wrote:

The OP reported the following which NOW must be told to any and all
perspective buyers as part of every states disclosure law. failure to
disclose this leavesthe seller at lawsuit risk and it will be hard to
find any buyer to purchase a home requiring complete rewire, ulnless
the new buyer happens to say be a electrician

No disrespect, but IMHO, that statement holds about as much water as a
paper bag. K&T wiring is grandfathered in by the NEC. If a real
electrical inspector, as the AHJ (Authority Having Juresdiction), made
the determination that the wiring was faulty, then it would be a fault
that would require disclosure.

Not trying to date myself, but maybe some history from an electrician
who has been through 10 NEC cycles (30 years) will help.

The only real problem with K&T is that much of it has been abused and
misused over the years. If the wiring is brittle, usually from
overheating from air conditioners and such, or kitchen circuits, or
light fixtures, yes, it's time for it to go. OTOH, some K&T, usually
in well maintained historic sections have been well taken care of and
is still good. I've seen more bad K&T than good, though. That's
probably one reason many insurance companies won't touch it with a 10
foot pole.

OTOH, some insurance companies and financial institutions usually only
require that the service be upgraded and some kitchen circuits be
added. In a 900 Sq. Ft. house with gas appliances, that's about all
that would be needed. In some areas that's all that would be required.
In my area, not so, not only do we have to re-wire everything, but
must also tear out all of the K&T.

I remember in the late '80's when the NEC rule that allowed 3 prong
receptacles to be installed on 2-wire circuits (including K&T) as long
as they were GFCI protected came about, that the COMPETITIVE bid for a
re-wire for the area that I was working in at the time dropped from
$3500 (US) to about $2200 simply because as long as the K&T was in
reasonably good shape, and to this day, all one has to do to meet NEC
is replace the first outlet in a circuit with a GFCI, slam in some
regular 3 prong receptacles in the rest of the circuit outlets and call
it a done deal.

Even the 60 amp panel would probably calculate out OK, however, NEC and
many financial institutions now require 100 amp minimum, regardless of
the service calc. However, an existing 60 amp service is grandfathered
by NEC.

Even grounding in old houses is grandfathered. As you probably know,
until the late 1980's it was not uncommon to use the interior water
pipe to ground a service, or ground a receptacle, as long as the water
meter and water heater were jumpered. In fact, there is no doubt that
many of these installations still exist and are grandfathered and safe
as long as no one comes along and installs plastic without jumping it.

If not for plastic, we would probably still be using the old rules.
I'll take an underground water pipe (at least 20 feet) any day as a
good ground. In fact, NEC still requires it if available. IMO, ground
rods should be outlawed as the only grounding means, in favor of an
easily installed (during new construction) Ufer ground.

As an electrician, I try to convince people to get rid of K&T,
regardless of the condition, however, the intent of the NEC is not to
cause undo hardship on folks.

In article . com,
says...
How does insurance know what type of wiring is in the house? When they
inspected my 1935 house they only took pictures of outside and measure
square footage outside. They never came inside.

There are huge variations in insurance inspection requirements depending
on your insurance company, the age of your house, and the type of
insurance you are applying for.

When I insured my house a couple of years ago, because of its age (100+
years old, which is unusual in Washington State) and apparent condition
(previous owners hadn't painted in decades), it got an inside-and-out
inspection by a senior loss adjuster from the insurance company.

He not only verified that the house had mostly K&T wiring, he inspected
the condition of the wiring where it was reasonably accessible, the
attic, the crawlspace, etc., and pulled a few outlets to inspect them in
the kitchen and bath, since those are locations that tend to be
overloaded with modern appliances in older homes.

After confirming that the K&T was in good shape, and addressing some
other issues, he had no objections, and our insurance went through just
fine.

I'm far from alone in that, I know personally at least a dozen homes
insured in the last year with K&T wiring.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

In article .com,
says...
The NEW owner probably couldnt get homeowners insurance

That varies by state, there are parts of the country where getting
insurance for K&T isn't a problem; in other parts of the country it's
quite difficult. In Washington State, for example, I didn't have any
trouble insuring my home with K&T, but it did make the insurance more
expensive.

and ANYONE you
try selling too is going to have the same issues. Plus you now MUST
disclose this problem to all perspective buyers!

K&T isn't a defect per se, it's simply outdated. I wouldn't suggest
hiding it from buyers, but I wouldn't intentionally scare them with it,
either.

You would of MUCH better off discounting the home price by the cost of
rewiring and selling the home. This isnt just a problem for THIS BUYER
its now a problem for all buyers!

If I were selling, I'd at least get a quote for a rewire, to decide
whether to take care of it before selling or to sell the house as-is.
I'd also do a bit of insurance shopping, and if I found an insurance
company that would insure the house without rewiring, I'd invite them to
write a letter to that effect that could be shown to prospective buyers.

