For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
to two years ago.

Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
Industrial Co. Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff,
and retooled. Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months
after being sold and moved. This might explain why parts were hard to
come by last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an
average of one new Unisaw per state per month.

Delta is not a giant any more.
The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
NC is only 56,000 sq feet. The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. The
fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.


The good news is that the Unisaw is being built in the US and those
machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
new facility.


http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...in_824 4.aspx

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...ls_9 008.aspx

On Mar 21, 7:04*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
to two years ago.

Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
Industrial Co. *Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff,
and retooled. *Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months
after being sold and moved. *This might explain why parts were hard to
come by last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an
average of one new Unisaw per state per month.

Delta is not a giant any more.
The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
NC is only 56,000 sq feet. *The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. *The
fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.

The good news is that the Unisaw is *being built in the US and those
machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
new facility.

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...to_Become_Inde...

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...lta_Celebrates...

The low production rate might be why the new Unisaw is so hard to lay
eyes on. The pictures, brochures and reviews look pretty good but
actually touching on down here in southern Kansas is kinda hard.

I hope they have done more than just "reinvent" the saw. The overall
appearance, feel and quality of the Unisaw drooped significantly
during the past 20-30 years. I used one in high school shop. Years
later (mid to late 70's) I used them in a college level cabinet making
class. When I started shopping for a cabinet saw 10-12 years ago I
gravitated toward the new Unisaws and was disappointed. Table finish
was not as good, crank lock knobs were plastic, etc. Ended up with a
Grizzly 1023 with reminded me of the old Unisaw. I hope Delta has
taken the new machine back to old standards.

RonB

On 3/21/2012 8:22 AM, RonB wrote:
On Mar 21, 7:04 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
to two years ago.

Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
Industrial Co. Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff,
and retooled. Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months
after being sold and moved. This might explain why parts were hard to
come by last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an
average of one new Unisaw per state per month.

Delta is not a giant any more.
The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
NC is only 56,000 sq feet. The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. The
fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.

The good news is that the Unisaw is being built in the US and those
machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
new facility.

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...to_Become_Inde...

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...lta_Celebrates...

The low production rate might be why the new Unisaw is so hard to lay
eyes on. The pictures, brochures and reviews look pretty good but
actually touching on down here in southern Kansas is kinda hard.

I hope they have done more than just "reinvent" the saw. The overall
appearance, feel and quality of the Unisaw drooped significantly
during the past 20-30 years. I used one in high school shop. Years
later (mid to late 70's) I used them in a college level cabinet making
class. When I started shopping for a cabinet saw 10-12 years ago I
gravitated toward the new Unisaws and was disappointed. Table finish
was not as good, crank lock knobs were plastic, etc. Ended up with a
Grizzly 1023 with reminded me of the old Unisaw. I hope Delta has
taken the new machine back to old standards.

RonB

From what I understand, Black and Decker, the precious owner was
instrumental in the concept of the New Unisaw design, which is more than
a few years old now. I have seen several of the New Unisaw before Delta
was sold and down sized and it was different but nothing compelled me to
even put it in the consideration category should I buy another. The
local Woodcraft guys point away from the New unit and towards a other
brands considering the much higher cost.

I fear that Delta may one day become what Rockwell has become, a reused
well known brand name.

Please tell me the Timber Wolf band saw blades is not being produced by
them, just distributed.

I really like the Timber Wolf blades. The Olsons' just never lived up
to the quality that the Timber Wolfs had.

Glad to see they are making UNISAWS in the US.. Too bad it had to be a
foreign company.

On 3/21/2012 8:04 AM, Leon wrote:
For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
to two years ago.

Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
Industrial Co. Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff, and
retooled. Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months after
being sold and moved. This might explain why parts were hard to come by
last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an average of one
new Unisaw per state per month.

Delta is not a giant any more.
The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
NC is only 56,000 sq feet. The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. The
fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.


The good news is that the Unisaw is being built in the US and those
machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
new facility.


http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...in_824 4.aspx


http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ez...ls_9 008.aspx

On 3/21/2012 7:44 AM, Leon wrote:

I fear that Delta may one day become what Rockwell has become, a reused
well known brand name.

One day? That **** hit the fan about five years ago.

It's the same old story that has been ongoing with the major oil
companies since the late 80's ... instead of using experienced
scientists, the MBA's hire young know nothings because they can pay them
less in all aspects, and just rely on acquisition to replace reserves.

These tool MBA's are betting they can acquire a respected brand name to
fool the stupid consumer.

That is what they think of you ...

