John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. ...
... I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me ...

Smart man! It does nothing truly useful although it _might_ have a
cosmetic effect of influencing a potential buyer simply owing to the
new look, particularly for an individual with little or no technical
knowledge or first-time owner. OTOH, there are a lot of folks who buy
houses essentially on nothing more than whether it just appeals to
them.

...run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no
longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is
grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says
that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because
someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the
(now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the
authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the
wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to
come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out".
I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look
new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John

My suggestion would be to first, ignore hallerb's ranting about
absolute uninsurability -- he brings this windmill out to joust against
at every opportunity. There _may_ be a problem in his area, but I
frankly would be surprised that even there it would be nearly as
widespread as he wants to make it appear and there probably was some
specific issue behind the anectdotal "evidence" rather than a full
proscription. But, that's also conjecture on my part, based on what is
the general rule here. None of the houses in the local "Old Town
Revitalization District" project have been denied homeowners' insurance
nor mortgages for existing K&T wiring that met (grandfathered) code
requirements and was otherwise not defective. I know something of this
having served on the OTRD board the last several years. In fact, as
someone else noted, in only an instance or two am I aware that
underwriters even asked for more than the basic square footage,
frame/brick, wood/composition/other roofing, etc., kind of checklist
questions and a general overview of the house condition for full
coverage.

As for adding grounded outlets, again I'd suggest doing nothing unless
a prospective buyer wants to make it a condition, and then consider it
a negotiating point. Someone else w/ electrician credentials already
noted in another response the use of a GFCI outlet as the first on a
circuit -- that would be my suggestion of how to proceed if really were
interested in doing it as a preemptive strike sort of thing.

As for disclosure, every state has its own rules on what must be
disclosed, and some localities may have additional as well, but those
are documented by statute and there will be forms available that meet
those legal obligations. Beyond what is specifically listed on the
forms I would not venture. I don't recommend trying to "hide"
anything, but there is no obligation, legal or moral, to make a problem
out of a molehill or to create the impression of a deficiency or defect
where none exists. That K&T wiring is obsolete for new construction is
_NOT_ the issue and to confuse that with the requirement to be open and
complete in disclosure is simply a case of comparing apples and oranges
for a common metaphor.

Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally,
working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most
transactions. Again, disclosure and rules
of representation vary by state and locality and in some instances even
with the actual title with which the agent represents him/herself. Be
sure you are aware of those rules so that you understand the motives
and obligations driving the agent -- you may find yourself surprised by
what the rules actually say in that regard. In this case, it does
sound as though you found one who was going out to make a better
bargain for her prospective buyer in order to try to close a deal and
get the smaller commission sooner rather than hope for a few hundred
dollars more later with more time invested on her part. Similar
caveats hold for inspectors, of course, and I would be particularly
wary of those brought in by a realtor in behalf of the purchaser --
they are beholden to the realtor and are not working in your behalf.

I'll throw in another -- someone else already mentioned the
_independent_ appraisal, I'll add it could be worthwhile to get an
inspection done on your behalf as well to have as a comparative
standard for potential buyers or, if provided it up front, some
potential buyers might even accept it. In doing this, of course,
you'll want to ensure up front that the inspector you hire doesn't have
a personal bias against K&T as some I've run across have seemed to have
been taught from the hallerb school and simply check it off as a
"problem" as opposed to actually inspecting it for
condition/compliance, etc.

And, lastly, never go into a major obligation/transaction without
getting legal review of documents if there's anything whatsoever that
seems suspicious regarding clauses of responsibility or other riders
other than a clean transfer of deed. Some buyers recently are
attempting to attach all sorts of strings on hidden faults, etc., that
can spring up even years later -- you want to be certain, particularly
on an older home, that "when it's gone, it's gone." For this reason,
again, be sure you disclosures are full and complete and meet the
letter of the laws in your jurisdiction but make no representation
beyond that, either good or bad.


"John F. F." wrote in message
...
I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm
looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as
well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are
gas;
fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4
circuits.
An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the
ungrounded
wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring
a
complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also
increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to
accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that
work.
This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to
moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With
200
amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for
$1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit
breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable).
The
buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I
cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this
mean
nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a
100
amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing
is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t
and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire
from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and
connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable
input
and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.