If you're in a location where the wiring really will prevent anyone from
insuring the house, that could greatly depress the selling price,
because without insurance they also won't be able to get a mortgage.

If you're in an area where K&T just means a few hundred dollars a year
in higher insurance premiums, I'd find a good insurer to refer buyers to
and sell as-is.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

spake thus:

insurance today is risk adverse.

It's "risk averse"--sheesh, why does everyone get that one wrong? And
insurers have *always* been risk-averse. Nothing new there.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

wrote:
How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should


tell prospective buyers that the house is wired with K&T so they aren't
surprised but that would not fall under the category of disclosing a
fault. UNLESS - of course - the receptacles are grounding type and are
not really grounded. that would be a violation that ought to be disclosed.

nate


The OP reported the following which NOW must be told to any and all
perspective buyers as part of every states disclosure law. failure to
disclose this leavesthe seller at lawsuit risk and it will be hard to
find any buyer to purchase a home requiring complete rewire, ulnless
the new buyer happens to say be a electrician

quote from OP

An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube
wiring a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would
also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to


But where's the code violation? No violation, nothing to disclose. I
agree he should mention that the wiring is K&T but that's it.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

makes you so sure that
the (prospective) seller *must* disclose it? The report came from an
electrician hired by a prospective buyer: are you a real estate lawyer,
and can therefore tell us that this makes disclosure mandatory? I'm not,
and I can't.

Not that he shouldn't, of course; besides which, no buyer in their right
mind should buy the house before determining the type and condition of
wiring in the house.

In any case, it's far from a show-stopper for selling the house. Lots of
old houses have old wiring that should be, or has to be, replaced, and
buyers are (or should be) aware of this. It all comes down to figuring
it into the selling price.


I sold a home about 2 years ago, the first buyer backed out after the
home inspection. The realtor said I HAD to give all shoppers access to
the first home inspection since it was now part of the disclosure
process..

I fixed mearly every issue the first inspector found, except the attic
temp which was more than 15 degrees hotter than the outside on a hot
july day. Home inspector one said I had to add vent fans even though I
had ridge and gable end vents. oddly the second inspector said it wasnt
a problem.

today selling a home is a minefield of hassles even when your home is
in great shape.

first home inspector complained no GFCI on sump pump, second inspector
complained it WAS protected, I had added a GFCI for the pump.

The only real problem with K&T is that much of it has been abused and
misused over the years. If the wiring is brittle, usually from
overheating from air conditioners and such, or kitchen circuits, or
light fixtures, yes, it's time for it to go. OTOH, some K&T, usually
in well maintained historic sections have been well taken care of and
is still good. I've seen more bad K&T than good, though. That's
probably one reason many insurance companies won't touch it with a 10
foot pole.

OTOH, some insurance companies and financial institutions usually only
require that the service be upgraded and some kitchen circuits be
added. In a 900 Sq. Ft. house with gas appliances, that's about all
that would be needed. In some areas that's all that would be required.
In my area, not so, not only do we have to re-wire everything, but
must also tear out all of the K&T.


You see there are TWO ISSUES NEC which grandfathers stuff in and
mortage and insurance companies who set their OWN RULES.

Now its IMPOSSIBLE to inspect all the K&T since its buried in walls,
lacks boxes and is often abused by ACs and other heavy loads. Honestly
wouldnt it cost more to inspect it than rewire?

The last part of his post says from a PRO ............ not only replace
it all but rip out all the old K&T thats so someone doesnt decide to
reuse it in the future

OTOH, some insurance companies and financial institutions usually only
require that the service be upgraded and some kitchen circuits be
added. In a 900 Sq. Ft. house with gas appliances, that's about all
that would be needed. In some areas that's all that would be required.
In my area, not so, not only do we have to re-wire everything, but
must also tear out all of the K&T.

I HAVE A GOOD IDEA, WHEN AND IF THE OP SELLS HIS HOME WOULD HE PLEASE
REPORT BACK HERE WITH THE OUTCOME?

MY INSURANCE AGENT SAID homeowners used to be a cash cow, but after
the major hurricane losses the underwriters started looking closely to
minimize all future losses.

so 5 years ago K&T may have been no problem but today its a
showstopper.

or may raise insurance premiums a LOT.......

