I have no particular desire to 'set light' again to this highly emotive and
contentious subject, but having just had one on the bench, I feel that I've
got to have one last stab at defending the little beast ...

It's only problem was that it was a bit iffy at playing CDs, due to a worn
laser, which was literally 5 minutes work to replace, due to the simple and
serviceman-friendly construction that is employed. It looked as though it
had given stirling service over a number of years to its owner, judging by
the amount of dust in it. There was no indication that the owner was in any
way displeased with the way that the unit worked, or sounded.

Once it was fixed, I took the additional time to give it a subjective
evaluation, just to see if I was wrong in my belief that these Waves *do*
work well. You may recall that when I was arguing this with a group
contributor a couple of weeks back, I contended that the sound was "stunning
both in its overall quality and spatial definition", a statement that I was
later castigated for, despite trying in as many ways as I knew how, to
qualify it as being compared to similar sized portable and semi-portable
items from other manufacturers, and not multi-thousand dollar 'reference'
systems with $11,000 speakers on the end. So let me try again with regard to
the word "stunning". I used it in a colloquial way rather than literally, to
mean 'enough to take me by surprise'. I accept that 'American' English tends
to be a bit more literal than 'British English', which may have led to my
intended meaning being misconstrued.

So, what did I find this time? Well, despite the howls from the usual
suspects to the contrary, I would still like to compare this to portable
units, as it is a similar weight, has similarly spaced speakers of similar
size, is overall of a similar size, has similar functionality, and runs from
direct line power, as most general portables also do, and as most owners
actually run them, as the cost of putting 8 D cells in them is prohibitive.
The only thing it lacks is a carrying handle, to make the task of moving it
from room to room, just that little bit easier.

I played a variety of CDs in it, from Pavarotti to The Scissor Sisters, and
sorry folks, but I am going to stick to my guns on this one.

Compared to similar units - that's not stacking systems, not reference
systems, not single or multi-piece bookshelf systems, not the best mini hifi
that Electrical Barn Inc can offer - I still believe that the Wave Radio
delivers superb sound. It might not give you the best (perceived) sound
quality per buck, but by the same token, I don't believe that the claims
made by Bose for this item, are too far out of line, allowing for marketing
hype, that we discussed at length, last time.

The sound that it delivered on all of the material that I tried on it, was
crisp, full bodied, well-defined spatially - within the obvious constraints
of speakers separated by only a few inches, but remember that we're still
not comparing to anything *other* than similarly sized units - and most
certainly didn't lack in bass, given that the drivers are only 3" or
whatever. In fact, when I wound the wick up, the bass shook the bench, and I
could quite clearly 'feel' the bass punching me in the chest. The amount of
air that the speakers were shifting, was enough to blow out a candle. Now I
know that I am not an audiophile, but 35 years of repairing hifi has left me
with an ear that's not too bad, and even with the volume elevated to a level
that would be ridiculous in most listening situations, those same little
speakers gave a very creditable performance in terms of perceived
distortion. I would have said that the unit would withstand 'party' use
without any problem.

So where am I now on it all ? Just about exactly where I was before, I
think, and that is that I still feel that the Wave Radio delivers basically
what it claims, and could hold its own against bigger better systems in
*some* instances. I have no more or less interest in it as a product, or in
Bose as a company, than I did before. I still don't think that for me, Bose
products are particularly good value for money, but then neither is a
Ferrari, or an Armani suit, unless you've got sufficient money that it
doesn't matter to you. I don't believe now, any more than I did before, that
Bose as a company, set out to lie to and deceive the public.

Understand that this is all a personal opinion, including my feelings about
the sound of the Wave Radio, and does not address any of their other
products. Despite what some on here might believe, we all have a right to
our opinions, defended or not.

OK then, get your Doc Martens on, and start kicking ... d;~}

Arfa

Mr. Daily, I think you're deliberately ignoring the issue. It's rather like
defending Thomas Kinkaid's wretchedly awful paintings by saying you like his
brushwork.

The issue is not so much the sound quality of the Wave radio, but the way
Bose promotes it. I assure you, if Bose did not advertise the Wave radio the
way it does -- with gross misrepresentations and outright lies -- we would
not be discussing it here. The Wave would simply be one other overpriced
mediocrity.

If a business misrepresents or lies about its products or services, those
who know better have an obligation to speak the truth. Bose has no special
right to be protected from criticism.

As I've said before, most people are ignorant, not cloth-eared. Give them a
choice between mediocre sound and good sound, and they'll generally choose
the latter. (I know, because I've seen it. *) Bose's advertising and
marketing is designed to reduce the probability the customer will ever make
such a comparison.

The dealers are guilty, too. They're not allowed to discount Bose, and
they're obliged to demonstrate Bose products in a way that complements the
customer's prejudice to buy Bose. When you make a guaranteed 40% (I assume)
on each sale, and you need to turn a profit to stay in business, the
temptation to carry mediocre products from a lying manufacturer must be
overwhelming. **

I believe Bose's product design and marketing are directed at women. Women
don't like hardware in "their" living rooms. The smaller the product, the
better. And women seem to have a strange inability to operate any kind of
mechanical or electronic device. So the Bose's simple remote control is
appealing. ***

Hell, man, I ain't buying _nothin'_ that was designed for a _woman_.

The Wave probably has better drivers than those in most all-in-one
portables. But they don't work well, because they should be mounted on the
top of the radio. You can demonstrate this for yourself simply by tilting up
the radio a few inches. You should hear a big reduction in overall
coloration. If Bose is so knowledgable about audio, why wasn't this obvious
flaw caught and corrected?

Sorry, no. BOSE LIES. And that needs to be repeated over and over.


It's only problem was that it was a bit iffy at playing CDs, due to a worn
laser, which was literally 5 minutes work to replace, due to the simple
and
serviceman-friendly construction that is employed. It looked as though it
had given stirling [sic] service over a number of years to its owner,
judging
by the amount of dust in it. There was no indication that the owner was
in any way displeased with the way that the unit worked, or sounded.

You mean it hadn't been thrown against a concrete wall in a fit of rage when
the owner realized he'd spent too much for too little?

* 40+ years ago I bought a KLH Model 11 FM portable stereo. My parents had a
Westinghouse fruitwood console. (My father worked for Westinghouse and the
console was one of a number of gifts he received for selling a lot of
refrigerators.) It wasn't bad-sounding, but hardly hi-fi. They _immediately_
commented on the superior sound of the KLH, which had a lower retail price,
and used a single 3" driver on each channel. The KLH was _extremely_
difficult to set up -- you had to attach the power cord and connect the
speakers, an effort requiring a near-genius IQ.
Another example... A few years ago a friend asked me to help him pick out a
hi-fi system. He'd just bought a discontinued Adcom power amp, which had
(and still has) a good reputation. I decided the best approach was not to
tell him what to buy, but what _not_ to buy. That way, he'd get something he
liked, and I wouldn't have to talk him into something that didn't really
appeal to him. Well... He wound up with a discontinued Krell preamp -- and
Martin-Logan electrostatic speakers. It wasn't an expensive system (even if
he'd paid full price for the electronics, which he didn't), but it sounded
_good_. It was one of those rare combinations of "pleasing" and "accurate".
It was an excellent choice, and he made it all by himself.

** When I worked at Barclay Recording & Electronics 30 years ago, the owner
told us we could carry any product line we wanted, if we thought we could
sell it. As a result, we took on several manufacturers whose products we
were enthusiastic about, and could honestly promote.

*** Almost 50 years ago, Poplular Electronics published an construction
project for a device that would turn on an amplifier when the turntable was
turned on. (There have been commercial versions of such products.) The
author admitted he designed it because his wife (or mother -- I forget
which) was incapable of remembering that, in order to play a record, you
also had to turn on the amplifier.

It's only problem was that it was a bit iffy at playing CDs, due to a
worn
laser, which was literally 5 minutes work to replace, due to the simple
and
serviceman-friendly construction that is employed. It looked as though it
had given stirling [sic] service over a number of years to its owner,
judging
by the amount of dust in it. There was no indication that the owner was
in any way displeased with the way that the unit worked, or sounded.

You mean it hadn't been thrown against a concrete wall in a fit of rage
when
the owner realized he'd spent too much for too little?