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.

****'em.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Swingman" wrote

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.

At least he offers a quality product.

There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You did
not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a quality
product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA school.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
b.com...



"Swingman" wrote

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.

At least he offers a quality product.

There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You did
not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a
quality product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA
school.

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

Max

"Max" wrote in message
b.com...

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

Probably the Powermatic... That said, I find that my Jet XActa cabinet saw
is perfectly fine. Note, though, that I added a Biesemeyer T-Splitter to the
saw... The newer version with a riving knife is a better rig.

John

On 3/21/2012 10:50 AM, Max wrote:


"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
b.com...



"Swingman" wrote

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before
I'd ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA,
or not.

At least he offers a quality product.

There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You
did not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated
a quality product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in
MBA school.

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

Max



None that you see at Rockler, Woodcraft, and or you favorite local.
IMHO you need to look at Minimax and Laguna to understand a more
nonsense approach to a machine that will again likely out last you.
There are a few less known brands. Even Laguna is starting to import
from other than Europe so if their saw is looking inexpensive look a bit
farther up their line of machines. IIRC their Platinum series is
probably from Taiwan and probably a great saw but not a "gold standard"
caliber.

I would start here,
http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws...aw-w-o-Scoring

On 3/21/2012 10:59 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Max" wrote in message
b.com...

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists,
what might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

Probably the Powermatic... That said, I find that my Jet XActa cabinet
saw is perfectly fine. Note, though, that I added a Biesemeyer
T-Splitter to the saw... The newer version with a riving knife is a
better rig.

John




I am not so sure Powermatic sets any standards since the 2000 was
introduced, IIRC it is made in Taiwan. I would go for their older out
of production Model 66. While Amazon still shows the 66 still available
Powermatic no longer shows it on their site.

I have the Jet Exacta JTAS cabinet saw also and am perfectly happy with it.

On 3/21/2012 9:05 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Please tell me the Timber Wolf band saw blades is not being produced by
them, just distributed.
More than Likely only distributed. For several years now Delta has
been selling other brands, Beisemeyer, Osbourne...

Lee Michaels wrote:


"Swingman" wrote

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before
I'd ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA,
or not.

At least he offers a quality product.

There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You
did not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a
quality product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA
school.


I was recently taken on a guided-tour of a parts-producing metal-working
(machining) factory. I was struck by the low ratio of people per square
foot. In many cases, the work being machined was hidden, at least
visually, from the machine operator (singular) during the process.
Almost everything, excepting some quality control, was automated (by
CNC). I guess this reflects our changing times. Engineering has largely
made many craftsmen obsolete (?), at least from
the viewpoint of today's modern industry.

Bill

On 3/21/2012 9:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/21/2012 7:44 AM, Leon wrote:

I fear that Delta may one day become what Rockwell has become, a reused
well known brand name.

One day? That **** hit the fan about five years ago.

I was thinking that perhaps one day Delta will not even build their
equipment rather have everything built.
But I totally agree.


It's the same old story that has been ongoing with the major oil
companies since the late 80's ... instead of using experienced
scientists, the MBA's hire young know nothings because they can pay them
less in all aspects, and just rely on acquisition to replace reserves.

These tool MBA's are betting they can acquire a respected brand name to
fool the stupid consumer.

That is what they think of you ...

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.

****'em.

I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
nice. the wheels were good.

My feeling is Saw Stop is now the number one quality saw. Whether you
like the (technology or the man) or not, the saw itself is quality.

On 3/21/2012 12:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/21/2012 10:59 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Max" wrote in message
b.com...

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists,
what might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

Probably the Powermatic... That said, I find that my Jet XActa cabinet
saw is perfectly fine. Note, though, that I added a Biesemeyer
T-Splitter to the saw... The newer version with a riving knife is a
better rig.

John




I am not so sure Powermatic sets any standards since the 2000 was
introduced, IIRC it is made in Taiwan. I would go for their older out of
production Model 66. While Amazon still shows the 66 still available
Powermatic no longer shows it on their site.

I have the Jet Exacta JTAS cabinet saw also and am perfectly happy with it.

"Gold Standard" is a relative term.

The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.

I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
easily be restored to a "new" status.

Either saw would last anybody on this list a life time.

There are still saws made he

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm

or "not" made in the USA

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/table-saws.html

There are "many" commercial table saws, most of which are
not in the hobby arena.