But where's the code violation? No violation, nothing to disclose. I
agree he should mention that the wiring is K&T but that's it.

nate


disclosure isnt limited to code violations. LONG list, age of roof?any
leaks EVER?
ANYTHING THAT EVER WENT WRONG and how it was fixed.

fail to disclose, item causes trouble seller pays for repairs, and
worse it will be a high class high cost job.

neighbor had bad sewer line terracotta pipe, everyones is bad. tree
roots plus illegal install at time homes were built over 50 years
ago. Sewer line also under slab drain.

anyhow the buyer sued the seller and won over 10 grand for sewer line
replacement and yard / driveway restoration...........

the old days of cover it up buyers trouble are long gone

wrote:
But where's the code violation? No violation, nothing to disclose. I
agree he should mention that the wiring is K&T but that's it.

nate


disclosure isnt limited to code violations. LONG list, age of roof?any
leaks EVER?
ANYTHING THAT EVER WENT WRONG and how it was fixed.

fail to disclose, item causes trouble seller pays for repairs, and
worse it will be a high class high cost job.

neighbor had bad sewer line terracotta pipe, everyones is bad. tree
roots plus illegal install at time homes were built over 50 years
ago. Sewer line also under slab drain.

anyhow the buyer sued the seller and won over 10 grand for sewer line
replacement and yard / driveway restoration...........

the old days of cover it up buyers trouble are long gone

I agree that "disclosing" the presence of K&T is the right thing to do.
I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. However, I think the OP
was scared by the electrician's use of the word "correct" in his quote.
If there is no code violation there's nothing to "correct." "Upgrade"
would be a more accurate word. The real question is, has the OP had
any electrical issues? If no, then IMHO he should still tell
prospective buyers about the presence of K&T wiring in the interest of
an amicable and fair negotiation, however if everything is working
correctly there is no fault that needs to be corrected.

Again, if there are grounding-type outlets without grounds, or
insulation blown in around pre-existing K&T wiring, those *ARE* issues,
but the OP did not mention either.

nate

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:


If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C



It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That has been
true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but they are
not allowed as a point for grounding wiring.

CWM
Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should
actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire
at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That
includes the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's
statement is in acordance with the NEC.
--
bud--

Nate Nagel wrote:

Charlie Morgan wrote:

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove

wrote:


Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe
within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also
connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box



No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM


Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a
primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding
stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water
pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the
meter and the HWH)

nate

If talking about grounding electrodes, a water pipe with at least 10
foot of metal in contact with the earth has been required for a long
time to be part of the grounding electrode system. Particularly with a
municipal metal water supply system, the water service pipe will have a
much lower resistance to ground than ground rods, which are
"supplemental" electrodes (required only because a metal water service
may become plastic in the future). Mentioned somewhere in this thread, a
concrete encased electrode (Ufer ground) is now required in new
construction that has footings, and is used in place of a ground rod.

--
bud--

wrote:

RBM (remove this) wrote:

Haller, the point is: I don't care!!! The point is YOU making these
definitive statements, based on a few accounts, as if NO ONE can get
insurance if they have K&T wiring. If you are going to be that definitive,
you have an obligation to prove it.



others HERE reported they HAD to upgrade to get homeowners.........

isnt that sufficent?

anyone who questions this just call and ask espically the OP and do ask
about rates since they may not be affordable(

Others HERE reported they could get insurance

isnt that sufficient?

You can't generalize your experiences to the whole country.

Getting insurance with k&T wiring may or may not be a problem depending
on area and insurance company.



And K&T wiring is not a defect under the NEC and there is nothing to
disclose (unless local codes don't allow its continued use).

--
bud--

Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when
I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to
the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I
bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it.
From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in
spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to
breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern)
if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green"
wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John


"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when
I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to
the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I
bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it.
From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in
spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to
breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern)
if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green"
wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John




Few insurance companies will provide homeowners insurance for fuse
boxes anymore, too many people say well a 15 amp blows, so make it a 20
amp, oh what the heck \
heres a 30. I have a good friend like that who has K&T and 30 amp
fuses on 14 gauge wiring, one day his home will cease to exist

Have you found a new realtor who doesnt call the wiring a problem?
if a realtor knowling covers up or assists in covering up or is even
part of this their agency can be sued or even lose their license.

Just to play devils advocate you have only owned this home 5 years....
what about the 100 years previous? how can you be certain someone didnt
muck with it?

Having sold a home 2 years ago its horrible and I certinally wish you
the best but fear any buyer you get will want the wiring replaced

curious is your home priced much less than surrounding ones? 40 grand
today is pretty cheap, in california the exact same home would likey be
half a million bucks.

Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be
screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be
used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that
circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an
issue with them



wrote in message
ups.com...

John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth
wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First
when
I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As
to
the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I
bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it.
From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm
in
spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to
breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more
modern)
if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green"
wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring
is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board
says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that
the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like
to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all
out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John




Few insurance companies will provide homeowners insurance for fuse
boxes anymore, too many people say well a 15 amp blows, so make it a 20
amp, oh what the heck \
heres a 30. I have a good friend like that who has K&T and 30 amp
fuses on 14 gauge wiring, one day his home will cease to exist

Have you found a new realtor who doesnt call the wiring a problem?
if a realtor knowling covers up or assists in covering up or is even
part of this their agency can be sued or even lose their license.

