Useless advice.

Locating services that mark local utilities are responsible only
to the metering device. You can beg and plead and might get an
individual locator to spot the lines for you, but his corporate
response is supposed to be "no way" and I absolutely will not give
a depth indication.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Tekkie®" wrote in message
ganews.com...
Ray posted for all of us...

The previous owner of my home burried some Romex to power up a
pool pump and
he ran a branch to a receptacle for a non existent sheded off
this to
provide a receptacle to a non existent shed.

I like to do some trenching in my yard to run conduit to a
workshop that I
built but want to avoid the existing romex.

Is there a way/device to help me find the burried romex. I
tried a metal
detector and after adjusting the sensitivity it still picks up
a lot of
stray stuff in my yard and does not give me a clear picture of
the location
of the romex.

Thanks,



Use your areas "one call" system.
--

Tekkie

Matt wrote:
Whatever you say Jimbo.

It's obvious that you are more concerned with getting the last word in
then you are about actually discussing the validity of a topic - which
is good - because as you said: YOU ARE NO LAWYER.

You ain't no Jack Kennedy, either.

****, you don't even match up to the capabilities of rain man.


I think you have done more than I have to help me make my point, so

I'll let

you play with someone else.


I think you are right. So I'll let you go back to playing with
yourself.

And for god's sake PLEASE put me in your killfile.

Thank you.
Matt


Jack Kennedy... he's the guy who got his 45Kt. PT Boat ran over by a
30Kt. Destroyer that he was supposed to be hunting for.
(Enemy destroyer, during wartime, you know...)



--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.

Jack Kennedy... he's the guy who got his 45Kt. PT Boat ran over by a
30Kt. Destroyer that he was supposed to be hunting for.
(Enemy destroyer, during wartime, you know...)

Yeah, thats him.

Same guy that later looked the Russians in the eye and told them to
**** off.

You'll remember - think about it some more.

You know, the reason there havn't been nukes pointed at the US, sitting
just off Florida for the last 40+ years.

(Nukes, maniacal dictator, near instantaneous delivery time to the US,
you know...)

"Ray" wrote in message
news:574ee.4379$Ri4.319@okepread07...
The previous owner of my home burried some Romex to power up a pool pump
and
he ran a branch to a receptacle for a non existent sheded off this to
provide a receptacle to a non existent shed.

I like to do some trenching in my yard to run conduit to a workshop that I
built but want to avoid the existing romex.

Is there a way/device to help me find the burried romex. I tried a metal
detector and after adjusting the sensitivity it still picks up a lot of
stray stuff in my yard and does not give me a clear picture of the
location
of the romex.

Thanks,



Take two pieces of straight baling wire about 16" each. Bend a 90 about
four inches from the end.

Put these down in two Tabasco bottles so they can freely spin. Tilt
slightly forward so they point in front of you. When you walk over the
line, they will both swing towards the center. Beware, though. They will
also pick up sprinkler lines, sewer lines, water lines, etc.

If you have a light touch, make a round fist, just touching your first
finger to the tip of your thumb. Your hand would look just like were
holding an invisible broom handle. Do the same thing with the wires.

It works. Used it countless times to locate lines.

Steve

Thanks to all the serious posters to my original question !! I will try a
few of the suggestions making sure not to kill myself when I touch the wires
to the lugs in the breaker panel

Ray

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:B6gee.15733$_K.10330@fed1read03...

"Ray" wrote in message
news:574ee.4379$Ri4.319@okepread07...
The previous owner of my home burried some Romex to power up a pool pump
and
he ran a branch to a receptacle for a non existent sheded off this to
provide a receptacle to a non existent shed.

I like to do some trenching in my yard to run conduit to a workshop that
I
built but want to avoid the existing romex.

Is there a way/device to help me find the burried romex. I tried a
metal
detector and after adjusting the sensitivity it still picks up a lot of
stray stuff in my yard and does not give me a clear picture of the
location
of the romex.