I currently own: 1966 Delta 12/14" tilting arbor table saw
1973 Delta Unisaw
1969 Delta 14" bandsaw
1980 Delta 17" drill press



So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

On Mar 21, 11:50*am, "Max" wrote:
"Lee Michaels" *wrote in message

b.com...

"Swingman" wrote

As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.

At least he offers a quality product.
There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. *You did
not make junk. *I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a
quality product. *Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA
school.

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

Max

That's easy. General 650R. Or 350R if you want right-tilt. I would
take the General over the Powermatic if it was available.
I have been around a lot of table saws in my career and at a certain
point, you run out of things to do better than the other guy. It then
comes down to size, HP, blade diameter. Aside from the safety aspect,
how much better is the Saw Stop as a saw? Personally, I want to be
able to use the myriad of magnet hold-downs I have instinctively grown
accustomed to using over the decades. From there, I want a sliding
table. SawStop doesn't make a sliding table saw, as far as I know
(haven't looked lately) so in a professional cabinet-building setting,
SawStop wouldn't even be a contender. Altendorf, SCM etc, would be.
A UniSaw/General650R would definitely be a contender, assuming a
proper price point vs features. BUT!!!! That SawStop sure is pretty.
BTW, the General comes with a proper Bies-style fence, although I
always enjoyed using the UniFence.
BUT!!! (Version 2.0) If I HAD to do it all over again, I would shop
for a 4x8 Altendorf or SCM slider, used. I have seen those around
$2-4K because I would not care how old it was as long as it had a
minimum of 3 HP and a scoring blade.

YOUR mileage may vary.

On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
nice. the wheels were good.


Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. It is cool gee
whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
less friction.

For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by
any polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet
cabinet saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would
slide off the top, not even close on the Jet.

Minimax uses a coarse finish on their saw top for the same reason and I
confirmed that several years ago when visiting their show room in Austin.

Click on one of the pictures and you can see the grind

http://minimax-usa.com/index.php?pag...mart&Itemid=35

On 3/21/2012 10:50 AM, Max wrote:
So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what might
be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

In the absence of the ubiquitous old Unisaw and PM66 that put both Delta and
Powermatic on the map, the field is certainly narrowed. I personally wouldn't
consider buying either of the products they developed as replacements. This
would seem to leave only the Jet Xacta saw as the sole product that looks
anything like the "legacy" tablesaws that we once considered "gold standards".
However, people always seem to forget about General:

http://www.general.ca/site_general/g...350R_650R.html

I just wonder how long General can continue offering their top of the line
"Made in Canada" machines before they succumb to the same pressures as Delta
and Powermatic.

If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-H...ng-Knife/G0651
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3...ng-Knife/G0691

If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
would be a requirement at the very top of my list.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
nice. the wheels were good.


Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. It is cool gee
whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
less friction.

For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by any
polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet cabinet
saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would slide
off the top, not even close on the Jet.

My Jet seems better as it gets older... all the little surface scratches
that have accumulated, along with a well established coat of wax lets sheet
goods glide over it. I don't really notice any difference with "boards" as
the surface area isn't all that big.

I have the same issue with my DJ-20 Jointer... It's very smooth and has a
lot of friction when I face joint. If I don't keep it well waxed it's a
chore to feed boards through it... When I first had issues I thought it was
just dull but after a good waxing performance was restored.

A problem with the question that starts this thread is it doesn't say for
what purpose. If I were running sheet goods all day my answer would be much
different from my initial answer...

John

On Mar 21, 3:15*pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message

...

On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
nice. the wheels were good.

Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. *It is cool gee
whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
less friction.

For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by any
polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet cabinet
saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would slide
off the top, not even close on the Jet.

My Jet seems better as it gets older... all the little surface scratches
that have accumulated, along with a well established coat of wax lets sheet
goods glide over it. *I don't really notice any difference with "boards" as
the surface area isn't all that big.

I have the same issue with my DJ-20 Jointer... It's very smooth and has a
lot of friction when I face joint. If I don't keep it well waxed it's a
chore to feed boards through it... When I first had issues I thought it was
just dull but after a good waxing performance was restored.

A problem with the question that starts this thread is it doesn't say for
what purpose. If I were running sheet goods all day my answer would be much
different from my initial answer...

John

Absolutely. Case goods require totally different equipment than, say,
oak park benches.

Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
and the F-45 http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html

The F-45 is a real piece of art.

I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
price in her ear just to see the look on her face.

To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
one finger.

If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.

[...snip...]
If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-H...ng-Knife/G0651
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3...ng-Knife/G0691

If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
would be a requirement at the very top of my list.