Boy oh boy. You really do have a jaundiced view don't you ? You really just
can't help yourself. You make a rational (in your mind) post, and then go
and throw that remark in. It has no justification whatsoever, given that I
went to the trouble of stating that the owner was in no way displeased with
his purchase. It ranks alongside the first remark that you made before, when
you said that anyone asking for help with a Bose, was asking for trouble.
And just so you know, I don't believe that all your ludicrously convoluted
arguments actually did answer the basic question of what exactly you meant
by that remark, except that he was likely to get a baseless kicking from
people such as yourself, who believe themselves to be superior in the
esoteric world of high fidelity sound.

And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person whose
name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several times a week.

Arfa

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:07:33 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Sorry, no. BOSE LIES. And that needs to be repeated over and over.

Arfa's post was his opinion about the sound and not a soapbox for you to
stand upon and spew about Boses's lies. I agree 100% with Arfa, the sound
is superb given the size of the unit. Sorry you're obsessed over the way
Bose promoted it but that wasn't what this post was about.

It doesn't matter what his post was about, because his post has nothing to
do with the real issue -- Bose lies.

Boy oh boy. You really do have a jaundiced view don't you ? You really
just
can't help yourself. You make a rational (in your mind) post, and then go
and throw that remark in. It has no justification whatsoever, given that I
went to the trouble of stating that the owner was in no way displeased
with
his purchase.

What does whether the customer likes or dislikes the product have to do with
its quality? You brought up the point.

As for my rationality... Feel free (seriously) to attack my points, one by
one. You're going to have a hard time contra-dicting them.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
Boy oh boy. You really do have a jaundiced view don't you ? You really
just
can't help yourself. You make a rational (in your mind) post, and then go
and throw that remark in. It has no justification whatsoever, given that
I
went to the trouble of stating that the owner was in no way displeased
with
his purchase.

What does whether the customer likes or dislikes the product have to do
with
its quality? You brought up the point.

As for my rationality... Feel free (seriously) to attack my points, one by
one. You're going to have a hard time contra-dicting them.



I'm sorry my friend. I am not normally given to throwing insults into the
mix, but you misread and change the context of things to suit your twisted
view of the company. Of course what my post was about is relevant, and I
said nothing about the quality. It was YOU who tried to bring that up by
throwing in one of your senseless remarks again, about the owner suddenly
realising that he had been 'duped', and in a fit of rage, throwing it up a
concrete wall. HE doesn't think that he has been duped. HE thinks that he
has a product that suited him when he bought it, and continues to do so.
Either you are deliberately trying to wind me up, or you are genuinely
misguided to the point of stupidity. You really are a little 'wrong' in the
head, I think. Either that, or an out and out ****, and I have no interest
at all in your bigoted ranting, and still less in trying to contradict any
of your worthless points.

Arfa

I'm sorry my friend. I am not normally given to throwing insults into the
mix, but you misread and change the context of things to suit your twisted
view of the company. Of course what my post was about is relevant, and I
said nothing about the quality. It was YOU who tried to bring that up by
throwing in one of your senseless remarks again, about the owner suddenly
realising that he had been 'duped', and in a fit of rage, throwing it up a
concrete wall. HE doesn't think that he has been duped. HE thinks that he
has a product that suited him when he bought it, and continues to do so.

Either you are deliberately trying to wind me up...

A little.


...or you are genuinely misguided to the point of stupidity. You really
are a
little 'wrong' in the head, I think.

My friends consider me one of the most-sensible people they know. Shall I
drop names?


Either that, or an out and out ****, and I have no interest at all in your
bigoted
ranting, and still less in trying to contradict any of your worthless
points.

I can understand your initial annoyance at my trying to get the OP to sell
his Bose. But your continued defense of a mediocre product form a dishonest
company is hard to understand. Speaking the truth is not bigotry.

My points are not worthless. I urge you to think about what I wrote, and
decide whether they make any sense.

You'll note that I'm not asking you to believe me, or anyone else -- I
rarely, if ever, argue by "appealing to authority". I ask you to think about
these things, and make up your own mind.

Arfa Daily wrote:



And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person whose
name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several times a week.


Not.. _The_ Stirling? ex GP driver and all round good egg?

Ron(UK)

It proves nothing to anyone to argue over material objects .

I like those Altec IM7 ipod speakers . They really sound nice too .

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry my friend. I am not normally given to throwing insults into the
mix, but you misread and change the context of things to suit your
twisted
view of the company. Of course what my post was about is relevant, and I
said nothing about the quality. It was YOU who tried to bring that up by
throwing in one of your senseless remarks again, about the owner suddenly
realising that he had been 'duped', and in a fit of rage, throwing it up
a
concrete wall. HE doesn't think that he has been duped. HE thinks that he
has a product that suited him when he bought it, and continues to do so.

Either you are deliberately trying to wind me up...

A little.


...or you are genuinely misguided to the point of stupidity. You really
are a
little 'wrong' in the head, I think.

My friends consider me one of the most-sensible people they know. Shall I
drop names?


Either that, or an out and out ****, and I have no interest at all in
your
bigoted
ranting, and still less in trying to contradict any of your worthless
points.

I can understand your initial annoyance at my trying to get the OP to sell
his Bose. But your continued defense of a mediocre product form a
dishonest
company is hard to understand. Speaking the truth is not bigotry.


Au contraire. Truth has to be provably factual, to be truth. When a set of
ideas are put forward as an incontrovertible truth, and they are actually
nothing more than a strongly held belief, that is bigotry.



My points are not worthless. I urge you to think about what I wrote, and
decide whether they make any sense.


To me, and others who have commented, in the context of what the thread was
about, they don't.



You'll note that I'm not asking you to believe me, or anyone else -- I
rarely, if ever, argue by "appealing to authority". I ask you to think
about
these things, and make up your own mind.




I have, and I have, but because I arrive at an opinion that is contrary to
yours, you cannot accept that it has any validity. By the back door, that
*is* asking - possibly demanding actually - that people believe you. As long
as you keep reading what I say, and then putting your own interpretive
'spin' on it to arrive at another unrelated point, then those points will
continue to be worthless. I too have a hard time understanding why *you* are
having such a hard time understanding my position. I *would* say that it is
an 'American thing' to do with the different way that the English language
is understood either side of the pond, but even that doesn't work, because
you seem to be the only American having trouble understanding me.

The fact that your friends think that you are rational, is neither here nor
there. Perhaps they are as odd as you, in which case, you would all appear
normal to each other.

I'm sure that over there, you must have a government consumer protection
agency, much the same as we have here. If you really honestly and truly
believe that Bose are deliberately lying about their products, with the
express purpose of deceiving the general public, then this must constitute a
breach of some federal law. It most certainly would here, and in your far
more litigious society, I can't believe that it wouldn't there. This being
the case, why have you not 'gone for it' and reported them ? If you honestly
believe that your arguments and expertise in the field, are strong enough to
prove that they are lying - and by the way you defend those arguments on
here, and insist that they are "the truth", you surely do - then you should
easily get the result of stopping them, and possibly costing them a lot of
money in fines. If you truly have the courage of your convictions, would
this not be the ultimate 'best result' ?

But I fear that you will not go down that route, because when push comes to
shove, your convictions will not be quite as strong as you would have us
believe. I'm beginning to think now that in fact you are a mild troll, whose
object in creating these circular arguments is, if only "a little", to wind
others up.

Arfa

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:



And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person whose
name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several times a
week.


Not.. _The_ Stirling? ex GP driver and all round good egg?

Ron(UK)

Sorry Ron, but nah! as they say. This Stirling is a little Scottish lad who
runs the spares department at a company that I do work for. And it's his
last name, not first. How's life up there at Lune Valley, anyway. I see that
you are currently not carrying out any service work. Nothing serious wrong,
I hope ?

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
OK then, get your Doc Martens on, and start kicking ... d;~}

"To each his own," said the old lady as she kissed the cow.

--
One meter, to within 0.0125% accuracy (off by just under .005 inches):
Three feet
Three inches
Three eights of an inch

On Oct 31, 1:25 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
I'm sorry my friend. I am not normally given to throwing insults into the
mix, but you misread and change the context of things to suit your twisted
view of the company. Of course what my post was about is relevant, and I
said nothing about the quality. It was YOU who tried to bring that up by
throwing in one of your senseless remarks again, about the owner suddenly
realising that he had been 'duped', and in a fit of rage, throwing it up a
concrete wall. HE doesn't think that he has been duped. HE thinks that he
has a product that suited him when he bought it, and continues to do so.
Either you are deliberately trying to wind me up...

A little.



...or you are genuinely misguided to the point of stupidity. You really
are a
little 'wrong' in the head, I think.

My friends consider me one of the most-sensible people they know. Shall I
drop names?

