be suppliers gave discounts to dealers but that has largely
stopped.

home contractors appear to be squeezed the same way

On Feb 10, 11:00 am, "Sacramento Dave" wrote:
I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's. Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no work. I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive cut
throat buesiness out there.

You said "bidding work You never get" 3 times,,Yer not gonna charge
triple for that are Ya?!?! LOL,,,just kidding,,I do some subbing
Myself and get what Ya mean..
I believe that some Folks are on this group to both help and be
helped,,including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith
and realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for
Themselves and Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the
"Goodguy" catagory..
My philosophy is to trust people,,,I trust them to do exactly what
people do,,,it ai'nt always nice these things They do but fore-warned
and fore-armed pretty-much works everywhere and all day too..
I can see this thread gettin reeeeaaaal interesting..
Dean
Dean

"Dean" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 10, 11:00 am, "Sacramento Dave" wrote:
I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You
nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a
contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's.
Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find
good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work
that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no work.
I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up
doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive
cut
throat buesiness out there.

You said "bidding work You never get" 3 times,,Yer not gonna charge
triple for that are Ya?!?! LOL,,,just kidding,,I do some subbing
Myself and get what Ya mean..
I believe that some Folks are on this group to both help and be
helped,,including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith
and realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for
Themselves and Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the
"Goodguy" catagory..
My philosophy is to trust people,,,I trust them to do exactly what
people do,,,it ai'nt always nice these things They do but fore-warned
and fore-armed pretty-much works everywhere and all day too..
I can see this thread gettin reeeeaaaal interesting..
Dean
Dean


Speaking of funny writing:

" ...including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith and
realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for Themselves and
Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the "Goodguy" catagory.."

No need to capitalize contractors, themselves, others, profession or
goodguy, unless you had the grammar confused with German.

Nathan wrote:
HAHAHA DAMN Right!!!

gees people, did you actually read the whole message. I said they
deserve to make a profit, but not any insane profit on a single job. One
of my friend's dad had a job in the construction business. He
only worked 6 months of the year and took the rest of the year off. I wish
I could only work 6 months of the year and get a full year's
pay!
Get a decent profit and have steady work throughout the year...that
seems fair enough.


You neglected to mention that the six months he didn't work were snow
months.

Be rational - if contractors made an "insane" profit, EVERYBODY would be a
contractor.

On Feb 10, 11:00 am, "Sacramento Dave" wrote:
I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's. Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no work. I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive cut
throat buesiness out there.

I was in business for 17 years and THIS is the real side of it!!!!
and here is more!What about sick days we never get paid for, no
Holiday pay, Hey, " If I'm not happy with your job I'm not paying "
customer, and they really don't pay you. Other things are If people
don't like your work and you try to take them to court, The court cost
is more than the whole job. Oh I forgot I pay for my own company
truck. I own my OWN stock also. lol I could keep going but I don't
miss it that much to keep on! I am working at Lowes as a sales
specialist now!

Your right it's not just Contracting it a lot of buenesess large and small.
This is my faovrite line " you have my money wehere is my service?" I came
up with that after buying window from Home Crapo

On Feb 10, 11:43 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Dean" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Feb 10, 11:00 am, "Sacramento Dave" wrote:
I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You
nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a
contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's.
Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find
good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work
that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no work.
I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up
doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive
cut
throat buesiness out there.

You said "bidding work You never get" 3 times,,Yer not gonna charge
triple for that are Ya?!?! LOL,,,just kidding,,I do some subbing
Myself and get what Ya mean..
I believe that some Folks are on this group to both help and be
helped,,including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith
and realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for
Themselves and Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the
"Goodguy" catagory..
My philosophy is to trust people,,,I trust them to do exactly what
people do,,,it ai'nt always nice these things They do but fore-warned
and fore-armed pretty-much works everywhere and all day too..
I can see this thread gettin reeeeaaaal interesting..
Dean
Dean

Speaking of funny writing:

" ...including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith and
realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for Themselves and
Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the "Goodguy" catagory.."