I don't own either, but there's been a lot of chatter on Lumberjocks
and other forums about these and other saws, so do a google search.
Generally the chatter has been very favorable for the Grizzly saws,
but the same can be said for most any real cabinet saw.

I don't get exactly why the G0651 is $2125 and the G0691 is $1425. The
shipping weight on the G091 is more than the G0651, so I doubt the
price difference is heavier trunnions or anything like that.

The riving knife on the G0651 has a quick release feature, the G0691
requires more fiddling to get it on/off.

Not until the past few years have I paid much attention to everyone's
threads/discussions about the quality of the different cabinet saws,
as compared to past models and/or brands. I'm not in the market for
another one, but have wondered if my Unisaws are of the original
higher quality, as compared to subsequent "retooled" models.

I have a model 34-807 (made in 1992) and a model 34-761 (made in
1981). I would like to think they were made during the time the
quality was at their maximum. I don't recall ever looking to see if
there's a Made in USA tag on them. These have served me well and I
suspect they will last until I can no longer do woodwork.... 20 more
years of hobby work?

Sonny

On Mar 21, 3:42*pm, Pat Barber wrote:
Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
and the F-45 *http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html

The F-45 is a real piece of art.

I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
price in her ear just to see the look on her face.

To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
one finger.

If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.

I'm familiar. A friend of mine and I took a drive to Toronto last year
to attend Woodworking Machinery Expo, just to see the Altendorf and
General (CNC) people. I thought 35 grand was a good price for that saw
(fully loaded). Altendorf is just getting better and better.

On 3/21/2012 1:33 PM, Robatoy wrote:

That's easy. General 650R. Or 350R if you want right-tilt. I would
take the General over the Powermatic if it was available.

YOUR mileage may vary.

Mine mileage would not ... agree 110% about the General 650.

That would be my choice of table saw were I in the market today, hands down.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Mar 21, 3:42*pm, Pat Barber wrote:
Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
and the F-45 *http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html

The F-45 is a real piece of art.

I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
price in her ear just to see the look on her face.

To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
one finger.

If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.

I'm familiar. A friend of mine and I took a drive to Toronto last year
to attend Woodworking Machinery Expo, just to see the Altendorf and
General (CNC) people. I thought 35 grand was a good price for that saw
(fully loaded). Altendorf is just getting better and better.

Are they fully CNC yet? Just drop a sheet of ply on there and get all
your cuts from the press of a single button? (After a bit of
programming.

--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix

On Mar 21, 6:50*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy









wrote:
On Mar 21, 3:42*pm, Pat Barber wrote:
Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
and the F-45 *http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html

The F-45 is a real piece of art.

I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
price in her ear just to see the look on her face.

To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
one finger.

If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.

I'm familiar. A friend of mine and I took a drive to Toronto last year
to attend Woodworking Machinery Expo, just to see the Altendorf and
General (CNC) people. I thought 35 grand was a good price for that saw
(fully loaded). Altendorf is just getting better and better.

Are they fully CNC yet? *Just drop a sheet of ply on there and get all
your cuts from the press of a single button? (After a bit of
programming.

--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
* * * * * * * * * * *-- Jimi Hendrix

They can be had with motorized fences. Very accurate.

No argument there. It's why the old bailey corrugated planes are so
beloved. No hydraulic lock. I wax my top often.
Same with the jointer.

It was a cool gee whiz thing..

On 3/21/2012 2:43 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
nice. the wheels were good.


Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. It is cool gee
whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
less friction.

For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by
any polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet
cabinet saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would
slide off the top, not even close on the Jet.

Minimax uses a coarse finish on their saw top for the same reason and I
confirmed that several years ago when visiting their show room in Austin.

Click on one of the pictures and you can see the grind

http://minimax-usa.com/index.php?pag...mart&Itemid=35

Pat Barber wrote:
"Gold Standard" is a relative term.

The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.

I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
easily be restored to a "new" status.


When I saw the Unisaw at the Woodworkers show, I was a bit disappointed
that the rail the fence slid along was aluminum (square cross-section).

Is this evidence of cost-cutting? Worth noticing?

Bill

On 3/21/2012 3:53 PM, Jim Weisgram wrote:
[...snip...]
If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-H...ng-Knife/G0651
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3...ng-Knife/G0691

If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
would be a requirement at the very top of my list.

I don't own either, but there's been a lot of chatter on Lumberjocks
and other forums about these and other saws, so do a google search.
Generally the chatter has been very favorable for the Grizzly saws,
but the same can be said for most any real cabinet saw.