Just to play devils advocate you have only owned this home 5 years....
what about the 100 years previous? how can you be certain someone didnt
muck with it?

Having sold a home 2 years ago its horrible and I certinally wish you
the best but fear any buyer you get will want the wiring replaced

curious is your home priced much less than surrounding ones? 40 grand
today is pretty cheap, in california the exact same home would likey be
half a million bucks.

Bud, thanks for the code correction, and the backup

Roy


"Bud--" wrote in message
...
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove

wrote:


If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C



It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That
has been
true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but
they are
not allowed as a point for grounding wiring.

CWM
Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should
actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire
at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That includes
the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's statement is in
acordance with the NEC.
--
bud--

RBM (remove this) wrote:
Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be
screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be
used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that
circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an
issue with them


Again many insurance companies today wouldnt insure any home with a
fuse box for NEW custonmers.....

have you bothered to call some agents and ASK, getting some solid
current info?

curious what other things do you buy that has a lifetime of over 100
years like K&T wiring?

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM

The gospel according to the US NEC is that you can. viz
"250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately
derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment
grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as
indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type
receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit
extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment
grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be
permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of
the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described
in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the
service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the
service equipment enclosure"
Copyright 2002 the National Fire Protection Association
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Nate Nagel wrote:
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove

wrote:


Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe
within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also
connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box



No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM

Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a
primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding
stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water
pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the
meter and the HWH)

nate


Nate
Explain this. The premise in question is served by a metallic water
line lateral connected to an underground water system that stretches
over several hundred square miles. No how many stakes; what we here
call rods; will it take to have a better grounding electrode system;
what you folks call an earthing array if I remember correctly; than that
public water system. Hint it can't be done.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:46:42 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:


Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five
feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse
box or anything that is grounding the fuse box


No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM
Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a
primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding
stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water
pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the
meter and the HWH)

nate

Yes the water pipes should be bonded, but they are not to be used to provide
ground for anything else.

CWM

Can you explain why the US National Electric Code requires the
underground metallic water piping be used as part of the Grounding
Electrode System? It does you know, even when the entire interior
plumbing system is non metallic.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when
I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to
the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I
bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it.
From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in
spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to
breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern)

In your case, since you are selling, some lending institutions (such as
government backed loans) may require a minimum 100 amp service.
Something to be aware of anyway, not that you should have it done now
for that reason, but at least it won't be a surprise should it pop up
during the sale. Many realtors have electrician's in there pocket just
for such and prices tend to be higher simply because they know it's
holding up the show and many people will just say "do it." Take the
electrician who quoted you $1500(US) for an upgrade. IMO, for a 100
amp service, the bid is about $500 too high. In my area, for $1500 one
can get a 200 amp service.

Additionally, if you decide to upgrade, I would recommend no less than
a 125 amp service because, should electric central heat or air be
desired in the future, the service calc. usually comes in over 100
amps.

if the current wiring still remains ungrounded.

Upgrading the service will also allow new circuits to be added. The
old fuse panels are usually only a Main/Range and 4 (circuits). K&T
circuits are usually limited to 15 amps. Even with gas appliances, the
kitchen should have a minimum of two 20 amp circuits. Window air
conditioners sometimes create an overload situation on 15 amp circuits.
With K&T/fuses the usual tendency for homeowners/tenants is to throw
in larger fuses. Not good. In fact, electrician's are required by NEC
to install Type "S" fuse adapters if they see evidence of fuse
tampering.

Also if I do run "green"
wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles?

No, that's the purpose of running the green wire, upgrading. An NEC
accepted alternative is to install a GFCI at the first outlet, feed
through it downstream and install regular 3 prong outlets on the rest
of the circuit, marking them with the stickers that come with the GFCI
receptacle as "no ground."

IMO, it's a waste of time to install just a green wire. Whatever it
takes to install Romex is going to be the same as installing just a
green wire. You'll be glad that you spent the extra $300 for the
Romex, plus you will be able to get in some needed kitchen circuits.

Also because all the wiring is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John

A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation,
it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many
people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about.
Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see
if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using
boxes, another serious code violation.

I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered
cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC
long enough.

Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Charlie Morgan wrote:

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove

wrote:


Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe
within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also
connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box



No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM


Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a
primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding
stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water
pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the
meter and the HWH)

nate


Nate
Explain this. The premise in question is served by a metallic water
line lateral connected to an underground water system that stretches
over several hundred square miles. No how many stakes; what we here
call rods; will it take to have a better grounding electrode system;
what you folks call an earthing array if I remember correctly; than that
public water system. Hint it can't be done.

redundancy, and also the ability to function "off grid" should the water
service ever be replaced by a non-metallic pipe.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

wrote:
RBM (remove this) wrote:

Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be
screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be
used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that
circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an
issue with them



Again many insurance companies today wouldnt insure any home with a
fuse box for NEW custonmers.....

have you bothered to call some agents and ASK, getting some solid
current info?

curious what other things do you buy that has a lifetime of over 100
years like K&T wiring?


I prefer to buy very little that doesn't look like it could last 100
years if it had to! I don't understand our throwaway society...

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation,
it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many
people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about.
Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see
if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using
boxes, another serious code violation.

I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered
cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC
long enough.

around here pittsburgh area all K&T is boxless

it was spliced inside the wall with no boxes, then covered over by
wood lathe and plaster so a overheated connection can cause a fire, and
insulation just makes it worse.

NOTHING lasts forever and what else do YOU own that lasts over a 100
years?

people think nothing of a new car every 5 years, for dependability and
safety. that would be 20 vehicles in a hundred years. at a very
consertive 10 grand a year $200,000..........

meanwhile some get upset over spending a few grand........

I had a friend shopping for a home, it was a $100,000 but the K&T HAD
to go to get a mortage. the seller refused the 5 grand credit and my
friend bought a different home.

the housing market cooled while the home went thru three realtors.

the home finally sold for 85 grand, clearly the seller made a bad
choice.. cost him over a year and 10 grand.

I HOPE the OP gets his price and a quick sale........

wrote:
A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation,
it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many
people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about.
Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see
if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using
boxes, another serious code violation.

I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered
cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC
long enough.

around here pittsburgh area all K&T is boxless

Everyone knows, or should know, that K&T is boxless everywhere. Back
in those days there was a keen awareness of the hazards of bad
connections so the joints were made by highly skilled people with great
care, soldered and taped with something besides Jap wrap. Original K&T
needed no boxes for that reason. Somewhere along the line somebody
installed cloth covered cable in the OP's house and _those_ were the
connections to which I was referring. Any connections made to the
original K&T were very likely made with wire nuts, if that, and need to
be in a box. This is only one of the many types of abuse that K&T has
suffered over the years.

It's sometimes hard to find, but seeing an original installation of K&T
that hasn't been butchered by bad splices and destroyed by
overloading/overheating is a thing of beauty.

it was spliced inside the wall with no boxes, then covered over by
wood lathe and plaster so a overheated connection can cause a fire, and
insulation just makes it worse.

I believe that K&T has withstood that test of time with flying colors.
It's the hacked and abused wiring that gets the bad rap, and yes,
insulation makes it much worse.

NOTHING lasts forever and what else do YOU own that lasts over a 100
years?

The wiring in milions of homes. K&T is pushing 100 years and still
hanging in there. The insulation in today's wiring will last much
longer, installed properly. Also, the plethora of today's electric
codes will help ensure that today's wiring will not be overloaded and
abused like K&T was.

John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. ...
... I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me ...

Smart man! It does nothing truly useful although it _might_ have a
cosmetic effect of influencing a potential buyer simply owing to the
new look, particularly for an individual with little or no technical
knowledge or first-time owner. OTOH, there are a lot of folks who buy
houses essentially on nothing more than whether it just appeals to
them.

...run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John

My suggestion would be to first, ignore hallerb's ranting about
absolute uninsurability -- he brings this windmill out to joust against
at every opportunity. There _may_ be a problem in his area, but I
frankly would be surprised that even there it would be nearly as
widespread as he wants to make it appear and there probably was some
specific issue behind the anectdotal "evidence" rather than a full
proscription. But, that's also conjecture on my part, based on what is
the general rule here. None of the houses in the local "Old Town
Revitalization District" project have been denied homeowners' insurance
nor mortgages for existing K&T wiring that met (grandfathered) code
requirements and was otherwise not defective. I know something of this
having served on the OTRD board the last several years. In fact, as
someone else noted, in only an instance or two am I aware that
underwriters even asked for more than the basic square footage,
frame/brick, wood/composition/other roofing, etc., kind of checklist
questions and a general overview of the house condition for full
coverage.

As for adding grounded outlets, again I'd suggest doing nothing unless
a prospective buyer wants to make it a condition, and then consider it
a negotiating point. Someone else w/ electrician credentials already
noted in another response the use of a GFCI outlet as the first on a
circuit -- that would be my suggestion of how to proceed if really were
interested in doing it as a preemptive strike sort of thing.

As for disclosure, every state has its own rules on what must be
disclosed, and some localities may have additional as well, but those
are documented by statute and there will be forms available that meet
those legal obligations. Beyond what is specifically listed on the
forms I would not venture. I don't recommend trying to "hide"
anything, but there is no obligation, legal or moral, to make a problem
out of a molehill or to create the impression of a deficiency or defect
where none exists. That K&T wiring is obsolete for new construction is
_NOT_ the issue and to confuse that with the requirement to be open and
complete in disclosure is simply a case of comparing apples and oranges
for a common metaphor.

Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally,
working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most
transactions. Again, disclosure and rules
of representation vary by state and locality and in some instances even
with the actual title with which the agent represents him/herself. Be
sure you are aware of those rules so that you understand the motives
and obligations driving the agent -- you may find yourself surprised by
what the rules actually say in that regard. In this case, it does
sound as though you found one who was going out to make a better
bargain for her prospective buyer in order to try to close a deal and
get the smaller commission sooner rather than hope for a few hundred
dollars more later with more time invested on her part. Similar
caveats hold for inspectors, of course, and I would be particularly
wary of those brought in by a realtor in behalf of the purchaser --
they are beholden to the realtor and are not working in your behalf.

I'll throw in another -- someone else already mentioned the
_independent_ appraisal, I'll add it could be worthwhile to get an
inspection done on your behalf as well to have as a comparative
standard for potential buyers or, if provided it up front, some
potential buyers might even accept it. In doing this, of course,
you'll want to ensure up front that the inspector you hire doesn't have
a personal bias against K&T as some I've run across have seemed to have
been taught from the hallerb school and simply check it off as a
"problem" as opposed to actually inspecting it for
condition/compliance, etc.

And, lastly, never go into a major obligation/transaction without
getting legal review of documents if there's anything whatsoever that
seems suspicious regarding clauses of responsibility or other riders
other than a clean transfer of deed. Some buyers recently are
attempting to attach all sorts of strings on hidden faults, etc., that
can spring up even years later -- you want to be certain, particularly
on an older home, that "when it's gone, it's gone." For this reason,
again, be sure you disclosures are full and complete and meet the
letter of the laws in your jurisdiction but make no representation
beyond that, either good or bad.


"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally,
working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most
transactions.

Sorry WRONG agents work for the SELLER unless they are specifically
retained as BUYERS AGENTS and in that case a different agent has to
represent the seller.

Amazing how much confusion on this.

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:22:50 -0600, Bud--
wrote:


Charlie Morgan wrote:

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:



If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C



It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That has been
true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but they are
not allowed as a point for grounding wiring.

CWM

Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should
actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire
at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That
includes the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's
statement is in acordance with the NEC.


Incorrect interpretation. You need to take what the code says as a
whole, not just select snippets without context. If you have your own
well, you "might" be able to do that, and get it past an inspector,
but if a water meter exists between that pipe and the part buried in
the earth, you cannot. The pipe, if used, must be unbroken for a
length of at least 10 feet in the earth and enter the houase without
any breaks, joints, or devices in line.

CWM

If the water service pipe has 10 foot or more metal in contact with the
earth it is required to be used as a grounding electrode, and the
electrode connection may be made anywhere within 5 feet of the entrance.
The water meter is required to be bonded. Ground wires discussed may be
connected in the same 5 foot distance from the entrance point, as
permitted in 250.130C. Grounds for phone and other communications
protectors may be connected in the same 5 foot span, as for instance in
800.100B.

RBM's statement should be narrowed to the extent that if there is not 10
ft metal in contact with the earth the water pipe can't be used for
other grounds, as discussed.

These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any
"code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3
electricians (including Thomas Horne).

--
bud--

He'll never admit he's wrong. You might as well give up.

--
Steve Barker



"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote in message
news

Can you explain why the US National Electric Code requires the underground
metallic water piping be used as part of the Grounding Electrode System?
It does you know, even when the entire interior plumbing system is non
metallic.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Bud-- wrote:

These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any
"code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3
electricians (including Thomas Horne).

Make that 4.

Charlie Morgan wrote:

You are simply wrong. The NEC agrees with me. Its dangerous and illegal to use
cold water pipes for a ground, and has been for many years. You are a twit.

The CEC on the other hand explicitly allows (and in some cases mandates)
grounding via metal cold water pipe.

In fact, if you have at least 10ft metal piping buried deep enough then
it *must* be used as the service grounding electrode. This is
acceptable without any additional artificial electrodes.

If the above is not available, we can also use a metal well casing,
ground rods (at least 2), or concrete encased electrode under the
building footings.

Chris

wrote:
Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally,
working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most
transactions.

Sorry WRONG agents work for the SELLER unless they are specifically
retained as BUYERS AGENTS and in that case a different agent has to
represent the seller.

Actually, I did word what I intended incorrectly by using the phrase
"real estate agent" as that does have a specific connotation. What I
intended was simply "agent" as there are buyers' and sellers' agents as
you note. However, it is not true that in every locale a different
agent must represent seller/buyer -- there are many jurisdictions for
which that still isn't a requirement although as far as I know, they
are required to reveal that (although in TN as one example, the
disclosure was pretty much hidden in the fine print and you had to dig
through all the contract "legalese" in order to get to it -- it wasn't
required to be "disclosed" as an upfront listing of "how I am paid"
kinds of things as in a disclosure form.

Amazing how much confusion on this.

That's true, and the key thing is that every state has laws and rules
that are not the same everywhere so there is an understandable reason
for the confusion -- it is very easy to take one's experience from a
particular place and assume it is applicable elsewhere, but that just
"ain't necessarily so"...

Thanks to you for the point by point reply and RBM and all . I will check
the points you make about splices and such but I haven't seen any evidence
of it. John


"volts500" wrote in message
ups.com...
John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth
wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First
when
I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As
to
the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and
I
bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring
it.
From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm
in
spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing
to
breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more
modern)

In your case, since you are selling, some lending institutions (such as
government backed loans) may require a minimum 100 amp service.
Something to be aware of anyway, not that you should have it done now
for that reason, but at least it won't be a surprise should it pop up
during the sale. Many realtors have electrician's in there pocket just
for such and prices tend to be higher simply because they know it's
holding up the show and many people will just say "do it." Take the
electrician who quoted you $1500(US) for an upgrade. IMO, for a 100
amp service, the bid is about $500 too high. In my area, for $1500 one
can get a 200 amp service.

Additionally, if you decide to upgrade, I would recommend no less than
a 125 amp service because, should electric central heat or air be
desired in the future, the service calc. usually comes in over 100
amps.

if the current wiring still remains ungrounded.

Upgrading the service will also allow new circuits to be added. The
old fuse panels are usually only a Main/Range and 4 (circuits). K&T
circuits are usually limited to 15 amps. Even with gas appliances, the
kitchen should have a minimum of two 20 amp circuits. Window air
conditioners sometimes create an overload situation on 15 amp circuits.
With K&T/fuses the usual tendency for homeowners/tenants is to throw
in larger fuses. Not good. In fact, electrician's are required by NEC
to install Type "S" fuse adapters if they see evidence of fuse
tampering.

Also if I do run "green"
wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles?

No, that's the purpose of running the green wire, upgrading. An NEC
accepted alternative is to install a GFCI at the first outlet, feed
through it downstream and install regular 3 prong outlets on the rest
of the circuit, marking them with the stickers that come with the GFCI
receptacle as "no ground."

IMO, it's a waste of time to install just a green wire. Whatever it
takes to install Romex is going to be the same as installing just a
green wire. You'll be glad that you spent the extra $300 for the
Romex, plus you will be able to get in some needed kitchen circuits.

Also because all the wiring is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board
says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor
because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that
the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like
to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all
out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer
look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John

A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation,
it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many
people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about.
Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see
if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using
boxes, another serious code violation.

I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered
cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC
long enough.

dpb wrote:
wrote:
Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally,
working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most
transactions.

Sorry WRONG agents work for the SELLER unless they are specifically
retained as BUYERS AGENTS and in that case a different agent has to
represent the seller.

Actually, I did word what I intended incorrectly by using the phrase
"real estate agent" as that does have a specific connotation. What I
intended was simply "agent" as there are buyers' and sellers' agents as
you note. However, it is not true that in every locale a different
agent must represent seller/buyer -- there are many jurisdictions for
which that still isn't a requirement although as far as I know, they
are required to reveal that (although in TN as one example, the
disclosure was pretty much hidden in the fine print and you had to dig
through all the contract "legalese" in order to get to it -- it wasn't
required to be "disclosed" as an upfront listing of "how I am paid"
kinds of things as in a disclosure form.

Amazing how much confusion on this.

That's true, and the key thing is that every state has laws and rules
that are not the same everywhere so there is an understandable reason
for the confusion -- it is very easy to take one's experience from a
particular place and assume it is applicable elsewhere, but that just
"ain't necessarily so"...

nearly everywhere the agents comission comes out of sellers proceeds,
and in PA all agewnts work for the seller unless otherwise specified.

Reality is agents skirt a fine line to get as many sales as possible,
since the depend on comissions....

selling a home today is the pits, what with home inspectors, demanding
buyers, pushy mortage companies, many people with poor credit, the list
in endless.........

Just so you know the K&T insurance issue is true heres a paste from
another board discussing it. I have NO connection with anything there,
and put some of this up as a reference to insurance rules today!

As you can see insurance has become picky recently....

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Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55


We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that we
are in the process of purchasing.
The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in
the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He recommended
that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring inspected and safety
tested by an licensed electrician before we take possession of the
house.

He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with the
electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty getting
an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube?




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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11

Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will
cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you
30-60 days to disconnect and replace it.
This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on
impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it
was with a high risk company.

First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often
means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical certificate
stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also advising what
percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help.

If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see
how your company deals with knob & tube issues.

Hope this helps.




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Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00

Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to replace
their K&T or their insurance would not renew.



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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49

I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home
with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is
disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days.
The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't
use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and
who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy
appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is
safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance
companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold
though.




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Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06

When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the home
inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They
wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly
show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked
up.




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Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21

Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't
supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic
better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck.



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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45

We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube
energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through
Vermont Mutual.
VT

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Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01

We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance
companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the
inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there
wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more
difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies
taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to
code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise



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Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00

We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have
used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would. We
are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck!



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Posted by athomein1914 (My Page) on Fri, Nov 11, 05 at 20:36

Our house was almost entirely knob & tube when purchased and we had no
trouble insuring. (Allstate)
We've since rewired to code and insulated the attic. There was zero
insulation when we purchased our home.

Another insurance issue we've run into is insuring for replacement of
the historic home we have as opposed to a flat rate per square foot. I
find there is tremendous variation among insurance companies, and among
policies, and every so often I call around to update myself and my
home. You can insure beyond the "standard" to protect your
not-so-standard home.




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Posted by terryr (My Page) on Sun, Nov 13, 05 at 16:44

We have Grange Insurance on an 1896 house. They didn't ask us about
knob & tube, only about fuses vs. circuit breaker. We had 90 days to
upgrade to a CB.

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Posted by Bella_Design (My Page) on Mon, Nov 14, 05 at 23:23

I have a 1918 house in TN. It has some K&T in it as well. The main
breaker had two 100 amp fuses in it and was able to insure it with the
condition that I replace the fuse box with a circuit breaker, but none
of the wiring was a problem. The thing I had the most problem with was
that it is partially asbestos sided. Try Erie Insurance if they are
available in your area.

wrote:
....

nearly everywhere the agents comission comes out of sellers proceeds,
and in PA all agewnts work for the seller unless otherwise specified.
....

That may be so in PA and where your "nearly everywhere" covers, but not
so here -- generally the commission is paid by the buyer although it is
typically a first offer request by a prospective purchaser for the
seller to pay it instead. That, of course, is also occasionally
dependent on whether the listing agency/agent finds the prospect or
whether the prospect comes from a MLS agent. Whether the seller
accepts the offer to "eat" the commission is their call -- some will to
close the deal, some won't as they think they've set a fair market
price, some will offer to split the difference.

Here, the side of the fence the agent is on depends solely on what the
contract says -- and they may, under certain circumstances, act as
brokers for either/both. Bottom line is, need to know what the local
laws are and read every contract word carefully, as they aren't the
same everywhere by any means.

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006 09:23:32 -0800, "volts500" wrote:


Bud-- wrote:

These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any
"code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3
electricians (including Thomas Horne).

Make that 4.

This is turning out to be quite a black eye for the profession!

CWM

You're a funny guy Charlie! If you don't believe 4 electricians with a
combined experience of over 100 years, will you believe a certified
electrical inspector? If so, go ask him:

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/index.htm

If you don't believe him, then try alt.engineering.electrical

Chris Friesen wrote:

Charlie Morgan wrote:

You are simply wrong. The NEC agrees with me. Its dangerous and
illegal to use
cold water pipes for a ground, and has been for many years. You are a
twit.


The CEC on the other hand explicitly allows (and in some cases mandates)
grounding via metal cold water pipe.

In fact, if you have at least 10ft metal piping buried deep enough then
it *must* be used as the service grounding electrode. This is
acceptable without any additional artificial electrodes.

If the above is not available, we can also use a metal well casing,
ground rods (at least 2), or concrete encased electrode under the
building footings.

Chris
Contrary to Charlie, the US-NEC rule is almost identical. The depth
("deep enough") doesn't matter. And the NEC requires a "supplemental"
electrode only because a metal underground water pipe may be replaed by
plastic at some time in the future.

The NEC does not generally allow connecting grounds to water pipes
except within 5 feet of the water service entrance, which may be what
Charlie is picking up.

--
bud--

On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 19:00:43 GMT, "John F. F."
wrote:

I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm

Cheap house for sale

looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as

Men used to have knobs but not no more. Men are knobless wimps these
days, and none of them use tubes anymore either.

well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4 circuits.

Dont light that fuse

An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded

This message is too long........ Fuggitt

complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 circuits." No estimate was given for that work.
This house is 900 years old. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture to a 100 old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess somehow be grounded. Could I run
from a ground wire?
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.