Either that, or an out and out ****, and I have no interest at all in your
bigoted
ranting, and still less in trying to contradict any of your worthless

points.

I can understand your initial annoyance at my trying to get the OP to sell
his Bose. But your continued defense of a mediocre product form a dishonest
company is hard to understand. Speaking the truth is not bigotry.

My points are not worthless. I urge you to think about what I wrote, and
decide whether they make any sense.

You'll note that I'm not asking you to believe me, or anyone else -- I
rarely, if ever, argue by "appealing to authority". I ask you to think about
these things, and make up your own mind.

Could you please tell me what the lies are that Bose is accused of? I
must have missed that post.

H. R.(Bob) Hofmann

In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:07:33 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Sorry, no. BOSE LIES. And that needs to be repeated over and over.

Arfa's post was his opinion about the sound and not a soapbox for you to
stand upon and spew about Boses's lies. I agree 100% with Arfa, the sound
is superb given the size of the unit. Sorry you're obsessed over the way
Bose promoted it but that wasn't what this post was about.

It doesn't matter what his post was about, because his post has nothing to
do with the real issue -- Bose lies.

Well, there you have it, Arfa. Your comments have been summarily
dismissed as irrelevant by the Great Pontificator. Now go to your room,
and not another peep out of you.

William, forgive my weak memory. What was the Big Lie that Bose keeps
perpetuating? I remember it being some verifiable, quantifiable thing...
frequency response specs? THD? Miles per gallon on the highway? Oh, now
I remember - "lush, room-filling sound." The filthy scumbags. I hope
your Noble Crusade to save the ignorant masses from Bose's sinister
hyperbole is a smashing success. It pains me deeply to think of millions
of consumers enjoying nothing more than figments of their weak and
gullible imaginations.

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 31, 1:25 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
I'm sorry my friend. I am not normally given to throwing insults into
the
mix, but you misread and change the context of things to suit your
twisted
view of the company. Of course what my post was about is relevant, and
I
said nothing about the quality. It was YOU who tried to bring that up
by
throwing in one of your senseless remarks again, about the owner
suddenly
realising that he had been 'duped', and in a fit of rage, throwing it
up a
concrete wall. HE doesn't think that he has been duped. HE thinks that
he
has a product that suited him when he bought it, and continues to do
so.
Either you are deliberately trying to wind me up...

A little.



...or you are genuinely misguided to the point of stupidity. You really
are a
little 'wrong' in the head, I think.

My friends consider me one of the most-sensible people they know. Shall I
drop names?

Either that, or an out and out ****, and I have no interest at all in
your
bigoted
ranting, and still less in trying to contradict any of your worthless

points.

I can understand your initial annoyance at my trying to get the OP to
sell
his Bose. But your continued defense of a mediocre product form a
dishonest
company is hard to understand. Speaking the truth is not bigotry.

My points are not worthless. I urge you to think about what I wrote, and
decide whether they make any sense.

You'll note that I'm not asking you to believe me, or anyone else -- I
rarely, if ever, argue by "appealing to authority". I ask you to think
about
these things, and make up your own mind.

Could you please tell me what the lies are that Bose is accused of? I
must have missed that post.

H. R.(Bob) Hofmann


Hi Bob. The original post which started this going, was from "hondgm @
yahoo", which appeared on my news server on 10th October, and was entitled
"Bose Wave Radio". Probably best if you just have a squint at that thread,
as there is quite a list of fundamental lies that Bose are apparently guilty
of. My issue was not with whether they are a company given to deliberate
lying, or not, but why owners of their equipment - even if they are totally
satisfied with their purchase - always get told that they are fools for
buying it, as it is lousy quality, very poor value for money, and doesn't
produce good sound, even if you are comparing it to a flea-market transistor
radio. As a person who repairs Bose equipment for a local main dealer, as
well as just about every other make in the UK marketplace, I actually
dispute many of the attacking 'facts' that are levelled at its owners, and
did so in this case. The original thread degenerated into a circular
argument. Most people seemed to understand my position, but one just
wouldn't (couldn't ??). Anyway, I just repaired a Wave Radio, and thought
that I would have a bit closer listen, and post the results. And that is
this thread ...

So read on, my friend, and either agree with me, or give me a kicking. I
really don't mind as long as you are objective about any comments ! d;~}

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

You'll note that I'm not asking you to believe me, or anyone else --
I rarely, if ever, argue by "appealing to authority". I ask you to think
about these things, and make up your own mind.

I have, and I have, but because I arrive at an opinion that is contrary
to yours, you cannot accept that it has any validity.

What I'm saying is not an opinion. It's fact. The Bose Wave radio is
mediocre, especially when held up against the standard of Bose's claims for
it. It's overpriced, because there are cheaper products that perform as well
or better. And Bose does not speak the truth about its products. (I consider
that lying, given Bose's stated claims of engineering expertise.) That's it.
These are all objective, factual, provable statements.

As friendly professor Peter Schickele so famously said, "Truth is truth. You
can't have opinions about truth."

Businesses rarely sue each other over product claims, probably because they
think it isn't worth the trouble, and the money would be better spent
misrepresenting their own products.

Rather than take Bose to court, I would prefer to find some magazine to
purchase all of Bose's products -- plus competitive products from other
companies -- so I could thoroughly test them for a printed review. This
would be much more effective than suing them.

Mr. Daily, you need to look to your own thinking. You think that one opinion
is as good as any other. It isn't. And you think that because you believe
something, it is necessarily true. (It took me a long, long time to grow out
of that. In fact, it took a long time for me to recognize that I -- and most
people -- actually thought that way.)

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

Hi Bob. The original post which started this going, was from "hondgm @
yahoo", which appeared on my news server on 10th October, and was entitled
"Bose Wave Radio". Probably best if you just have a squint at that thread,
as there is quite a list of fundamental lies that Bose are apparently
guilty
of. My issue was not with whether they are a company given to deliberate
lying, or not, but why owners of their equipment -- even if they are
totally
satisfied with their purchase -- always get told that they are fools for
buying it, as it is lousy quality, very poor value for money, and doesn't
produce good sound, even if you are comparing it to a flea-market
transistor
radio.

1. If a person is enticed by an ad claiming (or implying) that product B is
"absolutely the best", and they neglect to confirm this by comparing it with
compare-able products, then they are foolish.

2. Sonically, the Wave is of mediocre quality. As to the build quality, I
can't speak, but I assume Bose products are reasonably reliable. However,
there is that Web page where someone opens up one of their home-theater
systems and attacks it for poor driver quality and cabinet build.

3. Given its price, the Bose is poor value for the money. If I thought
otherwise, I would probably own one. (I might add that I've heard the
Cambridge SoundWorks 740, and was not impressed.)

http://reviews.cnet.com/audio-shelf-...-30600791.html

Note the wide range of opinions about its sound.

http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/s...item=c1745inzz

Note CSW's claim that "our SoundWorks Radio CD 745i reproduces music at its
best". Hello? "Best" is an _absolute_ comparative. It's as good as my
Parasound-biamped Apogee Divas? Or QUADs?

This CSW product is _another_ overpriced mediocrity -- and it's not from
Bose. With a bit of careful shopping, you can assemble a true component
system -- with separate speakers, receiver, and CD player -- that outclasses
the 740 in every way. Oh, it won't fit on your desktop? Well, who gives a
damn? Bose claims their products are as good as a roomful of components.

By the way, I have Mission M71i speakers in my bedroom, for casual
listening. They originally cost $225 a pair, and you can't believe how good
they are. I actually _enjoy_ listening to them, and I don't feel that way
about most inexpensive products. You could easily find a $100 receiver and
$75 DVD/CD player to round out the system at $400.

4. I've never heard anyone claim the Wave was inferior to "a flea-market
transistor radio".

Bose is almost universally reviled because they make mediocre products and
lie about them.

35 years ago, Bose manufactured a line of wretched-sounding direct-radiating
speakers -- I think it was called Compusound -- that dealers could sell for
a much lower price, while letting the customer know they were made by Bose.
I think we sold one pair. They were awful.

Even 35 years ago, it wasn't horribly difficult to make a modestly priced
speaker that had reasonably flat, uncolored sound. (Infinity had a $99
speaker, the POS-1 (yes!) that was nothing short of amazing.) Bose's piece
o' junk was intended to trade on the sucess of their other products, rather
than provide a high-quality product.

Bose might have had another motive. As I write this, I'm reminded of a story
my father used to tell me. He claimed that, back in the '30s, Gillette
manufactured a poor-quality electric shaver, in an attempt to make electric
shavers look bad. It's possible that Bose deliberately designed and sold
poor direct-radiating speakers to make their own direct/reflecting products
look better.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
William, forgive my weak memory. What was the Big Lie that Bose
keeps perpetuating? I remember it being some verifiable, quantifiable
thing... frequency response specs? THD? Miles per gallon on the
highway? Oh, now I remember - "lush, room-filling sound."

This is indeed a verifiable statement. Simply ask listeners to compare a
system that actually delivers such sound with the Bose.

There are other claims, such as their TV ads explicitly stating that the
Bose produces "life-like" sound, and is sonically comparable to larger,
more-complex systems. These are easily demolished untruths.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
William, forgive my weak memory. What was the Big Lie that Bose
keeps perpetuating? I remember it being some verifiable, quantifiable
thing... frequency response specs? THD? Miles per gallon on the
highway? Oh, now I remember - "lush, room-filling sound."

This is indeed a verifiable statement. Simply ask listeners to compare a
system that actually delivers such sound with the Bose.

There are other claims, such as their TV ads explicitly stating that the
Bose produces "life-like" sound, and is sonically comparable to larger,
more-complex systems. These are easily demolished untruths.



Lush Room Filling Sound is a Subjective observation and therefore an
opinion. There is no scale or measurement for Lush Room Filling Sound and no
matter how many people you ask it is still an opinion. Say I read a book and
say that is an excellent book, though someone else reads it and says it is
terrible. Well I want to prove the book is a good book so I let readers
compare it to another book. The results will be an opinion no matter who
reads it or how many people read it, even if they all say it is excellent.

"Michael Kennedy" wrote in message
...

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news

William, forgive my weak memory. What was the Big Lie that Bose
keeps perpetuating? I remember it being some verifiable, quantifiable
thing... frequency response specs? THD? Miles per gallon on the
highway? Oh, now I remember - "lush, room-filling sound."

This is indeed a verifiable statement. Simply ask listeners to compare a
system that actually delivers such sound with the Bose.

Lush Room Filling Sound is a Subjective observation and therefore an
opinion. There is no scale or measurement for Lush Room Filling Sound and
no
matter how many people you ask it is still an opinion. Say I read a book
and
say that is an excellent book, though someone else reads it and says it is
terrible. Well I want to prove the book is a good book so I let readers
compare it to another book. The results will be an opinion no matter who
reads it or how many people read it, even if they all say it is excellent.

I can set up a system that almost everyone would agree had "lush,
room-filling sound". It's not difficult to do.

With a bit of careful shopping, you can assemble a true component
system -- with separate speakers, receiver, and CD player -- that
outclasses
the 740 in every way. Oh, it won't fit on your desktop? Well, who gives a
damn? Bose claims their products are as good as a roomful of components.


Apples and oranges again ...

4. I've never heard anyone claim the Wave was inferior to "a flea-market
transistor radio".

Oh dear oh dear. That's called 'tongue in cheek' or 'wry' humour. It is not
meant to be taken literally, and the fact that you have, possibly reveals a
lot about your declared position on all of this ...


Bose might have had another motive. As I write this, I'm reminded of a
story
my father used to tell me. He claimed that, back in the '30s, Gillette
manufactured a poor-quality electric shaver, in an attempt to make
electric
shavers look bad. It's possible that Bose deliberately designed and sold
poor direct-radiating speakers to make their own direct/reflecting
products
look better.


That's just 'conspiracy theory'. 70 years ago, maybe, but it's probably just
urban myth anyway, and not something that I believe you could get away with
these days. And anyway, as it's just a "claim" made by your father, it has
no relevance to this discussion, where you appear to be absolutely driven
down the road of fact and truth.

I don't propose that you try and sue Bose yourself (as you have suggested in
another reply in this thread). If you did, you would probably finish up
ruined. But by the same token, you can't keep making these claims, without
having the balls to try to do something about them. You say (elsewhere) that
you would like to get a mag or whatever to do a full review of all of Bose's
products, and expose them for the liars that they are. So GET OFF YOUR ARSE
and do something. You can bleat on here all you like, but that is all it's
ever going to be.

You have said that you consider your experience justifies you being an anti
Bose evangelist, and you consider it to be your moral duty to advise people
who know less, of just what fools they are making of themselves, by
considering purchasing Bose products. Given that you occupy this moral
high-ground, and clearly consider it to be your mission in life to expose
Bose as liars and cheats, I would urge you to 'test the water' with some of
these magazines, or indeed with whatever serves in the U.S. as a consumer
protection agency, and see if anyone else out there *who actually matters*,
shares your view, and is prepared to join with you to do something about it.

Until such time as you can do this, and report back on your results, there
is little point in your continuing to post endless neatly numbered lists of
'proofs' for your beliefs. It really does remind me of when you get a couple
of JWs at the front door, who have carefully prepared and rehearsed 'proofs'
of every line in the bible ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person whose
name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several times a
week.

Not.. _The_ Stirling? ex GP driver and all round good egg?

Ron(UK)

Sorry Ron, but nah! as they say. This Stirling is a little Scottish lad who
runs the spares department at a company that I do work for. And it's his
last name, not first. How's life up there at Lune Valley, anyway. I see that
you are currently not carrying out any service work. Nothing serious wrong,
I hope ?

Thanks for your concern, but it`s nothing medical or anything like
that. It`s just not really economically viable any more, and I was
getting brassed off with it - it can be frustrating at times as you know
- so I decided to take a break and concentrate on other things that are
more fun. I still do the more interesting jobs, but it`s more fun using
the equipment than mending it. Strangely, since giving it up, I`ve been
offered far more work than I had been getting for years.

Ron(UK)

On Oct 31, 7:13 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Much snippage...

I would not own Bose even if the alternative was nothing, as nothing
is better than what comes out of their creations.

However, that is my OPINION. It ain't nohow necessarily a fact. I have
heard their wave radios in both their stores (aka "ideal" locations")
and in several household locations, including that of our neighbor
upstate. I found them universally unlistenable. Given the alternatives
available to me, I would not even purchase one even if it came up at
that proverbial yard-sale/flea market.

And at the same time, it give my neighbor upstate considerable
pleasure every day. It fits where she needs it to fit, and she did not
grudge the price even though she is not wealthy by any means.

William has a bug up his fundament about Bose. I agree that their
advertizing displays questionable ethics - but they are no worse than
anyone else pandering to the great unwashed and better than the
average vinyl window salesman... . And unlike the average vinyl
window, their product might last a while relative to similar
alternatives.

No kicking intended, but Bose can be a hot-button issue as well as a
pretty serious boil on the soft underbelly of High Fidelity. In the
immortal works of Abraham Lincoln:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the
time.

16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

Best let it go at that.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
news
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person
whose name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several
times a week.

Not.. _The_ Stirling? ex GP driver and all round good egg?

Ron(UK)

Sorry Ron, but nah! as they say. This Stirling is a little Scottish lad
who runs the spares department at a company that I do work for. And it's
his last name, not first. How's life up there at Lune Valley, anyway. I
see that you are currently not carrying out any service work. Nothing
serious wrong, I hope ?

Thanks for your concern, but it`s nothing medical or anything like that.
It`s just not really economically viable any more, and I was getting
brassed off with it - it can be frustrating at times as you know - so I
decided to take a break and concentrate on other things that are more fun.
I still do the more interesting jobs, but it`s more fun using the
equipment than mending it. Strangely, since giving it up, I`ve been
offered far more work than I had been getting for years.

Ron(UK)

Know what you mean. It gets a little harder and a little less predictable
year on year, I think. A few years back, I lost a large contract from a
friend of mine, due to him closing his service operation down (it was big,
but he was fed up of it) to concentrate on his 'specialist' satellite
equipment supply and installation business. Which is, as it happens, still
going strong, and causing him a lot less hassle than service was. Anyway, at
that time, we were just in the process of selling one of our other
businesses, which my wife ran, so we banked the money from it, went on
holiday, and took a year virtually off. After that time, I had reached the
point where I had a lot of potential work again, so I started back up. That
year of 'rest' did us both a power of good, so if you are able to do the
same, I would recommend it.

It's a bit quiet on service again at the moment, but we have another
business run by the wife, which keeps us going, so I guess we will continue
to get by.

Glad that there's nothing 'serious' wrong, anyway.

Arfa

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 31, 7:13 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Much snippage...

I would not own Bose even if the alternative was nothing, as nothing
is better than what comes out of their creations.

However, that is my OPINION. It ain't nohow necessarily a fact. I have
heard their wave radios in both their stores (aka "ideal" locations")
and in several household locations, including that of our neighbor
upstate. I found them universally unlistenable. Given the alternatives
available to me, I would not even purchase one even if it came up at
that proverbial yard-sale/flea market.

And at the same time, it give my neighbor upstate considerable
pleasure every day. It fits where she needs it to fit, and she did not
grudge the price even though she is not wealthy by any means.

William has a bug up his fundament about Bose. I agree that their
advertizing displays questionable ethics - but they are no worse than
anyone else pandering to the great unwashed and better than the
average vinyl window salesman... . And unlike the average vinyl
window, their product might last a while relative to similar
alternatives.

No kicking intended, but Bose can be a hot-button issue as well as a
pretty serious boil on the soft underbelly of High Fidelity. In the
immortal works of Abraham Lincoln:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the
time.

16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

Best let it go at that.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA


Yes, now that is valid input. You have an opinion and you accept that it is
that. It's not diametrically opposed to mine, but neither is it aligned. I
accept your opinion for being that. You have reasons for that opinion, and
accept that others have theirs, such as your neighbour, who is fine with her
Bose. You think that they sound terrible, your friend thinks hers is great.
I happen to think that they produce very acceptable sound, given what they
are. I never said that they are good value for money, as I don't
particularly think that they are. In the final analysis, it is, as you say,
all just opinion, and I consider it unfair on a company, whether they are
indeed good or bad, to kick them in public, based on nothing more than an
opinion, and then not have the conviction to take it further.

Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 31, 7:13 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Much snippage...

William has a bug up his fundament about Bose. I agree that their
advertizing displays questionable ethics - but they are no worse than
anyone else pandering to the great unwashed and better than the
average vinyl window salesman... . And unlike the average vinyl
window, their product might last a while relative to similar
alternatives.

I have to disagree a bit. Advertising, in general, is not particularly
honest. But Bose steps over the line.


Yes, now that is valid input. You have an opinion and you accept that it
is
that. It's not diametrically opposed to mine, but neither is it aligned. I
accept your opinion for being that. You have reasons for that opinion, and
accept that others have theirs, such as your neighbour, who is fine with
her
Bose. You think that they sound terrible, your friend thinks hers is
great.
I happen to think that they produce very acceptable sound, given what they
are. I never said that they are good value for money, as I don't
particularly think that they are. In the final analysis, it is, as you
say,
all just opinion, and I consider it unfair on a company, whether they are
indeed good or bad, to kick them in public, based on nothing more than an
opinion, and then not have the conviction to take it further.

Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

I mean no offense to Peter, but I find his views no more sensible than mine.

Mr. Daily, it is NOT "all just opinion". This is an "I don't give a damn"
way of looking at life, and I detest it.

There is a significant difference between "rectal orifice" opinion, and
informed opinion. I have some experience in live recording, and have a good
sense of what does and doesn't sound "life-like". My opinion is an informed
one. Peter, I'm sure, has a critical ear and a lot of listening experience,
and though he may coyly dismiss his opinions, I'm sure they are more
"sensible" than those of the average listener.

If a politician says something untrue, you speak up. I see no reason why
that shouldn't apply to businesses.

On Nov 2, 6:58 am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If a politician says something untrue, you speak up. I see no reason why
that shouldn't apply to businesses.

William:

With respect, this is where you go off the rails and wind up a
steaming wreck at the bottom of the ravine.

Politicians make a fine art of avoiding truth. It is their stock-in-
trade, and the better they are at it, the more successful they will be
at politics. Not only is an honest politican an oxymoron, but one who
will neither succeed in politics nor in bringing home the bacon - er,
pork for their constituents.

Boss Tweed of Tammanny Hall defined an honest politician as: one who
once bought, stays bought. I would take a lying weasel (sex) such as
Clinton over a lying weasel (criminal behavior) such as Nixon or a
post turtle such as G.W.Bush (WMD) every time. Clinton got caught. So
what? Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, innumerable others did not. Lying
weasels all of them. That is the political world. The art of making
sausage is one that should not be too closely examined. What is far
more important is to educate that same great unwashed to think for
themselves. Don't tell them what is "right" or "wrong", but give them
the tools to discern the difference. Somewhat like what is expressed
in that old adage: Give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish...

I grew up on Rikki-tikki-tavi: Run and find out. Sure one gets burnt
every so often. But one learns a lot.

Business has a single goal: Make Money. That is required for survival
and survival of businesses of any stripe is what provides jobs and
supports the economy and all that sort of stuff. "Profit" is the
difference between what something is worth (labor, material, service
and so forth) and what is charged or paid for it. If a laborer were
paid what he was worth, the company that paid him would fail in short
order. If goods and services cost only what they were worth, they and
their sources would fail in equally short order. It happens all the
time, every day. Bose is particularly good at surviving in a world
where audio in general and US-based audio in particular is severely
threatened by Pacific Rim amalgamation. Bose supports a pretty large
infrastructure in the US - something not to be sneezed at after all.
That they pander to the ignorant who also happen to have a few more
bucks than they need at the moment is just fine. Fleecing suckers is
an American Tradition that started with Erikson and continues to this
day, and will continue to the end of time.

Last note on this subject: Jimmy Carter was an honest man... and a
near-absolute failure as a President and politican.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

I mean no offense to Peter, but I find his views no more sensible than
mine.

Mr. Daily, it is NOT "all just opinion". This is an "I don't give a damn"
way of looking at life, and I detest it.

There is a significant difference between "rectal orifice" opinion, and
informed opinion. I have some experience in live recording, and have a
good
sense of what does and doesn't sound "life-like". My opinion is an
informed
one. Peter, I'm sure, has a critical ear and a lot of listening
experience,
and though he may coyly dismiss his opinions, I'm sure they are more
"sensible" than those of the average listener.

And I repair the stuff all of the time, so why is my opinion (strange that
you now apparently have one rather than an absolute conviction based on your
perceived absolute truth) any less valid or "informed" than yours - or
indeed, Peter's ? Do you honestly believe, given the exchanges that we have
had, and given the continuous help and advice that I provide to try assist
repair-question posters on here, that I am a "Don't give a damn" person ? In
fact, what do you actually know of my life at all to detest ? I find that
remark deeply offensive.

And Peter's views *are* more sensible (to normal people) than yours, because
they are open, whilst yours are 'reasoned' within a very tight constraint as
to what you consider to be fully factual truth. Peter also recognises what
an "opinion" is, but this seems to be a concept which escapes you.

Anyway, once again, I am allowing myself to be dragged down into another of
your whirpool arguments, which wasn't the intention of re-opening the
thread. Suffice to say that I am unable to accept your views as reasoned and
presented. If you want to do something about Bose being liars and deceivers
of the public, then go ahead and do as I suggested previously. If not, then
your strength of feeling and conviction on the subject has no firm basis,
and as such, anything that you say on the matter, cannot be taken as valid
input.

Arfa

wrote:
Last note on this subject: Jimmy Carter was an honest man... and a
near-absolute failure as a President and politican.

The recent brouhaha about him plagiarizing maps for his book kinda lends
some doubt to any claim to honesty he might have had.

--
One meter, to within 0.0125% accuracy (off by just under .005 inches):
Three feet
Three inches
Three eights of an inch

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

I mean no offense to Peter, but I find his views no more sensible than
mine.

Mr. Daily, it is NOT "all just opinion". This is an "I don't give a damn"
way of looking at life, and I detest it.

There is a significant difference between "rectal orifice" opinion, and
informed opinion. I have some experience in live recording, and have a
good
sense of what does and doesn't sound "life-like". My opinion is an
informed
one. Peter, I'm sure, has a critical ear and a lot of listening
experience,
and though he may coyly dismiss his opinions, I'm sure they are more
"sensible" than those of the average listener.

And I repair the stuff all of the time, so why is my opinion (strange that
you now apparently have one rather than an absolute conviction based on
your perceived absolute truth) any less valid or "informed" than yours -
or indeed, Peter's ? Do you honestly believe, given the exchanges that we
have had, and given the continuous help and advice that I provide to try
assist repair-question posters on here, that I am a "Don't give a damn"
person ? In fact, what do you actually know of my life at all to detest ?
I find that remark deeply offensive.

And Peter's views *are* more sensible (to normal people) than yours,
because they are open, whilst yours are 'reasoned' within a very tight
constraint as to what you consider to be fully factual truth. Peter also
recognises what an "opinion" is, but this seems to be a concept which
escapes you.

Anyway, once again, I am allowing myself to be dragged down into another
of your whirpool arguments, which wasn't the intention of re-opening the
thread. Suffice to say that I am unable to accept your views as reasoned
and presented. If you want to do something about Bose being liars and
deceivers of the public, then go ahead and do as I suggested previously.
If not, then your strength of feeling and conviction on the subject has no
firm basis, and as such, anything that you say on the matter, cannot be
taken as valid input.

Arfa



Bose: Always good for a flame-war, eh?

It's not that the quality is so bad, just overpriced like crazy. And I
wouldn't say they're accurate reproducers of music, just a valid "niche"
product.
I do despise their latest Wave models with the lack of ANY function buttons,
everything on a crappy credit-card remote...

Mark Z.

Bose: Always good for a flame-war, eh?

It's not that the quality is so bad, just overpriced like crazy. And I
wouldn't say they're accurate reproducers of music, just a valid "niche"
product.
I do despise their latest Wave models with the lack of ANY function
buttons, everything on a crappy credit-card remote...

Mark Z.
Hi Mark

I don't disagree with most of what you say. They are not particularly good
value for money, although they are well built, generally pretty reliable,
and well backed up service-wise, which are all things that have to be
factored into the equation, when deciding what exactly represents 'value'.
As far as them being accurate reproducers of music, I think it depends to
some extent as to what genre of music you are trying to reproduce, and what
you are trying to compare them to. I happen to think that they do a pretty
fair job on mainstream 'popular' music, compared to other items of similar
size and functionality, and do a creditable job of holding their own against
bigger systems from other manufacturers, but I consider it silly to start
saying, like some on here do, that they don't compare to multi-thousand
dollar systems with speakers that cost more than a small car, just because
Bose imply in their advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems. I
don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be foolish
enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money to spend,
by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills their needs, or
indeed lifestyle choices. As I said before, I don't happen to think that a
Ferrari is very good at getting you from A to B in safety and comfort, but
there are people who own them as a main car, and are very *happy* with the
fact that they own an overpriced 'name'. It's no different from owning a
Bose.

As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that is more
of a 'lifestyle' thing than anything else. I mean, be honest, when was the
last time that you saw anything more than a master on / off button on a TV
set, or anything other than the most basic controls, if any, on a DVD player
or recorder. Even a lot of AV amplifiers have had little other than a master
volume control on them for some time now. I do take your point though. It
reminds me of that brilliantly funny Emo standup (he was actually sitting
down as I recall) routine where he is showing his new pocket TV to the
audience. He then holds it at arms length, so that he can demonstrate the
remote control that it comes with... Priceless !

Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here, understand
my position on all of this. As you say, mention of Bose is always good for a
'flame-y' thread, but it always seems to be the same couple of people that
make it so, and I was just interested in why it should be. I say again, I
have no particular affiliation to Bose, and neither particularly like nor
dislike their products. They perform better than some, not as well as
others. As a service engineer, I find them among the best for build quality,
servicability, quality of service information, and factory service backup. I
don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the public,
but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch blurb is - how
shall we say - 'rosy' ? The fact that they are protective of their products,
and sell through main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that
they like their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing
comparison. It is just effective sales strategy. In much the same way, you
will have a hard time, for instance, trying to compare a Ferrari to a Lambo
at the same garage.

And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't require
another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it some
more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
mention of Bose is always good for a
'flame-y' thread, but it always seems to be the same couple of people that
make it so,

The same happens on the Pro.Live-sound group where general opinion
amongs't pro's is that Bose gear 'sucks' Every now and then some
newcomer will ask a question about Bose speakers and ignites a flamefest
of epic proportions. Usually it`s because someone spent his hard earned
cash on Bose thinking he bought 'the best' and finds it doesn't do what
he expected it to do.

I don't have an opinion on the Wave radio btw.

Ron(UK)

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

I happen to think that they do a pretty fair job on mainstream 'popular'
music, compared to other items of similar size and functionality, and
do a creditable job of holding their own against bigger systems from
other manufacturers...

That's probably not a tenable view. The single-piece CSW system I mentioned
would probably beat the Wave, but not having heard them together, I'm not
sure. The CSW certainly has the advantage of being larger and having a
separate, separately driven woofer.

As a classical listener, I'm highly critical of sound quality. I assume
serious jazz listeners would be comparably critical.


...but I consider it silly to start saying, like some on here do, that
they don't compare to multi-thousand dollar systems with speakers
that cost more than a small car, just because Bose imply in their
advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems.

Bose doesn't imply -- they say it outright. Which is one of my gripes.


I don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be
foolish enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

This is also one of the points of contention. Granted, Bose products are
squarely aimed at people who _don't_ want to get involved in choosing and
setting up a component system. There's nothing wrong with this. But Bose's
advertising and dealer policies are aimed at making sure that such a
comparison never occurs.

It's worth noting that Bang & Olufsen makes products aimed at much the same
market as Bose. I haven't recently looked at their prices to see how they
compare with separate components. But I've never heard anyone accuse B&O
products of being overpriced mediocrities. (Pricey, perhaps...)

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=34

Might I ask a blunt question? If you ran a retail store, would you sell
indifferent, overpriced products just because they had a good profit margin
and customers were presold on them? I wouldn't, and I don't think you would,
either.


As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money
to spend, by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills
their needs, or indeed lifestyle choices.

One of the issues here is whether one should attempt to force a company to
stop lying about a product to customers who don't really _care_ they're
being lied to.

As to whether the purchase of a Bose product is a free choice... If people
were less gullible, there would be less dishonest advertising.

I will call Cambridge SoundWorks Monday and complain about their stooping to
Bose's level. (It's wrong to gripe about one firm while ignoring the
qualitatively identical behavior of another.) Indeed, if CSW were _honest_
about the quality of their product, they could turn it to their marketing
advantage, by implicitly calling Bose a liar.


As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that
is more of a 'lifestyle" thing than anything else.

It's nice for people who are afraid of knobs and switches. But much
electronic equipment -- including high-end audiophile stuff -- has few
front-panel controls. There are too many features and options for dedicated
controls -- not to mention the high cost of implementing them.


Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here,
understand my position on all of this.

I understand your position very well! I just vehemently disagree with it.


I don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the
public, but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch blurb
is -- how shall we say -- "rosy"?

It all depends on how you define lying. Strictly speaking, a lie is a
conscious untruth. But (to me), ignorance of whether what you say is correct
is no excuse.

The lies started with the 2201. Dr. Bose was not a particularly perceptive
listener. He did not do his homework and came to the wrong conclusions.


The fact that they are protective of their products, and sell through
main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that they like
their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing
comparison. It is just effective sales strategy.

This is a complex issue that can't easily be covered in a few paragraphs,
but I'll try.

Businesses have to make money to stay in business. Not surprisingly, they
want to make the most money with the least effort. If a manufacturer offers
you a profitable product that's more or less pre-sold to the customer, that
few other stores carry so you won't be under much pressure to discount it,
you're likely to want to carry it.

But you have to dance with the Devil. In exchange for all these advantages,
you're often forced to "push" the product on an unwilling customer, or demo
it in ways that don't allow the customer to make a fair comparison.

I once worked for a store that sold Audio Research and Magnepan. In exchange
for an exclusive franchise in the Philadelphia area, we were pretty much
obliged to shove these products down the customers' throats. I had no
problem "encouraging" the purchase of ARC products, as they were very good,
but I did not like Magneplanars (nor the Protestant fundamentalists who
manufactured them). I wanted to help customers find what they liked, not
talk them into buying something they weren't altogether enthusiastic about.

A sale is a social transaction. One of the reasons a customer chooses to buy
an expensive audio system is that they trust the salesperson. I would prefer
to tell the customer how I honestly feel about a product * than tell them
what I need to make my commission.

When I joined Tau Beta Pi, the American engineering fraternity, I promised
that "my word would be the same to buyer and seller". I see nothing wrong
with that.

* Several customers complimented me to my boss about my honesty.


In much the same way, you will have a hard time, for instance, trying to
compare a Ferrari to a Lambo at the same garage.

But one doesn't judge autos in the same way one judges sound reproduction.


And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't require
another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it some
more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

It's not your facts as much as it is your attitude.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

I happen to think that they do a pretty fair job on mainstream 'popular'
music, compared to other items of similar size and functionality, and
do a creditable job of holding their own against bigger systems from
other manufacturers...

That's probably not a tenable view. The single-piece CSW system I
mentioned
would probably beat the Wave, but not having heard them together, I'm not
sure. The CSW certainly has the advantage of being larger and having a
separate, separately driven woofer.

As a classical listener, I'm highly critical of sound quality. I assume
serious jazz listeners would be comparably critical.


...but I consider it silly to start saying, like some on here do, that
they don't compare to multi-thousand dollar systems with speakers
that cost more than a small car, just because Bose imply in their
advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems.

Bose doesn't imply -- they say it outright. Which is one of my gripes.


I don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be
foolish enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

This is also one of the points of contention. Granted, Bose products are
squarely aimed at people who _don't_ want to get involved in choosing and
setting up a component system. There's nothing wrong with this. But Bose's
advertising and dealer policies are aimed at making sure that such a
comparison never occurs.

It's worth noting that Bang & Olufsen makes products aimed at much the
same
market as Bose. I haven't recently looked at their prices to see how they
compare with separate components. But I've never heard anyone accuse B&O
products of being overpriced mediocrities. (Pricey, perhaps...)

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=34

Might I ask a blunt question? If you ran a retail store, would you sell
indifferent, overpriced products just because they had a good profit
margin
and customers were presold on them? I wouldn't, and I don't think you
would,
either.


As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money
to spend, by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills
their needs, or indeed lifestyle choices.

One of the issues here is whether one should attempt to force a company to
stop lying about a product to customers who don't really _care_ they're
being lied to.

As to whether the purchase of a Bose product is a free choice... If people
were less gullible, there would be less dishonest advertising.

I will call Cambridge SoundWorks Monday and complain about their stooping
to
Bose's level. (It's wrong to gripe about one firm while ignoring the
qualitatively identical behavior of another.) Indeed, if CSW were _honest_
about the quality of their product, they could turn it to their marketing
advantage, by implicitly calling Bose a liar.


As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that
is more of a 'lifestyle" thing than anything else.

It's nice for people who are afraid of knobs and switches. But much
electronic equipment -- including high-end audiophile stuff -- has few
front-panel controls. There are too many features and options for
dedicated
controls -- not to mention the high cost of implementing them.


Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here,
understand my position on all of this.

I understand your position very well! I just vehemently disagree with it.


I don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the
public, but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch blurb
is -- how shall we say -- "rosy"?

It all depends on how you define lying. Strictly speaking, a lie is a
conscious untruth. But (to me), ignorance of whether what you say is
correct
is no excuse.

The lies started with the 2201. Dr. Bose was not a particularly perceptive
listener. He did not do his homework and came to the wrong conclusions.


The fact that they are protective of their products, and sell through
main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that they like
their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing
comparison. It is just effective sales strategy.

This is a complex issue that can't easily be covered in a few paragraphs,
but I'll try.

Businesses have to make money to stay in business. Not surprisingly, they
want to make the most money with the least effort. If a manufacturer
offers
you a profitable product that's more or less pre-sold to the customer,
that
few other stores carry so you won't be under much pressure to discount it,
you're likely to want to carry it.

But you have to dance with the Devil. In exchange for all these
advantages,
you're often forced to "push" the product on an unwilling customer, or
demo
it in ways that don't allow the customer to make a fair comparison.

I once worked for a store that sold Audio Research and Magnepan. In
exchange
for an exclusive franchise in the Philadelphia area, we were pretty much
obliged to shove these products down the customers' throats. I had no
problem "encouraging" the purchase of ARC products, as they were very
good,
but I did not like Magneplanars (nor the Protestant fundamentalists who
manufactured them). I wanted to help customers find what they liked, not
talk them into buying something they weren't altogether enthusiastic
about.

A sale is a social transaction. One of the reasons a customer chooses to
buy
an expensive audio system is that they trust the salesperson. I would
prefer
to tell the customer how I honestly feel about a product * than tell them
what I need to make my commission.

When I joined Tau Beta Pi, the American engineering fraternity, I promised
that "my word would be the same to buyer and seller". I see nothing wrong
with that.

* Several customers complimented me to my boss about my honesty.


In much the same way, you will have a hard time, for instance, trying to
compare a Ferrari to a Lambo at the same garage.

But one doesn't judge autos in the same way one judges sound reproduction.


And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't
require
another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it some
more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

It's not your facts as much as it is your attitude.



Oh puleeeese ....

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

I happen to think that they do a pretty fair job on mainstream 'popular'
music, compared to other items of similar size and functionality, and
do a creditable job of holding their own against bigger systems from
other manufacturers...

That's probably not a tenable view. The single-piece CSW system I
mentioned
would probably beat the Wave, but not having heard them together, I'm not
sure. The CSW certainly has the advantage of being larger and having a
separate, separately driven woofer.

As a classical listener, I'm highly critical of sound quality. I assume
serious jazz listeners would be comparably critical.


...but I consider it silly to start saying, like some on here do, that
they don't compare to multi-thousand dollar systems with speakers
that cost more than a small car, just because Bose imply in their
advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems.

Bose doesn't imply -- they say it outright. Which is one of my gripes.


I don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be
foolish enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

This is also one of the points of contention. Granted, Bose products are
squarely aimed at people who _don't_ want to get involved in choosing and
setting up a component system. There's nothing wrong with this. But
Bose's
advertising and dealer policies are aimed at making sure that such a
comparison never occurs.

It's worth noting that Bang & Olufsen makes products aimed at much the
same
market as Bose. I haven't recently looked at their prices to see how they
compare with separate components. But I've never heard anyone accuse B&O
products of being overpriced mediocrities. (Pricey, perhaps...)

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=34

Might I ask a blunt question? If you ran a retail store, would you sell
indifferent, overpriced products just because they had a good profit
margin
and customers were presold on them? I wouldn't, and I don't think you
would,
either.


As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money
to spend, by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills
their needs, or indeed lifestyle choices.

One of the issues here is whether one should attempt to force a company
to
stop lying about a product to customers who don't really _care_ they're
being lied to.

As to whether the purchase of a Bose product is a free choice... If
people
were less gullible, there would be less dishonest advertising.

I will call Cambridge SoundWorks Monday and complain about their stooping
to
Bose's level. (It's wrong to gripe about one firm while ignoring the
qualitatively identical behavior of another.) Indeed, if CSW were
_honest_
about the quality of their product, they could turn it to their marketing
advantage, by implicitly calling Bose a liar.


As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that
is more of a 'lifestyle" thing than anything else.

It's nice for people who are afraid of knobs and switches. But much
electronic equipment -- including high-end audiophile stuff -- has few
front-panel controls. There are too many features and options for
dedicated
controls -- not to mention the high cost of implementing them.


Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here,
understand my position on all of this.

I understand your position very well! I just vehemently disagree with it.


I don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the
public, but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch
blurb
is -- how shall we say -- "rosy"?

It all depends on how you define lying. Strictly speaking, a lie is a
conscious untruth. But (to me), ignorance of whether what you say is
correct
is no excuse.

The lies started with the 2201. Dr. Bose was not a particularly
perceptive
listener. He did not do his homework and came to the wrong conclusions.


The fact that they are protective of their products, and sell through
main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that they like
their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing
comparison. It is just effective sales strategy.

This is a complex issue that can't easily be covered in a few paragraphs,
but I'll try.

Businesses have to make money to stay in business. Not surprisingly, they
want to make the most money with the least effort. If a manufacturer
offers
you a profitable product that's more or less pre-sold to the customer,
that
few other stores carry so you won't be under much pressure to discount
it,
you're likely to want to carry it.

But you have to dance with the Devil. In exchange for all these
advantages,
you're often forced to "push" the product on an unwilling customer, or
demo
it in ways that don't allow the customer to make a fair comparison.

I once worked for a store that sold Audio Research and Magnepan. In
exchange
for an exclusive franchise in the Philadelphia area, we were pretty much
obliged to shove these products down the customers' throats. I had no
problem "encouraging" the purchase of ARC products, as they were very
good,
but I did not like Magneplanars (nor the Protestant fundamentalists who
manufactured them). I wanted to help customers find what they liked, not
talk them into buying something they weren't altogether enthusiastic
about.

A sale is a social transaction. One of the reasons a customer chooses to
buy
an expensive audio system is that they trust the salesperson. I would
prefer
to tell the customer how I honestly feel about a product * than tell them
what I need to make my commission.

When I joined Tau Beta Pi, the American engineering fraternity, I
promised
that "my word would be the same to buyer and seller". I see nothing wrong
with that.

* Several customers complimented me to my boss about my honesty.


In much the same way, you will have a hard time, for instance, trying to
compare a Ferrari to a Lambo at the same garage.

But one doesn't judge autos in the same way one judges sound
reproduction.


And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't
require
another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it
some
more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

It's not your facts as much as it is your attitude.



Oh puleeeese ....

Arfa
You know what ? You wanna question my attitude. Well here's some for you to
get your teeth into. For the most part, I'm a pretty easy going guy - up to
a point. I will have a discussion with sensible real world people, who hold
sensible real world opinions, for as long as they want to keep talking.
That's sensible people, not you. I have come across your type, who are
endlessly reasonable, and never get mad, and put across that same bland
superiority thing, many times in my long and varied career, and the end
result is always the same. Well let me tell you where I'm at with you now.
The 'point' has been reached. If you were actually here in front of me now,
I would be making an arse of myself by jumping up and down, red in the face,
screaming SHUT UP - SHUT UP - SHUT THE F*** UP !!!!!!!!!! at you, and you,
I'm sure, would be standing there with that po-faced "poor old thing"
indulgent half-smile on your face, thinking how bloody superior you are.

If that makes you superior, which I'm sure you'll rush now to deny, then
sobeit. I'm just a poor old norm, and you're a god.

So read this, and understand it well. I have no further interest in you, or
anything you have to say, most of which I consider to be senseless
self-absorbed crap anyway. If you are prepared to phone Cambridge SW to tell
them not to stoop to Bose's level, have the ******** to phone Bose, and tell
them to stop lying. No ? I didn't think so. Empty vessels make the most
noise, as they say.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


Mr. Daily, I had had my final say and had stopped arguing this issue until
you brought it up again a few days ago.

I learned -- not that many years ago -- on UseNet -- that there's no point
in screaming or yelling at people. And believe me, I did a lot in my day. It
finally got through my thick skull that, regardless of whether I was right
or wrong, most other people aren't interested in the truth -- that is, they
lack the ability to step back and self-criticize.

I know exactly the kind of "passive-agressive" person you're talking about.
I'm not that sort of person.

You need to start thinking about why you get so twisted out of line when
people don't agree with you -- and worse, why you consider your points of
view necessarily correct, and those of people who disagree necessarily
wrong.

By the way, I _will_ call Bose. I'll report back on what I find. (Note that
it's highly unlikely I'll be able to get to anyone high-up in marketing at
Bose. The odds are better at CSW.)

In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


Mr. Daily, I had had my final say and had stopped arguing this issue until
you brought it up again a few days ago.

I learned -- not that many years ago -- on UseNet -- that there's no point
in screaming or yelling at people. And believe me, I did a lot in my day. It
finally got through my thick skull that, regardless of whether I was right
or wrong, most other people aren't interested in the truth -- that is, they
lack the ability to step back and self-criticize.

I know exactly the kind of "passive-agressive" person you're talking about.
I'm not that sort of person.

You need to start thinking about why you get so twisted out of line when
people don't agree with you -- and worse, why you consider your points of
view necessarily correct, and those of people who disagree necessarily
wrong.

By the way, I _will_ call Bose. I'll report back on what I find. (Note that
it's highly unlikely I'll be able to get to anyone high-up in marketing at
Bose. The odds are better at CSW.)

William, protest all you want, spout about your maturity and wisdom and
self-knowledge all you want, you are still an arrogant, sanctimonious
hypocrite. I've seen your ramblings elsewhere, and your superiority
complex is astounding.

You offered to "name drop" about the myriad folks who adore you. In
s.e.r., we don't care whether you've tapped toes with Larry Craig
himself. You are judged only on your behavior in this room, and while
Arfa is about as gentlemanly as a man could be, you are nothing short of
an ass. Now STFU.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

You offered to "name drop" about the myriad folks who adore you.
In s.e.r., we don't care whether you've tapped toes with Larry Craig
himself. You are judged only on your behavior in this room, and
while Arfa is about as gentlemanly as a man could be, you are
nothing short of an ass. Now STFU.

Arfa is hardly a gentleman. He has no understanding of how to intelligently
argue, and he seems to be devoid of any self-critical sense. All he can is
spout and spume when people disagree with him. That's hardly courteous or
smart.

I used to think I was smarter than anybody else, and gradually learned I
sure as hell _wasn't_. Then I started meeting people in UseNet, and
discovered something. I'm not smart at all -- but most people are
insufferably stupid.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

You offered to "name drop" about the myriad folks who adore you.
In s.e.r., we don't care whether you've tapped toes with Larry Craig
himself. You are judged only on your behavior in this room, and
while Arfa is about as gentlemanly as a man could be, you are
nothing short of an ass. Now STFU.

Arfa is hardly a gentleman. He has no understanding of how to
intelligently
argue, and he seems to be devoid of any self-critical sense. All he can is
spout and spume when people disagree with him. That's hardly courteous or
smart.

Now, you have really crossed the line. So hear this. F**k right off back
under whatever stone you call home. You are, as Smitty rightly says, a
sanctimonious ****. I really hope you do try it on with Bose, and I REALLY
hope that they take the exception to you that you rightly deserve, and that
they set their corporate legal department on you, and wipe you out out of
existence.

Your head is so far up your own arse, that you must be looking out of your
mouth. When you discovered that you weren't smarter than everybody else, it
must have been one of those real 'revelation moments'. What a pity it didn't
last. However, when you realised that most people were insufferably stupid,
I hope you included yourself as top of the tree, as you are the positive
epitomy of both words.

The only person I have a problem with disagreeing with me is YOU. Can you
not see that you are the very worst there is at this ? Because you have
worked out all your stupidly conceived 'proofs', you utterly reject anyone
elses opinion - oops, silly me, I've used that 'invalid' word again.

When I reopened the thread, it was not aimed at you. I had hoped that you
had cleared off to harass some other group, but no, there you were again,
sticking your oar in. You had already put your views over and over again,
with your endless neatly numerated lists, and I really didn't want to hear
any more from you, as I suspect most people on here that are interested in a
sensible converstaion, didn't. But you just couldn't resist could you ?
Straight back in there with another of your inflamatory comments.

I really, REALLY pity your friends and relations and co-workers. You must be
the most royal pain in the arse to live and work with, that there could
possibly be.

And no, I'm neither drunk, nor under the influence of drugs. I'm just
TOTALLY ****ED with you.

Arfa

Why should I STFU (which I had, until you reposted), when I'm probably
right?

About two years ago, someone in rec.audio.pro asked where in the A to D
conversion process the signal actually went from analog to digital.

I responded that it occurred at the point at which the samples were
quantized.

I was immediately barraged with invective. I was an idiot, I didn't know
what I was talking about, the data had to actually be converted to binary
numbers, etc, etc, etc.

I pointed out that numbers weren't necessary. Once the data had been
quantized -- that is, reduced to a finite, enumerable set of data (rather
than an infinite, continuously varying set) -- it was digital. "Numbers"
weren't necessary.

The screaming was repeated. Not one person (that I recall) agreed.

Yet what I said was correct. Anyone with a basic understanding of how
information is represented would immediately see that "digital =
quantization", not "digital = numbers". Once data are quantized, their
continuous representation is lost.

It's not whether data _are_ represented as numbers, but whether they _can
be_ represented as numbers that determines whether data are digital. One can
have digital PAM and PWM data systems in which there are no "numbers" -- the
pulse amplitude or pulse width is quantized.

If educated technical people cannot grasp such a simple concept, am I
entitled to call them "insufferably stupid"? You decide.

I felt rather like God telling Abraham he would spare Sodom if 10 righteous
people "be found there". If one person had responded "Oh, yes. I see what
you're getting at. That makes perfect sense.", I wouldn't have been too
upset. But not one person "got it".

Mr. Daily, if you wish to continue reacting violently when people express
points of view different from yours, insisting that disagreements are due to
the other fellow's foolishness, bad values, or inability to reason, be my
guest. Is that how you discuss serious matters with other people?


As far as the never-ending Bose arguments go... Yes, businesses often
misrepresent their products, and sometimes lie outright. That doesn't make
it right, nor does it mean we should keep our mouths shut.

Nor does it mean that we can't say to someone "Did you know that, for what
you spent for that Bose Wave radio, you could have had much better sound?"
There are polite ways to criticize people, another thing it took me a long
time to learn. (The trick is to ask questions, rather than confronting
people directly.)