No need to capitalize contractors, themselves, others, profession or
goodguy, unless you had the grammar confused with German.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess Yer just not in the mood to be agreed(or joked) with so I'm
gonna go slap some mud on the wall and have a GOOD day instead..LOL.
Do genetics affect spelling?I am about 1/2 German..*grin*
Dean

"Dean" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 10, 11:43 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Dean" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Feb 10, 11:00 am, "Sacramento Dave" wrote:
I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You
nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a
contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's.
Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you
never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching
about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just
doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find
good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work
that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no
work.
I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up
doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive
cut
throat buesiness out there.

You said "bidding work You never get" 3 times,,Yer not gonna charge
triple for that are Ya?!?! LOL,,,just kidding,,I do some subbing
Myself and get what Ya mean..
I believe that some Folks are on this group to both help and be
helped,,including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith
and realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for
Themselves and Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the
"Goodguy" catagory..
My philosophy is to trust people,,,I trust them to do exactly what
people do,,,it ai'nt always nice these things They do but fore-warned
and fore-armed pretty-much works everywhere and all day too..
I can see this thread gettin reeeeaaaal interesting..
Dean
Dean

Speaking of funny writing:

" ...including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith and
realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for Themselves and
Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the "Goodguy" catagory.."

No need to capitalize contractors, themselves, others, profession or
goodguy, unless you had the grammar confused with German.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess Yer just not in the mood to be agreed(or joked) with so I'm
gonna go slap some mud on the wall and have a GOOD day instead..LOL.
Do genetics affect spelling?I am about 1/2 German..*grin*
Dean


Well, I was just razzing you, because you noticed that the other guy
repeated repeated repeated himSelf 3 times. :-) Now, I'm going cross country
skiing and pretending I like it because the GF won't stop nagging me unless
I go.

I agree with most here who believe you are evil. You want something
for nothing.

Also, you are way too quick to condemn everyone but you to minimum
wage for life.

I will pray for you.




On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:47:26 -0800, "Nathan" wrote:

I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that could
be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and charge
the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a contractor to
replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized list. One of the
items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for less then $50. I was
quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a 3-piece unit. I could have
bought the parts at Home Depot for less then $500. The quote also said that
it would take a week for demo...I did it in a few hours of my spare time,
and thats without using the proper tools. I ended up doing the job myself.
I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath surround, tile floor, new light fixtures
and plumbing fixtures for the tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp
sub-panel in the garage, ran 3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office.
(the second 20 amp for the tub is for a possible expansion in the future if
I ever decide to buy a heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but
they are slightly more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a
ceiling fan in my office. The building permits for everything cost me less
to $100. The total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building
inspector even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most
contractors work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the cost
of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor tell
me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even show up
to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have to take
time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't even show
up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money! I will hire
the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an appointment for a
few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an appointment and never shows
up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I saw
a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one if the
guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping around. I can
understand charging a little more if the guy wants to watch...maybe an extra
hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in answering some questions.
Does it really matter if someone watches or checks in on you, at least the
CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good job. Or is it that the contractors
don't want their customers to see their hack job and get scared away? See,
I am an engineer, I am used to having people cooperate and double check
eachothers work. I will probably never hire a contractor to do work that I
know anything about. I know that they will hate me for being too anal. I
EXPECT the work to be done AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily upgradable
or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are on one 15 amp
circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual circuit in each
room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business, they
should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too much.
To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from auto
mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

On Feb 10, 6:47 am, "Nathan" wrote:

....snip rambling diatribe...

Regarding the subject question the "trick" is to be a contractor.

On Feb 10, 12:28 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Dean" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Feb 10, 11:43 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Dean" wrote in message

roups.com...

On Feb 10, 11:00 am, "Sacramento Dave" wrote:
I love people like you, You have the balls to tell it like it is, You
nail
up one stud so you can build the whole house. Why you should be a
contractor
there's nothing to it, Just pick up a phone book look how many rich
contractors there are. But before you buy those magnetic stick on's.
Factor
this in Overhead. Insurance, Workman's Comp., Bidding work that you
never
get, not getting paid, People beating you to death, People Bitching
about
every extra ( Bet you no that one) Sitting home because work just
doesn't
jump threw the phone. Bidding work that you never get, trying to find
good
employees, employees that even no what a 40 hour week is, Bidding work
that
you never get, Trying to keep your good employees when you have no
work.
I
could go on & on & on In my seven years of contracting I never cheated
anyone had very few problems with customers, Most the time I ended up
doing
more jobs for them. But the bottom line it's about the most competive
cut
throat buesiness out there.