I don't get exactly why the G0651 is $2125 and the G0691 is $1425. The
shipping weight on the G091 is more than the G0651, so I doubt the
price difference is heavier trunnions or anything like that.

The more expensive green model comes with a substantial out feed table.
And it has a better supported right side table. Take another look.

On 3/21/2012 7:26 PM, Bill wrote:
Pat Barber wrote:
"Gold Standard" is a relative term.

The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.

I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
easily be restored to a "new" status.


When I saw the Unisaw at the Woodworkers show, I was a bit disappointed
that the rail the fence slid along was aluminum (square cross-section).

Is this evidence of cost-cutting? Worth noticing?

Bill

If you bought a Unisaw with a Unifence 20 years ago it came with an
aluminum front rail and fence. Not a cost cutter and may actually be
more expensive than the old tube steel.

On 3/21/2012 2:42 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
and the F-45 http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html

The F-45 is a real piece of art.

I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
price in her ear just to see the look on her face.

To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
one finger.

If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.



Check out the Laguna panel cutting saws. There is one video where the
owner of the company sits on top of the sliding feed table and it just
glides ever so smoothly out to the end IIRC.

On 3/21/2012 4:43 PM, Sonny wrote:
Not until the past few years have I paid much attention to everyone's
threads/discussions about the quality of the different cabinet saws,
as compared to past models and/or brands. I'm not in the market for
another one, but have wondered if my Unisaws are of the original
higher quality, as compared to subsequent "retooled" models.

I have a model 34-807 (made in 1992) and a model 34-761 (made in
1981). I would like to think they were made during the time the
quality was at their maximum. I don't recall ever looking to see if
there's a Made in USA tag on them. These have served me well and I
suspect they will last until I can no longer do woodwork.... 20 more
years of hobby work?

Sonny

I would say that you got the better ones.

On Mar 21, 1:53*pm, Steve Turner
wrote:
On 3/21/2012 10:50 AM, Max wrote:

So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what might
be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?

In the absence of the ubiquitous old Unisaw and PM66 that put both Delta and
Powermatic on the map, the field is certainly narrowed. *I personally wouldn't
consider buying either of the products they developed as replacements. *This
would seem to leave only the Jet Xacta saw as the sole product that looks
anything like the "legacy" tablesaws that we once considered "gold standards".
* However, people always seem to forget about General:

http://www.general.ca/site_general/g...350R_650R.html

I just wonder how long General can continue offering their top of the line
"Made in Canada" machines before they succumb to the same pressures as Delta
and Powermatic.

If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-H...le-Saw-with-Lo...

If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
reviews. *Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
would be a requirement at the very top of my list.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve: I own a G1023S which is an older cousin of:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3...le-Saw/G1023RL
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2012/Main/17

This machine is probably most similar to the G0651 you linked but not
quite the same. Mine looks pretty much identical to the G1023RL
(above links) except it is right tilt instead of left so overall
appearance is opposite. There also appears to be minor differences in
the cranks and switch but my saw is about 11 or 12 years old. One
thing I did notice is the 1023RL has a dedicated dust collection
enclosure around the blade; and now they are equipped with riving
knife. Both of these are real improvements. For a home shop mine has
had pretty serious use. In addition to hobby cabinets, rocking
horses, etc; we finished a basement in a previous home and built and
finished a new home since it was purchased. It is still as solid as a
rock. It looks like they are still installing the same Shop Fox
Classic fence which is a very nice and heavy duty fence.

I believe Grizzly still has a buyer referral service. If you call
them and tell then which tool you are interested in, they will put you
in contact with someone in your area who has purchased one. I used it
and the buyer had actually purchased two - one for himself and one for
his son-in law. The wood pattern shop of my old aerospace employer
also has several Grizzly machine tools. I would definitely recommend
the saw.

RonB

On Mar 21, 7:54*pm, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 3/21/2012 7:26 PM, Bill wrote:





Pat Barber wrote:
"Gold Standard" is a relative term.

The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.

I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
easily be restored to a "new" status.

When I saw the Unisaw at the Woodworkers show, I was a bit disappointed
that the rail the fence slid along was aluminum (square cross-section).

Is this evidence of cost-cutting? Worth noticing?

Bill

If you bought a Unisaw with a Unifence 20 years ago it came with an
aluminum front rail and fence. *Not a cost cutter and may actually be
more expensive than the old tube steel.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both my saws have the aluminum "square" (rectangle, actually) rail.
Have held up very well. The Unifence package came with the 1981 saw.
For the 1992 saw, I bought the newer fence package (not the Uni-T-
Fence) separate for, I think, about $350, which included the fence,
rail, and the side table frame/legs.... the side table's tabletop
surface did not come with this fence package.