Thanks,



Take two pieces of straight baling wire about 16" each. Bend a 90 about
four inches from the end.

Put these down in two Tabasco bottles so they can freely spin. Tilt
slightly forward so they point in front of you. When you walk over the
line, they will both swing towards the center. Beware, though. They will
also pick up sprinkler lines, sewer lines, water lines, etc.

If you have a light touch, make a round fist, just touching your first
finger to the tip of your thumb. Your hand would look just like were
holding an invisible broom handle. Do the same thing with the wires.

It works. Used it countless times to locate lines.

Steve

Locate the wire by clouds of steam and smoke coming from the ground, along
the path of the wire?

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
A similar method that has been used is to turn off power to the
circuit, strip the wires on the load end, and twist them tightly
together, attach a wire nut, and then wrap the wire nut with electrical
tape.

In the circuit panel, take the wires feeding the circuit and remove
them from the circuit breaker and reattach directly to the incoming
mains power.

Matt wrote:
Jack Kennedy... he's the guy who got his 45Kt. PT Boat ran over by a
30Kt. Destroyer that he was supposed to be hunting for.
(Enemy destroyer, during wartime, you know...)


Yeah, thats him.

Same guy that later looked the Russians in the eye and told them to
**** off.

You'll remember - think about it some more.

You know, the reason there havn't been nukes pointed at the US, sitting
just off Florida for the last 40+ years.

(Nukes, maniacal dictator, near instantaneous delivery time to the US,
you know...)



Not even Castro would be stupid enough to use one since we had a hundred
or so pointed at him.



--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.

Gort wrote:
Matt wrote:
Jack Kennedy... he's the guy who got his 45Kt. PT Boat ran over by
a
30Kt. Destroyer that he was supposed to be hunting for.
(Enemy destroyer, during wartime, you know...)


Yeah, thats him.

Same guy that later looked the Russians in the eye and told them to
**** off.

You'll remember - think about it some more.

You know, the reason there havn't been nukes pointed at the US,
sitting
just off Florida for the last 40+ years.

(Nukes, maniacal dictator, near instantaneous delivery time to the
US,
you know...)



Not even Castro would be stupid enough to use one since we had a
hundred
or so pointed at him.



--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.

Thanks to JFK, we will never know.

I've had more success with mine. But as you note, the cable might be
several feet down.

blueman wrote:
Bennett Price writes:

A $35 tool like the following will do the trick
http://tinyurl.com/agr9z



I would seriously doubt that such tool would be any help in tracing
(properly) *buried* wire as per the OP. Heck, these tools have enough
trouble going through 3/4" of sheetrock.

"Matt" wrote in message
If you can't tell that my original post wasn't serious - you have been
catching WAY too many CRT rays.

It was way too stupid to be serious. The only thing more stupid was posting
it in the first place, because there is always the possibility that someone
out there is stupid enough to try it.

Bob

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Matt :
You could have just said "Ya know - your right".

But that's not what he said, now is it?.

I suggest you read it again.

What makes you think he can read?

Bob

The same mystical power that compels you to believe Chris can be "made
to think".

Matt,
There is just NO excuse for giving bad advice. If you don't know what
you are talking about, just listen and SHUT UP! If you are a plumber,
give plumbing advice and skip the other stuff, except to listen. It is
obvious you know nothing about electricity. If you want to do
something stupid to yourself, that is your problem. Don't suggest it
to someone else who may not know the difference.

Stretch

Jimbo,


Can't you just go away?


Thanks
Matt




Matt,

Can't YOU just go away instead?

Stretch

Stretch,

If the reader can't tell good advice from bad, and is coming here to
get info on how to fix something that could easily kill them, then it
makes no difference *what* advice is given.

Or perhaps you havn't seen the discussion in the Spa thread where all
the supposed experts - the ones who continually spew out their supposed
"knowledge" - can't even come to a consensus on what a short circuit
is.

It's usenet. I'll say what I want, when I want to.

If you don't like it, use your killfile.

Welcome to America.

Matt

Bennett Price wrote:

A $35 tool like the following will do the trick
http://tinyurl.com/agr9z



Bennett,

That works well if you can already see the wire, i.e. you can touch the
wire with the device. It is great for picking a hot wire out of a
bundle of dead ones. It won't work well for a wire buried 6 to 12
inches deep in dirt.

Matt,
I have a tool that will sense a wire a couple of feet deep, but it cost
about $220. Call an electrician. If you destroy the wire in the
process of finding it, you aren't saving any money!

Stretch

Matt,
I have a tool that will sense a wire a couple of feet deep, but it
cost
about $220. Call an electrician. If you destroy the wire in the
process of finding it, you aren't saving any money!


Stretch -

Does the expression "Well, Duh!" mean anything to you?

Matt

DanG posted for all of us...

Useless advice.
=20
Locating services that mark local utilities are responsible only=20
to the metering device. You can beg and plead and might get an=20
individual locator to spot the lines for you, but his corporate=20
response is supposed to be "no way" and I absolutely will not give=20
a depth indication.
=20
(top posted for your inconvenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)

=20
=20
=20
"Tekkie=AE" wrote in message=20
ganews.com...
Ray posted for all of us...

The previous owner of my home burried some Romex to power up a=20
pool pump and
he ran a branch to a receptacle for a non existent sheded off=20
this to
provide a receptacle to a non existent shed.

I like to do some trenching in my yard to run conduit to a=20
workshop that I
built but want to avoid the existing romex.

Is there a way/device to help me find the burried romex. I=20
tried a metal
detector and after adjusting the sensitivity it still picks up=20
a lot of
stray stuff in my yard and does not give me a clear picture of=20
the location
of the romex.

Thanks,



Use your areas "one call" system.
--=20

Tekkie=20
=20
=20
=20
Hey top posting Danny Boy what magical advice did you come up with other th=
an slam me?

Did you read some of the other responses; didn't think so.

So take your useless top posting; usless post and be gone...
--=20

Tekkie

Matt,
When I joined this group, I thought that you were being abused by some
of the other members, they treated you so badly. It is obvious now
that you deserve it. You are a spoiled brat, who just wants attention,
and gets it by making trouble for other people. No, I will not lower
myself to your level by cussing you out like some others, but it is
apparent that you are no account. I don't have a kill file, and don't
intend to get one, but you are still easy to ignore. The alt.hvac
problem is not paul's debacle, it is yours. Anyone on any of these
groups will know that in a few weeks or less. I'm surprised how long
it took me to find out how big of a (fill in the blank)_________ you
are. Everyone else knows also. No-one wants to joine a new group with
you. Not even the other (Same Blank)_____________. As the travelocity
gnome says "Ignoring you, ignoring you!".

Stretch

Way to go, Matt!
"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
A similar method that has been used is to turn off power to the
circuit, strip the wires on the load end, and twist them tightly
together, attach a wire nut, and then wrap the wire nut with electrical
tape.

In the circuit panel, take the wires feeding the circuit and remove
them from the circuit breaker and reattach directly to the incoming
mains power.

I'm with Matt on this one. Usenet is a form of entertainment sprinkled with
an occasional nugget of wisdom. If you don't like the environment or the
visitors or their style, feel free to GO AWAY!
"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
The same mystical power that compels you to believe Chris can be "made
to think".

In article , "Craven Morehead" wrote:
I'm with Matt on this one.

Birds of a feather....

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time

Obviously, you do.

On 4 May 2005 07:34:46 -0700, wrote:

Shouldnt use romex in the first place, remove it by finding where it
comes out and start pulling it up. Easy to find them


Romex is a brand name, they do make UF cable also, so maybe he's
reading off the box.

tom

On Wed, 4 May 2005 08:32:26 -0500, "Ray" wrote:

The previous owner of my home burried some Romex to power up a pool pump and
he ran a branch to a receptacle for a non existent sheded off this to
provide a receptacle to a non existent shed.

I like to do some trenching in my yard to run conduit to a workshop that I
built but want to avoid the existing romex.

Is there a way/device to help me find the burried romex. I tried a metal
detector and after adjusting the sensitivity it still picks up a lot of
stray stuff in my yard and does not give me a clear picture of the location
of the romex.

Thanks,



You left out some things, do you want to keep the power and just
trying to be safe while 'trenching'? Do you think your 'trenching' is
deep enough to catch any burred wires?

Have you found the ends of their burried cable?

tom

They have devices to do what you are asking. They are expensive and
your electric company may have them. If you are not willing to pay to
find them then you will have to dig it up (no real short cuts).

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, "Matt" wrote:

Thanks Doug.

Cause, I mean, I was serious and everything, and I really expected
someone to actually believe it.


So you said something stupid, got called out, and now you're pretending it was
a joke all along - which makes you look even sillier than you already did.

On the off chance that this really *was* a joke -- that's even more stupid.
Many people who post here know even less about electrical safety than you do,
and do *not* have the technical competence to distinguish between good advice,
dangerously stupid advice, and dumb jokes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug
I'm sorry but I am one of the most reactive safety guys around and I
knew it was a JOKE.
--
Tom

wrote:
On 4-May-2005, "Matt" wrote:


If someone goes out to usenet and follows advice that gets them killed,
then they shouldn't have been messing with it in the first place.

Usenet is not a qualified, guaranteed safe source of information FOR
ANYTHING, and I don't recall getting the memo that said if you follow
advice given here, everything will turn out just dandy.


No doubt all true. However...
Speaking hypothetically suppose some idiot did follow your advice and
shorted the mains and for arguments sake let's say they lived. Then let's
say they sued you for giving them this advice to begin with. It's not
likely they really have a case but they do have the right to sue I believe
(I'm not sure, not an attorney).

So ok, you make your above point and you do probably win the case.

Do you think that the judge or civil adjutant or whoever is just going to
say very good carry on? I think that you would most like have a discussion
with someone in authority about the wisdom of giving life threatening advice
in any forum.

If the person following your advice died I think that while you still might
legally prevail that discussion would be a tad more serious. And some
prosecutor somewhere might make it their business to hit you with some
charge and they might just make it stick.

Not a good idea giving out life threatening advice even if it's obviously a
joke. Just too dangerous.
ml

Sorry but no. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know that to have a
cause of action at law the person you are suing must have had a duty to
you that they breached. It is decided law that advice given freely is
worth what you pay for it and creates no duty toward the hearer.
--
Tom H

stretch wrote:
Matt,
There is just NO excuse for giving bad advice. If you don't know what
you are talking about, just listen and SHUT UP! If you are a plumber,
give plumbing advice and skip the other stuff, except to listen. It is
obvious you know nothing about electricity. If you want to do
something stupid to yourself, that is your problem. Don't suggest it
to someone else who may not know the difference.

Stretch


Sorry guys but I'm with Matt on this one. Anyone who got killed
following that joking advice who had yet to have children should be a
shoe in for the top Darwin Award for the year.
--
Tom

According to Matt :

Now we are up to manslaughter. That was quick!

Obviously, the bettter answer is B.

Now, counsel, if you would: please explain to me how I got charged with
manslaughter.

You recommended something that you _knew_ could lead to injury
or death - which is well beyond negligent homicide.

If you were lucky and the person didn't die, you'd likely
only be charged with civil assault. And you'd lose.

[Little known fact: civil "assault" doesn't mean someone
is injured by your direct actions. Doing something that
a "reasonable person" would/should have known could cause
injury is sufficient. Even if it's a joke.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to HorneTD :

Sorry but no. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know that to have a
cause of action at law the person you are suing must have had a duty to
you that they breached. It is decided law that advice given freely is
worth what you pay for it and creates no duty toward the hearer.

Uh, no. It _helps_ to be sure. Particularly for professionals handing
out free advice, but sometimes being a professional may make it worse.

It's by no means a slam dunk. There's never _zero_ duty of care.

Given a sufficiently egregious stupidity, _nothing_ will save you.

Matt's being a case in point. He'd be in even more danger if he
were a "pro".
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Mon, 09 May 2005 17:43:08 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Matt :

Now we are up to manslaughter. That was quick!

Obviously, the bettter answer is B.

Now, counsel, if you would: please explain to me how I got charged with
manslaughter.

You recommended something that you _knew_ could lead to injury
or death - which is well beyond negligent homicide.

If you were lucky and the person didn't die, you'd likely
only be charged with civil assault. And you'd lose.

[Little known fact: civil "assault" doesn't mean someone
is injured by your direct actions. Doing something that
a "reasonable person" would/should have known could cause
injury is sufficient. Even if it's a joke.

So, if I said to someone, "Go f**k yourself...", and they did and got
pregnant because of it, would that imply paternity and/or financial
responsibility?

Chris Lewis

DJ

Matt,

Can't YOU just go away instead?

Stretch




Stretch -

Aren't there some buried cables that need to be located in your yard
somewhere?

Matt

According to DJ :
So, if I said to someone, "Go f**k yourself...", and they did and got
pregnant because of it, would that imply paternity and/or financial
responsibility?

"Reasonable person test" would fail ;-)

That said, a common "sample case" shown in law courses is where
a guy said to the wife of a friend "your husband just got killed
in a car accident" as a joke. Wife faints, falls down the stairs
and injures herself.

"Reasonable man test" says "a reasonable person would
know, or ought to have known that there was a good chance
it'd be believed, and if believed, something "bad" has a
reasonable chance of happening".

_That_ is civil assault.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris,

All the examples you have given involve people who know each other.

Mix in the randomness/anonymity of usenet, and then cite some cases for
me.

Matt

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these newsgroup postings archived by the
server networks? If that is the case all Matts comments would be real easy
to find if someone did feel he caused them harm and wanted to take legal
action. It's interesting to note that some of his follow up comments are
almost more damaging to his credability than his initial comments on how to
trace an underground wire by shorting out your main fuse box.

Just my opinion

Jimbo


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to HorneTD :

Sorry but no. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know that to have a
cause of action at law the person you are suing must have had a duty to
you that they breached. It is decided law that advice given freely is
worth what you pay for it and creates no duty toward the hearer.

Uh, no. It _helps_ to be sure. Particularly for professionals handing
out free advice, but sometimes being a professional may make it worse.

It's by no means a slam dunk. There's never _zero_ duty of care.

Given a sufficiently egregious stupidity, _nothing_ will save you.

Matt's being a case in point. He'd be in even more danger if he
were a "pro".
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Jimbo,

Yes, my post and about 2.5 billion others.

Go check the "ground a computer" thread. At least 25 people gave advice
that could kill multiple people at the same time, and - they were being
serious.

Me getting hit with a lawsuit seems to fascinate you - why not go trace
some buried wire tonight, using my method?

Cya in the court room, you freakin loser.

If you don't all ready realize it "F" this and "Freakin Loser" etc. etc.
do more to lower your credability than anything I or anyone could possibly
say about you.

I think it's obvious to almost everyone following this thread that you love
to be the center of attention and I'm sure there's a medical condition that
would explain your problem but that's a topic for another newsgroup.

Jimbo

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jimbo,

Yes, my post and about 2.5 billion others.

Go check the "ground a computer" thread. At least 25 people gave advice
that could kill multiple people at the same time, and - they were being
serious.

Me getting hit with a lawsuit seems to fascinate you - why not go trace
some buried wire tonight, using my method?

Cya in the court room, you freakin loser.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to HorneTD :


Sorry but no. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know that to have a
cause of action at law the person you are suing must have had a duty to
you that they breached. It is decided law that advice given freely is
worth what you pay for it and creates no duty toward the hearer.


Uh, no. It _helps_ to be sure. Particularly for professionals handing
out free advice, but sometimes being a professional may make it worse.

It's by no means a slam dunk. There's never _zero_ duty of care.

Given a sufficiently egregious stupidity, _nothing_ will save you.

Matt's being a case in point. He'd be in even more danger if he
were a "pro".

I'll take it on faith that you have actually researched this in your
state and assume that is correct there, but in Maryland no duty = no
cause of action. I had to take four semesters of the stuff for my fire
service public safety degree. All six of the lawyers who taught the
courses at the University of Maryland at College Park said the same
thing "you must have a duty to a person before there can be a cause of
action at law."

An example of this concept is called the "Doctrine of Rescue." You can
be an Olympic class swimmer, a trained lifeguard, and be at the beach
for the express purpose of practicing lifesaving techniques but as long
as you have not voluntarily taken on the duties of a lifeguard at that
beach you can watch someone drown with legal impunity. The doctrine of
rescue states that "no one can be required at law to imperil them self
to rescue another from their own folly." The life guards who did not go
to the rescue of a shark attack victim off of their beach successfully
had all the cases against them dismissed during pretrial motions under
the doctrine of rescue. The Florida Courts recognized that entering the
water during a shark attack was beyond the scope of their duties. The
state court of appeals declined Certiorari and let the dismissals stand
without comment.

In order to win this one you are going to have to sight an appeals court
decision that upholds a judgment against a person who gave free advice
without any hope of gain were the injury complained of was the result of
that advice. That would be what is called a case on point. Anything
short of that is just the pair of us blowing smoke.
--
Tom

According to HorneTD :
I'll take it on faith that you have actually researched this in your
state and assume that is correct there, but in Maryland no duty = no
cause of action. I had to take four semesters of the stuff for my fire
service public safety degree.

I've taken law courses too, where this stuff was covered in depth.

Law is an _attempt_ to apply reasonability to individual cases,
yet using formalized language that works consistently and fairly
in _all_ cases.

That's an enormous challenge when you think about it.

We forget that every case differs. If, when you look at a "case",
that it'd be "reasonable" for it to be decided in a given way,
it probably would be. Lawyers get paid for figuring out how
the case fits in with pre-established doctrines of reasonability.

All six of the lawyers who taught the
courses at the University of Maryland at College Park said the same
thing "you must have a duty to a person before there can be a cause of
action at law."

Right. What you're missing is that "duty" (if any) is assessed on a
case-by-case basis. Failing to act to save someone (your "doctrine
of rescue" example) is an act of omission (I'll point out that
some jurisdictions give you an obligation to act under "reasonable
man doctrine", but that isn't at issue here).

Giving advice is an act of _commission_. There is some level of "duty"
on _every_ act of commission. It's virtually never zero.

When you give advice to someone, there is a "duty" to not endanger
the person who might take it. How far that duty goes depends on
factors individual to each and every case.

Factors such as:

1) If you're an expert/professional in the field or not.
2) If you're being paid for it or not.
[professionals in a field are held to higher standards of duty,
being paid for a specific thing just raises the duty higher.]
3) If the advice is wrong or not.
4) If the advice is wrong, and you _knew_ it.
5) If it was apparent that the person receiving the advice is
likely to hurt themselves (due to lack of knowledge) and you
fail to warn them of that.

No combination of the above factors reduces your "duty" (meaning:
risk of being sued or losing the suit) to zero.

Let's say you're being paid to do a job, and your a certified
professional. You deliberately give bad/dangerous advice. You
breached your duty, the penalties will be severe.

But if you weren't certified and not paid, you've _still_
breached a duty, the risk of losing the suit may be lower
(but not zero) and the penalties may be lower.

I personally feel that any advice given in forums such as this
should be as accurate as we can make it. Because people
_do_ use advice they see here - and that implies a duty on
those who give it.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.