You said "bidding work You never get" 3 times,,Yer not gonna charge
triple for that are Ya?!?! LOL,,,just kidding,,I do some subbing
Myself and get what Ya mean..
I believe that some Folks are on this group to both help and be
helped,,including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith
and realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for
Themselves and Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the
"Goodguy" catagory..
My philosophy is to trust people,,,I trust them to do exactly what
people do,,,it ai'nt always nice these things They do but fore-warned
and fore-armed pretty-much works everywhere and all day too..
I can see this thread gettin reeeeaaaal interesting..
Dean
Dean

Speaking of funny writing:

" ...including Contractors that freely give advice in good faith and
realizing the possibility They may be losing some work for Themselves and
Others in the Proffession..I guess They fall in the "Goodguy" catagory.."

No need to capitalize contractors, themselves, others, profession or
goodguy, unless you had the grammar confused with German.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess Yer just not in the mood to be agreed(or joked) with so I'm
gonna go slap some mud on the wall and have a GOOD day instead..LOL.
Do genetics affect spelling?I am about 1/2 German..*grin*
Dean

Well, I was just razzing you, because you noticed that the other guy
repeated repeated repeated himSelf 3 times. :-) Now, I'm going cross country
skiing and pretending I like it because the GF won't stop nagging me unless
I go.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

LOL,,ok,,I like it here again..Whoever said "this group rocks" hit
it right on the money..

Nathan wrote:
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount?

Just go to the county office building & file a d/b/a "Nathan's
Construction".

There. Now you are a contractor. Go to Lowes & get the 50% off.

Rob

HAHAHA successful trolling!

Actually, In all due respect, you guys are probably the good guys and if
all the contractors were like you, the world would be a better place. You
guys are volunteering your time to help DIYers like myself out. I applaud
that and wish you all the best.

But in my defense, I have had bad luck with contractors...a lot of people
have, thats why there are stories on the news telling people to always
verify contractors and check their past work. I know it isn't just
contractors, it seems like most people are pretty scummy. Very few people
actually do live up to their word. I always try to be honest and straight
forward, maybe I have a big sign on my head that says young rich yuppie that
makes people want to take advantage of me. I do my honest work and live
reasonably. I can only afford to take a vacation once every few years or
so, so I am no rich boy.

As an example, I have had a couple of gardeners. I was willing and happy to
pay the money, but they always slacked off and never finished what they
agreed to. If thats the case, I am willing to save the money and do it
myself. I know the job is done better and I get some exercise.

More of a direct example for you guys. I called 8 contractors to get
estimates to replace the tub. 1 said that he was too busy and couldn't
handle it. I RESPECT that and would probably give the guy a call in the
future if I find something beyond my capabilities. 5 of them said they
would be there...I took time off work and they never showed up. My time is
money too. I will NEVER call those guys again. One guy made it a point to
say that his time was money and to make sure that I was there. He even
called the day before to check and the day of the appointment. When I give
my word, I will be there, so I didn't like his constant nagging. Granted he
probably had the reverse of my experience. Two others came as agreed but
several hours late. Only one guy felt decent, but he was also the highest
bid. Maybe $5k is about right to replace a tub, but it seems alfully high
when the 3-piece tub only cost $300 at HD. A day to demo and a day or two
to put things back. When he provided an itemized pricing and I saw $500 for
the permit and a week to demo, I knew he was lying somewhere and I decided
against him.

I decided it was worth it do do the job myself. In the process I learned a
heck of a lot more about electrical work and tiling and plumbing. By the
way I was able to demo the tub in a few hours, so 1 week is a gross
over-exageration. I also upgraded to a jacuzzi tub and added a sub-panel in
the garage, all for about $2k. Would I do it again...I don't know If I
know that I could have a contractor do the job as well as I did, I would
probably pay the $5k. If I expect to see the same garbage workmanship that
I have seen from the home builders, I certainly would not. How do you know
who is going to do the good quality work?


"trainfan1" wrote in message
et...
Nathan wrote:
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount?

Just go to the county office building & file a d/b/a "Nathan's
Construction".

There. Now you are a contractor. Go to Lowes & get the 50% off.

Rob

In article ,
says...

But in my defense, I have had bad luck with contractors...a lot of people
have, thats why there are stories on the news telling people to always
verify contractors and check their past work. I know it isn't just
contractors, it seems like most people are pretty scummy.

An analogous news headline recently -- at an industry convention,
auto sales people agreed one of their biggest problems is that
customers aren't truthful with them. I must say I was shocked, just
shocked, to read that.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

If I don't like the sound of a potential customer on the phone I don't call
them back or I tell them I am too busy. If I go to their home to bid a job
and decide I don't like them I either give them a very high estimate or
never call them back.

I don't know of any business in Arizona giving a 50% discount on materials.
The highest I get is 10% but typically only 5%. Most likely I could get it
even cheaper someplace else but I buy there out of convenience or loyalty.
We currently bill our customers $50.00 an hour and I am lucky to make
$40,000 per year by the time I pay my overhead. There are rarely 8 billable
hours per day, I don't get paid sick leave or vacation, in 18 years I have
never been stiffed on an invoice. I have walked off a job without charging a
dime because the customer was a PIA or their house was gross.

I may be totally wrong on this but by reading your post I would not likely
work for you. But then we also might be best buddies????

Good luck,

cm



"Nathan" wrote in message
...
I saw this thread from over a year ago. It brought up some issues.

Why are so many of the contractors upset that DIY customers *MIGHT* get
their precious contractor discount? From what I have looked up, that
could be as much as 50% or more.

I have heard that some stores will give the contractor a receipt with full
price, say $80 for gardening supplies, while only charging $20. My nephew
witnesses this.

Why do the contractors need to use scumbag methods to make money? In my
area, they just pick up cheap labor off the street for $5 an hour and
charge the customer $70+ an hour for labor. I got an estimate from a
contractor to replace my bathtub a few years ago. I wanted an itemized
list. One of the items was the permit...at $500! I got the permit for
less then $50. I was quoted $5k and 4k to replace the bathtub with a
3-piece unit. I could have bought the parts at Home Depot for less then
$500. The quote also said that it would take a week for demo...I did it
in a few hours of my spare time, and thats without using the proper tools.
I ended up doing the job myself. I put in a jacuzzi tub, tile bath
surround, tile floor, new light fixtures and plumbing fixtures for the
tub/shower and sink. I also added a 100amp sub-panel in the garage, ran
3-20amp lines, 2 to the tub, one to the office. (the second 20 amp for the
tub is for a possible expansion in the future if I ever decide to buy a
heating unit) The 20 amp circuits are overkill, but they are slightly
more efficient then using 15 amp circuits. I even added a ceiling fan in
my office. The building permits for everything cost me less to $100. The
total cost of the entire project was around $2k. The building inspector
even asked who did the work...he said it was BETTER then most contractors
work.

So I can waste a month of weekends, get a huge upgrade and pay half the
cost of a contractor, and I know that the work is done better then most
contractors! I have seen several areas of my house that don't even meet
building codes, and that is how it came from the building contractor that
built the place. So why do I keep seeing messages that the contractors do
such a good job, when in my experience it is utterly false.

I always see the message that time is money. I even had one contractor
tell me that on the phone. Why is it that maybe 3 in 10 contractors even
show up to make estimates even when they say they will be there. I have
to take time off work to sit around and wait for a guy that likely won't
even show up...HAH and they have the nerve to tell me that time is money!
I will hire the guy that tells me that he is busy and can't make an
appointment for a few months. I WON'T hire the guy that makes an
appointment and never shows up. MY time IS MONEY too buddy.

Why is it so hard for the contractors to use fair and honest quotes? If
someone lies to me in a quote, I won't hire him because I believe he will
lie in other areas.

I know that many contractors buy a little extra and charge the customer,
then they can use the extra supplies in the next job to make a bit more
profit.

So whats with the attitude of some of the contractors on this board. I
saw a message that most contractors have 3 prices, one normal price, one
if the guy wants to watch, one for someone that seems to be shopping
around. I can understand charging a little more if the guy wants to
watch...maybe an extra hundred bucks or so for a bit of wasted time in
answering some questions. Does it really matter if someone watches or
checks in on you, at least the CUSTOMER can see if you are doing a good
job. Or is it that the contractors don't want their customers to see
their hack job and get scared away? See, I am an engineer, I am used to
having people cooperate and double check eachothers work. I will probably
never hire a contractor to do work that I know anything about. I know
that they will hate me for being too anal. I EXPECT the work to be done
AT LEAST as well as I can do it.

The home builders use the cheapest garbage components they can find and
build for the cheapest cost and most profit...they don't plan much for
future expansion, it doesn't cost much more to make things easily
upgradable or easy to replace in the future. 3 bedrooms in my house are
on one 15 amp circuit! Thats utter crap. It should be an individual
circuit in each room...BAH enough of this rant.

How many contractors out there are actually honest? It is a business,
they should be making money, but it seems like they lie and cheat far too
much. To be fair, in my experience, most businesses lie and cheat, from
auto mechanics to PC repair shops. It shouldn't be so and if I could find
reasonably priced honest businesses, I would use them. I think lots of
people will stick with a fair and honest business.

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
HAHAHA successful trolling!


What do you do for a living? It must be something embarrassing. I've asked
twice and you refuse to answer. Are you on permanent disability because you
got scared by a hornet when you were 8 years old?

Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes to
over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier. Didn't I say that
I was an engineer in the original post? I was tired and a bit grumpy when I
wrote that first post.

I get a bit ticked off whenever I have to fix anything in the house, it
seems like the builder cut every corner imaginable...I am surprised the
house passed inspections. I'll wager the building inspector was getting his
palm greased by the builder to look the other way. I have to change out
much more then I should to be able to fix/upgrade anything. Houses should
be built to be easily maintained in the future. I mapped out a schematic of
the house and all the electrical circuits...1/3 of the house is on one
circuit. There is no room to add any extra outlets and still be safe.
Every room should be on an individual circuit. One room can have 3
different circuits in it...that is very bad engineering.

gees, just assume the worst because someone has a bad perspective and a
stereotype of a group of people...HAHAHA

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Nathan" wrote in message
...
HAHAHA successful trolling!


What do you do for a living? It must be something embarrassing. I've asked
twice and you refuse to answer. Are you on permanent disability because
you got scared by a hornet when you were 8 years old?

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes to
over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier. Didn't I say
that I was an engineer in the original post? I was tired and a bit grumpy
when I wrote that first post.


OK. An engineer. If you make more than $24,538.92 per year, I think your
profit margin is too high. I know it's an arbitrary number, but what the
hell? This whole thread's about arbitrary numbers, right?

RIGHT?

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes to
over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier.

Then, if you're so smart, what in the world are you doing working for a
living? Seems someone as smart as you would already have things figured
out, and have the world working for HIM.

No?

sigh ........................

Steve

Sorry Steve, You need money to make money. I will likely be retired by 30
and living off the stock market.


"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes
to over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier.

Then, if you're so smart, what in the world are you doing working for a
living? Seems someone as smart as you would already have things figured
out, and have the world working for HIM.

No?

sigh ........................

Steve

The reason that I had an attitude from the beginning was that I read posts
from contractors that seemed to have big chips on their shoulders.

What kind of loser is going to say something like they will never shop at a
store that gives their contractor discount to regular customers. What do
you care about how a company decides to do business. Perhaps those losers
like to be subsidized by the customer.

Why do some contractors make false bills and get fake receipts from supply
stores? HUH, they are looking for ways to charge their customers more
money. Just tell the truth. Bill honestly. Say that parts cost X and
labor costs Y and possibly that overhead costs Z. Then the customers can
compare the different proposals. You could also throw in one more column
that gives likely buffers for problems that shoddy workmanship created. If
you start to work and find problems that were hidden, then charge the
customer that extra amount. If there are no hidden surprises, then tell the
customers that they will get a discount. I think people would like that.

"Hugh Glass" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:06:22 -0800, "Nathan" wrote:

Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes to
over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier.

AH HAH!
There it is. The answer to your question!
You suppose you had a hard time getting someone because you already
knew how to do it better?



I get a bit ticked off whenever I have to fix anything in the house, it
seems like the builder cut every corner imaginable...

Is this a new home in a subdivsion? A tract home perhaps?
Sorry your posts were too long winded. It was obvious you had an
atttude from the beginning.

I am surprised the
house passed inspections. I'll wager the building inspector was getting
his
palm greased by the builder to look the other way. I have to change out
much more then I should to be able to fix/upgrade anything. Houses should
be built to be easily maintained in the future. I mapped out a schematic
of
the house and all the electrical circuits...1/3 of the house is on one
circuit. There is no room to add any extra outlets and still be safe.
Every room should be on an individual circuit. One room can have 3
different circuits in it...that is very bad engineering.

There you go!
Become builder/contractor. With your enginerring skills, background &
knowlege you could make a fortune.


gees, just assume the worst because someone has a bad perspective and a
stereotype of a group of people...HAHAHA

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Nathan" wrote in message
...
HAHAHA successful trolling!


What do you do for a living? It must be something embarrassing. I've
asked
twice and you refuse to answer. Are you on permanent disability because
you got scared by a hornet when you were 8 years old?

"Nathan" wrote in message
news
Sorry Steve, You need money to make money. I will likely be retired by
30 and living off the stock market.


You just explained plenty. You're too young to have much perspective on
anything at all.

Joe,

I never said that you guys should be living in the poorhouse. But I know
most contractors have good times and bad times, there is never a steady flow
of work. I have had to hire people to fix things before. I once paid some
plumber $1000 for a job that he finished in a hour and only paid $50 for
parts. That gives him a wage of $950 an hour. Add in his time to drive
there and the next job, that still puts his wage at $500 an hour. One job
like that a week and that guy is set.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Nathan" wrote in message
...
Actually I am an engineer...you know the anal retentive type that likes
to over-engineer things to make future enhancements easier. Didn't I say
that I was an engineer in the original post? I was tired and a bit
grumpy when I wrote that first post.


OK. An engineer. If you make more than $24,538.92 per year, I think your
profit margin is too high. I know it's an arbitrary number, but what the
hell? This whole thread's about arbitrary numbers, right?

RIGHT?

"Nathan" wrote in message
...
Joe,

I never said that you guys should be living in the poorhouse. But I know
most contractors have good times and bad times, there is never a steady
flow of work. I have had to hire people to fix things before. I once
paid some plumber $1000 for a job that he finished in a hour and only paid
$50 for parts. That gives him a wage of $950 an hour. Add in his time to
drive there and the next job, that still puts his wage at $500 an hour.
One job like that a week and that guy is set.


Translation: You hired the wrong guy. And by the way, I'm not a contractor.
Some restaurants squirt a cute border of sauce around a plate and charge $28
for the entree. Others charge $14.95 for the exact same dish, without the
squiggle and the waiters pretending they're from Paris. You don't whine
about the expensive restaurant because you picked it out.

In article , "Nathan" wrote:

I never said that you guys should be living in the poorhouse. But I know
most contractors have good times and bad times, there is never a steady flow
of work. I have had to hire people to fix things before. I once paid some
plumber $1000 for a job that he finished in a hour and only paid $50 for
parts. That gives him a wage of $950 an hour. Add in his time to drive
there and the next job, that still puts his wage at $500 an hour. One job
like that a week and that guy is set.

"Set"? On a gross income of $52K per year? Upper thirties, at best, after
taxes and expenses... and you think that's "set"??

I don't believe you're an engineer. I think you might be a college kid
studying engineering, putting yourself through school by working part-time at
Starbucks. I can see where a naive college kid might imagine that a gross
income of a thousand dollars a week is a lot of money -- but anyone really
employed full-time as a professional would never make that mistake.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.