The rail is pretty heavy, a lot heavier than I would have thought
aluminum would be, so it may not be typical (?) aluminum. I've
certainly never had reason to question its stability. There have been
a few times when I've moved my old saw by handling the end of the rail
(while attached to the side table). It was solid as a rock. I
wouldn't recommend moving a saw, that way, too often, though.

Sonny

In article ,
says...

[...snip...]
If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-H...ng-Knife/G0651
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3...ng-Knife/G0691

If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
would be a requirement at the very top of my list.

I don't own either, but there's been a lot of chatter on Lumberjocks
and other forums about these and other saws, so do a google search.
Generally the chatter has been very favorable for the Grizzly saws,
but the same can be said for most any real cabinet saw.

I don't get exactly why the G0651 is $2125 and the G0691 is $1425. The
shipping weight on the G091 is more than the G0651, so I doubt the
price difference is heavier trunnions or anything like that.

The riving knife on the G0651 has a quick release feature, the G0691
requires more fiddling to get it on/off.

Look at the catalog pages and you get more description and a somewhat
different story. According to the catalog pages the G0651 shipping
weight is 711 pounds vs 514 for the G0691.

Other differences. Looking at the pictures, the fences are clearly
different. Whether the difference is purely cosmetic or whether it has
a real effect on function I have no idea. The G0651 comes with two
extension tables, vs 1 for the 691, and the ones for the 651 look more
durable, with spreaders for the legs and a shelf underneath; the 651 has
a digital readout for bevel angle, and, most telling, there's an option
for a 5 HP 3-phase motor, which implies that it's designed to handle
same.

Oh, and the 651 is made in Taiwan--whether that means anything in terms
of quality I don't know but at least you can be sure it wasn't made by
slave labor.

Both of those saws are considered some of the better ones.

The 1981 is probably a more preferred year but there is
virtually no difference in a Unisaw built in 1939 to 1995.

They changed the fences and the hand wheel appearance but
the guts remained the same. The motors got more powerful
as the years went by.

There is still "many" Unisaw's built in the 1940's that are in
current use.

The 50's - 60's were considered the "golden years" of Delta
power tools by many people.

On 3/21/2012 2:43 PM, Sonny wrote:

I have a model 34-807 (made in 1992) and a model 34-761 (made in
1981). I would like to think they were made during the time the
quality was at their maximum. I don't recall ever looking to see if
there's a Made in USA tag on them.

On 3/21/2012 12:35 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/21/2012 9:05 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
Please tell me the Timber Wolf band saw blades is not being produced by
them, just distributed.
More than Likely only distributed. For several years now Delta has been
selling other brands, Beisemeyer, Osbourne...

Beisemeyer is not another brand, it is the Delta brand. They bought
Beisemeyer manufacturing about 20 years ago. A few years ago I bought a
Delta fence for my tsaw, and it is really just a Beisemeyer fence at a
much cheaper price, far as I can tell.

Most of my stationary tools are early 50's Rockwell Delta that I bought
used in '75. When I went to Rockwell for parts and stuff, one of the
old salesman told me they don't make them like they used to, and he
pointed out a ton of junky stuff on a new band saw that was the newer
model of mine. Looked similar from 20ft away, but he quickly showed me
where they turned them into junk. So they have been making ****ty stuff
for at least 37 years:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Interesting (and valuable) discourse but not much consensus.
I have the Festool TS75 so cutting panels is a cinch.
*IF* I were in the woodworking business some of the "highend" table saws
would certainly be appealing.
My *hobby* results in just enough profit to supply me with sufficient funds
to purchase those tools that might not be industrial grade but still high
quality.
If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level, what would be the
"Table Saw of Choice"?

Thanks for the dialogue.

Max

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:28:43 -0400, Jack wrote:

Most of my stationary tools are early 50's Rockwell Delta that I bought
used in '75. When I went to Rockwell for parts and stuff, one of the
old salesman told me they don't make them like they used to, and he
pointed out a ton of junky stuff on a new band saw that was the newer
model of mine. Looked similar from 20ft away, but he quickly showed me
where they turned them into junk. So they have been making ****ty stuff
for at least 37 years:-)

Actually, they haven't been making *anything* for quite some time.
Somebody else bought the name and has applied it to a line of "consumer
grade" (and that's being polite) tools.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw